The current state of Magic

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

Play Design Testing = Did you like how we've had tons of eternal playable in recent sets, and how sets have been awesome since we left the garbage can that was Theros? Well, screw you, because now we're going to make sure things are safe for Standard. I do not see a way in which this leads to less powerful and flexible effects. Kaladesh is going to join the pantheon of artifact sets with Urza (yes yes I know it was technically an enchantment-matters block but that was a stupid decision and I am going to ignore it) and Mirrodin, ushering us into a new era of Mercadian Masques and Kamigawa.

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I disagree here on a number of fronts.

1) Many of the problem cards in current or recent Standards haven't been particularly overbearing in Legacy or Vintage. I'm thinking of things like Felidar Guardian or Emrakul, the Promised End, that lead to broken interactions in formats with poor answers but aren't anywhere close to breaking through Eternal's power floor. Conversely, cards like Fatal Push are often fine for Standard because their power level scales with the degeneracy of the environment. Cards that are incredibly efficient and explicitly care about raw efficiency make the transition without making waves; similarly, cards like Ad Nauseam, which thrive in busted environments but do fuck all in fair ones, are also safe to print. In fact, I'd say your biggest risk would stem from another Mental Misstep - a card explicitly designed and pushed for a format they don't regularly test - and not from filtering options for Standard.

2) The new one-set block models gives them the ability to be experimental without having to wallow in their mistakes for multiple sets. If they decide to give us a "Meanwhile, on New Phyrexia..." set that turns out to be busted beyond belief, they're not obligated to keep pumping out cards for it in "New Phyrexia II: Small Set Boogaloo". The new model lets them take more calculated risks because it lets them hedge better, and that's good for Eternal formats. Additionally, the return of Core Sets lets them print powerful but non-specific answers that are difficult from a flavor, space, or story perspective to slot into main sets (like Pithing Needle), which gives them additional safety valves.

3) More active B&R List management can shake up Eternal formats without having to crutch on new printings. We just had this with the loss of Top and the dethronement of Miracles. With their move to more frequent B&R announcements, they have more opportunities to actively cultivate their formats. Whether that's a good thing is itself debatable, but it's an option.

In regards to the complaint that a core set would mean fewer new cards because it'd be half reprints, I'd like to point out that the current situation is two large sets, two small sets. The new one would be three large sets, one core set. Now, the small sets are about 2/3 the size of a large set, so under the current paradigm we effectively have 3.333 large sets worth of cards. If we count the core set as half of a set due to the reprints, that means under the new system we'd have... 3.5 large sets worth of cards. That's actually a small increase.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

They should do more "spark" flip 'walker cards. Those things were awesome.

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They seem to be doing something similar to this, but across multiple sets. People like Samut, Voice of Dissent becoming a 'walker in HOU.

I'm sort-of-okay with these changes, but the execution is key. I'd be okay with 175/200-card sets each time. So smaller sets, but with a slightly more compressed manner than currently.

TS-Lor-CSnap was one of the best Standard formats ever and interestingly the largest one ever.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

TS-Lor-CSnap was one of the best Standard formats ever and interestingly the largest one ever.

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I liked Rav/CS/TS better by miles.

Lorwyn was the beginning of the end.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

In regards to the complaint that a core set would mean fewer new cards because it'd be half reprints, I'd like to point out that the current situation is two large sets, two small sets. The new one would be three large sets, one core set. Now, the small sets are about 2/3 the size of a large set, so under the current paradigm we effectively have 3.333 large sets worth of cards. If we count the core set as half of a set due to the reprints, that means under the new system we'd have... 3.5 large sets worth of cards. That's actually a small increase.

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How dare you use math on us.

One aspect of this that I like is how it might help with some card availability, where good cards in small sets were opened less since the set was drafted less, both in duration and quantity.

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Originally Posted by Barook

You got it all wrong.

MTGO's economy is linked with its Paper counterpart via Standard set redemption, since it's the way how people can turn online collections into actual hard $. When WotC increased the redemption fee from 5$ to 25$ per complete set, the price of a completed set pretty much fell by the same amount. Once the day comes where WotC completely gets rid of redemption, all hell will break lose - but that's a story for another day.

Long story short, if the Paper set isn't worth much, then the Online version is bound to be worthless as well.

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Thanks for this. I did not understand how that worked.

Regarding announcement, I do want to give some credit for the message delivery. It was very public relations 101. Say why you are making changes, admit mistakes, take credit for what worked, and say how it will be better. One criticism though is they did really want you to know they are listening. I'm always a little cautious when someone repeatably says " hey look how much we are paying attention and listening!" - comes off like you are compensating with words for lack of actions.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

In regards to the complaint that a core set would mean fewer new cards because it'd be half reprints, I'd like to point out that the current situation is two large sets, two small sets. The new one would be three large sets, one core set. Now, the small sets are about 2/3 the size of a large set, so under the current paradigm we effectively have 3.333 large sets worth of cards. If we count the core set as half of a set due to the reprints, that means under the new system we'd have... 3.5 large sets worth of cards. That's actually a small increase.

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I guess so. I wonder which way leads to more "filler" vanilla fluff for Standard, though: fewer, larger sets, or more, smaller sets. I also am skeptical of how interesting a core set can be, but I guess they did a fine job with Origins (Strictly Worse Eternal Staples - The Set).

I guess we'll wait and see how they do this thing.

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Originally Posted by H

How dare you use math on us.

One aspect of this that I like is how it might help with some card availability, where good cards in small sets were opened less since the set was drafted less, both in duration and quantity.

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Winter/spring sets still seem to rotate faster than autumn sets if I read the graphic from the article right.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/images...8_Releases.gif

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Originally Posted by Barook

Winter/spring sets still seem to rotate faster than autumn sets if I read the graphic from the article right.

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Hmm, but they should all be drafted for the same amount of time though, right?

That gif just confuses the shit out of me, honestly. I'm not really understanding the rotation period, but it shouldn't really matter in relation to how long each set is the "new set" and so how long it gets opened for the purposes of drafting. Of course it does pertain to opening for value, but even so that should remain the same (I think).

Magic Digital Next Update

MTG MMO we already know about & Duels is dead and gets a sequel (probably the Hearthstone-like thing we got a screenshot of). Basically:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...96/788/4fc.jpg

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Originally Posted by H

Hmm, but they should all be drafted for the same amount of time though, right?

That gif just confuses the shit out of me, honestly. I'm not really understanding the rotation period, but it shouldn't really matter in relation to how long each set is the "new set" and so how long it gets opened for the purposes of drafting. Of course it does pertain to opening for value, but even so that should remain the same (I think).

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It's how long is a set legal. An autumn set is around for full two years, the sets inbetween for less time, similiar to how it worked before WotC changed to the 2-block model.

So.. yeah. Got back in because they were doing a real cycling block again.. but you can't play a cycling deck anymore, even in standard, because they didn't reprint Slide or Rift or anything playable because.. reasons. Today's B&R did nothing to address the real problems I've seen with the format and just, their entire design direction right now. Don't even get me started on what a mess digital is. Right now it's Eternal: Play Brainstorm. Modern: Play garbage in a big format with zero answers, so it's either speed kill or ramp/cheat to stupidity. Standard: Play broken card of the week until it gets banned then move to the next one, because answers=LOL.

Gonna sell out again and never look back I think. New World Order has been an unmitigated disaster, it fueled growth for awhile, but all them chickens coming home now.

What the shit? At least finish the fucking block, Wizards! Duels might be the best thing they're making right now, and now they're going to shit all over whatever consumer confidence they established with it by just abruptly shutting it down. Guarantee there won't be any way to transition your collection over either.

Aetherworks Marvel just got banned. What's Next?

Did you have to buy packs/cards in Duels? My guess is the client isn't going anywhere, but they'll eventually shut the server down and provide no updates.

I imagine they'll have a couple more escapees or broken cards in the next set or two depending on when they went to the printers, but they'll have constant generic answers in Standard through Core sets. Next year. So likely a few more bannings.

Pithing Needle will probably be in every core set from now until Wizards decides to nix Core sets again, since that's the most efficient answer to whatever Standard-broken Planeswalker or pushed mechanic permanent they make is.

I'm a little disappointed by the new Single Set direction, only because that will accelerate how fast they abandon a cool mechanic or theme. Something like Energy or Landfall will get its 15 or so cards in the set, and then nothing for 3 years when they do Return to the Zendikar Timeshare 2020 with MegaLandfall.

