Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by oarsman

This just happened in an online 2man, so it isn't anything significant, but I thought it was so cool that I wanted to share it.


Game 3 against ANT with Past in Flames

Going first, I mull into 4 land (including Karakas), Top, Venser. I am not thrilled but I keep.
I play Top and he starts with Ponder off Gemstone Mine.
I play a fetch and on his turn he does the same. My Top shows a Counterbalance.
I untap for turn 3 and play the enchantment, leaving up a fetchland, knowing my top two cards are both land.
He Brainstorms with the Gemstone Mine in response. So I know he doesn't have Decay yet. Then he breaks his fetch.
He passes his turn 3 with no play, and I realize this is going to be AWESOME. Obviously he is going to Decay the Counterbalance at the end of my turn, and then untap and try to kill me, a task at which he would likely succeed.
My fourth turn I draw one of the fetchlands and play it. My hand is Venser, Karakas, and maybe something else that is not relevant.
End of turn, he casts the Decay, exhausting the Gemstone. I fetch, and Venser the Abrupt Decay back to his hand.
He did not draw (or shuffled away) his third land, so he passes on his one land and discards, knowing that any one mana spell will get countered by the Top/Counterbalance.
I untap and play Karakas, reset Venser, and bounce his land. He is now drawing to Lotus Petal only, and even if he hits it and there isn't a land on top of my deck, the best he can still do is mainphase Decay and pass.

He draws and concedes.

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Nice play :)

are you still playing the same list with 1x Misdirection main and 2x side with 3x stp?

I have found great joy in playing Miracles, I'm just not sure what version should I play on MTGO (I currently try one SFM, another with Helm and the old one from you).
What I really like about this deck, I can finally play a long decisions tree deck.

about Goblin. my list plays 3 tutors, 3 RiP, 2 Pyroclasm and 2 Energy Field

don't remember, again, the last time I lost against goblin.

in this matchup Counterbalance is totally useless

I am testing this list online right now and it's doing really well so far. Sideboard is in flux. I am testing things :-)

http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

How much of your matchup analysis is unique to the RiP-Helm list? It looked like Adryan wanted to play a more traditional aggro-control list, so would that make the BG/x decks more favorable because you have fewer random permanents to get Abrupt Decayed, or worse because you don't have RiPs?
...

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The Liliana decks would probably be easier with a more creature-heavy list, at the expense of losing trumps against the field - Blood Mood, RIP-Helm, RIP-EF. The RIP list seems like you are better at beating random stuff but I'm likely biased.

I do know the RIP list is hugely better against Reanimator & TinFins (Logically), but it also hugely improves the Thresh matchup.

Goblins certainly does get easier postboard, but I think you still need some combination of Baneslayer, Batterskull, Moat.

I know that my list of unfavorable seems like a lot of decks, but Legacy has a lot of decks. I would definitely consider this to be a metagame deck, and you can tweak it to beat different things. Here's what I would list as good/favorable (for RIP at least):

Good:
High Tide, TES, ANT, TinFins, Reanimator, Maverick, Nic Fit, Burn, UR Delver, Elves, Zoo, Stiflenaught

Favorable:
Thresh, Stoneblade, Omni-Tell, Sneak & Show

Favorable Omni-Tell???

It's almost a nightmare to me
I start to get convinced to side 3 Meddling Mage just for that matchup.

Apart from that I agree with your favorable and good matchups. You forgot Esper and Goblin (as favorable)

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Originally Posted by Poron

Favorable Omni-Tell???

It's almost a nightmare to me
I start to get convinced to side 3 Meddling Mage just for that matchup.

Apart from that I agree with your favorable and good matchups. You forgot Esper and Goblin (as favorable)

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I don't consider Goblins favorable, but I can see it being better with different configurations. I listed stoneblade, what other Esper deck is there?

Affinity is also very favorable.

