[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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Originally Posted by Muradin

After loads of testing I came to the conclusion that I like the maindeck proposed by HokusSchmokus here the best for its high consistency and conservative card choices. I have already played Ichorid in 12-13 real tournaments, but against my firm believe, running 3 Ichorid seems to be the right choice.

For the board however I have different views. I don't think one should sacrifice the combo matchup. There are so many great, free cards one can use there and that make it very winable. This is especially important as usually I hate overboarding for certain matchups and weakening the decks own pretty good ability to play arround crypts with discard outlets too much.

Chalice of the Void was underperforming in testing against combo, as well as mindbreak trap. Much better results came from Leyline of Sanctity and Unmask, as they are proactive and mildly useful for some other matchups. Wouldn't board Leyline against Crypts though.

Firestorm has been pretty basic so far, giving me good results against Tribal decks and Zoo, where I had been having difficulties before, once they got a real sideboard with some real hate in it.

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Glad that you like it, I must say I had similar concerns about the 3 Ichorids at first, but testing convinced me otherwise.
About the Sideboard, well it's meta dependent. I don't have a lot of Combo-Players around here, and the few I have played against so far either crushed me or , if I got to untap at least once, folded to Cabal Therapy. Chosen from the Sideboard was enough then.
If you're meta is Combo-heavy, of course you should adapt to it. There only is one problem: the actual alternatives. Leyline and Unmask just seem too sub-par for my matters.Exspecially Leyline. Adding another mulligan-factor to a deck that already has starting hand issues is not my game.

And Edith just called me, saying maybe it is worth cutting some sb- slots for Stifle, to beat Lands or Stormcombo.Other Cards might me Duress or Thoughtseize. Maybe Hypnotist, but might be too slow. Any Ideas?

I'm running a single Sphinx as my only maindeck DR target, but am still only using 2 DR. I probably don't have to win on turn two when I'm hopefully going off with Sphinx, but it will certainly set up a turn three win which is good enough against everything but TES game one. Then I want to run a third DR in my side as well as FKZ, Chosen, and Terastdon as targets to bring in. Is this a good idea going into a completely unknown meta?

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

I'm running a single Sphinx as my only maindeck DR target, but am still only using 2 DR. I probably don't have to win on turn two when I'm hopefully going off with Sphinx, but it will certainly set up a turn three win which is good enough against everything but TES game one. Then I want to run a third DR in my side as well as FKZ, Chosen, and Terastdon as targets to bring in. Is this a good idea going into a completely unknown meta?

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Chosen and Terastodon are very good SB cards,the third DR would be a waste because you need the slots, imho.
As for FKZ, why run him? I don't get the point of this card.

BTW I did a little testing this night and it seems that I unerestimated Leyline as an Anti-Combo card. It really helpts the storm matchups. My only problem is and was what to cut from the sb for it. I definately don't have room for more than 3 of those. I thought about cutting Firestorms, as Zoo and goblins are not really hard from my experiance , and Merfolk should be winnable at least. Current SB looks like this:

Meta with Lands.dec ( I never really thought I would dedicate a SB slot to that matchup, but hey, I just got raped 15 fricking times in a row by lands. Thats not working. Plus, Razer is not bad against combo , too.)

1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Realm Razer
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim

or not considering lands.dec either
a)1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
or
b)1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
or
c)1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim

For an unknown meta it depends on how large the Tournament is. I just can't decide as I want 2 Rays in my SB. Maybe I would go with b) if GP Amsterdam was tomorrow.That, or Razer.

So why 4 Nature's Claim AND 4 Grudge? Do you ever board both or are the claims simply VS Leyline? How do you use each of those cards?

So far my plan has been to be stone dead VS Leyline and to bring in Firestorm against decks playing it and trying to win with hardcast guys. Storm combo is way more frequently played than Leyline of the Void and thus I am comfortable with losing against it. However, having Nature's claim has definitely its merits. Still, I am not sure about what you use it for.

Would you bring them in against Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo with unknown sideboard cards? I definitely wouldn't.

