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http://www.mananation.com/legacy-storm-primer/
Towards the end are all my SB plans. Main things different than yours in those matchups are I actually like IGG against Folk and Survival as they don't always have Force and you can definitely generate enough mana to IGG back Ritual, Duress, Tutor and beat a Force anyways and I like all the Tutors against Zoo as even on the draw when they kill on 4 you have enough life to Grim unless they have Fireblast.
I'm somewhat new to Legacy and have tried my hand at Merfolk, Dredge and CounterTop Thopter so far (played that cold at Baltimore for my second event ever, because I'm crazy like that). I didn't like any of these decks, so I'm currently building BUG Landstill and ANT--I would ideally like to be able to play a control deck and a combo deck at any point depending on the meta and my mood and the land base between these decks is pretty compatible. This is important as I don't have access to a ton of duals yet (2 Seas, working on a Tropical).
One question I have on the ANT list: assuming I don't have access to Grim Tutors, what is the best swap? I'm thinking possibly +1 Tendrils (likely Tutor target anyway) and possibly a 4th Chain of Vapor main deck. I have noticed a lot of survival lists playing one searchable Teeg main deck, probably for matches such as this, NoPro and Dredge. Would that be a decent option? I could still play 3 in the board, as I thoroughly believe in that card and liked it in Dredge as well.
Edit: another question. Reverent Silence over Back to Nature? It seems more dangerous with Ad Nauseum and ups the required storm count by 3, but I'm assuming the upside is that it is harder for Countertop to stop than Back to Nature (they have to use Jace on top). Is that right? Are there any pros/cons I'm missing? Is it worth the trade-off, considering CB is so bad anyway and you'd rather have Grip there?
Thanks for the advice! Sorry to noob up your thread :-P. Back to online trading for the cards.
P.S. - Ari, your storm primer was like a birthday cake in my brain. Beautiful. Especially for people like me who haven't played since Pox was a deck to beat.
Very well written primer Ari. Thanks for this write-up.
Got a couple of questions:
- Why don't you run Xantid Swarm? The card has a huge impact in the Merfolk and Vengevival matchups.
- Don't you agree Grim Tutor is terrible?
- Don't you think AdN is pretty awful without any Chrome Moxen at all?
- 17 land? Cant you run less?
That, or +1 AdN, or +2 SDT if you haven't maindecked them yet, or +2 C.Mox, or +2 more disruption spells (total of 8). You might want to continue experimenting on your build until you decide on what you really need.Quote:
Originally Posted by justindz
It's my first time posting on this thread so be gentle. I play combo (AnT,SnT), control (BUG Standstill) and Counter-Painter.
The primer was well written and, though I'm not a storm beginner, it was nice that you explained some of the things that get taken for granted so that new people won't flood with easy questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
I have some questions though. Im a little worried that your plan in most of your matchups is "Duress the problem and win". While post board you get at least 6 more hate answers, I worry that game 1 vs blue can be rough. Did you ever want the full 8 Duress maindeck?
Also, just kinda mimicing everyone here, but Grim just feels so so bad. Id rather have something like top.
Speaking of which, If you play tops, you could play some Chrome Mox as you wouldn't have to use a card every turn to get good draws. Just a thought.
Finally, this:
was hilarious. At least you're honest.Quote:
As for this versus the various Doomsday decks, I’ll be honest. I have no clue what Doomsday is doing
I recently played UBw ANT to an amazing 1-2-drop record at an event with 30-something players.
Here's my exciting report:
Round 1 -
BW Deaguy Ale:
Game 1: I play out my artifact mana, hide relevant cards from Hymn with Brainstorm and get a SDT in play. I soon find AdN in my top3 and he's dead.
Game 2: He starts with black Leyline in play and Cabal Therapies me (and misses). He plays Needle on Polluted Delta, which is extremely awkard for me since I have 2 of them in hand. I draw a basic Swamp and my hand is land, IGG, 2x DRit, IT. He hardcasts white Leyline, which isn't very problematic since AdN can draw into the bounce. He has no threat on the board, but I still think I'm dead since the IGG in my hand makes it impossible to get hellbent (because of his black Leyline), unless I draw Brainstorm or LED. Fortunately, he helps me out by playing Gerrard's Verdict and I can IT into AdN into bounce and Tendrils.
Round 2 -
Merfolk:
Game 1: I know he plays Merfolk so I lead with an early Duress and see 2x Daze, Spell Pierce and guys. I take the Pierce and after eating a Wasteland and some beatz, I attempt to off when he has a ton of pressure on board and I can pay for the two Dazes, unfortunately he drew a 3rd one.
