[Deck] UWb Fish

I have been playing with negator for quite a long time now, but not in fish build but with mother of runes as well, 2 negators is a good choice as when I ran it in w/b aggro decks, I had discard and 4 mothers protecting its ass.

Tombstalker does come down quite fast when I tested him, over negator. fish always wants a big beater as its the only thing that really makes fish weak, its lack of real threats.

On the side note I was wondering if hoofprints of the stag was ever tested in this kind of build?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alebronwebb

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

I am not going to say Jitte is bad at all, I just think Sword of F&I is better in this deck.

EDIT: I really going to have to try Tombstalker. It does come down faster than Avenger and helps vs. grveyard decks. It is also a nice back-up plan with Negator. I completly understand people reluctance on running Negator, I haven't had trouble with him so I have left him in. There are a lot of reasons not to run Negator, but there really isn't a better beater for UWB at the moment (come on Shadowmoor, give us some love).

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RE: Tombstalker for Avenger... I think SA is better in a deck w/ Jitte, being able to get in there for 7, and then block pretty much anything coming back at you. SoFI makes her worse imo, and seems really important in protecting your Negator (you all have bigger nuts than i do for playing that guy).

What do you board the Duress in against? I'm assuming control/combo, but 7 discard effects seems like a lot.

I think cutting Negator to two is the correct choice, making it easier to protect him. Regarding threats, I think Raharu's and my list are looking better than "old" fish since we can stand up to aggro.

I've never tested Hoofprints, but I think it could be a win-more in the more aggro build.

Yeah, I am thinking that I am going to take out Avenger for Tombstalker.
At Duress, yes control/combo. It probably should be Orim's Chant or something but I don't have any at the moment.

This might be noobyness on my part but I don't see how SOFI makes Avenger worse, you still get 7 in and card draw. Jitte is more flexible though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alebronwebb

I think cutting Negator to two is the correct choice, making it easier to protect him. Regarding threats, I think Raharu's and my list are looking better than "old" fish since we can stand up to aggro.
I've never tested Hoofprints, but I think it could be a win-more in the more aggro build.
Yeah, I am thinking that I am going to take out Avenger for Tombstalker.
At Duress, yes control/combo. It probably should be Orim's Chant or something but I don't have any at the moment.
This might be noobyness on my part but I don't see how SOFI makes Avenger worse, you still get 7 in and card draw. Jitte is more flexible though.

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I completely agree about Hoofprints. I'd rather play Jotun Grunt in that slot, being able to eat yards, and dodge Pithing Needle (which is an auto-board against Fish).
I guess I was referring how you can accumulate more counters on the Jitte using SA as a blocker. Attacking into a SA w/ a Jitte seems worse than attacking into SA w/ a SoFI.
I'd recommend meddling mage or even stifle in the place of duress against combo, and I'm always a huge fan of Engineered Explosives (playable against pretty much everything).

I've vaguely considered Hoofprints of the Stag, and while I'll conceede that they might be win-more/ unutilitarian in Hanni Fish/ 'Gator Fish, in a more controling deck they could be quite decent. With a creature/ win-condition base like this:

Hoofprints of the Stag x3
Tombstalker x3
S'moar win x??

In a build like this, I would replace Confidant with Phyrexian Arena because Confidant's effect doesn't charge Hoofprints, and without Mother or Runes, you have to use hard-counters and CounterTop activations to protect a now sub-par envestment (no equipment, all the removal now targets him). Some board sweep would be in order, and Propaganda could/ shuld be maindecked with regards to the local metagame. I'll mull over a list and get back to you all at a later date.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alebronwebb

Alright here's my current build (I believe my last list was on page 19 or so):

Lands 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Swamp

Creatures 12
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Serra Avenger

Other 30
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB
3 Extirpate
3 Vindicate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 Propaganda/Enginnered Plague

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With only 12 creatures, and 4 of them being MoR, wouldn't it be too little creatures to effectively play SoFI? Can the SoFI be taken out for something else?

I was testing a trinket fish list a little while back and was working realy well for me.

4 Trinket Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Engineered Plauge
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Leyline of the void
2 Tividars crusade
1 Tormod's crypt

The 6 goblins hate would probably help out in the post SHA metagame as with vexing shusher and bloodmark mentor goblins will become more popular and more problematic.

