[Deck] Merfolk

I've been playing with rishadan ports as a 3x in my former versiona and now I'm testing mutavaults. I'd got to say that vaults offer a little advantage versus some decks ( counterslivers in particular), but I'm not still convinced that they're better than my ol' ports. Sometimes i just realized that a further beater was just unnecessary and i'd rather have had a port to mana-deny my oppo, while other times i won games thanks to mutavault.
What do you guys think about those 2 lands ? Do you think it's possible to find a configuration which packs both ? i was thinking to something like 3 wastes, 2 ports and 3 vaults to add both, but in this case i'd have to cut a waste and i think it's the only colorless land which deserves an automatic 4-ofs; moreover, i don't want to cut too many islands, since we need them to play daze and , sometimes, hardcast Lord. I'm convinced that, without port, the deck loses too much of its strength ( the disruption part) to play more like "goblin-esque " tribe style. On the other side, it's also true, for example, that goblins can afford to play ports because of lackey that cheats mana, while we're not that fast.
I tried to look on merfolks that made top8 on DeckCheck.net and i noticed that many are turning their ports into Mutavaults, while others are still keeping a mixed tuning. However, there's no one still playing only ports without mutavaults, that's for sure, but still I'm not totally convinced.

@ Phoenix Ignition: does really Whirlpool Rider deserve a 2 slots in that deck ? i think they're wassted. I mean, it's surely a good card if you draw it into lategame while you have plenty of dead cards, in hand, but what about having it in your initial hand ? you'd have to shuffle eventual good cards to draw, maybe, some shit. It's too risky IMO, just depending on strokes of luck-or unluck.
Not to consider that he'd always remain a cc2 1/1 (almost) vanilla creature, and i think that , at this point, there are other merfolks with way more interesting abilities.
If i was going to run rider, i would not go over the 1-of. There are way more stronger merfolks (both in body and in abilities) to abuse, rather than that one.

First, a quick bit of introduction. I’ve been playing Magic for about three years, but have never played any proper Legacy, primarily due to card/opportunity restrictions. But, I live very close to Chicago and this seems like the perfect opportunity. I’m interested in playing Merfolk, so I want to know what you think of this decklist for testing.

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejeray
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvegill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
1 Whirlpool Rider

3 Relic of Progenitus
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Vial
3 Stifle

10 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 ‘Ports
3 Mutavaults

No idea for sideboard yet. Assuming no major changes in Conflux, what kind of meta do you think will appear at Chicago, and what should I test for sideboard? Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Wrath_Of_Houlding

First, a quick bit of introduction. I’ve been playing Magic for about three years, but have never played any proper Legacy, primarily due to card/opportunity restrictions. But, I live very close to Chicago and this seems like the perfect opportunity. I’m interested in playing Merfolk, so I want to know what you think of this decklist for testing.

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejeray
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvegill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
1 Whirlpool Rider

3 Relic of Progenitus
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Vial
3 Stifle

10 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 ‘Ports
3 Mutavaults

No idea for sideboard yet. Assuming no major changes in Conflux, what kind of meta do you think will appear at Chicago, and what should I test for sideboard? Thanks!

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I think that cursecatcher in merfolk should be a 4x. However, for the sideboad, even if merfolks list tend to be very various in the cards to choose to get in g2 and g3 because of the metagame and of the cards that are more likely to be faced, I'd go something like this:

3 propaganda: goblins and very aggro decks tend to overwhelm us. Ichorid and EtW isn't happy with this, too.
0-1 relics: if you really fear yard based decks.
3 Chill or BEB: against burn, sligh, and , again, against goblins.
2-3 Pithing Needles: versatile aghainst plenty of things.
2-3 Divert: mini-misdirections to be cast against removals/disruption.
2-3 echoing truths: again, these should be sided in against noughts but also that decks against which you're expecting pesky cards ( i think most of all to Moat and Engineered Plague). useful also against stax and stompy, ofc.

Hurkyl's recall: if you're expecting lot of artifact-based lists.
Mind Harness: Since you pack relics MD, these aren't needed anymore that much.

I personally don't like Umezawa's jitte in Merfolks, but feel free to put it in sideboard if you feel the necessity to race aggro and you don't want to use propaganda. What's sure is, don't even consider Seasinger for Sb slots, she just sucks.

@lands: I used to just run 4 wastes, 3 ports and did well with that strategy. I then obtained mutavaults and ever since I've just run 4 wastelands and 3 mutavaults. The reason why is that now standstill gains us inevitability. Before, I had to actually do work and make sure I had something on the board for standstill to help me at all. Now I can plop a standstill down if the opponent has a 1/1 or less on the board, since I will eventually draw into the mutavault and win if they don't crack the standstill.

The thing that really did it for me was when I took out a land. I think 12 islands is the absolute least amount you can use in the deck. Since I only had room for 7 other lands I went 4 wastes 3 mutas. The thing about port is that it costs too much and doesn't guaruntee a mana denial. I couldn't tell you the number of times I've attempted to tap a land on their upkeep and they just use it for an instant in response. Usually I have to keep from playing something as well, to save those 2 lands. I know that the ports create a good synergy with wastelands and stifles, but they don't win as many games as mutavault, and they sometimes actually lose games. If you are going to run 20 lands I would do 12 islands, 4 wastelands, 1 port, 3 mutavaults... but the 1 port just seems awkward.

@Whirlpool Rider: He really is good in here. Early game you can pitch him to FoW without thinking too much and late game he turns extra islands (that weren't thinned out from fetches) and vials into playable cards. I have also had much success with opponents cracking standstill with something important and myself not drawing a FoW, but with whirlpool rider, I vial him in and get 9 other shots to hit it.

