Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
So what your claiming is that if a opponent can play 3 " vindicates" (aka land/artifact/creature removal) in response to me my gameplan is affected.
Wow what a analysis by someone who says the dies to removal argument isnt fair. :wink:
No, what i am saying is that it is easy to hate the strategie. They way you promote Quicksilver is like it is unstoppable and that people trying to counter it are stupid? The card itself can be undeniable strong, but forces you to play a suboptimal list. While i'd rather pressure them with Golem's, Wurmcoil, etc instead of forcing myself to cheat in Kozilek and whatnot with Quicksilver. Take out that card and preventing you to reach 10+ mana is much more easy to achieve then to stop smaller bombs from hitting the board more constant. Besides that, is not uncommon to run against a list with Bolt/Plow/Decay, FoW and Wasteland.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
No, what i am saying is that it is easy to hate the strategie. They way you promote Quicksilver is like it is unstoppable and that people trying to counter it are stupid? The card itself can be undeniable strong, but forces you to play a suboptimal list. While i'd rather pressure them with Golem's, Wurmcoil, etc instead of forcing myself to cheat in Kozilek and whatnot with Quicksilver. Take out that card and preventing you to reach 10+ mana is much more easy to achieve then to stop smaller bombs from hitting the board more constant. Besides that, is not uncommon to run against a list with Bolt/Plow/Decay, FoW and Wasteland.
The existence of list with land-removal are actually a argument FOR quicksilver amulet. I promote quicksilver amulet because its a good card wich not many know about. You call it a suboptimal list but thats 1. a metacall 2. a opinion 3. i havent placed this list here. Forcing something in? Whats that for nonsense. You draw a hand and based on the hand and what you draw you make choices. 10 mana is not hard to get in my list, so 2 kozilek is very reasonable. T3/4 attack with a kozilek? Nothing wrong with that in a MUD shell!
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
The existence of list with land-removal are actually a argument FOR quicksilver amulet. I promote quicksilver amulet because its a good card wich not many know about. You call it a suboptimal list but thats 1. a metacall 2. a opinion 3. i havent placed this list here. Forcing something in? Whats that for nonsense. You draw a hand and based on the hand and what you draw you make choices. 10 mana is not hard to get in my list, so 2 kozilek is very reasonable. T3/4 attack with a kozilek? Nothing wrong with that in a MUD shell!
You say play the Quicksilver Amulet to have uncounterable creatures. And you say that people who counter the Quicksilver Amulet are fools. That does not make sense now either. Being able to resolve Kozilek thru A. Metalworker, B. Cloudpost/land mana (requires 4 lands), C. Quicksilver + 2x4 mana requires you to run a shitload of cards that do not do much on their own. All taking time and resources to setup. Now the thing with MUD that it wants to pressure fast and ramp/build up. Cards like Lodestone Golem and Kuldotha Forgemaster have double roles and are put on the board more easily with or without the assistance of Cavern of Souls. While still Forgemaster activation is most of the time an all in suicide plan it either wins, or prevents you from losing, but can be activated as early as T2. On its own it is still a 3/5 creature that attacks or blocks. Same is said about Lodestone Golem. 5/3 can pretty easily be killed sure, but on it's own it is still a 4 turn clock with a stacking taxing effect.
Cloudpost generally takes more time to setup, using cards that do nothing on their own and playing additional cards that are slow like Thran Dynamo makes you even slower. Taking down cards of that cardhouse makes it easy to hate the strategy. For me, i feel that MUD already runs a high amount of (mandatory) cards that do not do much on their own like Grim Monolith or Metalworker. Quicksilver Amulet does not add anything i didn't have before either. Let alone run a 10 mana non artifact in the list. It happens pretty often that Titan or Colossus bricks on your hand to. Personally i don't even like Ugin with its 8 mana not being an artifact, but it does not require extra cards that werent already there. And perhaps that might justify the presence of Kozilek in the list, but that does not mean you have to spend more cards to make it more playable. The way i see it is running Quicksilver Amulet plus Kozilek is awesome and all, but not in anyway more reliable or better then the standardized or streamlined Mudpost/Welder lists. And yes, it is based on a opinion, and it is a meta call. To me putting a T3 Kozilek (no draw 4 cards trigger) with a Quicksilver Amulet into play and equipping it with a Lightning Greaves is a dreamplan that risks losing more games because the most optimal list is overall slower and more clunky than MUD already has to deal with.