Actually i like Fish alot and since i built Uwb Landstill i have all the cards for this deck. So here´s the list I´m testing with:

// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [LRW] Swamp (1)
1 [LRW] Plains (1)
2 [LRW] Island (1)
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
1 [ON] Smother
4 [NE] Daze
3 [LOR] Ponder

Bitterblossom is THE card. It pwns every NQG and even Landstill will always loose to it if they don´t get EE/Deed and counter my stifle. Anyway I don´t have much experience with this so maybe you can give me a little help?
I play only 5 duals because fetchies are more important and i want to win against Blood Moon. 3 Swords 1 Smother is because of MM. Suggestions?

So has anyone had any success with Bitterblossom?

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins

4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare / Thoughtseize

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Bitterblossom

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 EE
1 Meekstone

SB
4 Engineered Plague
3 Vindicate
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize / Spell Snare

Something that could be promising.

I really like that list Jak... however, I think I would prolly want to run more than 1 of the stone, as it seems to be a pretty important piece in the deck...

I think that it would be cool to swarm with tokens, while shutting off their men as well... the control MU looks piss poor however.

I was wondering if Bitterblossom doesn't hurt too much beside Fetch, FoW, Thoughtseize???

I replaced Thoughtseize by Duress because it was too painful. And StpS can get rid of nasty creatures if Duress fails.

I run a very different version of the lists before so maybe that's the reason.

4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Duress
3 Stifle

2 Engineerd Explosives
1 Sensei Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod’s Crypt/


4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
3 Islands
2 Plains
2 Swamp



SB
1 Stifle
4 Smother
2 Eng Explosives
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing needle
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Jitte


Trinket Mage is a vey powerful creature that's gives the deck a versatile edge. Some people say that Vindicate is too slow but it saved me a lot of times.

Has anyone considered Ensnare in a more agro-oriented version of the deck?

Also, I see a startling lack of large beaters/ strong win conditions in the newer versions of the deck, which is troubling. Fish doesn't have sufficent methods of consistantly removing roadblocks such as Tarmogoyf, or even smaller threats, so Grunt and the smaller creatures can seal the deal, which seems as though it would be a very significant problem.

what do you guys think about adding the counter/top engine to this kind of deck? I run it in UW fish and it's pretty decent, would we be able to fit it into 3 colour?

Let the randomness end:
//17 Lands - 4 Basic
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

//Autoincludes
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

//Rest
2 Vindicate

i like that list
but i'm thinking

-2 vindicates
+2 serra avenger

Grunt? Seriously? The origional deck had less permanents and even then it had a problem keeping it on the table for a relevant amount of time and elected to only run three, and now that you've taken out a significant number of non-perm spells you're going to run 4 Grunts? I think not. I presume I would be able to get behind Grunt in this build if there were other relevant threats or if you could show me how grunt is actually playable, but considering that I see no evidence of either in this deck whatsoever, I'll have to say:

GRUNT IS TERRIBLE IN THAT LIST!

Recomendations:

Tombstalker: Yes, you run DC. You also run Sensei's Divining Top (which, by itself, has enabled Deadguy Ale to run TS) and Brainstorm, i.e. stop being a pussy :] I presume it's a matter of play attitude, if that makes any sense, meaning some people just, uh, to put it bluntly and probably offend someone, have more balls than others when it comes to taking totatly random risks when construction their deck.

Phyrexian Negator + MoR in a Daze slot, a Counterbalance slot, and two of the Grunt slots, with Negator in the other two: Well, this isn't really that hard to explain. They fucking wreck shit, and CB stops MoR removal pretty well.

Sera Avenger: it's a bit lackluster without Jitte, but -4 grunt, +2 Avenger, +2 Jitte could be pretty strong and make your other creatures (mainly Shadowmage Intiltrator) a bit better.

Uh, Morphling? That's all the ideas I have as far as finishers.

Closing comemnts: Really, 4 Daze and 4 CB? That's two slots you could devote to win conditions (see above), enhance consistancey (Ponders), encrease the disruption (Duress, depending on the metagame), or other tech or deckbuilding tweaks (more lands, Stifles, Wastelands perhaps but prolly not, other things I'll elect to keep hidden). Why take those slots for cards you don't want to see more than one of (in most situations)?

after readinbg your reply, i agree with mostly everything there, minus the morphling, mostly because of the fact that it doesn't need finishers, as it just beats with a bunch of small stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown2

after readinbg your reply, i agree with mostly everything there, minus the morphling, mostly because of the fact that it doesn't need finishers, as it just beats with a bunch of small stuff.

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Uh, this is the most neutral and vague statement I think I've ever seen in my life. I'm not sure how to analyze your point as I can't find them. Assuming you're saying that the deck simply beats with small creatures and doesn't need any finishers, i.e. that list's creature base is fine as is, I have this to say:

In the age of Tarmgoyf, this is pretty much an invalid idea. Hell, in the age of, uh, always this was a pretty weak idea, considering that just about all decks in the format have answers to weak creatures (i.e. every deck ever runs some form of removal, even combo, and most of it is reall)y bad for Fish anyway [Massacare in particular for the lists I've seen posted]). Your creatures are rather frail. Yes, Counterbalance fixes this, but by then you could/ should win anyway, or you should use the time it creates to win fast instead of hoping that the CB soft-lock sticks until you beat through with a 2/2 or try to race with a 4/4 that has no evasion, dies to itself, and is rather prone to chump blocking.

If you're somehow saying that the "beating with small stuff" plan isn't effective and the deck needs a finisher:

Well, yes and no. Needs a finsher, but the deck can also win small by just playing tight and getting in damage from utility critters. Although I'm fairly sure that this isn't a good way to actually finish a game, it shortens your clock so that your finisher can come in and wreck shit within 2-ish turns, or something very close to that timeframe.

Bitterblossom is a great card but it is not designed for Fish. Confidant, Fetchlands, Thoughtseize... and Bitterblossom? Good luck.

Trinket Mage? Yes, if you run Phyrexian Dreadnought. Which, honestly, has replaced this deck. Turn 2 Dreadnought is more potent than what Fish should be able to do. Fish was great a while ago (IMO), but if it is to be tuned for this new meta... it needs ALOT of work.

Why are people hating on Jotun Grunt? Jotun Grunt is a house. 2cc for a 4/4 was never bad. Yes, he's not a permanent threat... but with all the removal going around, nothing ever is (unless it can be recurred). Jotun Grunt hoses the graveyard overtime... and graveyard strategies are over-abundant right now.

Never cut Mother of Runes. MoR is one of the key parts to the deck. MoR supports the weak aggro of the deck, turning them into good beats. Between Jitte and MoR, the small 2/x aggro actually become very powerful.

Phyrexian Negator is terrible. Unless you have an active MoR that can protect him, he's going to hurt more than help. This deck doesn't generate enough permanents to support his drawback. 2B for a 5/5 is dumb when you can splash green for Goyf which can easily become a 5/6 for 1G in this deck.

Tombstalker is a solid choice, especially with Top.

Serra Avenger is a bit lame by todays standards. In the Goblin heavy meta, it was awesome. Nowadays, it's only valuable if it has a Jitte (or MoR).

Vindicate is extremely strong in the metagame nowadays because of cards like Counterbalance.

Morphling? Play a different deck if you like Morphling, IMO.

Stifle is dumb in Fish nowadays, even with Grunt. Unless you are running Wasteland (which I think is dumb in a 3c Fish deck), Counterbalance or Thoughtseize is much better than Stifle.

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Mother of Runes
Jotun Grunt
Dark Confidant

Those should be mainstays, with Meddling Mage, Tombstalker, and Spectral Lynx being strong additional guys.

I love Meddling Mage, but only if the deck is built around it. That means running Portent and Duress/Thoughtseize.


Spectral Lynx is a metagame choice.

Honestly, I think this deck outdated. It was great back when I designed it, and could have been way better if I knew then what I knew now, but the evolution of Legacy has invalidated this approach, IMO.

The evolution of Fish has Stifles and Dreadnoughts.

Dominate the entire format?

Those are strong words... the deck is good, but every deck has bad MUs, so dominating is a strong word... it will still have steady competition by either current decks or future decks built to combat it... (if it really was broken as ass).

Can no one catch sarcasm around here?
Fuck!

Anyway, Grunt is ass, for the reasons outlined already. I'd cut it entirely and replace it with something that can actually beat instead of being chumped for 1-3 turns, then die. Grunt is a situationally good card, it's too situational to be playable a relevant amount of the time. It's horendous against agro (and in some cases agro-control), which is already a bad MU, and now you want to make bad matches worse? Also, on that note, the deck needs at least 2 Jittes in the main. 2 sounds like a good number with a fair amount of dig. I'd say Serra Avenger still deserves a slot because it's strong against agro (although stupid 'Goyf wrecks her shit if she isn't packing), which, again, isn't really a strong pairing for this deck. Equipment in the main is pretty much mandatory now because of Tarmogoyf. Ditto for MoR (although it's just too amazing to pull from the deck anyway, unless you live in an entirely combo metagame).