You say there are many other merfolk, even stranger ones, that would fit better. I've looked through every merfolk in the game a few times, and I've playtested 8 of them in this slot. Sygg, white Sygg, Mirror Entity, Inkfathom Infiltrator, Tidal warrior, Tidal Courier, Manta Riders, and a couple other white-splash merfolk all don't cut it. I'm wondering which merfolk you mean. The Sapprazzan heir (I think his name is) is not worth it, as you give the opponent the choice of whether you draw cards or not, and that is never a good thing to do in my experience. The other merfolk either cost too much for what they do, or are shitty milling cards. Did you actually have any in mind or were you just saying that and hoping I'd come up with a better creature?

@Wrath: You need 12 islands at least. Right now you're running 10 islands 10 colorless lands, but you always want an island to play first turn, whether it be for stifling purposes, cursecatcher, daze, or just saving your wasteland so the opponent feels safer playing their non-basic lands.

Also, I agree with Picelli that you absolutely need 4 cursecatcher. He is the reason that you will never lose to combo, that your lords live extra turns to deal a lot more damage, and he is great after you get a reejery out to tap permanents cheap. Not to mention, he's the best way to help abuse your vial ramping.

I really like the following sideboard:

3 Echoing Truth
2 Propaganda
2-3 Back to Basics
2-3 Divert
2-3 Pithing Needle
~anything else fill with Jitte (I think it's good against certain decks that this one has troubles with), anything that will help you against goyf sligh (but it's pretty bad for you already) such as Mind Harness, Chill, and BEB/hydroblast.

Pithing needle and divert are decent against goyf sligh, make sure to keep their Figure of Destiny and Grim Lavamancer in check with needles if you can. Divert is decent but usually doesn't win you the game against them.

Jittes are slow and I agree they aren't needed in here, but against decks that have a ton of creature hate you need them. All of our folk are good in groups but aside from thrasher, suck by themselves. Jitte can really move the game in your direction.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

@lands: I used to just run 4 wastes, 3 ports and did well with that strategy. I then obtained mutavaults and ever since I've just run 4 wastelands and 3 mutavaults. The reason why is that now standstill gains us inevitability. Before, I had to actually do work and make sure I had something on the board for standstill to help me at all. Now I can plop a standstill down if the opponent has a 1/1 or less on the board, since I will eventually draw into the mutavault and win if they don't crack the standstill. .

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Hoping that the opponent doesn't wasteland your mutavault, since waste is a common land in a legacy metagame... And 3 mutavaults doesn't assure you to draw it surely on 60 cards...You'd hve to wait a bit, and hope they don't get in something bastard like a mishra's factory.. Well, your wastelands at least could resolve this

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

You say there are many other merfolk, even stranger ones, that would fit better. I've looked through every merfolk in the game a few times, and I've playtested 8 of them in this slot. Sygg, white Sygg, Mirror Entity, Inkfathom Infiltrator, Tidal warrior, Tidal Courier, Manta Riders, and a couple other white-splash merfolk all don't cut it. I'm wondering which merfolk you mean. The Sapprazzan heir (I think his name is) is not worth it, as you give the opponent the choice of whether you draw cards or not, and that is never a good thing to do in my experience. The other merfolk either cost too much for what they do, or are shitty milling cards. Did you actually have any in mind or were you just saying that and hoping I'd come up with a better creature?

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To be honest, i thought you could fit in a 1x of tidal warrior or another wake thrasher, even if i know dthat you dislike warrior (which could serve, after all, also as a mana denier, and since you have cut ports, this shouldn't be that bad..) and you want to stick with 2x of thrasher. I realized that even 1x Black sygg isn't that bad, since he has a decent body a a blocker and sometimes can give you extra cards.. but, since you did a tourney with him and said that it's not that useful, i'll respect your choice of playing Riders, even if i consider it not worth of being played as a 2 or even 3-ofs when thrasher is the only merfolk which is good standing alone, and we desperately need a blue piledriver to go off with the race quickly.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Hoping that the opponent doesn't wasteland your mutavault, since waste is a common land in a legacy metagame... And 3 mutavaults doesn't assure you to draw it surely on 60 cards...You'd hve to wait a bit, and hope they don't get in something bastard like a mishra's factory.. Well, your wastelands at least could resolve this

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Notice I said against 90% of the decks out there. The thing about your wastelands is they kill opponents wastelands without 2 for 1ing your lands unless you did stupidly play a mutavault with their wasteland out there.

And again, I would say that at most 10% of decks run mishra's factories, so obviously don't be stupid and drop a standstill against them, as they are more equipped to handle it unless you have a vial out or way more creatures...

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

To be honest, i thought you could fit in a 1x of tidal warrior or another wake thrasher, even if i know dthat you dislike warrior (which could serve, after all, also as a mana denier, and since you have cut ports, this shouldn't be that bad..) and you want to stick with 2x of thrasher. I realized that even 1x Black sygg isn't that bad, since he has a decent body a a blocker and sometimes can give you extra cards.. but, since you did a tourney with him and said that it's not that useful, i'll respect your choice of playing Riders, even if i consider it not worth of being played as a 2 or even 3-ofs when thrasher is the only merfolk which is good standing alone, and we desperately need a blue piledriver to go off with the race quickly.

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I really don't want to go half-assed on my mana denial strategy and then run tidal warrior. It's either run ports + tidal warrior or neither in my opinion, as you can screw the opponent over and make up for your excess of colorless mana with the warrior. Wakethrasher, as I've said many times, can be a 2 or 3 of. He is the piledriver of merfolk, but I really don't think goblins and merfolk can be compared anymore, as merfolk are going much more towards control and combo matchups than pure aggro. I really think this is more of a metagame call though, since paying 3 for an instantly dead 1/1 is not worth it. I prefer running 2 whirlpool riders since they give me so much better card selection once I hit them.