Game 2: Turn 1 IGG kill with protection. I'm a powerful wizard!
Game 3: I have a SDT in play, protection in hand and AdN on top of my library, so the plan pretty straightforward. Unfortunately he Wastelands 2 of my lands, including 1 of my 2 white sources. I'm left with 2 fetches, Chrome Mox (blue) and SDT in play. My hand is 2 LEDs and Chant and I have AdN on top of my library. I'm in a spot where I will take 8 damage and go to 6 if I pass the turn, so it seems best to just go for it. I can't play Chant because I would have to fetch a land and shuffle AdN away in order to do so. I have enough mana to beat Spell Pierce and Daze at the same time, but will lose to a FoW. It turns out he had one of each.
Round 3 -
UR Sneak Attack
Game 1: He plays a couple of Volcanic Islands so I put him on some kind of tempo deck. I spend a lot of time playing around cards he doesn't have, like Stifle and Vendilion Clique, but then I suddenly get hit in the face for 15 and my lands are gone.
Game 2: I pick his hand apart with discard and kill him with IGG when he's tapped out (he had no FoW, but 2x Spell Pierce and 1 Daze)
Game 3: I ritual out Thoghtseize (meets FoW, pitching another FoW) and Confidant. I get SDT in play and see Chant in the top3. I have no mana left to play the Chant in case something bad happens, so I play out an LED. On his turn he casts Seething Song. I consider Chanting him here, but I want to get the Emrakul out of his hand and I figure he will be able to hardcast Sneak Attack soon anyway, since he has 3 lands in play. He puts a hasted Emrakul in play and I have to discard my hand beautiful 4-card hand to LED, spin top and play Chant with kicker in order to survive. I Thoughtseize him and see that he has 2x Daze and lands, so he's basically in topdeck mode. Confidant rebuilds my hand and beats him down to 10. He has one final draw step to find a new Emrakul before I can Tendrils him, but as you might have guessed, he got there. obv!!!1
Overall, the deck still felt powerful. SDT is still insane in ANT, and it's one of the few reasons you might want to play this deck over TES. The Merfolk player drew too much disruption, combined with a lot of pressure, and I felt like it wouldn't have mattered if I had been playing TES instead. Before the tournament, I convinced myself that I didn't really need Xantid Swarm for the Merfolk matchup, but I was obviously a big idiot for thinking that was the case.
FWIW, I've been playing with +2 SDT, -2 Grim Tutor. Not the greatest, but I prefer top over tutor because I always felt like I was shooting myself in the foot whenever I playd it.
Edit: Primer was a good read and well structured. I got a laugh out of the Doomsday analysis.
To all whom who consider Grim Tutor to be clunky (and, let' s say it, too much expensive), I'd recommend playing this bombs configuration:
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
This is probably the best ANT can still offer. Of course it's kind of a low threat density, so you have to support it with an adequate number of cantrips. I'd suggest running SDT because you absolutely need a steady way to dig into the cards above and not being stuck on controllish hands or acceleration-only ones (happens a lot since you're running between 18 and 19 pieces).
I'd also say that, with 2 Ad Nauseam, 3 Chrome Mox is the optimal choice. Card sucks and we all know this, but it's really necessary if you're planning to put half of your aim of winning in doing it via Ad Nauseam.
No bullshit about running 17 lands, 2 of them should be Moxes and a third one would be optimal.
This is even more true if you're running Thoughtseize. Also, remember that after Ad Nauseam you must flip an Infernal and a LED 90% of the times (unless you get the Tendrils directly), so here Mox helps you to increase the number of cards drawn, and SDT is pretty useful since it can combo with Ponder and see you a total of 7 cards.
I won't go further into the protection suite discussion, but I'd suggest watching carefully at the actual tiers, and then ask yourself whether Duress effects are superior to Chant ones against that horde or Merfolk, Vengevines, Dredge and Goblins, plus TES.
I've been using 2 Tendrils of Agony. It works well and makes it so I don't need to flip IT with LED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
And Grim Tutor is just too much money :P I'd rather buy more duals.
How many times did you open a perfect and balanced hand ala Rite, petal, landx2, chant, X, Tendrils, and wished that second Tendrils was an Ad Nauseam? How many times instead did it allow you to stop? Because I've always been intrigued with the double Tendrils concept, but it's a plain dead card in initial hand, just as much as IGG is without Infernal tutor and without the will to test your luck into the "acantrip-into-another-cantrip" adventure.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Perhaps it's just better to go with the second Bomb. We're not Vintage, we're not going to cast lethal Tendrils without engines. At least, not without Chain of Vapor.