Let me ask it this way: Why play your Quicksilver brew over a regular MUD list or Turbo Eldrazi (outside of the obvisous that trying new stuff is cool)?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
You say play the Quicksilver Amulet to have uncounterable creatures. And you say that people who counter the Quicksilver Amulet are fools. That does not make sense now either. Being able to resolve Kozilek thru A. Metalworker, B. Cloudpost/land mana (requires 4 lands), C. Quicksilver + 2x4 mana requires you to run a shitload of cards that do not do much on their own. All taking time and resources to setup. Now the thing with MUD that it wants to pressure fast and ramp/build up. Cards like Lodestone Golem and Kuldotha Forgemaster have double roles and are put on the board more easily with or without the assistance of Cavern of Souls. While still Forgemaster activation is most of the time an all in suicide plan it either wins, or prevents you from losing, but can be activated as early as T2. On its own it is still a 3/5 creature that attacks or blocks. Same is said about Lodestone Golem. 5/3 can pretty easily be killed sure, but on it's own it is still a 4 turn clock with a stacking taxing effect.
Cloudpost generally takes more time to setup, using cards that do nothing on their own and playing additional cards that are slow like Thran Dynamo makes you even slower. Taking down cards of that cardhouse makes it easy to hate the strategy. For me, i feel that MUD already runs a high amount of (mandatory) cards that do not do much on their own like Grim Monolith or Metalworker. Quicksilver Amulet does not add anything i didn't have before either. Let alone run a 10 mana non artifact in the list. It happens pretty often that Titan or Colossus bricks on your hand to. Personally i don't even like Ugin with its 8 mana not being an artifact, but it does not require extra cards that werent already there. And perhaps that might justify the presence of Kozilek in the list, but that does not mean you have to spend more cards to make it more playable. The way i see it is running Quicksilver Amulet plus Kozilek is awesome and all, but not in anyway more reliable or better then the standardized or streamlined Mudpost/Welder lists. And yes, it is based on a opinion, and it is a meta call. To me putting a T3 Kozilek (no draw 4 cards trigger) with a Quicksilver Amulet into play and equipping it with a Lightning Greaves is a dreamplan that risks losing more games because the most optimal list is overall slower and more clunky than MUD already has to deal with.
Let me ask it this way: Why play your Quicksilver brew over a regular MUD list or Turbo Eldrazi (outside of the obvisous that trying new stuff is cool)?
Well to be honest- it isnt my optimal list in this meta (loads of miracles).
But its still a card that deserves more testing. I play 3 thran dynamo in all my MUD decks. thran costs 4 mana and gives 3.
Then i realised quicksilver is 4 to- only downside is: 1, it cant get ugin 2, it cost 4 to activate. upsides: 1, uncounterable 2, EOT activation. Even if it helps you to resolve a wurmcoil your still 2 mana cheaper then without it. I chose to run it with kozilek- 10 mana is just as reachable as 8 mana for ugin. But i can imagine resolving a sundering titan or some other biggie for 4 is nice to.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
You can't get Ugin or Karn with Forgemaster they're not artifacts .
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
You can't get Ugin or Karn with Forgemaster they're not artifacts .
Uhmm.. truth! :tongue:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I want to discuss Daretti and Wildfire more as a possible strategy . This list was posted a couple pages ago and I propose these alterations, first.. cut from 24 lands to 22 . Play Dwarven Ruins because it can give you the RR if you need it for Wildfire.. you can also play Sandstone Needle but I think the Ruins is better here. Great Furnace is better than Mountains for this deck for Forgemaster food. The Darksteel Citadel combos well with Burning of Xinye but I don't think it is worth playing over Mishra's Factory which is very good against Liliana of the Veil or other planeswalkers it will save you in way more games than Darksteel Citadel against Wasteland or to survive Wildfire with. 4 Citadel in your deck is not going to be enough mana to play with after a Wildfire anyway... if you're going to cast Wildfire it should be winning you the game.