My board:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
4 Leyline of Sanctitiy
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terrastodon
1 Ray of Revelation

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Originally Posted by Muradin

So why 4 Nature's Claim AND 4 Grudge? Do you ever board both or are the claims simply VS Leyline? How do you use each of those cards?

So far my plan has been to be stone dead VS Leyline and to bring in Firestorm against decks playing it and trying to win with hardcast guys. Storm combo is way more frequently played than Leyline of the Void and thus I am comfortable with losing against it. However, having Nature's claim has definitely its merits. Still, I am not sure about what you use it for.

Would you bring them in against Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo with unknown sideboard cards? I definitely wouldn't.

My board:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Firestorm
4 Leyline of Sanctitiy
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Terrastodon
1 Ray of Revelation

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Nature's Claim is not so much against Leyline, because Leyline requires agressive mulligans and that slows down their deck too much most of the time(the reason I am not sure about SB leyline of sanctity). I usually bring them in against leyline too, though, because hardcasting things seem to be too slow.. What it really is good for is Enchantress and Moat and stuff. I never want to go without Nature's Claim, ever. The same for Grudges.
Firestorms, on the other hand improve matchups that are perfectly winnable without it.

My reason is that Leyline of Sanctity is strong against combo, because you are not necessarily forced to mull into it. I'd definitely keep a fast opener (dredger, outlet, land, carddraw) without it as well. Just like goblins wouldn't mull a Lakey + Siege Gang + Wasteland hand either.

I still found decent openers (for example no carddraw but a leyline) still making it against combo quite often.

If Nature's claim is against Enchantress and Moat, my experience has taught me 3 things:

a) Those decks dont see much play at all, combo in its different variants is much more commonly played than all of those decks together.
b) Terrastodon + 1-2 Ray of Revelation are perfectly enough to be prepared for those decks compared with Cabal Therapy.
c) You don't want to mull for Nature's Claim as well, just as for Leyline of Sanctitiy. And as stated before, I don't advise to mull into it if you opener without it seems good enough. Both cards are there to give you a better shot in an otherwise difficult matchup, but aren't "I win" cards and thus shouldn't be mulled for agressively.

Ancient Grudge is THE sideboard card because it exactly doesn't have the disadvantage that it has to be in your opener in order to be useful. I wouldn't leave without those either and my testing has shown that it is definitely superior to Pithing Needle and all the other options (especially since Survival is gone AND LEDless builds that can support enough colored mana postboard are the variant putting up 90% of all results)

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Originally Posted by Muradin

My reason is that Leyline of Sanctity is strong against combo, because you are not necessarily forced to mull into it. I'd definitely keep a fast opener (dredger, outlet, land, carddraw) without it as well. Just like goblins wouldn't mull a Lakey + Siege Gang + Wasteland hand either.

I still found decent openers (for example no carddraw but a leyline) still making it against combo quite often.

If Nature's claim is against Enchantress and Moat, my experience has taught me 3 things:

a) Those decks dont see much play at all, combo in its different variants is much more commonly played than all of those decks together.
b) Terrastodon + 1-2 Ray of Revelation are perfectly enough to be prepared for those decks compared with Cabal Therapy.
c) You don't want to mull for Nature's Claim as well, just as for Leyline of Sanctitiy. And as stated before, I don't advise to mull into it if you opener without it seems good enough. Both cards are there to give you a better shot in an otherwise difficult matchup, but aren't "I win" cards and thus shouldn't be mulled for agressively.

Ancient Grudge is THE sideboard card because it exactly doesn't have the disadvantage that it has to be in your opener in order to be useful. I wouldn't leave without those either and my testing has shown that it is definitely superior to Pithing Needle and all the other options (especially since Survival is gone AND LEDless builds that can support enough colored mana postboard are the variant putting up 90% of all results)

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You are right about Grudges. But NAture's Claim has the big advantage of beating leylines, too. Ray often doesn't do that. I really like Firestorms, but I start to think I don't really need them.

Yay. Cool to see that this thread is active again. It's been over a month I think.

I'm really glad to see that Torremond's German LEDless 'Konkurs' list is being discussed and found very good now. In my opinion he managed to bring McCall's approaches to perfection with his list. I play it (or at least lists that are very close to it, depends on the meta as well) for some time now, and haven't looked back ever since.

So these are my 0.02 on the discussions of the last 2 pages.

Bloodghast-Paradise-Salvage package:
This has already been discussed a lot. Simply put, I totally agree with what HokusSchmokus said about that one or two pages ago (BVB ftw btw !). It's really not worth diluting our whole mana base. REALLY not !

Maindecked DR targets (Iona, FKZ, Sphinx and the like):

This has also been discussed so many times. Well, the question we all have to ask ourselves is: do we need, I mean really NEED one or more DR targets to win games?

If one's answer is NO, then just leave them out, you'll be ok with 2 DRs main and pack a Chosen and a Tera into your sideboard and you will be happy until the end of days.

If the answer is: I don't know if I need it, I just don't want to wait until my next turn where I can stomp my opponent into the ground with my 20 Zombies and my Troll that's got a bigger a** than J-Lo, I absolutely want to win more with FKZ or Iona..., well then I can't help you. But I will tell you not to complain if you mulligan into oblivion with hands that contain 2 FKZ, a Sphinx and 2 DR.

However I totally understand those who say that they REALLY need one (or two?) DR targets main, because they know the risk, as well as the reason they want to play them. And because their desicion is based on a lot of thorough playtesting.

For example, even though I will play 90% of tournaments without maindecked DR targets, I just can't deny the power and usefulness of Iona. Yes, Iona, not FKZ or anything else, just Iona. Why? Well, just because my own expierience has shown me that she actually wins several games, not a lot of, but several games, which no Troll could ever win for me. Those games are mainly against Lands, Combo (Storm) and of course the occasional I-don't-know-what-games, where she just wins because she's Iona. That happens as well of course. So for some specific tournaments, in specific metagames or simply if my stomach tells me I need to, I will sleeve up an Iona for a tourney. Only one singleton, nothing else. And 2 DR are perfectly fine then. I don't want to get it out each game to 'win more'. I just want her to help me win some games I couldn't win without her. And sometimes, that's worth the 3% of hands you have to mulligan because of her (I combined the chance that she's in your opener with the average percentage of 6 card hands I usually mull), at least for me.

So why not FKZ, Sphinx, Hypnotist or anything else?
As of Hypnotist: Iona + 1-2 Cabal Therapy >> Hypnotist, that's for sure. FKZ is not played because he needs Sphinx to be efective. And that requires another slot as well as the 3rd DR , so 2 more slots in the end. Not acceptable ! Consistency is more important. (I actually believe that the Sphinx+FKZ plan requires the 3rd DR. If one really dedicates so many slots only to get the 2nd turn win, one has to make sure that the 2nd DR is actually hit). Aside from that, I hate that the FKZ plan is so dependent on Bridges. A random Mogg Fanatic on your opponent's side of the field makes the 3 slot investment completely useless...

Why not a lone Sphinx? Because she doesn't help in any situation. She only finds more Bridges, Narcos and CTs. And she is dependent on Bridges. All in all, she's just 'win more'. Not good.

Why not a lone FKZ? Because half the time you get him as well as a DR into your grave by turn 2, he doesn't win instantly without Sphinx. And that makes him strictly inferior to Iona if you think about it.

Inkwell Leviathan/Empyrial Archangel/Sphinx of the Steel Wind and stuff: The definition of Win more. Simply not worth it.

Terastodon/Woodfall Primus: I wouldn't blame anyone for playing one of those as a metagame call. But I think they're better off in the sideboard. There we have to play them anyway, so why sacrifice the maindeck slot. Don't we win enough games 1 anyway?

So as you see, I don't just slap in the DR targets. As I said, I mostly play without any main. I don't occasionally play Iona because she's 'better' than Troll (which she is), but because she is always useful, never a dead card (unless in your opener of course), not dependent on Bridges, and most importantly she solves some situations nothing else could solve. An example would be the Storm matchup. If you're in your 2nd turn and your opponent can kill you next turn, then a GGT won't be enough. You can try to therapy them, but either they have the Brainstorm to protect their hand or you don't hit the most important combo piece blindly. But I've never ever seen a ANT/TES recover from a second turn CT for Burning Wish plus Iona on Black. That's just game over, seeing the fact that you'll probably kill them next turn, or at least get them low enough that they can't Ad Nauseam any more. How should they solve that within one turn? And post board she's a nice second DR out, the other being Ancestor's Chosen.
A second example is the lands matchup. If you manage Iona on Green, the only way they can realistically win is either find their singleton Karakas or get the perfect Waste-Tabernacle lock, but all that without Crop Rotation, Mana Bond, Exploration and Life from The Loam. Especially Post board, Terastodon followed by Iona is simply the best way to beat Lands over all. Excapt Realm Razer if you have that slot left.

@ Steel Sabotage: Bad card. Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor laugh at it. The countering doesn't help on the draw.

Just for the reference, this is my current list: I really like it and honestly wouldn't change anything now.

Mana base:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
(4 Cephalid Coliseum)

Dredgers:

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Discard Outlets:

4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study

Draw Engine:

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Other:

4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return

Sideboard:

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen

In the main, the singleton Iona could replace the Darkblast. Or the 3rd Thug, for I've really come to like the Darkblast lately.
In the sideboard, one Realm Razer could replace either the Terastodon or one Firestorm, depending on the meta. Also, Leyline of Sanctity could possibly come in over Firestorms in a Combo-heavy and Aggro-light metagame. But that hasn't been the case for me up to now.

What would you cut for a singleton Iona then, considering your current MD?


PS: BvB , eternal pride.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

What would you cut for a singleton Iona then, considering your current MD?

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It was easier for me to simply cut a Thug back when I played 4 of them. But since I play Darkblast over the 4th Thug now, it's a bit harder as I want to keep both the Darkblast as well as 3 Thugs. But still it would be one of those I guess.

I also remember simply playing the Iona as card number 61 when I just decided to play her some seconds before I had to hand in the decklist. That wasn't really a problem either xP. Having 61 cards matters roughly once in 40 games, which I was ok with.

But for the moment I'm happy with my list without Iona anyway.

Im putting Ichorid together and this is the decklist I have so far.

Creatures:

4* Golgari Grave-Troll
4* Stinkweed Imp
3* Golgari Thug
4* Narcomoeba
4* Putrid Imp
3* Ichorid
3* Tireless Tribe
2* Cephalid Sage
1* Flame-Kin Zealot
1* Iona

Other Spells:

4* Bridge from Below
4* Breakthrough
4* Careful Study
3* Cabal Therapy
3* Dread Return

Lands:

4* City of Brass
4* Gemstone Mine
3* Cephalid Coliseum
2* Tarnished Citadel


Sideboard:

4* Chain of Vapor
4* Leyline of the Void
4* Ancient Grudge
1* Cabal Therapy
1* Woodfall Primus
1* Ancestor's Chosen


And also, what do you guys think about lotus petal?

1) Too many maindeck DR targets. I started with 4 a long time ago, and now I'm down to 1 (Iona right now, sometimes Woodfall Primus or Terastodon), as it is, too many of your targets are win-more, not lose-less (which is the point of DRing targets)
2) Not enough Cephalid Coliseums. 4 is the right number because they can't be countered by anything but stifle and they dig better than study
3) Not enough Tireless Tribe. This man is an all star--he is how you win games 2 and 3, and he's more resilient than Imp.
4) You want 4 Ichorid in your 75 versus decks where you will have to go long, and where they have Path/Swords.
5) SB based on metagame reads. Right now, I'm liking Firestorm, and I like to have a Ray available, but Leyline was in there back in the Survival days, and its time might come again. Find some Nature's Claim and test those as well--you might like them--I do, but it comes and goes.
6) I like therapy main, but it is admittedly better if you are a sniper.

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Im putting Ichorid together and this is the decklist I have so far.

List

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

1) Too many maindeck DR targets. I started with 4 a long time ago, and now I'm down to 1 (Iona right now, sometimes Woodfall Primus or Terastodon), as it is, too many of your targets are win-more, not lose-less (which is the point of DRing targets)
2) Not enough Cephalid Coliseums. 4 is the right number because they can't be countered by anything but stifle and they dig better than study
3) Not enough Tireless Tribe. This man is an all star--he is how you win games 2 and 3, and he's more resilient than Imp.
4) You want 4 Ichorid in your 75 versus decks where you will have to go long, and where they have Path/Swords.
5) SB based on metagame reads. Right now, I'm liking Firestorm, and I like to have a Ray available, but Leyline was in there back in the Survival days, and its time might come again. Find some Nature's Claim and test those as well--you might like them--I do, but it comes and goes.
6) I like therapy main, but it is admittedly better if you are a sniper.

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This.

The only point I wouldn't agree 100% is 5). I only play 3 Ichorids and that has always been the perfect number for me. But that's matter of preference anyway.

And I would personally never play less than 4 Therapies main. I wouldn't even think about moving one to the sb. But I know that some people do, so I won't blame anyone for that.

As of Lotus Petal, I suppose it would take over slots from lands if someone wanted to play it. But that is inacceptable, as we can't afford to lose a land after one single activation. I'd rather take the 3 damage from Tarnished Citadel all day long. Having permanent mana sources is too important, especially post-board.
I see that Petal can in one out of maybe 40 games achieve a turn 1 win. But that risk is not worth taking imho. And even then, you need another Land in order for it to work. Our lands have to work even if they're the only rainbow land we have in our opener. And Petal doesn't.

Accidentally double posted. Sorry.

In regards to the german lists:

I like the maindeck, in recent months, when not playing ANT and toying with dredge I found myself not really caring about Sphinx of lost truths too much, like I already had a huge army of zombies, and I could have just as well made a huge troll instead of dredging with sphinx to dread return for the FKZ kill. Which I also found myself using the FKZ kill as a crutch, but when I went back I realized I didn't need it as much to win since I already had the board well clogged up and swinging for lethal next turn/etc.

so about the sideboard:

I can get behind the
4 firestorm
1 terrastodon
1 ancestor's chosen

but this is where it starts to bother me:
4 grudge
4 claim
1 ray

sure the ray is enchantment removal, cool, got that, but do you really need 9x anti-hate cards in your board essentially overlapping 8/5 in terms of artifacts/ enchantments? I think it's a bit overkill, and a waste of sideboard space, like how often do you board in all 4 grudges and/or all 4 claims?

and also how many anti hate cards are you realistically siding in?

I think the board can be streamlined to have more answers for more decks/ problems(other DR targets?). So what are the rough match ups? and where can the anti hate package be shaved?

I personally have not tested sideboard games so have no idea, all my friends just like to play a lot of game ones(WTF?)

I'm probably going to be working on adjusting this soon but just wanted to post to see if any else had any ideas.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

In regards to the german lists:

I like the maindeck, in recent months, when not playing ANT and toying with dredge I found myself not really caring about Sphinx of lost truths too much, like I already had a huge army of zombies, and I could have just as well made a huge troll instead of dredging with sphinx to dread return for the FKZ kill. Which I also found myself using the FKZ kill as a crutch, but when I went back I realized I didn't need it as much to win since I already had the board well clogged up and swinging for lethal next turn/etc.

so about the sideboard:

I can get behind the
4 firestorm
1 terrastodon
1 ancestor's chosen

but this is where it starts to bother me:
4 grudge
4 claim
1 ray

sure the ray is enchantment removal, cool, got that, but do you really need 9x anti-hate cards in your board essentially overlapping 8/5 in terms of artifacts/ enchantments? I think it's a bit overkill, and a waste of sideboard space, like how often do you board in all 4 grudges and/or all 4 claims?

and also how many anti hate cards are you realistically siding in?

