I agree the Leovold list is better positioned. I'm playing it and just butchering everything so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
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I agree the Leovold list is better positioned. I'm playing it and just butchering everything so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Leovold is THE card into a bug shell in this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
There's no one reason to not play this card with this colors imho.
I play Leovold in Shardless Control from the day one and many times work as preventive protection vs some kind of deck like Reanimator (one the actual tier deck) or ANT for example.
Is a must to counter/remove for our opponent and can make pressure.
One of my favorite cards.
And this list actually uses 2 Seas?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
In any case Leovold has also exploded in price, not sure if it's the best idea to buy this card right now
In my list, I use 4x Underground Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by pipet76
I've buy paper's Leovold at day 5/6 from release, 16,5$ each.
Not bad.
:tongue:
Unless you pre-ordered them for 8 each, like me 😀Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Played in a small four man unsanctioned tournament yesterday. Met a few cool folks and came in second with Shardless. It's meaningless at a statistical point of view, so you can ignore this for the most part. Questions I have for the group!
One, what would you take out for Shardless BUG and why?
Two, what would you take out for Infect and why?
Three, does anyone have reports on the use of Yahenni's Expertise?
Four, does anyone have reports of the use of Fatal Push?
Five, should Maelstrom Pulse be included in the deck still?
Six, should Clique be included in the deck still?
Now, a statement of fact; Leovold is insane. I need three.
4 DRS
4 Goyf
3 Strix
4 Agent
2 LotV
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Visions
4 Brains
3 Hymn
4 Decay
1 Deluge
1 Pulse
4 FoW
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
2 Waste
1 Tar Pit
4 Delta
4 Catacomb
1 Misty
1 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1 Spellbomb
1 Needle
2 Disfigure (will be Fatal Push)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ooze
1 Library
1 Null Rod
1 Jitte
1 G. Charm
1 Macabre (Might become Expertise)
1 Clique
1 E. Plague
1 K. Grip
1)first to go are the forces: two for one yourself against the card advantage deck is not the right path to go down, although relevant in forcing their visions game one its the first card to come out post board. second to go for me is hymn to tourach, two for one'ing them is definitely relevant but the games tend to be so grindy that you will eventually both be top decking and this is one of the worst top decks you could possibly ask for therefore i try to make the decks draws consistent and strong at any point in the game (disclaimer: you will lose sometimes to shardless decks that keep hymn in post board but this does not make it correct! you have stronger cards that affect the game more than hymn in your sb)
2)first to come out are the ancestral visions: the card is too slow to matter usually. second for me are the hymns: this is a personal preference, sure you can rip 2 pieces out of their hand but i think if you want hand disruption thoughtseize is a better card because you get perfect information and the exact card you want. it could be possible flipping hymns on the play and thoughtseize on the draw is a good idea but i just stick with thoughtseize. maelstrom pulse is acceptable to take out if you are bringing in better removal like push/disfigure/dismember/murderous cut because its much too slow. next up could be some number of goyf, i dont take any out because you need beefy blockers and a beater sometimes but some people take goyfs out if they have more interactive cards to bring in. fatal push will make this matchup alot better for us.
3)no, the card seems good but i dont think its better than toxic deluge or even night of souls betrayal specifically in the legacy format. i spent my money on the fatal pushes to test because i knew they would affect the format much more so i have to wait now to get an expertise.
4)its the business. even if its usually only hitting a 2cmc cost creature its insanely better than disfigure and with wastelands and fetchlands etc. this card is bonkers. i tossed two in the main and havent looked back yet. it allows you to use your abrupt decays on things that arent pushable and vice versa which makes your removal suite alot more flexible. youve never been able to blindly disfigure scavenging ooze, knight of the reliquary, tarmogoyf, serra avenger, leovold, thought knot seer etc. blah blah blah the card is a staple.
5)yes. as slow and clunky as maelstrom pulse is there are no cards that replace this effect in these colors. shardless has the power to see so many cards over the course of 1 game so having 1 of answers to many situations is very powerful. i run 2(1 in side) but could see it coming down to one although fatal push will make gurmag angler alot stronger. pulse actually comes in more often than it comes out in my experience.
6)i dont play clique right now and dont really have an opinion on its inclusion except that im not interested in it. dont get me wrong its a good card though.
as for leovold i have been running 1 main since it became legal and havent looked back, i think 2 is correct but havent found the space yet. ive felt for a while that liliana was underperforming from a synergy point of view but everytime i take her out i find an example where i wouldve won if i had her out. im sure that with the prevalence of true name nemesis and leovold recently that toxic deluge is at a premium as it doesnt target and maybe warrants testing yahennis expertise.
all that said im interested in the tools bug decks have been given in the past couple months but am not quite sure shardless itself is positioned very well. well see if push helps but its been feeling just about 2 turns too slow recently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson Viper
Quick question about mana bases. I'm running a pretty typical Shardless list but I only have 2 U-Sea, 1 Trop and 1 Bayou. Would I be better off filling the gaps with basics or shocks? I know the deck is pretty color hungry so I was leaning towards shocks but I imagine getting a shock wasted must feel pretty terrible.