As far as finishers go, Tombstalker really is the best plan. Actually, it's pretty much the only thing that's going to be good as a stand alone, and it still has good synergy with the rest of the deck. I'll draft a list if I feel like it tomorrow (it's 1:31 here and I'm used to going to sleep at 9 and waking at 4, so yeah).

Also, TAT isn't going to dominate the metagame. It, like most decks, has weaknesses, and if one wanted to they could easily make a deck that would tear TAT apart at the seams, just like one could with any other deck (aside from Threshold, but that's just because it can play whatever it wants to and not afraid of anything).

Has anyone seen the new Knight in Eventide?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...4&d=1215091624

Do you think it would be a fit for fish? Being able to laugh at swords, putrefy, and smother is nothing to scoff at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

Has anyone seen the new Knight in Eventide?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...4&d=1215091624

Do you think it would be a fit for fish? Being able to laugh at swords, putrefy, and smother is nothing to scoff at.

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Wayyyyyyyyy to mana intensive. 17 lands, not 24 like in Deadguy (referencing Nantuko Shade). Pro white and Black isn't all that relevant.

So no more love for Fish or what?

Not anymore. This deck was for an old metagame. If it is meant to survive now, it needs Dreadnoughts. UWb Fish + Dreadnought is being discussed in another thread. The traditional MoR + Jitte attached to any of Confidant, Mage, Grunt, or Avenger is not enough these days.

That said, I've seen Dreadnought decks with MoR go very far. Confidant + Mage are still good, too. Just needs some tweaking.

Tradtional UWb? Not so much. It's okay, I'm over it.

Well isn't that a biatch :( I have had this deck as my staple 1.5 for like 4 years (baring minor changes) and I refuse to spash in green for goyfs.

Guess I will have to pick up 4 Dreadnoughts and tweak it a little

.

In my opinion the deck still has potential even without the dreadnought.
I mean Confidant, MM, TS and StP in a deck that can support all this with a solid manabase and a nice curve for CB... It sounds like a good deck to me.

So it seems that Fish, with 6 t8 appearances this period, is a DTW. Isn't that neat. At any rate, here are 4 of the lists (I've yet to cull the other 2 up yet, but one is a UGr build and the other is UBw.)

UW Vial-Still Fish

UBW Enlightened Tutor Fish

UBw Fish

And now, for the list that makes me smile so hard my face hurts, UGr Fish, with 1x Maindeck Grizzly Bears!

But seriously though, even though I don't like the colors at all, there are some interesting choices made in this build. For Example, Deep Anal as opposed to Fact or Fiction or another draw engine/spell: I like this. It's pretty stout against control, because it's a Draw 4 that you'll actually get to cast, and in this build (running 4x Wild Mongrels and 3x Looter il-kor {tangent- I would have added the 4th Looter in the Grizzly Bears slot}) it's also good in the mid-game because it'll hit the yard for a good reason a decent bit of time. On that note I've been liking the thought of Looter il-kor in a more CA creature centric build.

Also, the Stifle-Waste plan looks a little bit cleaner here than it does in UGr Thrash, because it doesn't cut into the manabase at all, the creatures are a hair more aggressive because of Rancor + either evasion in the case of Looter il-kor and Wonder, Being Tarmogoyf (which doesn't really hold much against UGr Thrash's Tarmogoyfs, save that the FishoGoyfs can wear Rancor and fly), Being able to grow in the case of Wild Mongrel, or being a bear in the case of Grizzly Bears (as cute as that is, why wouldn't you want a Werebear/ another Looter in that slot? Or Ashcoat Bears, fuck).

At any rate, I think I'd tweak the manabase a bit, cutting down to 20 lands and changing the fetchland ratios, and find some room for 4x Lightening Bolt in the MD.



I presume it's a neat fact that none of these lists ran CounterTop.

Hopefully, no body minds if I chime in...

I agreed with what Hanni has been saying for quite some time now.. this deck needs to change in order to succeed in legacy...

Obviously, we were both wrong, as it has had this level of success in the european metagame (which is a lot more diverse than the american meta, therefore more difficult to do well IMO)...