Edit: They mention they're not having a B&R announcement until August, after Pro Tour Hour of Dry Season, so are they skipping an announcement?

I'm ambivalent about all these changes. I don't think the set rotation schedule is entirely to blame.

They put tons of restrictions on their own game design (no prison elements, no good removal, no complexity at common/uncommon thus making the rares and mythics superpowered effect smorgasbords) and then end up in the same position they would be if they made an OP block like mirrodin/urza/original Zen and have to ban a ton of stuff.

If anything, this has been worse than the previous standard bannings because the sets are so underpowered that every time they whack one mole another one pops up because of the lack of safety valves. Can't wait to see what's 40% of standard over the next few weeks.

They make way too many decisions based on what the people who buy their cards at Target think and not enough based on what people who go to LGSes and buy singles and support the tournament network think. You can't design away all the feel-bads and then there's feel-worse when cards get banned.

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Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat

Aetherworks Marvel just got banned. What's Next?

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Merquadian Masques, Kamigawa, or Theros, I imagine. I'm not optimistic.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

So.. yeah. Got back in because they were doing a real cycling block again.. but you can't play a cycling deck anymore, even in standard, because they didn't reprint Slide or Rift or anything playable because.. reasons. Today's B&R did nothing to address the real problems I've seen with the format and just, their entire design direction right now. Don't even get me started on what a mess digital is. Right now it's Eternal: Play Brainstorm. Modern: Play garbage in a big format with zero answers, so it's either speed kill or ramp/cheat to stupidity. Standard: Play broken card of the week until it gets banned then move to the next one, because answers=LOL.

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See what you have to do is play the Best Format: Vintage.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I'm ambivalent about all these changes. I don't think the set rotation schedule is entirely to blame.

They put tons of restrictions on their own game design (no prison elements, no good removal, no complexity at common/uncommon thus making the rares and mythics superpowered effect smorgasbords) and then end up in the same position they would be if they made an OP block like mirrodin/urza/original Zen and have to ban a ton of stuff.

If anything, this has been worse than the previous standard bannings because the sets are so underpowered that every time they whack one mole another one pops up because of the lack of safety valves. Can't wait to see what's 40% of standard over the next few weeks.

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One of the more interesting things about TS-Lor was that good number of good decks ran really heavily on uncommons. Elf Rock being a particularily key example, let alone sillier decks like Elfball. That block had tons of interesting stuff at lower rarities. I'd like to see cycles like Teachings/Grudge/Blink/Soot/Thrill and just solid uncommons. We got stuff like Kitchen Finks, Ashenmoor Gouger, Imperious Perfect, Flame Javelin, Firespout, Harmonize, Careful Consideration, Heritage Druid, Shriekmaw, Sage's Dousing. Hell, common had a ton of real power: Rune Snag, Teachings cycle, Skred, Into the North, Incinerate, Gleeful Sabotage, Wall of Roots, Search for Tomorrow, Think Twice, Spellstutter Sprite, Mulldrifter, just tons of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I'm a little disappointed by the new Single Set direction, only because that will accelerate how fast they abandon a cool mechanic or theme. Something like Energy or Landfall will get its 15 or so cards in the set, and then nothing for 3 years when they do Return to the Zendikar Timeshare 2020 with MegaLandfall.

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It's going to make certain mechanics even more parasitic, that's for sure. It's also a shame that some really cool mechanics (e.g. colorless mana) will get thrown under the bus due change for the sake of change. I'm sceptical that this change isn't going to cause new massive problems.

Now we have Aether Revolt, where the set is so underpowered that Fatal Push ($8-9) is the most 3rd most expensive card in the set.

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Originally Posted by H

That gif just confuses the shit out of me, honestly. I'm not really understanding the rotation period.

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Standard rotates once per year, one year (i.e. 4 sets) at a time. When the fall set of 2017 (Ixalan) is released, all sets older than the fall set of 2016 (BFZ, OGW, SOI, EMN) rotate out of Standard. When the fall set of 2018 is released ("Soup"), all sets older than the fall set of 2017 (KLD, AER, AKH, HOU) will rotate. And so on.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Now we have Aether Revolt, where the set is so underpowered that Fatal Push ($8-9) is the most 3rd most expensive card in the set.