I think the board can be streamlined to have more answers for more decks/ problems(other DR targets?). So what are the rough match ups? and where can the anti hate package be shaved?

I personally have not tested sideboard games so have no idea, all my friends just like to play a lot of game ones(WTF?)

I'm probably going to be working on adjusting this soon but just wanted to post to see if any else had any ideas.

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I alkways board them in.
For example, I like to watch my opponent while Sideboarding. Against Artifact hate, or if my opponent boards in 3 cards, I ALWAYS board in all 4 Grudges, maybe some other things, but always all 4 Grudges and no less. SAme for Nature's Claim against Enchantress or if my Opponent boards in 4 hate cards and is capable of supporting Enchant-Hate. And then I even board in 2 Rays, too. You seem to underestimate the power of those cards.

it is really not a rare thing for me to board like 8 cards. I don't know what you want to cut, but meh, try it.

I was playing Ichorid with some friends, and someone suggested a transformational board.
I figure it's only really plausible if you're one of those weirdos who play duals over rainbow lands, but he asked me to post this here to see the response.

Roughly it was:
1 Underground Sea
2 Unmask
4 Tombstalker
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul

the idea being that you can use Emrakul to recycle your grave, and then eventually show and tell him for the win.
I think it's a bad idea, but could potentially be worked into a less bad one.
Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by woremak

I was playing Ichorid with some friends, and someone suggested a transformational board.
I figure it's only really plausible if you're one of those weirdos who play duals over rainbow lands, but he asked me to post this here to see the response.

Roughly it was:
1 Underground Sea
2 Unmask
4 Tombstalker
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul

the idea being that you can use Emrakul to recycle your grave, and then eventually show and tell him for the win.
I think it's a bad idea, but could potentially be worked into a less bad one.
Any thoughts?

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Same here. Complete BS.
You have no outs against hate other than trap, you have to actually draw cards instead of dredging them(wtf?Oo) to make tombstalker and emrakul work, well, you don't do anything.And you are having fun with situations like this:
Yeah, I only need 1 more Moeba or Ichorid to DR xyz, lets dredge 6, ooooooh Emrakul.You lose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by woremak

I was playing Ichorid with some friends, and someone suggested a transformational board.
I figure it's only really plausible if you're one of those weirdos who play duals over rainbow lands, but he asked me to post this here to see the response.

Roughly it was:
1 Underground Sea
2 Unmask
4 Tombstalker
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul

the idea being that you can use Emrakul to recycle your grave, and then eventually show and tell him for the win.
I think it's a bad idea, but could potentially be worked into a less bad one.
Any thoughts?

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There are a lot of reasons why such a transformational sb is a bad idea for this deck. The first one is the most obvious one: What on earch does this sideboard do if your opponent drops a Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon or Yixlid Jailer ? Scoop I guess. Your graveyard will be completely useless. And the mathematical chance for you to get three lands, Show and Tell and Emrakul into your hand is really tiny.

Second, the card Show and Tell itself is so counterproductive for Dredge. You basically have to have it in your opener in order to keep the theoretical chance to ever cast it. Or of course you give up your whole Dredge game plan...

Third, the card Emrakul is so counterproductive for Dredge. I mean, really... I also don't understand the plan: Recycle your grave wth Emrakul until you Show&Tell it into play. Someone has to explain that to me.

And the Tombstalker is just funny. Counterproductive to both the Show and Tell-Emrakul plan and the Dredge plan ^^

So I would really not run a transformational sb. REALLY not.

Is playing with no DR targets main actually superior to the FKZ/ Sphinx package? I have a lot of fun going the FKZ way because it feels more combo; however, I'm very new to the deck and I want consistency over more fun. Maybe only Iona and 11 dredgers instead of 12? Right now I run 2 Sphinx and 1 FKZ.