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Great Furnace
3 Dwarven Ruins
3 Mountain (Cut 7 mountains for those two cards above)
4 Foriysian Totem (instead of Mox Diamond)
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Ugin's Construct
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Wildfire
//
I think playing Burning Wish is better than Wildfire too, so that if Wildfire isn't super great you can get something else instead like a Shattering Spree , Obliterate, Apocalypse, Boiling Seas, Pillage splashing White lets you wish for Morningtide .
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
why would you jump trough hoops when you can just drop ugin and win?
If you do insist on red:
Magus of the moon
Bonfire of the damned
Rolling earthquake
Godo bandit warlord + batterskull
The good werewolf that turns 8/5 trample :p
Moltensteel dragon !!!!
Also whats with the forsythe totem? 4R to activate? 4/4? Unimpressive.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Hello again fellow MUDslingers. I just finished up the SCG IQ at the SCGLA open, I took 13th place out of 138 players with the following list. Someone else made top8 with a MUD list, but I do not know his exact 75. It was 8 rounds of swiss, and my overall record was 6-2 after the swiss rounds.
4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination
Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Trading Post
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt
Some notes (A more detailed tournament report will come later, but I am le tired)
Rnd 1: Grixis young pyromancer (2-0)
Rnd 2: Maverick (2-0) My opponent apparently didn't have maze of ith in his deck, and blightsteel colossus got there in both games
Rnd 3: Jund (2-0) My opponent was not super familiar with trinisphere's interaction with cascade, so bloodbraid elf cascaded into not casting anything in one of our games.
Rnd 4: Sneaky Show (2-0) Don't have good notes on this match, I won game 1 with a wurmcoil engine which had to be sacrificed to emrakul anhiliator, but the two tokens were enough to finish the job. Game 2 I got staff and metalworker and went infinite
Rnd 5: BUG control (1-2) This opponent ended up making top8, so I don't feel too bad on the loss. He was a pretty nice guy too.
Rnd 6: Bant Maverick (0-2) Knight of the reliquary getting wastelands was enough to seal the deal for me in both games.
Rnd 7: Worldgorger reanimator (2-1) In game 1 my opponent discarded a griselbrand and animated it a couple turns later due to a lodestone golem hitting the field, but I had 2 other artifacts and forgemaster active at this point, so on my next turn I just got spine of ish sah with forgemaster to kill the griselbrand, then cast another lodestone golem, and it was enough beats for the win.
Rnd 8: Sneaky Show (2-0) The top8 was already decided going into this round because it was a clear cut from points, so the top 4 tables all drew into top 8. My opponent for round 8 seemed a little bit irked, and reasonably so. In game 1 he spell pierced a grim monolith and a trinisphere, but I was able to resolve another trinisphere, and follow it up with a wurmcoil engine the next turn. Wurmcoil engine got the job done, as my opponent couldn't cantrip into the show and tell or sneak attack. Game 2 my first turn was glimmerpost, pass the turn, second turn was wasteland, grim monolith, metalworker. He cast sneak attack on turn 3, used the lotus petal he cast turn 1 and snuck in griselbrand, proceeded to draw 14 cards and not hit an emrakul. He bashed for 7, went back up to 10 life and passed the turn after discarding down to 7. On my turn I tapped metalworker revealing staff of domination, kuldotha forgemaster, lightning greaves, lodestone golem, and another artifact (I forgot what it was but it might have been chalice of the void). I cast staff, which was met with a force of will, I then cast forgemaster, which resolved. Lightning greaves followed, forgemaster got some kickass boots and fetched up blightsteel colossus by sacrificing metalworker, grim monolith, and himself, then blightsteel colossus got some kickass boots and swung in for lethal.
Emrakul, the Aeons torn was in my sideboard for show and tell decks and imperial painter. I have lost pretty harshly to imperial painter a couple of times with this deck, and wanted to curb that loss rate.
Trading post didn't do a damn thing all day, but I never played against burn, and I never saw it in the games I did board it in (which I think was only against maverick and bant maverick)
Earlier someone asked about the 4 vesuvas and the 2 staffs in the main and if it bothered me or not. As far as vesuvas go, I could see cutting down to 3, but I have copied opponent's lands with it before to just be able to play a land for the turn. Not the end of the world, but definitely not an awesome feeling. As for the staff of domination, I frequently sideboard 1 out, but like having it as an option. I really like having 2 staff of domination against decks like sneak and show and reanimator (one single big guy attempting to do the job) because you can use it to just tap down their big dude and buy turns or evade it entirely.
