Printable View
Pioneer and Historic likely can't coexist, so it's easier to pick one, and Historic it is. (Doesn't mean they won't add cards that are incidentally Pioneer-legal, but Pioneer also has the burden of the paper format holding it back. Doesn't help that Pioneer is effectively dead right now.)Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
What is the evidence for thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I've been enjoying Historic to the extent that I don't hate it just long enough to finish my daily $$$ quests and then quit immediately after. Like most magic in the modern age, it's about finding a deck you enjoy playing and that's it. Can you play a deck you like? (y/n) Then you will/won't stomach playing Arena.
I think the implication is once Pioneer is on MTGA they cannot coexist. In any event, I disagree with that notion. Historic can be a curated quasi-Legacy format and Pioneer and be the eternal "FIRE" format. For obvious reasons, these could be completely different meta games.Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Yes that's what they're saying but there's no evidence of it being true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Magic historically has shown that the game can really only handle one high-prestige non-rotating format, and right now that's Historic.
Doesn't help that Pioneer is basically dead right now.
That isn't true and right now there two of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Commander and modern.
Modern and Legacy coexisted for quite some time. Pioneer and Historic can easily become the MTGA version i.e. two non-rotating formats one being cards of the current design era and the other being the entire game's history.
And here's more evidence they are viewing Historic as the Legacy of MTGA:
https://i.imgur.com/jzqX10N.png
As an aside, this article was already taken down supposedly because it was meant to be published on Monday.
https://twitter.com/HipstersMTG/stat...49764866641921
So Paper is still far more profitable than Digital. So no need to fear that WotC is going to abandon Paper for for Digital anytime soon.
There's actually so much in that 1 tweet, it's insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
What kind of R&D do they need for a port to digital?
How is that more expensive then the R&D for paper/design in general?
What kind of clowns is running this whole operation?
Also:
https://mtgazone.com/jumpstart-historic-horizons/
They are going to introduce all the crap nobody likes and can't be done in paper.
Congratz clowns of the coast.
Ah those sweet sweet Microprose memories. I'm ready to cast Goblin Polka Band again!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
All three of those mechanics are pretty cool. However, other than seek, I believe they could have effectively been paper mechanics as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
Well, Perpetually tracking through zones would be impossible. A creature given Perpetual Deathtouch would still have it after a Terminus. Never knowing which one it is that you drew afterwards would be a challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Paper is for Commander (prices even for Standard-legal cards are primarily influenced by Commander now, which is a sign) and Digital is for everything else, especially competitive Magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I agree. It's not that it could be executed exactly the same in paper but most of the time it would effectively be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
The only thing that can't be done effectively is do "random" this but who wants random anyway?
You would need a unique to the ability sticker that you could put on the front of the sleeve.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
By getting the first card in your library that does satisfy all criterias. Still abusable with something like brainstorm, so maybe starting bottom which is harder to do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
http://mythicspoiler.com/jhh/cards/facelessagent.jpg
A shame this is an online only card. I would try that in Eldrazi Stompy otherwise since it works with Eye/Temple and generates card advantage. It could also grind value in combination with Displacer.
But since Seek pulls a random card that qualifies from the library without shuffling, we won't see it in Paper.
Seems like it's not revealed either, nor can you use "prevalent" in paper and expect anyone to believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
At least now we have an answer to the pioneer vs historic debate.
Historic gets the literal random garbage they pull out of their clown wigs.
Ironic given the names of the format.
Because it's the computer doing it and not a person there's no need to reveal.
As long as the effects are reasonable then I don't care if they need a computer to be executed or not. If it strays into the realm of effects like "bad Hearthstone RNG" where early game rng dictates the next several turns of board state then there is a real problem.
Y'know, if you want to put mechanics into a physical AND digital game (mechanics that won't work in one of those versions), you can always design a new game.
Meh, formats are an okay delimiter for these cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Historic was always intended to be Arena's clown fiesta format, as long as you can only play these cards in "non-serious" formats then it's not a big deal I don't think.