Phoenix, I was wondering a merfolk that perhaps you didn't see: Shapesharer (he's a changeling). Well it's not quite a merfolk, but it could solve some of the problems of this deck ( copying a dreadnought or an exalted angel in mid or late games isn't that shit), although being pretty mana-intensive. Some of the posters of this thread called him sometimes ago, personally i found it to be quite slow, but maybe if we pack 2 Relics instead of echoing truths, it could cover what the missing truths cannot any more, i.e. having a sort of protection against obsolete fatties.
What do ya think?

Doesn't seem like all too bad of a suggestion. How cool would it be to vial one in the face of an attacking Goyf while you have a lord in play. Doesn't seem too out of the ordinary. It can also trade with Dreadnoughts/Stalkers by itself. Idk, I guess I'd need to test.
Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).

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I fear it's not possible, but since I'm pretty a noob on card interactions, I'll wait for someone else to answer.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Phoenix, Shapesharer
What do ya think?

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Interesting. I remember people thinking that he sucked before, and I never gave him more thought. I think he does require more testing, since I can see a use for him with the metagame right now being Tombstalker, Dreadnaught, other fatties (Loxodon Hierarch, Doran, Goyf without relics, Terravore).

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Originally Posted by Berzerked

Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).

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I'm not sure how this ability triggers its end effect. I'm used to being able to get around things like cleanup steps with Kiki-Jiki, but it seems like this effect ends at the start of your turn, and therefore you can't cheat something into being a wakethrasher and getting the +1/+1 effect of it, seeing as I don't think you can use it before you untap. On the other hand, he does mean you can effectively run 10 lords, or like you said Picelli, run free dreadnaughts.

I'll give him a shot and tell ya what goes on.

Cool find on Shapesharer. But allow me to play devil's advocate. What makes this guy better than Waterfront Bouncer? Shapesharer can become a Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, but Shapesharer still doesn't remove any of those creatures to stop them from blocking you. Furthermore, Sharer can be killed in resp to his ability. That's an even worse tempo loss than StPing Wake Thrasher. Waterfront Bouncer solves the blocker problem, and it lives to be able to do it again. Given the format, it "kills" two of Legacy's biggest creatures, Dreadnought and Tombstalker.

The last 7 days I tested this deck.
I prefer play Ug list because in SB trygon predator and krosan greep are very very strong, but in mono U list back to basics is very very strong.

For me misdirection is better than divert because I can play it the first turn (my opponent started).
In late game misdi is better too.
I must peach a card, but isnt a big problem.

If my opponent plays turn one : swamp + dark ritual + seize or hymn misdi is GOODDDD!! With divert I suck!!!

A little question: why in American metagame relic of progenitus is playing maindeck? I prefer to play echoing/rushing river or wipe away.

ps : sry for my little english

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Cool find on Shapesharer. But allow me to play devil's advocate. What makes this guy better than Waterfront Bouncer? Shapesharer can become a Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, but Shapesharer still doesn't remove any of those creatures to stop them from blocking you. Furthermore, Sharer can be killed in resp to his ability. That's an even worse tempo loss than StPing Wake Thrasher. Waterfront Bouncer solves the blocker problem, and it lives to be able to do it again. Given the format, it "kills" two of Legacy's biggest creatures, Dreadnought and Tombstalker.

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After playtesting Shapesharer, I realize why he wasn't used before. He really isn't that great against most decks. The only creatures we need to worry about are Tombstalker and Dreadnaught, and out of those two, we can race tombstalker (since 80% of the decks that run him have islands). Dreadnaught on the other hand is not usually raceable if they get him out early, but we do have a lot of disruption to make sure he doesn't make it out there turn 2. Overall I'd say shapesharer is much worse than the Whirlpool Rider.

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Originally Posted by Aj-capra

The last 7 days I tested this deck.
I prefer play Ug list because in SB trygon predator and krosan greep are very very strong, but in mono U list back to basics is very very strong.

For me misdirection is better than divert because I can play it the first turn (my opponent started).
In late game misdi is better too.
I must peach a card, but isnt a big problem.

If my opponent plays turn one : swamp + dark ritual + seize or hymn misdi is GOODDDD!! With divert I suck!!!

A little question: why in American metagame relic of progenitus is playing maindeck? I prefer to play echoing/rushing river or wipe away.

ps : sry for my little english

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I think Merfolk are as good as they are because they don't worry about splashing colors that aren't really needed. Trygon and K-grip are good, but I'm not sold that they're worth the extra possibility of having our manabase disrupted, especially when we already run 7 colorless lands.

You may be right about the misdirection. I don't really like running them and Force of Will because we don't get as much card advantage as we'd like, and divert works in 95% of the cases that Misdirection does.

American Metagame has so many decks that rely on the graveyard that Relic is definitely worth maindecking (and it cantrips when you don't want it). Merfolk have trouble with early goyfs, so this is a great fix. Other than that, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, any deck with Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, Tombstalker, Grim Lavamancer, Jotun Grunt, Terravore, Tarmogoyf, and even combos that use Ill-gotten gains and Cabal ritual. I would say this card isn't sideboarded out against 90% of the decks out there.

This is my testing list:

// Lands
11 [ALA] Island (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4) <-- I don't have mutavault yet!

// Creatures
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
2 [SH] Tidal Warrior
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [MM] Waterfront Bouncer
1 [AP] Whirlpool Rider

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Tidal Warrior is good for denial and for islandwalk

I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.

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Originally Posted by JeroenC

I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.

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I would completely ignore this... I'd guess it's a first time reader of the forum.

