This deck just looks bad to me. If you don"t like the Delvers play Shardless. It has a good MU vs Eldrazi as well and is better rounded against other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
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This deck just looks bad to me. If you don"t like the Delvers play Shardless. It has a good MU vs Eldrazi as well and is better rounded against other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaytron
I'd be interested in a report, decklist and SB strats too. Always interesting!
Agreed. There are considerably less T1 plays making Daze so much worse in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
Greetings All,
It has been awhile since my last post. I have been judging more frequently now than playing (with the exception of Legacy locals). I played a fairly standard BUG Delver list with Hymn to Tourach this past week, ending 3-1. The exact list is as follows:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Sideoard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Dark Confidant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
A quick recap: Round 1: Dredge (2-1), Round 2: BURG Delver (0-2), Round 3: Blood Moon Stompy (2-1), and Round 4: Reanimator (2-0). The Dredge player kept loose hands in games 1 and 3. I was able to get Deathrites active and control his graveyard. BURG Delver feels like it should be a fine match up but I mulliganed here to 6 and 5 due to no land hands in game 1 and 2. Blood Moon Stompy seems like it might be a scary deck, but if we can get a Deathrite or a Delver early, their lack of interaction often means a win. In game two I made a turn one delver, he made a turn one Chalice of the Void on 1. I flipped the Delver and killed him with it and a Goyf. The turn 1 Blood Moon effects seem to be the real danger. Reanimator seems fine. Deathrite and counter magic do great work.
I guess, currently I feel as though Hymn might be poorly positioned in my metagame. With two 2-4 graveyard decks, precision discard is more appealing. I may slant to another Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce for a week or two as well as feeling out a flex slot. Also 2 graveyard hate slots feels like the minimum that I would run if I want to consistently beat dredge and reanimator... may trim a SB card for a Nihil Spellbomb. I also just feel like the bouncing back and forth between Stifle and Hymn tends to leave me wanting a better configuration. I will Ponder this and get back to you all. Also I cast 0 Gurmags... I may change those to TNNs for less GY dependence. Anyways thanks for reading. Any comments are welcome/appreciated.
I like your deck, but here are some personal opinions. With only 18 lands and only 4 removal spells (abrupt decay) i feel like Liliana is less good. For similar mana issues, i feel like Jace the mind sculptor in your sb is also bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I have no problem delving for my tombstalker, which I run 1 of, +1 tnn also.
I'm curious, have the maindeck spell pierces been good to you? They seem to clash with the hymns for the same reason stifle does (hymn is a tapout strategy). I'm also curious how other people feel about hymn in the meta? I switched my 3x stifle to 3x hymn cuz I wasn't sure if I'd be seeing much fetchlands in the meta. Please also see my list below and give opinions on it, anyone! Thinkng of changing the 1x maindeck dismember to a second maelstrom pulse
Main deck
14 creatures
4x delver of secrets
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
1x true-name nemesis
1x tombstalker
27 spells
2x sylvan library
1x jitte
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
3x daze
3x force of will
3x hymn to tourach
3x abrupt decay
1x dismember
1x toxic deluge
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
19 lands
4x wastleland
4x underground sea
2x bayou
1x tropical island
1x swamp
4x flooded strand
3x verdant catacombs
Sideboard
2x Surgical extraction
2x Dismember
2x Life from the loam
2x Chill
1x Pernicious deed
1x golgari charm
3x Pithing needle
1x negate
1x force of will
@Sturtzilla
well, from my personal experience, BURG Delver is not a fine match, they are better tempo deck and they tend to be much faster then TA. After-board they also have access to red hate - Pyro/Red blast among other things. It is quite hard match.
@Degavolver
when I tried stalker and nemesis in one deck which seemed to be perfect (at least on paper), I failed. Prove me wrong please, I am not a perfect player, but they both play very different game (role), at least for me.
Both options have its merits and neither was worse or better, however mixing them together felt schizophrenic and just less efficient (one get stalker when TNN is what is necessary and vice versa). Your mileage may vary. I would be more then happy to use both options in one deck.
So after some advice from the mtg communities, and looking over a few stock lists, i put the following together.
Main deck
15 creatures
4x delver of secrets
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
2x dark confidant
1x true-name nemesis
27 spells
2x Gitaxien Probe
4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x daze
4x force of will
4x stifle
3x abrupt decay
1x dismember
2x spell pierce
18 lands
4x wastleland
3x underground sea
3x tropical island
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs
Sideboard
2x Surgical extraction
2x Dismember
1x toxic deluge
1x Chill
1x hydroblast
1x maelstrom pulse
1x golgari charm
2x Pithing needle
1x grafdiggers cage
1x abrupt decay
1x thoughtsieze
1x sylvan library
I'd like to fit in a 3rd dark confidant maybe... But not sure what I would cut (it would likely be either a stifle/force of will/daze)
Please note that I'm playing the gitaxien probes so that I can know whether it's safe to tap out on my turn, or leave up mana for a stifle or spell pierce.
Ultimately in sideboard i want to -1pithing needle, +1 null rod, but i dont have the card at the moment.
Any thoughts on this new list?
Personally I feel like this deck is more of a version of RUG delver that uses black instead of red, rather than a team America deck. In general the core of stifle, spell pierce, probes etc. align it much more, in my eyes, to RUG rather than the heavier, clunkier discard and removal package in team.
Saying that, I certainly don't think you've got yourself a bad deck at all and if I look at the list from the perspective of RUG then all I would really change is maybe 1 less creature and 1 more spell to consistently flip delver more often.
Please take these comments with a pinch of salt though, I'm a relative new comer to legacy as I've only been seriously playing competitively for about 6-7 months so I could (and probably am) be looking at this all wrong.
I've got a small tournament in a couple of weeks (it seems I don't live in this wonderful fantasy world where I get legacy fnm or wnm etc.) I have a local tournament that's about 2 hours away (which may not be far for some of you guys, but for the UK that's like in France).
Here's my current list
Creatures
4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 tombstalker
Spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
2 liliana of the veil
4 abrupt decay
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
Lands
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
I'm still working on the sideboard, but it's going to have the usual suspects like 2 golgari charm, toxic deluge, disfigure, pithing needle, grafdigger's cage, and maybe a little bit of spice like life from the loam and winter orb.
I'm a little apprehensive about having only 13 creatures. Maybe I should cut a land for something? Any suggestions are welcome
I disagree with and3h. The list looks very solid for a Stifle list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Degavolver
Stifles are great against Shardless and Miracles. Not so much against Eldrazi though.
So it all depends on what you expect to face.
For the creatures: 15 guys is a lot already. I wouldn't play more. The TNN could be a Confidant, if you like.
Furthermore, I'd recommend playing the full set of Decays. They are too good to pass up on.
You probably do want a Dismember main deck though, since it kills the Eldrazi nicely.
Maybe there simply isn't space for the Probes. :rolleyes:
Information is nice, but IMO probes lose value if you aren't playing Young P or Cabals somewhere in the 75Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I have to agree with these guys on the stifle list. I would go for -2 Probe then +1 Abrupt Decay and +1 Ponder or Dismember. I am not sure how I feel with 3x Bob.
I'm running a very similar list without the probes and and running a snapcaster in the tnn spot. When I acquire a tnn I will chuck it in. V clique would also be fine in that slot.
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guys what would be the best substitute for the 7 dual in he 20 land version? I dont want to go with 10 fetches and currently have 3 under 1 tropical and 2 bayou. thanks
For ally colors, "fastlands" are a decent option. Darkslick Shores has the downside of not working with Daze or Submerge but it provides colored mana without life loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by surface33
UG ang BG are difficult to fill, because currently there are no opposite colors "fastlands". " Shock lands" meaning Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool are the closest, but fetching for them, and in the case of UG, Dazing them and replaying them really, really hurts.
the darklisk shores is a good option, I was thinking on playing a swamp, with 2 lilis 4 hymn and tombstalker main it was another option. What about the 10th fetchland? thanks for the inputQuote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
10th fetch should probably be the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by surface33
You very rarely need the 4th Sea, and Shores don't support Daze.
ok, thanks a lot for the adviceQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
No probs. Wasn't a hard one. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by surface33
I actually played 3x Sea 10x fetch at some point, in order to support 3x Tombstalker. I got tired of losing to Jund, and Stalkers help a lot there. The Stalkers were stupid against Jace though, so I dropped the idea after getting humiliated by Miracles a few times. It's a trade-off. It will always be.
TNN is a nice middle ground option, but it costs UU, 3 power for 3 mana isn't spectacular and it dies to -1/-1 effects. It's the most solid reliable beater we have though.
TNN against D&T (3x RiP from their SB hits pretty much all the other creatures we have), Clique against Miracles, Tombstalker against midrange decks, Confidant against most combo decks to dig. If you know what to expect in your metagame, that will help you plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Took second yesterday at my locals. Only 9 people showed up so we played 3 rounds. I went 1-0-2, winning to StifleNaut 2-0 and drawing to Mentor Miracles and Grixis delver. I could have won against the delver if I didn't play safe at the end of game 3. I went the safe route of playing Liliana instead of just going for the kill with my DRS. I was running this list:
4x Goyf
4x DRS
4x Delver
2x TNN
4x BS
4x Ponder
4x AD
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Hymm
1x Dismember
2x LotV
4x Wasteland
4x USea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty
2x Bayou
1x TIsland
Side:
2x Spell Pierce
2x Disfigure
2x Surgical extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Sylvan Library
1x Engineered Explosive
I was chatting it up with some of the players afterwards and some players recommend playing a Jitte, another flusterstorm and Nihil Spellbomb in the board. I also wanted your guys opinion on some main deck changes as well. I was thinking something along the lines of -1 TNN -2 Hymn -1 LotV for +2 Bob and +2 Thoughtsieze.
Another thing that I noticed is that we haven't been putting up tournament results. This makes me concerned with our position of being a Deck to Beat. If someone has more input on this please let me know.