Yes. Play Clique, Cannonist, Meddling Mage. My plan against combo is always to turn into fishy hatebears. My most recent list has 1 Clique main, 1 board along with a 3rd Counterbalance, 2 Meddling Mages, and 2 Cannonists (as well as the typical 1 Flusterstorm, 2 REB).

now I can see why favorable matchup. You play Canonist and MMages + Flusterstorm...

I don't

only 1 Clique main? I don't like that. Clique is such a staple card, that, I think, should be at least a 2 of; I run 3 and I wonder why one shouldn't?

But, I think it is just wrong to run Clique in the side. As a SB card I regard Clique 100% as combo-hate. Do you run Clique with the intention to bring it in elsewhere? But as combo-hate it fails the second test, that is, it costs 3 mana and is thus just too slow.

As a maindeck card however, other qualities matter just as much:
1. its qualities against creatures (which is not zero unlike other hate bears)
2. pressure on PW
3. universality of its disruptiveness
4. win-con

the pressure on PW is the only point I suffer very much

I'm even thinking to play some Lightning Bolt for that -___-''''

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Originally Posted by Iron Buddha

only 1 Clique main? I don't like that. Clique is such a staple card, that, I think, should be at least a 2 of; I run 3 and I wonder why one shouldn't?

But, I think it is just wrong to run Clique in the side. As a SB card I regard Clique 100% as combo-hate. Do you run Clique with the intention to bring it in elsewhere? But as combo-hate it fails the second test, that is, it costs 3 mana and is thus just too slow.

As a maindeck card however, other qualities matter just as much:
1. its qualities against creatures (which is not zero unlike other hate bears)
2. pressure on PW
3. universality of its disruptiveness
4. win-con

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I can't fit multiple Cliques main in my RIP list. I definitely bring it in in many matches, as it kills opposing planeswalkers, mongese / delvers, acts as a clock vs combo, increases the 3-count for counterbalance when it matters, trades with Geist, etc. Having it in the board lets me improve my deck consistently by removing the worst cards in the matchup. With 0-1 creatures maindeck, clique is often unkillable postboard.

high tide is very favorable for this deck IMO

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Originally Posted by sauce

I am testing this list online right now and it's doing really well so far. Sideboard is in flux. I am testing things :-)

http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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Hi, about this list.
I made yesterday the same Main Deck except Karakas for collonade and cut one Jace for Clique.

The mana... how do You handle it?
When I play Miracles, Im always very comfortable with the Landbase, UW or a little Red splash for REB etc.

Now, playing this version I need to have : 2x blue as fast as possible, 1x white on start then 2x white plus red for removal.
To have this, I need to fetch duals - and they get destroyed by wastelands... :P

I can't see the sense in playing PF and placing StP in SB.

PF is more removal, and to have "more" removal you cut your best removal? It becomes than, just a remotion for PWs. But I would never cut StP for PF.

Alongside or nothing

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Originally Posted by Poron

I can't see the sense in playing PF and placing StP in SB.

PF is more removal, and to have "more" removal you cut your best removal? It becomes than, just a remotion for PWs. But I would never cut StP for PF.

Alongside or nothing

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StP isn't cut for PF, both are main.
IMO the worst enemy for Miracles are Midlrange decks that overwhelm you with discard, bobs any many threads that's hard to remove if you didn't find Terminus on time.
This is why I'm trying now the PF version, if it works - it's a massacre for the enemy and a nice CA engine.

The problem with Midlrange decks:
they play Wastelands... and our mana with PF is not perfect...
So I will test it more, maybe there is a way to balance it more.

Maybe Pyroclasm is the right answer? :=)

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Originally Posted by Maro_

Hi, about this list.
I made yesterday the same Main Deck except Karakas for collonade and cut one Jace for Clique.

The mana... how do You handle it?
When I play Miracles, Im always very comfortable with the Landbase, UW or a little Red splash for REB etc.