If you have them you should run rishadan ports instead of the mishra's factories. They're still good, but I think the lack of merfolkness would be more of a detriment, and since you run tidal warriors anyway, you're going to have a much better time of mana-denialing them.

Standstill is one of the best cards in the deck, I would never run less than 4, also you're running 18 lands, which is bad since you don't have cantrips. Use 12 islands or try to get lucky drawing into them.

-1 relic for +1 creature seems fine, but honestly, Relic takes tournaments by storm.

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Originally Posted by JeroenC

I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.

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If I drop 2 relics I put 2 echoing, but I play 2 bouncer already.

@edit : Phoenix Ignition can you post a good list for me? With/without vault. Thanks very much!!

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Originally Posted by Aj-capra

If I drop 2 relics I put 2 echoing, but I play 2 bouncer already.

@edit : Phoenix Ignition can you post a good list for me? With/without vault. Thanks very much!!

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List I won the 40 man tournament was using Sygg, River Cutthroat instead of Whirlpool Rider, but this is the list I currently would have used:


12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Whirlpool Rider

4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

SB:
2 Propaganda (I call it ichoscoop)
3 Chill (not nearly enough to make burn/sligh favorable, but I couldn't in my right mind play with no SB for them)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (see chill, also good against random aggro deck)
2 Pithing Needle (vs random stuff or mishra's factory)
3 Echoing Truth (good against lots of things)
2 Back to Basics (Aggro loam and the rock)
2 Divert or Misdirection(All around good against stuff)


So I'm not sure that Mishra's Factory is going to be better or worse than Rishadan Port... you should playtest that. It might not matter that it isn't a changeling (although that helps your Meathooks matchups more for sure). If you would rather go the mana-denial route I would probably run:

List w/o Mutavault.
12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Tidal Warrior

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth
3 Stifle

Probably something like this. Your main goal is to win before they can really do anything. Echoing truth takes care of whatever they manage to put on the field. Use it at the end of their turn to take care of their threats, then drop standstill. Make sure no one has green mana for an early goyf or it gets rough. Relic would probably need to find a place in your sideboard against decks with Life from the Loam, but I've won games with this list before they had a chance to cast anything other than LftL.

Don't use bouncer in this list. He's so incredibly slow that it just isn't worth it. I know he has good synergy with standstill, but you should make a different deck altogether for that synergy.

Another Merfolk top8 here out of 77 people... with no Wasteland, and 2 Bouncers!
This deck is growing more and more everyday; it got a DTW status for me; maybe we need a good Primer on the opening post now, that's a little outdated.

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Originally Posted by Samsunait

Another Merfolk top8 here out of 77 people... with no Wasteland, and 2 Bouncers!
This deck is growing more and more everyday; it got a DTW status for me; maybe we need a good Primer on the opening post now, that's a little outdated.

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Yes, this is absolutely true. People are caring so much about the recent successes of Team America , but they can't see how merfolks are doing top8 both in America and Europe sometimes even more than TA. On DeckCheck, there are about 30-31 Merfolks having hit the top8 - also in big tourneys. Is it enough to give it a [DTW] tag ?
I think it would be the time both to recognize the strengths of this deck and give it a decent and updated primer. I'd like to make it for a part, but It would be better if someone could help me ( since i'll be surely criticized for something that i'll write XD).
Phoenix Ignition, would you like to write something about Folks, since you did very good results, if you have the possibility to ? I could help you if you want.

P.S. In the list you gave to Aj without mutavaults , I'd go -1 truth +1 daze to harden the mana denial package, since daze is extremely synergic with ports and cursecatchers. Just an annoying observation :wink:

@Aj: (ciao , ti ho incontrato una volta su Mws e tu giocavi Team America, poi mi hai chiesto delle cose su un torneo di Milano. Sei rimasto impressionato dalla potenza dei Pesci, eh? :D)
I think that misdirection, although being a good card, doesn't really fit in merfolks.
Divert/misdirection are designed to be sided in against those deck against which a blue-based fishesque deck sucks ( The Rock in particular, and , as you were mentioning, MonoBlack Discard ) because they run cheap removals which often make us in a situation of "virtual " disadavantage. I Explain myself better: many times,, playing against Rock, i found myself spending 3 mana to cast reejerey and then, it gets StP'ed with them tapping a single mana. This can be considered as a sort of "mana " disadvantage because I "lost" my resources that turn laying something which got removed with less mana than the amount i used for it ( i know it's a bit an intricate concept, but try to understand it ).
The only consistent form of protection we have agaisn the rock casting his removal/disruptive bombs ( thoughtseize,vindicate, smother, Stp, ecc, and soon i think PathtoExile) is Force Of Will, which reuries a loss of 2 cards. Daze and cursecatchers are surely good as counters, but they lose their efficacy as the game goes on, and particularly more if you are playing a decklist less based on mana denying the opponent ( the one with mutavaults, to be clear).
Divert is optimal here, and superior to Misdirection, because it allows to turn this " virtual disadvantage " which we suffer into both virtual and card disadvantage for them:
just Diverting a StP or,even better, a Vindicate on them so that they lose creatures or lands, slowing them consistenly and allowing us to ramp to our gameplan a bit more "safely".
You could say that Misdirection does this in the same way, but Misdirection requires also a card to be pitched, so it would be "2 for 2" ( for example, if you divert a Stp on his confidant, he loses 2 cards, bt you also do).
Divert doesn't have this weakness, since it usually does "1 per 2" ( since it doesn't require anything to be pitched to it), so IMO it's >> than misdirection. A single mana to be spent is worth this advantage, i guess. Just float U always , in these matchups.
Ah, not to mention that you can trick them with divert, since you can cursecatcher/daze a spell in order to make them waste the mana and then divert it onto their permanents/themselves, or you can do also the contrary, diverting it to make them pay and, so,lose mana, and then daze/catcher that spell. I know this is 2x1 for them, but this is to be used only in critical situations. Divert, in fact, should be cast in the early phases, waiting to cast it too much could make it perfectly useless or playable around.
It's a "difficult " card, since you have to be able to bluff to make them cast that spell to divert on themselves, but i assure that it's completely worth that SB slots.