Anyways, here is what I think fish should look like to combat the current environment:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=450

Well, you were right in one aspect: Fish had to change to do well in this environment, and it did. The only part where you were wrong was in thinking it had to move forward. Of all the recently successful lists I've seen, they've regressed into playing old-school Fish, such as UW Silver Knight Fish or UBw Trinket Fish playing typical tutor targets like those found in CounterTop Solution (EE, Pithing Needle, Crypt, etc.).

Then again... looking at that UGr list, That's pretty damn neat, if I may say so myself. I'd love to see someone develop that a bit more. I think something like this would be a bit better:

Creatures: 15
Looter il-kor x4
Wild Mongrel x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Wonder x3

Instants: 16
Daze x4
FoW x4
Brainstorm x4
Stifle x4

Sorceries: 3
Deep Anal x3

Enchantments: 3
Rancor x3

Lands: 19
Wasteland x4
Wooded Foothills x2
Flooded Strand x2
Polluted Delta x2
Tropical Island x3
Volcanic Island x3
Island x2
Forest x1

4x Empty. Could be Threads (I've never liked it, personally), Pyroblasts, Lightning Bolts, Needles, Repeal. Repeals look the strongest, though.

Looter makes me think of UBw Fish, though... hrm. I'll get back to you on that.

@ raharu...

After looking at the builds that you pointed out... it seems to be that you were correct.


However, the deck that you just showed doesn't really belong here... I don't think...

As it is not even close to the color scheme (read urg instead of uwb)... and I don't even know if it can be called fish.

Anyways... I won't post here any more, as I do not play fish enough to give good feedback.

Before this Thread dies on the fourth Page of the Established Decks Section, I thought i post my own Variant of UWb Fish.

UWb Fish
Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (15)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Meddling Mage
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Tombstalker

Permanents (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

Spells (21)
3 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Meddling Mage
3 Perish
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast



Card Choices

Spectral Lynx
This Card is incredibly strong in a Meta full of Goyfs and Mongoose. Blocking them all Day, or attacking right through them is hard, especialy on Grow. The Ability to survive Deed and Explosives is nice to. The 2/2 Split with Meddling Mage is a temporal Test to see, who gets the Spot.

Tombstalker
This Deck needs something to finish the Game, once it gets control. This Creature can perform this Task. Its hard when revealed with Confidant, but this Card has enough Libary Manipulation, that it rarely happens.

Counterbalance
Do I realy have to explain this? This Deck can Counter even for 3 Mana, making it Harder for the Opponent to get around

Ponder
It's relativly new in my List, but it is huge. It's so much better in the early Turns, cause you can shuffle, if you didn't find, what you are looking for.

Vindicate
About this Card i got Questioned a lot of Times. I don't know why... It handels Humilitys, Counterbalances, Vials, Recursion Lands, Creatures and even Planeswalkers, that pop out of nowhere sometimes. And you can destroy creatures, whithout getting the opponent more Life.


Perish
At the Moment there is a relevant amount of Elf-Decks in my Meta and without this Card you just loose this Matchup.

Hydroblasts & BEBs
Of cause 6 looks like I'm crazy. But this amount totaly wrecks Burn and Slight-Decks, makes the Belcher Matchup much easier and helps a lot against Goblins. So they get their Place in the Sideboard.


But why don't you play ...

Chrome Mox
I had them on my List a long time, but other then the First-Turn Bob, this Deck does not very much with the speed it gains and the Card-Disatvantage is quite huge. It does make the Deck more resistent against LD, so maybe they come back sometimes.

Goyfs
I've tried the Baseruption Variant and I realy Hate the Manabase. 4c just sucks, so when i want to play Goyf, i take Grow...

Stifle
Had them in the Deck a long time, but they just had to go, to make the Space for Counter-Top. Maybe they come back in the Sideboard, when Landstill plays more Elspeth.

Serra Avenger
Without Jitte, it is just not strong enough. Goyfs race it and ther are just to few Creatures it can actually block and survive for Vigilance to realy matter.

Umezawa's Jitte
Of cause i tried them, but they just don't do the Tricks for me. Normaly you have to sac a Creature (getting blockt by Goyfs or so) to get the First counters and this Deck can't handle this. And sometimes you have an empty Board and a Jitte in Hand.