Now, playing this version I need to have : 2x blue as fast as possible, 1x white on start then 2x white plus red for removal.
To have this, I need to fetch duals - and they get destroyed by wastelands... :P

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you dont need to usually have pfires until later in the game because early game you can control w/ terminus stp on important targets which means you fetch basics.
you dont need UU asap, i don't think you want to always jam counterbalance and you also dont always draw counterbalance. sometimes you're busy developing mana correctly (vs RUG or other wasteland decks) and sometimes you don't have that option because you don't draw fetchlands and instead draw duals. this is part of the game.

the only land which I have a question about is plateau, it feels like it's not necessary and maybe should be another volcanic or tundra.
i like celestial colonnade alot instead of 2nd karakas as it answers planeswalkers very well and does not die to abrupt decay.

I like way too much my RiP version for PF, but may be Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm (I prefer Pyroclasm because Deathrite Shaman is /2) can be a good test even for others...

I still like my 4 Terminus 2 Pyroclasm 4 StP in my 75..

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Originally Posted by Poron

I like way too much my RiP version for PF, but may be Forked Bolt or Pyroclasm (I prefer Pyroclasm because Deathrite Shaman is /2) can be a good test even for others...

I still like my 4 Terminus 2 Pyroclasm 4 StP in my 75..

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the PF is sweet, try it out before you dismiss it. i played the RIP/helm for a long time and this seems better for the current meta IMO. it shores up merfolk and goblins (that people seem to be concerned with) as well as punishes liliana (pun intended)

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Originally Posted by sauce

the PF is sweet, try it out before you dismiss it. i played the RIP/helm for a long time and this seems better for the current meta IMO. it shores up merfolk and goblins (that people seem to be concerned with) as well as punishes liliana (pun intended)

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If the merfolk players know you're playing PFire Miracle, it's still possible for him to play around the range of PFire, as long as vial is in play. Goblin by itself is a weak justification to play PFire version. The best argument is that PFire version boosts all the BUG variant match-ups. Having PFire is having extra StP and extra insurance against opposing planeswalker:
1. You can deal with Dark Confidant and Stoneforge quickly, when StP is not in your hand, before they actually become a problem.
2. With M14 rule change, you can actually keep Jace and Liliana in check while you try to find yours.

However, these benefits come at the expense of combo match-ups. As in, PFire are pretty much dead cards against Storm, Show and Tell, High Tide...etc.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

If the merfolk players know you're playing PFire Miracle, it's still possible for him to play around the range of PFire, as long as vial is in play. Goblin by itself is a weak justification to play PFire version. The best argument is that PFire version boosts all the BUG variant match-ups. Having PFire is having extra StP and extra insurance against opposing planeswalker:
1. You can deal with Dark Confidant and Stoneforge quickly, when StP is not in your hand, before they actually become a problem.
2. With M14 rule change, you can actually keep Jace and Liliana in check while you try to find yours.

However, these benefits come at the expense of combo match-ups. As in, PFire are pretty much dead cards against Storm, Show and Tell, High Tide...etc.

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I believe that putting combo in the same bucket is wrong.
Storm/High tide is much easier than Show & Tell combo decks, especially ones w/ sneak attack.
EDIT: my list has 3 spell pierce, 3 cb, 4 fow, 2 clique main which is really good vs the storm combo decks.

Yes, people can play around your PFire but that's good because it gives you more time to not die.
And as you stated above it helps w/ BUG (Liliana/Bob)

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Originally Posted by sauce

I believe that putting combo in the same bucket is wrong.
Storm/High tide is much easier than Show & Tell combo decks, especially ones w/ sneak attack.
EDIT: my list has 3 spell pierce, 3 cb, 4 fow, 2 clique main which is really good vs the storm combo decks.

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They are in the same bucket in the context that PFire doesn't interact with any of these combo decks. We could create another bucket and put Aluren in there, since PFire interacts with that combo... somewhat. Under that context, these PFires could have been O-Ring, or extra counterspell.

My prediction is that Miracle will split into 3 versions:
1. Rip-Helm
2. PFire
3. non-PFire, includes Snapcaster

We either hate the graveyard utilization or join it, no in-between. If a version of Miracle doesn't utilize Rip or PFire or Snapcaster, it's bound to fail, in my humble speculation.