@Piceli : ciao bello tutto bene? Ora che ricordo ti avevo chiesto il metagame. Pesci mi affascina, ma a volte non mi convince. Cmq mi trovo meglio con la lista Ug.

I tested U list and I losed a lot of games, but with Ug list I losed not mutch.
Tarmo and trygon are very important for me!!!

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Phoenix Ignition, would you like to write something about Folks, since you did very good results, if you have the possibility to ? I could help you if you want.

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I would be happy to, but as it is right now, even with people winning with the list no one thinks it is worth playing. So I would be happy to write up a new primer with all of the new updates and such, but right now the demand for it seems pretty low. Also, I would need your imputs on a sideboard and matchup %s. I have my own data, but it would be much better to throw yours in as well. PM me your sideboard, matchup %s, and how many maindecked relics, thrasher, daze, and open slots you think there should be.

Also on that new list at the 70 person tournament, I'm happy to see people are trusting my advice on using Relic of Progenitus Maindeck :wink:.

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Originally Posted by Aj-capra

I tested U list and I losed a lot of games, but with Ug list I losed not mutch.
Tarmo and trygon are very important for me!!!

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I really think this has to do with how you're playing the deck. We have had plenty of results, including my own, that testify to how well this deck works as mono blue. Can you tell us what matchups you had troubles against and which ones you were wishing for tarmogoyf and trygon (you play trygon maindeck?). This deck isn't as simple as it seems, and it sure as hell doesn't use the goblins strategy of playing everything while keeping an eye on overextending. If you were using the mana denial deck I posted, it plays much much differently than the mutavault deck.


Also, you can "lose a lot of games" with any deck, which doesn't necessarily say anything about the deck itself. The only decks in my opinion that can win even with a bad player are ones that pack goyf because it doesn't take a genius to know that low-cost big creature turns sideways 4 times and wins game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Also, you can "lose a lot of games" with any deck, which doesn't necessarily say anything about the deck itself. The only decks in my opinion that can win even with a bad player are ones that pack goyf because it doesn't take a genius to know that low-cost big creature turns sideways 4 times and wins game.

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Therefore, logically speaking, we can conclude that 80% of the decks are piloted by bad players. :laugh:
Just joking, but you're right when you say that losing doesn't mean " bad deck ", It may be also because of the player, who doesn't know to fit in every situation on the board on simply hasn't understood what the deck he handles aims for. i'm not saying it's your situation, but often happens this. I am the first to admit that I'm not able to pilot decks which appear to be "simple" as Ichorid, but with merfolks, it's just another story.

And i fully quote the fact that this deck DOESN'T need tarmogoyf to win, too. Splashing green means : tropical island--> wasteland; fetchlands--> stifle; more nonbasics than basics--> Moon effects and B2B hurt you; 4 slots for goyf--> 4 slots lost for something else which , surely, perfectly fitted with the merfolks philosophy.
At this point, if you feel the necessity to put something extern than merfolks, put Dreadnought, at least it's synergic with stifle and doesnt require a 2nd colour. But, surely, it would weaken something else.

I went 3:4 on the renown Iserlohn tourney in Germany with Merfolks. After a good start 3:1 I went a little bit unlucky loosing at least 2 Matches on the edge of a knife.

Wins were against DragonStompy (easy), NGQ/r (good and hard fight against his red direct damage especially), UB Faeries (one game I lost to an online Jitte which was needled Game 3).

Losses against: GoyfSligh (this is an autoloss, boy I was whacked badly seeing a Game 2 Shusher in action and Counters moldering in my hand), Team Amerika (which I lost to bad draw at least one game. Game 1 although 2 Standstill in a row => just found 5 lands and a Vial, Game 2 went on for a while until I couldn't hold back his Tarmogoyf anymore, my folks got decimated by his spot removal slowly but surely and Merfolks are only strong in multiples against Goyf and Stalker for racing), NGQ/w with Counterbalance/Top (Game 1 went on for a while where I could beat him down quite well but got stuck on 2 Mana and couldnt keep up the pressure, Game 2 he got a Counterbalance online after a Counterwar over it and that was Game), Evagreen (which was really really close. I had him down to 2 Game 3, but a Spotremoval and a Tarmogoyf saved the day for him).

Lessons learned in general: Big guys are a problem if they stall the ground or come in the air. Usually you could win by racing them and pumping your guys... but Spotremoval really is bad for your merfolks because it usually is played on Lord or Rejeerey which in turn makes your guys smaller and allows to block favourably for your opponent. In addition it takes away the chances to race which is your only path to victory against lone, bigger creatures. Merfolks are only strong in multiples and you have to have means it stays this way. Therefore I will definitely play Divert/Misdirection SB next time (maybe even Main 1 or 2 Slots). Against Team America or EvaGreen this could turn the matchup either by bending their discard or their spotremoval against them. And against 5 of the Decks running 4 Goyfs main it is needed to keep the capability to race your opponent.