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The set with energy is underpowered; say what you will but R&D have nailed irony.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Did you have to buy packs/cards in Duels? My guess is the client isn't going anywhere, but they'll eventually shut the server down and provide no updates.

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You don't have to, you can grind the in-game currency pretty easily. The packs are also semi-random, you're guaranteed to get a whole set in a certain number of packs, and never more than the playable amount of a single card. So if you really wanted to have a set or even certain cards the day it came out, you could spend something like $30-$40 and be done with it.

Maybe part of the issue is that they weren't monetizing it enough?

The banning of Aetherworks Marvel confuses me greatly. Yes, the deck is dominant. But only about as much as Monoblack Devotion or Abzan were (the latter rested comfortably around 30% for about one and a half years). The especially odd thing is that a big reason for the deck's power is Ulamog, who's due to rotate out in a few months. Why not just tough it out and let rotation take care of it?

EDIT: Upon reflection, it's possible they had concerns regarding incoming cards interacting with Aetherworks Marvel like did Ulamog, which I guess makes some sense if true. I'm a little surprised that such a thing isn't mentioned in the banning announcement, though... they use a lot of words to talk about it, but don't answer that obvious question.

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

So.. yeah. Got back in because they were doing a real cycling block again.. but you can't play a cycling deck anymore, even in standard, because they didn't reprint Slide or Rift or anything playable because.. reasons.

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I'll be fair and say that there might be better cards enabling cycling in Hour of Devastation.

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Don't even get me started on what a mess digital is. Right now it's Eternal: Play Brainstorm. Modern: Play garbage in a big format with zero answerx, so it's either speed kill or ramp/cheat to stupidity. Standard: Play broken card of the week until it gets banned then move to the next one, because answers=LOL.

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Modern doesn't have zero answers; in fact, it's got some some great answers. Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, and Fatal Push (with fetchlands) might not be at the level of Force of Will or Swords to Plowshares but they're still pretty great answer cards. The problem is lack of variety. Path to Exile is an excellent removal card, possibly the second best ever printed after Swords to Plowshares... but White has basically nothing else going on in the format, so the card is underutilized. Thoughtseize and Fatal Push are great, but aren't of any use to you if you're not in Black. In contrast, Blue gets stuck with Mana Leak as its best counterspell. What the format needs are better White cards (Stoneforge Mystic is looking more and more like a good unban) so you can get more usage out of Path to Exile, and a counterspell better than freaking Mana Leak. That would better diversify answers so they can be played in a greater variety of decks.

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Gonna sell out again and never look back I think. New World Order has been an unmitigated disaster, it fueled growth for awhile, but all them chickens coming home now.

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New World Order was just the idea that new players get scared off by complicated or confusing cards, so all the complicated or confusing cards should be put in higher rarities so they don't see them as often. That's literally all it was. It had nothing to do with general design of cards. One can perhaps blame New World Order for higher prices (because cards that are confusing or complicated tend to be good cards, which results in higher rare/mythic rare proliferation), but that's really it.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

Now we have Aether Revolt, where the set is so underpowered that Fatal Push ($8-9) is the most 3rd most expensive card in the set.

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I don't know if it's a lack of power so much as a lack of confidence. All these bannings in Standard are making people more leery of investing in the format, which means lower prices.

Fatal Push, on the other hand, is a Modern staple. People have a lot more confidence in investing in that format, so it manages to retain value because so much of its demand doesn't come from Standard play.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

New World Order was just the idea that new players get scared off by complicated or confusing cards, so all the complicated or confusing cards should be put in higher rarities so they don't see them as often. That's literally all it was. It had nothing to do with general design of cards. One can perhaps blame New World Order for higher prices (because cards that are confusing or complicated tend to be good cards, which results in higher rare/mythic rare proliferation), but that's really it.

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NWO came with Shards, if memory serves, and at least to me Alara block was the first truly different one - Lorwyn was a beginning of something new, to be sure, but it still straddled a line.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

NWO came with Shards, if memory serves, and at least to me Alara block was the first truly different one - Lorwyn was a beginning of something new, to be sure, but it still straddled a line.

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But as noted, "New World Order" had nothing to do with card design, set design, or anything like that. It was entirely about what rarity cards were given based on their perceived complexity.

Granted, giving that a name as dramatic as "New World Order" (which I do think is a stupid name) does make it sound like it was a lot more than it was, which may be why players keep referring to it as whatever they don't like about modern design, but all New World Order was about was adjustment of rarity.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

The banning of Aetherworks Marvel confuses me greatly. Yes, the deck is dominant. But only about as much as Monoblack Devotion or Abzan were (the latter rested comfortably around 30% for about one and a half years). The especially odd thing is that a big reason for the deck's power is Ulamog, who's due to rotate out in a few months. Why not just tough it out and let rotation take care of it?

EDIT: Upon reflection, it's possible they had concerns regarding incoming cards interacting with Aetherworks Marvel like did Ulamog, which I guess makes some sense if true. I'm a little surprised that such a thing isn't mentioned in the banning announcement, though... they use a lot of words to talk about it, but don't answer that obvious question.

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Well, there's that new Nicol Bolas guy...he seems a little good on Turn 4.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

...
Granted, giving that a name as dramatic as "New World Order" (which I do think is a stupid name) does make it sound like it was a lot more than it was, which may be why players keep referring to it as whatever they don't like about modern design, but all New World Order was about was adjustment of rarity.

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I think that part of the issue is that the phrase "new world order" already means something. So we have "New World Order" which is the rarity/complexity of cards thing, and we have "new world order" which is the shift to higher efficiency threats in the form of spell-creatures and planeswalkers and slower enablers and answers (or whatever else it could mean in context).

New World Order is the flagship of the (unnamed) design philosophy which puts pleasing newbies above satisfying experienced players.

Can we please drop this pedantic bull shit of correcting everybody who uses the term more loosely? What purpose is that supposed to serve?

New set stuff

The more or less important stuff
- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)
- Masters25 next year
- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)
- Return to Dominaria April 2018 (given their track record with Return sets, I don't have my hopes up)

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Originally Posted by Barook

- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)

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If there's a silver bordered token plus a full art basic in every set, I think it will sell.

Nice that they're finally doing a fourth Unset, though. Hope it's called 'Unzipped'.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

If there's a silver bordered token plus a full art basic in every set, I think it will sell.

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Full basic art wasn't enough the last times. This is going to fail horribly.

At least there's hope Maro gets hit by the backlash since the third Un-set has been his pet project for years. If it was greenlight, then it was because of him nagging for a while now.

Edit: There are only 4 months between Iconic Masters and 25th Anniversary Masters. What the hell are they going to reprint as chase cards at this pace?

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Originally Posted by Barook

Full basic art wasn't enough the last times. This is going to fail horribly.

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Last time they didn't give us tokens. The combination might be just enough push it - especially if the tokens are double-sided and they give us things that are used in popular constructed decks.

Anyway, Legacy players are probably not the target. This is for the kids who missed the last three Unsets.

Regarding other news, it sure would be sweet if they would break tradition and print a few new cards for the duel decks.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Nice that they're finally doing a fourth Unset, though. Hope it's called 'Unzipped'.

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It's the third un-set, and it's called 'Unstable'.

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Originally Posted by Barook

- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)

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Selling the shit out of these at the GP then, hope some modern deck is using them

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Originally Posted by sadface

It's the third un-set, and it's called 'Unstable'.

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1. Unlimited
2. Unglued
3. Unhinged
4. Unstable

Get's 'em every time!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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Number of Cards: 216-ish

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LMAO! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Barook

New set stuff

The more or less important stuff
- FTV: Transform, aka flipcards (aka we reprint Baby Jace - yawn)
- Masters25 next year
- new Unset in December (who the fuck buys this shit?)
- Return to Dominaria April 2018 (given their track record with Return sets, I don't have my hopes up)

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Garfield has been confirmed to be on the design team for dominaria so that's cool at least.

The only way this could realistically sell is they included non-tournament legal, silver-bordered Reserve List cards for the casual Commander crowd who don't care about borders/legality.

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Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE

Garfield has been confirmed to be on the design team for dominaria so that's cool at least.

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This actually gets my hopes up. Garfield knows his shit, as he has proven when he came back for the original Ravnica and Innistrad sets.

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Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE

Garfield has been confirmed to be on the design team for dominaria so that's cool at least.

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Best news yet.
I wasn't even excited until now. :)