That's literally what Davriel's -2 ability is.Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumiBand
This feels like another cash grab at the expense of the game. I had hoped that Arena and paper would move towards unification as "remastered" sets are introduced. Jumpstart: Historic Horizons is a fork in that road so, short of banning the digital mechanic cards, that'll never happen.
There is *some* randomness possible with his second ability but that is not what I am talking about. I really mean a very specific kind of RNG that a lot of HS players really despise and have been pretty vocal about.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
It doesn't work the same way in Magic really, because the blocker generally has control over what blocks where, so it's hard to do a strict 1-to-1 comparison. The classic examples are things like early Knife Juggler or Flame Juggler using its ability to decide the board state. Since attackers choose blockers in Hearthstone, a well-placed Knife from either of those minions put the other player on the back foot for most of the early game because it means that you're either 2-for-1ing them early or trading in where you "shouldn't".
Davriel doesn't do this at all, it's a turn 4 play that has all of two random effects to choose from - return two random creatures from grave to hand and perpetually buff them, OR return a random creature with the highest CMC from your grave to the field. It has the word "random" in it but it isn't the kind of bad RNG I was referring to.
My .02$, I think we need to understand that Arena is supposed to be fun, randomness seems to be considered fun, crazy cards seem to be fun, etc. The last thing they want is a series of miracles styles decks fighting each other in a sea of boredom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
The reason arena is not fun is the same why most more recent formats are not fun: They printed too many overpowered cards in the last years.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
They've also done a shit job in regulating their formats with banning cards too late for ez$$$.
While magic has an intrinsic random characteristic (your lib/draw) most spells have a deterministic effect or at least one that can be skewed by deck building.
This keeps the probable board states in a reasonable and predictable set.
"True randomness" (effect literally does something random) gives both player little influence on the outcome.
While this seems more marketed to casuals who are "more likely to like randomness", I would doubt that that works.
Even casual players hate losing to an opponent who's just better at rolling dice instead of being a better player.
The only group I can see enjoying these mechanics are people, who secretly know that they are bad players but revel in the idea of taking games off better players by randoming them to death.
Another important point not yet brought up is the rules.
With a disparity between paper and digital maintaining a common rule set is going to be a nightmare.
You'd either have to make everything consistent even though cards are on different platforms or rules have to be updated every time cards are ported to arena.
Considering the quality of rules and wordings we got in the last years, I'm not looking forward to either.
It's probably worth noting that the kind of RNG in Davriel at least is super easy to mitigate. "Return a random creature with the highest mana value" is dead simple to fix and if you were playing that card as a Spike then you already know how you'd attempt to maximize your returns. Returning two random creatures to your hand is first of all already an effect in the game on like two jank Innistrad green cards, so that's not even a new effect, the perpetual buff is definitely digital-only though.
If any of these effects revealed thus far are going to lead to the most pissing and moaning, it's going to be Tome of the Infinite. Only two things can happen off a card like this; the Tome player wins thanks to the effects they get and the opponent feels bad, or the Tome player gets a handful of junk that does nothing and they feel bad. Like, you're going to see games where the Tome player draws multiple Lightning Bolts and wins the game by going face, or because they staved off lethal thanks to drawing a Fog and turned the game around, and the opponent will say "I couldn't have played around that, fuck that card and fuck this game" and they'll be totally right.
You can literally play Momir:Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumiBand
https://mythicspoiler.com/jhh/cards/...rousgrowth.jpg
There's a mitigating factor, which is that Wizards already effectively does this by splitting the legal card pool into different formats both in paper and digital MtG. The trouble is that this set marks a sea change in the company's approach to new printings and the relationship between the two media. Rather than maintain cohesion, they'd rather print competing products. (I really shouldn't be surprised, I guess. Over the last two years Wizards has pretty much free-associated its product lineup.) Twenty-five years of failure to address the RL combined with digi-only "printings" that aren't complemented by paper-only printings makes it pretty clear which medium the company wants to maintain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
I don't play MTGO. I don't play Arena. I play the game my friend showed me in 1998. I play that game because I like that game; if they want me to play vidya instead, I'd rather play Total Annihilation, which remains unsurpassed.