Lessons learned sideboard choices: BtB helped in just one Game (NQG/r) because the guy was running almost no basics. All other list I played against were prepared for BtB or Moon action and played 3-4 basics land of each colour. Propanganda was not worth the slot. Goblins do not see much play in Europe and the only matchup it could shine is Combo with Empty the Warrens or Bridge from below but is probably to slow as compared to Echoing truth. Needles were good against Jitte in Evagreen and Faeries and Jitte is a must counter otherwise. I probably will rather play a third needle then the lonely Jitte myself next time. Hydroblasts were OK but the Goyfsligh matchup is just so very bad that it didnt matter. Maybe Chill would be slightly better (other choices I didn't really find. Next best would be Hibernation, High Seas, Flashfreeze, Douse or Gilded Drake which is all not that great and maybe requires at least 8 SB slots to be effective). On the other hand I am not sure if this matchup is even worth a slot because it is still bad after sideboarding. Divert is a must have for me for sideboard next time especially against decks running B or R Spotremoval for creatures.

Decklist was:

//Lands
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MOR] Mutavault

//Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher

//Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [DS] Aether Vial
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast

Thanks for all the helpful input from this merfolk thread here. It made me play this deck and it was a lot of fun to play (and it actually made me register and post a comment ;) )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Losses against: GoyfSligh (this is an autoloss, boy I was whacked badly seeing a Game 2 Shusher in action and Counters moldering in my hand), Team Amerika (which I lost to bad draw at least one game. Game 1 although 2 Standstill in a row => just found 5 lands and a Vial, Game 2 went on for a while until I couldn't hold back his Tarmogoyf anymore, my folks got decimated by his spot removal slowly but surely and Merfolks are only strong in multiples against Goyf and Stalker for racing), NGQ/w with Counterbalance/Top (Game 1 went on for a while where I could beat him down quite well but got stuck on 2 Mana and couldnt keep up the pressure, Game 2 he got a Counterbalance online after a Counterwar over it and that was Game), Evagreen (which was really really close. I had him down to 2 Game 3, but a Spotremoval and a Tarmogoyf saved the day for him).

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3 Mainboard relics are plenty to stop goyf and tombstalker. It also looks like you could have used the advice on using 2 Whirlpool Riders for the mana flood you drew with the Standstills. Sideboarded echoing truth for stifles should take care of the Tombstalker. I really think this matchup is an autowin. None of their disruption should work on you, and you have vials. Relic is autowin. They have 4 snuff out for spot removal, which shouldn't be enough to kill you unless you play aggressively, but they can't play Tombstalker and Goyf is a 0/1 vs. you for Relic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Lessons learned in general: Big guys are a problem if they stall the ground or come in the air. Usually you could win by racing them and pumping your guys... but Spotremoval really is bad for your merfolks because it usually is played on Lord or Rejeerey which in turn makes your guys smaller and allows to block favourably for your opponent.

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Don't play stupidly. That is to say, expect the mana they saved to be used during your attack on your lord. You can always wait to attack with a Thrasher, or have 2 LoA out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

In addition it takes away the chances to race which is your only path to victory against lone, bigger creatures. Merfolks are only strong in multiples and you have to have means it stays this way. Therefore I will definitely play Divert/Misdirection SB next time (maybe even Main 1 or 2 Slots). Against Team America or EvaGreen this could turn the matchup either by bending their discard or their spotremoval against them.

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What big creatures are there after you turn their Goyf into a 0/1, and make their Tombstalker unplayable? I've only run into Doran, and Loxodon Hierarch, and both of these are easy enough to race.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Lessons learned sideboard choices: BtB helped in just one Game (NQG/r) because the guy was running almost no basics. All other list I played against were prepared for BtB or Moon action and played 3-4 basics land of each colour. Propanganda was not worth the slot. Goblins do not see much play in Europe and the only matchup it could shine is Combo with Empty the Warrens or Bridge from below but is probably to slow as compared to Echoing truth. Needles were good against Jitte in Evagreen and Faeries and Jitte is a must counter otherwise. I probably will rather play a third needle then the lonely Jitte myself next time. Hydroblasts were OK but the Goyfsligh matchup is just so very bad that it didnt matter. Maybe Chill would be slightly better. On the other hand I am not sure if this matchup is even worth a slot because it is still bad after sideboarding. Divert is a must have for me for sideboard next time especially against decks running B or R Spotremoval for creatures.

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Yes, don't copy the sideboard list of this deck if you don't play where the people who made it do. It is always a meta choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Decklist was:

//Lands
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MOR] Mutavault

//Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher

//Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [DS] Aether Vial
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast

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You underestimated the effect Relic has for this deck. It improves goyf sligh, wins against Team America, completely beats Threshold, and does various things against other decks. Also, as I've been arguing for a long time, you need at least 20 creatures in the deck. Any less and you are going too much into the control aspect, but as you found out, this deck can't stall forever. There are few situations where I'd want echoing truth maindeck over relic, since turning a goyf into a 0/1 is better than bouncing it. Killing a terravore is better than bouncing it. Preventing a Tombstalker is slightly better than bouncing it.

Well thx for your quick response. Ah well Whirl Pool Rider to compensate bad luck naaah ;) Most of the times Standstill had good draws. Although, if you propose creature No. 20 there would be one free job for a merfolk in that list. Or it could be 1-3 Dreadnaughts instead?

About the Relics you are quite right. I actually played them after reading here how good they are but decided to go with Echoing Truth thinking it more versatile. Actually they weren't. So as an effect I sided 1-2 Echoing Truth out almost every game. Relique on the opposite was very good. Of course I played with all 3 in Game 2 against Team America but you miss 2 things: you have to draw it (or mulligan for it depending on starting hand) and you have to foresee Stifle: In my Game 2 against TA I could hold off the Goyf quite well being a 2/3 at max for a time ... well but unfortunately as I had to blow it (because Goofy was about to grow), it got stifled :/ something I should have expected from Team America.

Yeah, I played very aggressively knowing that my advantages wouldnt last forever, but maybe I could have sat back a few more times ... hard to say ... thats for the next time then, I surely learned a few things during the tourney again ;) Actually I only had time to breath with a Standstill out but as you could read before that is NO autowin. I definitely think that Team America and EvaGreen could have turned out differently, so a 5:2 should have been possible maybe if I had invested more time in playtesting and SB options (especially Divert/Misdirection). NQG running Counterbalance seems harder but manageable. So with luck and playskill this deck could be ... :D GoyfSligh well maybe running more Mind Harness will do and not seeing a Shusher.

The deck still does not get much attention from my pov. Maybe this changes ... in the tournament half of the opponents went like "uh ah merfolk, i heard of it, oh what? you play stifle?, shit, I didn't know that". Although if this happens everybody is better prepared. I think I like my opponents being unprepared for some more time ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Well thx for your quick response. Ah well Whirl Pool Rider to compensate bad luck naaah ;) Most of the times Standstill had good draws. Although, if you propose creature No. 20 there would be one free job for a merfolk in that list. Or it could be 1-3 Dreadnaughts instead?

About the Relics you are quite right. I actually played them after reading here how good they are but decided to go with Echoing Truth thinking it more versatile. Actually they weren't. So as an effect I sided 1-2 Echoing Truth out almost every game. Relique on the opposite was very good. Of course I played with all 3 in Game 2 against Team America but you miss 2 things: you have to draw it (or mulligan for it depending on starting hand) and you have to foresee Stifle: In my Game 2 against TA I could hold off the Goyf quite well being a 2/3 at max for a time ... well but unfortunately as I had to blow it (because Goofy was about to grow), it got stifled :/ something I should have expected from Team America.

Yeah, I played very aggressively knowing that my advantages wouldnt last forever, but maybe I could have sat back a few more times ... hard to say ... thats for the next time then, I surely learned a few things during the tourney again ;) Actually I only had time to breath with a Standstill out but as you could read before that is NO autowin. I definitely think that Team America and EvaGreen could have turned out differently, so a 5:2 should have been possible maybe if I had invested more time in playtesting and SB options (especially Divert/Misdirection). NQG running Counterbalance seems harder but manageable. So with luck and playskill this deck could be ... :D GoyfSligh well maybe running more Mind Harness will do.

The deck still does not get much attention from my pov. Maybe this changes ... in the tournament half of the opponents went like "uh ah merfolk, i heard of it, o what you play stifle, shit, I didn't know that". Although if this happens everybody is better prepared. I think I like my opponents being unprepared for some more time ;)

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Now you understood how Divert is important in SB. I think that, against team america, you should side out all the stifles (the only purpose is to stifle their fetches, but i assume that you don't play against 2 yrs old children..), and go with all your relics (which, i have to admit, is a house) and the divert, since divert can... misdirect lots, LOTS of thing ( counters, thoughtseizes, SINKHOLES, SNUFF OUTS..).
And, of course, be prepared to side in the diverts too against goyf sligh: just drop a folk, be careful to keep U open, wait for their burn spell and divert it on their lavamancer. It's fucking nuts.
Imo, don't hesitate to play even 4 copies of Divert in side if you're meta is so aggressive: what Phoenix has said is perfectly true, you can't simply copy /paste the Sb lists you find here and get the cards, the sideboard is purely a metagame issue.
And don't play so aggressively against such kind of decks, because they can easily sweep your army away and beat with their fatties. Just pay attention to the "control " role your deck has in the first phases of the game ( denying their mana is great, as well as trying to drop a standstill with a mutavault , if possible), then drop the 'folks and start beating. Of course the way you play differs from every situation you find yourself in, but usually merfolks is not the "drop, beat, drop, beat" goblin approach.


I'm very pleased , however, that you found yourself having a good time with this deck, and I hope that you can find interesting "tips " in this thread.
Keep the Merfolks on ! :smile:

Jeez, it seems there is a lot of action with this deck recently.

In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.

I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.

Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well. I think I like Repeal the best. But it is still lacking somewhat. Certainly we are all interested in exactly how much Relics should be making their way into the main. And using just one with no way to search for it seems a bit weak. But it is the right direction. Tight mana and deep dependence on graveyards are the Achilles Heel of most of our opponents. This should be the direction we are taking imo.

I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux. That isn't always easy.

I will be updating the OP very soon. Please pm me your primer info if you have any detailed analyses to include.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux.

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How is the timing on Relic hard? Just throw it out there asap and keep on removing cards in the yard in your mainphase. If they are running out of cards to dump in their yard pop or you draw an additional one, pop the Relic. Remember that you play the control role in the TA vs. Merfolk matchup, so every turn you gain gives you the oppurtunity to flood the boards with threats and even make your own guys stronger. Also, if you can keep their threats small with Relic, you can wiggle out of the soft lock they aim to create with their LD. That is the way I use Relic in Goblins against TA and it works pretty well.

OOooOOooh Hi Finn, didn't know you still read Merfolks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.

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Yep, this card does seem to be the most helpful. It isn't as autoscoop as I said before, I've won a good number of times due to Sligh not hitting enough burns. This is rare though, so I would still put the match at 30%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.

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I would disagree, I think stifles can be sideboarded out for Echoing Truth. It's much better to bounce the Tombstalker than try to keep them fully mana denied since they only need 2 lands ever to run well, and at 1 island they can cantrip all they want.

Mantis is 100% correct on what should happen during this MU, even though he just plays relic in gobbos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well. I think I like Repeal the best. But it is still lacking somewhat. Certainly we are all interested in exactly how much Relics should be making their way into the main. And using just one with no way to search for it seems a bit weak. But it is the right direction. Tight mana and deep dependence on graveyards are the Achilles Heel of most of our opponents. This should be the direction we are taking imo.