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Not a competitive advice - you need colored mana for spells: you can try changing 1 Hymn with 1 Thoughtseize and add 1 basic Island (removing the double B casting cost), but the rest of lands are shock lands imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch253
The deck is color hungry.
Hello all. I've updated the Lejay list to incorporate 4 copies of Fatal Push. Having a reliable turn 1 removal spell is simply incredible for this deck. I also cut 2 planeswalkers in exchange for 2 copies of Leovold. With the slightly lower curve, you could possibly justify cutting the 22nd land in favor of a Ponder or Sylvan Library, but for now I think you just want to reliably hit your land drops.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Spymaster of Trest
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Savannah
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares --> something else: Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, etc.
3 Thoughtseize
4 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
With Push, the sideboard slot that was previously StP can probably be cut in favor of something else. With a possible increase in True-Name Nemesis, I suppose something that does -X/-X is worth considering, though perhaps it could instead be some alternative option -- more anti-combo or a metagame-specific choice might work.
Just for the record I think it's incorrect to play anything less than 4 abrupt decay in the main. Fatal push and abrupt decay are not interchangeable.
i dont think lejay list really need fatal push, maybe can be really intersting if lejay read this and write him opinion, can be e really good for this trheadQuote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I have been out of competitive for a while, but if I had a tournament to attend tomorrow I would take my old list with just -1 stp +1 fatal push.
That said with a staple like Fatal Push, trying to rethink from the ground is a good idea anyway if you have some serious tournaments to prepare. If I was doing so I could end up with a different list, but maybe not. It's not just that I know the old list well, but also that I have been very satisfied with how versatile it was and therefore perfect for an unknown metagame. That level of versatility and efficiency isn't easy to achieve.
Hi man...........Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
As you said fatal push can be a good solution to replace stp, but i think stp still better.
Fatal push is fast and cheap removal and we dont need white mana, but the implied odds we get with stp i think are amaizng.......... ok white mana isnt always easy but as you know beacuse you create that side, with cascade and shaman, stp work and give us a mono out to trouble solution like: crusader, marit lage, some big boy of br reanimator and gurmag and tombstalker. Frog and stalker becoming really much more played right now were all over played fatal push and Smart player put more frog in maindeck.
Btw ad you said maindeck is really nearly to perfection and untochable, and i think 1 for 1 removal isnt the thing your shardless need.
Hope you come black to competitive.
Ps your provate message are full you need to clear it 😁
Thx
I've made my feelings on splashing white pretty clear (not worth it), and Shardless has plenty of answers to Angler/Tombstalker/Mirran Crusader that don't involve making the mana worse. I also wouldn't put a Push in the main, though it's a fine replacement for Disfigure in the board.
Hey Guys,
New to legacy and new to Shardless BUG.
Been wanting to ask you for your opinions on my list:
// 21 Spells
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa's Jitte
// 18 Creatures
4 Balefull Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Emmisary of Trest
//21 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
// 15 Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
I'm seeing some D&T, BUG Delver, Miracles, Eldrazi, RUG Delver, the reid duke True-Name / Leovold BUG, the new BUG Standstill with fatal push and BR Reanimator and 1 storm in my LGS
I don't think fatal push main is neccesary because we can cascade into abrupt decay.
Is 2x leovold the right number?
I'm seeing that the guys from the brainstorm show totally cut Jace and Lili, any thoughts on that?
I'm fine with Jace being cut, but I like lili, she makes the card advantage of this deck even more backbreaking. It's my opinion that the number of creatures you play is definitely on the High side.
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Hey thanks for your reply.
What would you replace?
2 x strix for 2 x lili ? or maybe + hymn or thoughtseize?
i'm liking the strixes for the eldrazi / delver matchup and it's funny that it can block a griselbrand to death
I think missing a board wipe entirely is something that's inconceivable for the deck. With our low creature count, take advantage of it by wiping the board. A board wipe is so crucial when fighting against BUG creature decks. It's bad against certain match ups, but the format still has a lot of creature decks. I would cut a Strix for a Deluge from your side into the main.
Every time I try to help someone with their list it ends up just turning into my 75 lol, so I don't think I can help much more than to say test it out and see what you do/don't like.
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