Engineered Plague
They just don't do what they should. With the Exclusion of Faeries, all Tribal Decks can go on to some extend with one Plague on the Board. And you just don't have the time to find a second one.



For me, the Deck runs just fine. It hasn't won a Tournament yet, but with some further Improvements it maybe can get there. Last Placing was 9th out of 46 with a possibility of 6th with better Opp-Score.
Matchups were:
UGw-Grow (2:0)
Survival-Elfs (2:1) [he had one Gameloss for wrong Decklist]
UGw-Grow (2:0)
UGr-Grow (0:2) [This Matchup is nearly unwinnable at the moment]
UWg-Cunning-LS (1:2)
Burn (2:0)

In testing is a Variant with Seerendib Efreet in Place of Infiltrator for more Pressure and a better UGr-Matchup.

I'd cut the Lynx for the Serendibs before cutting the Infiltrators. Lynx is incredibly narrow as (a.) Tombstalker flies over it, (b.) Dreadnaught tramples over it for a bunch, and (c.) it only really shines versus Goyf as I doubt you'll be keeping a mana open every turn to regenerate it versus non-Goyf creatures.

Also, running Infiltrators seem to be more of a reason to run some sort of equipment, but I understand deckspace is tight. Possibly cutting Lynx for Serendib or Serra Avenger + Infiltrator would be enough to reconsider Jitte? I don't know.

EDIT: The reason I would run Jitte is because many of our creatures aren't a threat by themselves. Aside from Grunt and Stalker, everyone else is hitting for 1 or 2 points. Jitte makes our Infiltrator a legitmate threat while doubling as removal. Jitte is important, imo.

Alot of recent posts have said that this deck is no longer viable. Unfortunately, no onr has stated any specifics, instead falling back on vague reasons like '{card} just doesn't cut it anymore'. Could those of you who have found the deck lacking please what exactly it is that is stopping you, so that the deck cold be tweaked and hopefully revived.
Since it runs WUb (2 of the most competite colors) there are plenty of options available for updating fish for the current meta.
-aggro got ya down -> 4 stp + 2 path to exile + finks(fits the two-for-one aspect of fish's creature base)
-problems with combo -> Orim's chant + duress + unmask
-thesh -> all kinds of graveyard hate

Could elspeth be a viable substitute for jitte, seeing as how jitte has fallen off and the deck could use some repeatable/reach?
Would running Counter-Top with Scepter-Chant provide just too many lock options for the opp. to deal with?
Honestly I don't know. But its worth looking into, but not until we identify the specific problem.
Thanks for any thoughtful responses,
-Mono

The Problem, from my point of view, is, that this Deck a decent Finisher.

It lacks a finisher like Tarmogoyf to finish a Match in 2-3 Rounds once you gain Control like Grow, so the opponent has to much time.
I have done Testings with a lot of different Approaches to this:
- More Creatures: I tested Versions up to 19 Creatures, playing 3 Grunt and MM, Lynx, Bobs and Avengers as 4 of. It was a nice Version, but you loose CB in this Version and this hurts some Matchups (example Loam) like hell.
- Equipments: The natural inclusion, if you have small creatures. And it was nice, when you have a Equipted Creature, you won most of the Time. Problem is when you only have one of them. At least in my List, Equipment have to take the Place of Creatures, meaning, you make it easier for your Opponent, to handle your few threads or just overwhelm you.
- Inclusion of Finishers: Variants with Tarmogoyfs where fast cut, cause the Manabase sucked to much. In the remaining Colors I've tested Tombstalkers, which were huge, but you can't play more than 2 in a List with 4 Confidants.
And i tested Serra Avenger, which never liked. They die easily to Burn, are to small for Vigilance to matter and are not fast enought, for decent Finishers. At the moment I'm testing Serendib Efreets, which are nice 3/4 Flyers and can survive Burn. I will Post Results, when i got more time to test.

On my List as other possible Finishers stand:
- Exalted Angel, which is hard to Cast, but Lifelink is realy nice.
- Dreadnought, which can end the Game in 2 Turns and is easy to fit in the Deck.
- Ethersworn Adjudicator (Conflux): A 4/4 Flyer witha decent Ability for 5 Mana may be good.


Elspeth is an interesting Idea, but i don't know if it is good in this Deck. It screams for Win-More, but maybe i give it a try.
Scepter-Chant is just bad in Fish i think. At least my list is running not even one Spell I would like to imprint in a Scepter. I never could find 6 Slots (2 Scepter + at least 4 Chant or Counterspell) to cut in this Deck.