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Relic is easily the reason I won the tournament with this deck. Check out my tournament report a page or two back for more details. Echoing truth is a great card, but I have found it unnecessary in the maindeck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux. That isn't always easy.

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3 of them lets you resolve it early. You do need to pop it early so they don't get Tombstalker out, but almost no one plays thinking that you have a Relic, so a lot of times they will be tapped out turns 2-4, as is their strategy with that deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

I will be updating the OP very soon. Please pm me your primer info if you have any detailed analyses to include.

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Checking the last few pages of the thread would be the best bet. We've gone over many different cards to fill the open slots. Right now I still like the list to be:
4 LoA
4 Reejery
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
2-3 Wakethrasher
1-2 Whirlpool Rider

3 Relic
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Vial

12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

SB:
3 Echoing Truth
2 Propaganda
3 Divert
2 Pithing Needle
2 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast effects

Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.

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Careful, some people find that reason laughable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.

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I don't because of the huge card disadvantage. He doesn't swing, he doesn't even do anything the turn he comes in. He's a huge tempo loss and "in a meta with stalkers and noughts" also means "in a meta with stifle." He might draw out a kill, but that's the most you could expect. We run Relics maindeck so tombstalker shouldn't be a problem, and we can usually race one quite efficiently (even a silvergill + mutavault does the job after they use fetchlands). Dreadnought would be the only reason, but then why shouldn't we run someone like Shapesharer instead?

Because they both suck.

Far too slow, far too inefficient, and if it gets stifled you are already wasting 2 cards on it. The only benefit is that you can drop a standstill if you have him out and then bounce their threats in the meantime. The only problem with that is that popping a standstill is by no means game over for them, even if you do get +2 cards total.

Nice to see Finn returning to this deck. As you can see, we have walked very far with it :laugh:
However, I still can't renounce to completely cutting the ports in this deck, so I returned to playing them in 2x along with wastelands and mutavaults. the results has proven that i were right about the fact that , sometimes, ports make you win the game, really. I think that they're a bit underextimated for the enourmous service they provide, since stealing 1 mana from the opponent per turn really does the difference, and they also increase the effectiveness of tempo cards such as standstill.
Playing 11 islands seemed to me to be risky, but with tests i got that it's a supportable quantity to find a blue source from the first turn.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Waterfront Bouncer has been already mentioned as a possible candidate for that vacating slot which everyone fills with his "personal" merfolks some time ago, but I agree on the fact that it's too slow and such too card- disadvantaging for being included and add decent consistency to the army.
I'd rather play Grimoire thief, at that point (ironic, ofc, even if I did it).
However, it seems that Conflux will bring us a lot fishes, so let's stare at what will exit from that expansion. We hope another Lord, so the deck will be able to be called " Fishes on Roids" :-D

Where have you gotten this information that Conflux will be bringing us fishes? I would love to see that happen but I sadly don't belive so. Perhaps the "blue shard" Esper will give us an artifact merfolk however :)

Boh i read somewhere in this forum that a lots of merfolks would have joined Conflux, but perhaps i read wrong or it was just a joke. I hope it's not ofc, but i think that wizards has already decided to stop printing powerful merfolks, since the good success they have had in standard- of course, they don't care at all about legacy, that's for sure.

Against targeted removal (which seems to be an issue), Waterfront bouncer is still a bit slow, but is CA neutral.

There's a leaked Conflux card list with obvious greenskins (Wandering Goblins, Goblin Outlander & Goblin Razerunners), the blue cards look more artifact and sphinx oriented.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=131996

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Jeez, it seems there is a lot of action with this deck recently.

In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.

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Exactly my observation. Lighning Bolt, Fire/Ice in NQG/r, Smother, Snuff Out in EvaGreen and TA, StoP in NQG/w have more effect than just removing a creature, they weaken your whole team (first target is the LoA then Rejeerey). Thats why a single Divert would have saved the day for me at times. With the Mana denial package Merfolks bring this seems to be a perfect fit. Maybe a 3/1 split with Misdirection. Well I just bought 4 Divert just in case. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.

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As green is not their main color you can try to cut them off that color. They play a lot of fetchies so finding a target shouldnt be a problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well.

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I at least tried Rushing River which has its advantages at times. But i now think that bounce in general is not choice No.1 maindeck. Regarding Potrs, well, there were Games where they could have been useful but Iam not sure running more non blue Manasources because 3 Mutavault (together with Standstill) and 4 Wastelands seem a must have. But I already saw lists with just 11 Islands, 4 Wastelands, 2-3 Mutavaults and 2 Ports.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

As green is not their main color you can try to cut them off that color. They play a lot of fetchies so finding a target shouldnt be a problem.

I at least tried Rushing River which has its advantages at times. But i now think that bounce in general is not choice No.1 maindeck. Regarding Potrs, well, there were Games where they could have been useful but Iam not sure running more non blue Manasources because 3 Mutavault (together with Standstill) and 4 Wastelands seem a must have. But I already saw lists with just 11 Islands, 4 Wastelands, 2-3 Mutavaults and 2 Ports.

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Team America having green isn't a big deal if you have a Relic since 0/1 creatures aren't that scary.

Piceli, how is the 11 island running? I've not had good results with it, mainly for the reasons we discussed. Also, I know ports are good, I'm just wondering if that's going a little too much out of the way for their effect.

Honestly, even with vial out I usually tap out playing something. Saving mana for Port is probably as much of a tempo loss as it is a tempo gain. Maybe you have a different take on it though?

Just used the orb of insight for Conflux and it said 0 merfolks for Conflux :(