Overall I don't think I would change anything in the list unless someone has some good suggestions on how to not lose to knight of the reliquary + wasteland or life from the loam + wasteland. I'm all ears on how we solve that problem.
EDIT 1: I just wanted to throw my opinion in the mix on quicksilver amulet, and why it might not be a good card to play. One thing a lot of people don't think about/realize is that MUD plays very differently against different decks, and against decks with a lot of counterspells, you can bait out force of wills by playing chalices and trinispheres. If the 3sphere sticks, there's a very very good chance your opponent will have to tap enough mana that they can no longer counterspell things, which means you don't have to worry about force of will anymore. Quicksilver amulet is cute, but it just doesn't do enough on it's own, and if you want uncounterable stuff you can just run cavern of souls. That's my two cents on the topic at least.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I run duplicant against show and tell decks. 6 mana removal is do able amd if hes in your hand when they show and tell they get nothing.
Whats the best sideboard?
Mostly i run something like this:
4 faerie maccabre (dredge reanimate)
3 duplicant (show and tell)
2 witchbane orb (burn)
2 silent arbiter (elves goblins)
3 tormods crypt (dredge reanimate)
1 ensnaring bridge (show and tell reanimate)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
I run duplicant against show and tell decks. 6 mana removal is do able amd if hes in your hand when they show and tell they get nothing.
Whats the best sideboard?
Mostly i run something like this:
4 faerie maccabre (dredge reanimate)
3 duplicant (show and tell)
2 witchbane orb (burn)
2 silent arbiter (elves goblins)
3 tormods crypt (dredge reanimate)
1 ensnaring bridge (show and tell reanimate)
On paper Duplicant is great. But I've had several S&T players against me that boarded out all of their show and tells because there afraid of it. Instead they rely on sneak attack and through the breach.
Which makes me wonder: Why no Pithing Needles of Revokers in your sideboard? I use them very often, also against S&T (Sneak Attack, Griselbrand or even Lotus Petal)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Airwave
On paper Duplicant is great. But I've had several S&T players against me that boarded out all of their show and tells because there afraid of it. Instead they rely on sneak attack and through the breach.
Which makes me wonder: Why no Pithing Needles of Revokers in your sideboard? I use them very often, also against S&T (Sneak Attack, Griselbrand or even Lotus Petal)
G2: add 3 duplicant, no way they see that coming. Always worked great for me.
Revoker is so weak. I rather would play needle, except it 1 mana. Best card against show and tell is just chalice @ 1.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
@jakobian: another piece of gy hate or needle to help against waste lock? Maybe crucible? Chalice at 2 looks like the only md answer. Possibly crucible or revoker over staff md if it's that big of an issue?
Edit: surgical extraction?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
For your list, this is the mana base I often like to play though I can't really decide. the City of Traitors and Vesuva are both well worth cutting down to 3 each , though I like the speediness of City and almost always would rather draw one of those than a Vesuva and the Wasteland cut down to 3 so you can play 3 Cavern. Cavern is usually going to be better tempo than a Wasteland. Cut the Platinum Angel for another planeswalker either Karn or Ugin . The wurmcoil isn't so important anymore, you can board one, the glimmerpost helps you gain life, and play Steel Hellkite , I think its the card I grab the most often to win with, with Cloudpost mana you can pump it a lot! The platinum angel i find too unimpressive as a win condition it gets chumped by two delvers with no removal in the deck at all. the Platinum Emperion is far more worth playing i think and harder to deal with if you're going to play one or the other.
For sideboard.. It's been mentioned many times before but Forcefield is good against Re-Animator or Arena of the Ancients . Silent Arbiter is only good against like Goblins it's not so good against Elves because they have Natural Order . I prefer Revoker in the sideboard than Needle because you can name Lion's Eye Diamond, or Lotus Petal against Storm. Omen Machine is insane against Miracles they literally can't win against it without a Jace ultimate.
3 wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
2 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 wurmcoil engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 sundering titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Karn, Liberated
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
Silent Arbiter is only good against like Goblins it's not so good against Elves because they have Natural Order .