The idea that the deck can't finish seems to be a consistant and real concern. But it doesn't seem like something that should be an insurmountable road-block. As such here is the list I'm considering:

Land:18
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
2x Plains
1x Island
1x Swamp

Creatures:13
3x Mother of Runes
3x MM
4x Bob
3x Shadowmage Infiltrator

Artifacts:5
2x Jitte
3x Top

Enchantments:4
4x Counterbalance

Instants:12
4x Brainstorm
4x Force
4x Stp

Sorceries:7
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate

Plainswalkers:2
2x Elspeth
Total: 61 - close enough
Why these?
I see Elspeth and Jitte filling the kill-con role, and since both are 'legends' then playing both in low numbers increases your overall chance of drawing at least one, if not both. Plus this deck only runs 13 creatures so Elspeth and whip up some jitte holders as well.

@ MSC
Serendib, bob, fetches, and FoW are going to lead to a quick suicide, especially against any deck running burn. For you Ajani or even Clearwater Goblet could be necessary

Hope this was coherent and maybe a bit thought-provoking
-Mono

Okay, lets have a look over this:

Lands:
I can only play 17 Lands with 6 Cantrips and its still close. 18 was okay with 4 Brainstorms.
Second, play Basics. You always want outs against Blood Moon, Wastelock and so on...

13 Creatures 2 Jitte 2 Elspeth:
Looks good to me, definite worth a try. Maybe you should consider the 3th Infiltrator over the 4th MM, cause they are just better in a lot of Matchups. Of cause Infiltrator is the better Jitte-Carrier too.

Counter-Top:
Play 3 tops. You just want to find on in the first few rounds. If you don't want, consider playing one Enlightened Tutor, wich can also find other usefull things.

Instants and Sorcerys:
This is the part i don't like. Forces, Vindicates and StP are all set and good.
But Counterspell? There are right points, about Daze. But it is really good, at protecting your second Turn Bob / CB. If it still should be no Daze play Spell Snare in this Slot. It's just to late in the Game, that you get to keep 2 Mana open. 1 happens more often and it handles a lot of things.
Duress is the other Part. Yeah, Thoughtsize loose you life, but Duress is dead in so many Matchups, it's just not worth it.

Maybe a list like that:
Land: 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures:13
3x Mother of Runes
3x MM
4x Bob
3x Shadowmage Infiltrator

Plainswalkers:2
2x Elspeth

Artifacts & Enchantments:9
2x Jitte
3x Top
4x CB

Spells:19
4x Force
4x Spell Snare
4x Stp
3x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate



Just a word to Lifeloss: Yeah, Fetching, Bob, Thoughtseize, FoW and so on are hurting. It's right, I've won most of my games with under 5 Life. But it's the price to be payed to get a good Deck. Keeping your life by playing suboptimal Cards will be counterproductive cause you need to control the Board to win.
As an example: You're not the first to suggest going down on Fetchies. But by playing this amount you get 2 Effects: Your Manabase gets Super-Stable (whithout Disruption) cause you always get the Colors you need. AND you get Shuffle-Effects, which make your Counter-Top Engine far more effective. And an effective Counterbalance wins you far more Games as the 2 or 3 Life you can gain from cutting Fetchies.


P.S. My posts seem to get a little to long, i think. :tongue:

@MSC: thanks for the critique
My land situation is poor (thanks for catching that). And your opinion of Counterspell maybe valid as well (which is a good thing, cause I'm going to need space for the extra lands.) But if protecting a 2nd turn bob or CB is your goal then wouldn't more targetted discard on 1st turn be better than either Daze or SpellSnare.
Something along the lines of (from my original list):
-4x Counterspell
-2x Duress
-2x Stifle/PoE/ect


+4x Thoughtseize
+2x Land (19 total w/ a deck of 61 cards)
+1x Shadowmage Infiltrator
+1x Top
Wouldn't 6 targeted discard spells and the Mother of Runes be enough to ensure a safe bob (and maybe CB) on 2nd or 3rd turn?
My only problem with this list is that the BLUE is getting blue'ed (only 11 {not counting other FoW)} which is going to make FoW harder (-2x FoW, +2x Unmask? {16 B spells}). Hmmm, its so close.

Dying to know how the Serendib version is working for ya',
-Mono