If you want a game to be a different game, design a new game. It's not like it's Wizards of the Coast's job, or anything. They keep printing more and more elaborately useless cards. They print those cards on ass-paper nowadays. They ban cards whenever they see play for more than a weekend. Now, they're splitting cards between distinct and mutually exclusive platforms. I'm going to keep being That Guy and reiterate that the templating on Forgotten Realms: the Forgetting is slow-roasted festering dogshit. All these things show complete ignorance of lessons they claim they learned between 1993 and 2001.
I still maintain that arena should have been anything else then a port of paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
The unique thing about magic is the many points of interactions you can take which translates horrible to digital.
They even killed of their decently successful line of duels of the pws for this.
Had it been something that just uses the magic IP and is decently related enough it would have probally fared better.
Maybe they concluded from the mtg:Tactics (anyone remember that lol?) stillbirth that it only works if it's paper but in digital.
I suppose the suits thought that the brand alone would carry it, which seems to be a fair assessment, but the question seems to be for how long.
If they move closer to Hearthstone, then why not play that (excluding Blizzard being a huge dumpster fire atm)?
Post covid the competition between paper and digital will also be a huge issue.
Why should you spend Friday nights in usually overcrowded rooms with people with dubious hygiene to play standard if you can do that any day of the week any time?
For people who want to play competitive, there's little reason to go to an LGS anymore.
Then the casual scene has to support their LGS completely because they also need the LGS.
Fragmentizing the community even further doesn't seem like a smart move.
There's a variety of reasons why they will likely push competitive play toward digital; a primary reason being that its infinitely easier to watch a digital match as compared to a paper match.
I really think this will be less problematic than Tome, if only because Tome draws (conjures) cards while Pool here requires a card, and also, the whiff rate is probably way higher with Pool? Unless the random pool of creatures is known and curated to behave at a certain power level (Hearthstone does this, for better or for worse) then I'd say the Pool player is far less likely to profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
Whiff rates and stolen games aside though these kinds of cards are generally terrible for the players because they always just leave someone feeling like they're on the wrong side of RNG and that their choices didn't matter. Like when someone loses because they're at 7 and their mono-green opponent gets (for example) Blistering Firecat off of Pool, that's just a stupid way to lose and there was probably nothing they could have done about that, especially in a Best of 1 game. It's random of a whole different order than luck-of-the-draw and it always feels bad for one player.
Momir with actual cards rather than basic lands is interesting, although I am pretty sure that the appeal is for Momir Basic.
(BTW, Island is historically the worst basic in the format.)
Looks like 100-card Historic Brawl is coming to Arena. So basically "we have EDH at home".
Also, lulz, since Perpetual effects are bad in a format where you're meant to have access to your commander, cards with perpetual effects are being monitored and cards with Davriel's name on them are already b&. Good.
I still think formats as delimiters for "only online" effects are fine and if they are smart enough to keep the stupidest ones out of formats that they just roflstomp, great. Tome of the Infinite is still gonna piss people off though, bet
One of the true things about these "Arena only" cards is that since there is no physical medium to consider, they will all almost certainly be subject to errata/nerfing/buffing. I foresee this to be the power level moderation of choice with whatever cards they introduce in this way.
Probably wouldn't have noticed it earlier if a friend hadn't told me:
You can't search for cards from MH2 unless by name/text since it's not listed as expansion nor are the cards listed under the new jumpstart.
The interface just gets worse with every 15GB update.
It's also absolute clown shoes to introduce perpetual effects just after Historic Brawl, just to ban some of them and probably more later.
But Drannith Magistrate is too much.
How can anyone be expected to deal with a 2 mana 1/3?
It's double funny since they haven't even cared about the arena only formats since forever or there would be many more cards banned.
If Historic turns shit again and none of the Brawl formats are enjoyable in any form, I'm probably uninstalling.
Still cannot understand this, but the other card game is the same so I guess it's a unity thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoid
I think in this case it's general incompetence.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
It seems like at least the desktop version buffers almost everything on startup which takes forever and requires that you have everything on disk.
Then they add all the stupid graphic effects over everything.
To me the also seem to have an issue with separating front-end from back-end.
For the longest time a new FNM game mode or shop change required an update instead of being a back-end thing.
Quality programming at it's finest.