And what do they get with order? The behemoth trample +x/+x for everything thing. So if they cant attack with a milion elves that is a good thing.
This as is currently, quitte happy with:
3 Thran Dynamo
4 chalice of the void
2 lightning greaves
4 trinisphere
2 Scroll Rack
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 staff of domination
4 Metalworker
4 lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
SB:
4 faerie maccabre
3 tormods crypt
1 witchbane orb
3 duplicant
2 silent arbiter
2 pithing needle
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
I've tested it in MUD before. MUD has neither the shuffle effects nor the cards in hand to ever let it into a competitive list.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I used to play 2 Duplicant in my Board for things like Sneak and Show, but I play one Spine of Ish Sah in the main and a second one in the board, I've discovered that I like that better, You can blow up the Sneak attack/creature, and it works on Dream Halls and Omniscience decks too.
Also Silent Arbiter makes Dredge a little sad too, one zombie doesn't do much every turn.
I do play a singleton Ensnaring Bridge in my board for opposing MUD, Sneak/Show, and Reanimate.
I think that Duplican is very powerful, but I think that Spine just does the job a bit better, and it's very reusable.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LOLWut
I've tested it in MUD before. MUD has neither the shuffle effects nor the cards in hand to ever let it into a competitive list.
Wrong. Its great. In a long game you keep useless cards in hand to dig deeper for 1 mana and find a win, early game it finds you either the mana or the threads you want. Plus it puts back excess city of traitors/vesuva duplicate ugin/blightsteel cards that are dead in hand for something good. Its the isht.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
Wrong. Its great. In a long game you keep useless cards in hand to dig deeper for 1 mana and find a win, early game it finds you either the mana or the threads you want. Plus it puts back excess city of traitors/vesuva duplicate ugin/blightsteel cards that are dead in hand for something good. Its the isht.
I wouldn't necessarily conclude that he's intrinsically "wrong" on Scroll Rack. The issue with it is that in the early game, there are better cards you can drop to put yourself in a dominating board state. MUD is a deck that doesn't want to build its hand up mid to late game, especially with an abundance of resources. With that being said, it doesn't make sense to hold back land drops or advance your board state to suffice the activation of the Rack after one to three turns of waiting. That's a recipe for disaster if you're giving your opponent that much time to stabilize or win the game. At that point, you're better off playing Bottled Cloister or Grafted Skullcap to draw yourself more cards without waiting several turns to maximize Scroll Rack's utility.
It seems underwhelming, honestly. I can see its general utility in a hand where you're sitting on a bunch of lands early, but it seems rather counter-productive to ship those lands back when the whole point of the deck in the early-going is to advance your board state with accelerated mana resources.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
I wouldn't necessarily conclude that he's intrinsically "wrong" on Scroll Rack. The issue with it is that in the early game, there are better cards you can drop to put yourself in a dominating board state. MUD is a deck that doesn't want to build its hand up mid to late game, especially with an abundance of resources. With that being said, it doesn't make sense to hold back land drops or advance your board state to suffice the activation of the Rack after one to three turns of waiting. That's a recipe for disaster if you're giving your opponent that much time to stabilize or win the game. At that point, you're better off playing
Bottled Cloister or
Grafted Skullcap to draw yourself more cards without waiting several turns to maximize Scroll Rack's utility.
It seems underwhelming, honestly. I can see its general utility in a hand where you're sitting on a bunch of lands early, but it seems rather counter-productive to ship those lands back when the whole point of the deck in the early-going is to advance your board state with accelerated mana resources.
Bottled cloister is cute. Until it gets destroyed and you never want to plat it again.
Grafted skullcap is ok i guess.. Not sure kinda meh in the first turns ot game.
Muds problem is horrible topdecks. Horrible topdecks area a logical problem of a deck that wants to be fast. Nobody says you gotta keep good cards in hand. But in mud you will draw a land you dont want. You will draw that third chalice you dont want. You will draw a useless cloudpost you dont want. Scroll rack offers the unique ability to trade them for the next cards of your deck. You should try, its makes the deck more stabile, its cheap and its a artifact. Everytime i see it im happy because i can dig for what i want to see.