List for reference:Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
15 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
45 Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Preordain
2 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Rebuild
1 Krosan Grip
1 Reverant Silence
1 Tropical Island
I'm still testing the list, but so far, I haven't wished my second tendrils were Ad Nauseam. I'm sure it'll come up at some point.
Early testing shows the list goldfishes on average turn 2 or 3, with heavy disruption hands winning turn 3.
Can you tell me against which deck will you board in Dark Confidant and what you board out?
And another simply question from me - what is the difference between ANT and TES?
TES usually plays with Rainbow lands (C. Brass, Gemstone M.) It has 4x Burning Wish for Empty the warrens/Tendrils/Grapeshot/Diminishing Returns/disruption/anti-hate and it also has EtW maindecked. Basically more outs than ANT now that Mystical is banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saff
I just want to point out that i made a 2land Belcher style with the concept of this deck. but i dont know where to post my decklist. but i do want to report that its pretty consistant at winning turn 2-3. maybe i should post the list in the belcher section though cause i dont want to cause up a stir here
I've cast lethal tendrils without chain of vapor numerous times. Its the only way your ever going to beat landstill. 2 Tendrils also allows you to mini tendrils for the win, which can be especially helpful against aggro decks such as merfolk. Also, flipping a tendrils on Ad Nauseam is never a dead card, whereas flipping another ad naus is an extra point of damage as well as a very dead card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Your argument stands, except that Tendrils is an initial dead card, whereas Ad Nauseam has "win now" written near to its name. Also, Landstill is a bye, you just stand there and shot him with chants or duresses (chants are better obv) until one resolves and then you close the game. You have like 300 turns to build your hand and have a 2 dmg clock on your neck. Not that scary, I'd say.
About the Mini-Tendrils: I'd dare to say the only time you're winning with a little ToA is when the opponent is already at 16 lives or less. This does not happen that frequently, unless Zoo has already fetched 4 times. In that case, you're already pretty dead.
Keep in mind that bursting your hand into a non-lethal Tendrils rarely makes you win, you're left at topdeck mode and the opponent needs like 3-4 turns to bring you down, given the size of nowadays' Legacy creatures.
Nonetheless I'd still try with 1 Ad Nauseam and 2 Tendrils (I also play 2 Chain of Vapor maindeck for that matter), but I'm skeleptical.
Can anyone explain "mini-tendrilses" to me.
At best, you have 7 cards in hand, if you have more, than you probably win.
If you use 4-6 cards of those you have 1-3 left. And the opponent has 8-12 life left.
What's the next plan? You need to draw 2-4 cards that you can play in a chain to another tendrils to finish the game.
Do you do this when you have a top in play to setup the new hand or what?
Give me a realistic example please :)
Mini tendrils is a ToA that doesn't kill the opponent. Like if you got to 7 storm before casting tendrils they take 16 life loss and you gain 16 life. This rarely kills the opponent.
One way to get lethal tendrils with a 7 card hand is with this hand:
Chrome mox
Chrome mox
Lotus petal
Lotus Petal
LED
Chain of Vapor/hurkyl's recall
Tendrils of Agony.
You play out all the artifact mana (note that chrome mox can be any artifact), bounce it all back to your hand via chain of vapor/hurkyl's recall, play it again to get to over 10 storm then tendrils them. This is a more common play in vintage though I haven't seen it done in legacy that many times because you rarely get a hand full of artifacts, chain of vapor, and tendrils.
On the 2 tendrils debate. I would play only one tendrils because ad nauseam as a 2 of allows you to get broken draws more often while 2 tendrils is worthless since you only need to cast one to win the game. Landstill is a joke for us. Their lack of a clock gives us so much set up time it isn't even funny; the joke is that you could keep a 7 land hand and still win against landstill via drawing cards in your draw phase for 10 turns straight. It only becomes bad if they have the CB/Top lock in their deck.
Thank you very much. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
That doesn't really explain the example of a mini tendrils. My personal preference for winning with mini-tendrils is to infernal tutor for a 2nd copy of tendrils, and then use cantrips/mana to generate roughly 5-8 storm, and then leave enough rituals/cantrips to do it again the next turn. You usually just don't have enough U mana to storm up to lethal, therefore you pass the turn and do it again next turn. I like this strategy because it gets around force of will nicely. It also doesn't matter what your life total is. You just get as low as possible, and then go off. Ideally you'd build up enough storm to kill them in one turn, but if you can't, you set it up to hit them with a second tendrils the next turn (or that turn if you have enough mana).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual