[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Ulysse95

(list)

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How has Ramunap been in Nyx Fit? Seems like an odd addition.

I'm trying to find a way to fit in Gideon, Ally of Zendikar but not sure what to cut for it. Adds another angle, increases souls token performance. Maybe that direction belongs back with other experimental list I posted.

Our lists are pretty close.

1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Carpet of Flowers

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Originally Posted by square_two

How has Ramunap been in Nyx Fit? Seems like an odd addition.

I'm trying to find a way to fit in Gideon, Ally of Zendikar but not sure what to cut for it. Adds another angle, increases souls token performance. Maybe that direction belongs back with other experimental list I posted.

Our lists are pretty close.

1 Cavern of Souls
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
2 Sylvan Library
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Cruel Reality
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Green Sun's Zenith

side:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Carpet of Flowers

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Actually he was really good, along with crop package.
I often wanted to zenith him.
He's a house with dryad, recurring for chump block and leap each turn. I never used it in recuring wasteland I think, but it's possible too.
At minimum, it's a 2 for one, 3 for 1 if you can leap him (get him, landrop from graveyard against the opponnent removal, leap him in answer if possible (with the land you just get when mana short ^^ )

I think the big houses we have are enought to not put in Cruel reality, when I tried it, it often felt like overkill.

I really enjoyed the crop package ^^
Crop can do what stp do in most of the cases in my opinion (remove Grisou/Marit, even Emrakul, even Thalia with Karakas, go fetch tower sac outlet when drs is tapped, or a wasteland to remove his non basic greensource he kept.. I even get to 0 damage from a price of progress lol)

But I would think about the board Sigarda!! ;)

What do you think about that?

Edit: also I teste and found the 1 random cavern a bit awkward, like too situationnal... I don't know, I wasn't fan, but not sur why..

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Originally Posted by Ulysse95

Crop can do what stp do in most of the cases in my opinion (remove Grisou/Marit, even Emrakul, even Thalia with Karakas, go fetch tower sac outlet when drs is tapped, or a wasteland to remove his non basic greensource he kept.. I even get to 0 damage from a price of progress lol)

But I would think about the board Sigarda!! ;)

What do you think about that?

Edit: also I teste and found the 1 random cavern a bit awkward, like too situationnal... I don't know, I wasn't fan, but not sur why..

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Doh I didn't see the Crop Rotations. That makes more sense. I'll have to give it some thinking...haven't had too much of an issue with combo to really want that package but I'll try to keep it in mind.

Sigarda has been very fine in the side. You are usually free to focus on the combo game 1, and she comes in against expected graveyard hate and/or Jace. Navsi prefers Titania I believe as a finisher - you might try her if you are running Crop Rotation. She's definitely a faster clock than Sigarda when you have access to Rotations. I've been tempted to cut Cruel for either Gideon or Secure the Wastes and it is a close call. Gideon is nice against Jace...but Cruel is just such a quick clock against most decks and I've been really satisfied with it so far.

I've been doubting the inclusion of cavern as well. Makes for some potentially awkward game 2/3 hands when you board more heavily into black spells like early Thoughtseize or Lost Legacy. I've been considering cutting it for perhaps a 2nd Savannah. Nice that it helps cast all our creatures, but so does a Savannah :/

Thanks for the lists!

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Originally Posted by square_two

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So you don't actually play Starfield? What's your plan if they take out one of your lock pieces?

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Originally Posted by ObligatoryReference

Thanks for the lists!



So you don't actually play Starfield? What's your plan if they take out one of your lock pieces?

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IMO there's not enough need to justify it. There is a real risk in having it stuck in hand, and I found extremely few cases where I wanted to tutor it with Rector.

Game 1 most decks just don't have the capability to remove a high cmc enchantment. Against Elves w/ Rec Sage you are most likely getting out Splendor first which prevents that, even Curse most likely gives you the time to find a Deed and stabilize. Against UW control lists with maindeck Council's Judgment, you either get Dovescape to prevent that, or they have a limited amount of time under Cruel Reality which forces them to exhaust resources while you can continue on uninterrupted. Games 2 and 3, you have Sigarda/fatty backup plan, Eternal Witness, better knowledge of what to Therapy. 4 Therapy 2 Brutality are further tools at disrupting hate.

The first Rector trigger is usually game anyway. Starfield doing nothing for a full turn is a huge knock against it - if you are free for a turn and can get a trigger off, why aren't you getting Cruel, Dove, Sandwurm, whatever? Starfield is further graveyard dependency when I already have seen decks bring in that sort of hate.

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Originally Posted by square_two

IMO there's not enough need to justify it. There is a real risk in having it stuck in hand, and I found extremely few cases where I wanted to tutor it with Rector.

Game 1 most decks just don't have the capability to remove a high cmc enchantment. Against Elves w/ Rec Sage you are most likely getting out Splendor first which prevents that, even Curse most likely gives you the time to find a Deed and stabilize. Against UW control lists with maindeck Council's Judgment, you either get Dovescape to prevent that, or they have a limited amount of time under Cruel Reality which forces them to exhaust resources while you can continue on uninterrupted. Games 2 and 3, you have Sigarda/fatty backup plan, Eternal Witness, better knowledge of what to Therapy. 4 Therapy 2 Brutality are further tools at disrupting hate.

The first Rector trigger is usually game anyway. Starfield doing nothing for a full turn is a huge knock against it - if you are free for a turn and can get a trigger off, why aren't you getting Cruel, Dove, Sandwurm, whatever? Starfield is further graveyard dependency when I already have seen decks bring in that sort of hate.

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Fair enough. Thanks for the advice!

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

The best non-black sac outlets that I've found so far are:

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Crop Rotation for Phyrexian Tower (and Tower itself) and Berserk are both options, though Berserk is a bit slow. Metamorphosis is another option, and then there's always Perilous Research and Goblin Bombardment in non green.

Metamorphosis is an interesting one. It maintains the curve into 5 mana on T2 that Veteran Explorer gives us. It can't be dumped into a GSZ for 4, but it also opens up some possibilities. It's a prime target for counter magic though, but if the card you're casting off of it can't be countered, you're likely in good shape.

Maybe curving T1 Veteran Explorer into T2 Metamorphosis to cast Surrak Dragonclaw would work. At least in fair matchups.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

How have I not seen this card sooner. I may come back and ask you for a list but I'm going to explore the possibilities with this first. *I think any list would be a sub-par sneak fit list but let's see where this goes.

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All of those lists really are just poor Sneak & Show lists, you know that right?

The problem I find with Crack the Earth / Smallpox as sac outlets is:
a) If you are sacrificing your own lands then playing your expensive spells is going to be difficult
b) You probably should still be playing expensive spells though otherwise why bother with Veteran Explorer
c) Whats the point in making your opponent sacrifice permanents if you are giving your opponent permanents with Explorer?
d) Yes, it is strong if your opponent has 0 basics in their deck and you destroy Explorer with Crack the Earth, but if the opponent has no basics in their deck and you get an Explorer trigger by any means aren't you far enough ahead anyway?


As far as builds I would like to try, I think the Ballista/Delirium list was pretty interesting and I wonder if you can fit Glissa and Verdurous Gearhulk into it somehow

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Originally Posted by Echelon

All of those lists really are just poor Sneak & Show lists, you know that right?

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More or less the sentiment that I came to immediately in that post. There are much better ways to cheat in fatties in the legacy format, but, but, it's an egg. And we have dinosaurs now. Every flavor bone in your body should be.... Ok fine, I cannot even finish that post. I concede that the card has that cool looking factor to it and does literally nothing for what we want.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

The problem I find with Crack the Earth / Smallpox as sac outlets is:
a) If you are sacrificing your own lands then playing your expensive spells is going to be difficult
b) You probably should still be playing expensive spells though otherwise why bother with Veteran Explorer
c) Whats the point in making your opponent sacrifice permanents if you are giving your opponent permanents with Explorer?
d) Yes, it is strong if your opponent has 0 basics in their deck and you destroy Explorer with Crack the Earth, but if the opponent has no basics in their deck and you get an Explorer trigger by any means aren't you far enough ahead anyway?


As far as builds I would like to try, I think the Ballista/Delirium list was pretty interesting and I wonder if you can fit Glissa and Verdurous Gearhulk into it somehow

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a) Crack the earth is probably not right, it was just on the front page so that's the first one I noticed. Perilous Research seems like some value in non-b builds.
b) I'm not exactly sure what you mean by expensive spells. 4/5 mana spent per turn, yes. Ramping into 18 drops, I'd probably disagree. I wouldn't say that our spells are expensive (terrastadon is expensive imo), but I would say that it is a greedy deck. By that I mean, Tireless tracker by itself is not a good card, but making land drops each turn, cracking 1/2 clues a turn, and playing the spells we draw off of the clues in the same turn is a phenomenal engine.
c) When I first saw crack the earth I immediately thought of innocent blood. But these cards are not the same. I recognize that, I just don't want to leave any stone unturned (most people may have been through this in the past and already recognize it's unplayability, I have enough time to explore a little further).
d) The basic idea on crack the earth that I started with. They have 1 land in play, I sac vet explorer. If they have basics, then they would go +2 but now only go +1. Sure we go -1 in the creature department but our use of the mana in the long run is much more effective.
They don't have basics. We go +2. Again, loss on the board itself but we develop ourselves by stepping ahead of the traditional mana development curve (1 per turn). They have a creature and a land and sac the creature. It's now innocent blood. And sure, we can sub-divide further into what if they have aether vial and a land, what if they cast lotus petal... The card simply allows us to develop and untap on turn 3 with 4 mana or so, where our opponent untaps with 3. Small, incremental value, what I've more or less internalized as the mantra of nic fit. Again, I'm not fighting for crack the earth itself in any list, but I do think I am looking and approaching these cards from different perspectives.

I've had Glissa in the board since I saw it reprinted in FtV:lore just to deal with Eldrazi (she is soo good against eldrazi). Gearhulk is sweet, but I definitely would want it to go wide more than tall.

What if the answer to the primary sac card is to use more Crop Rotations? 4 Rotation+1 Tower gives you 5 sac outlets on it's own. That alongside some Perilous Research could be enough.

But that goes back to the primary question which is that I'm not quite sure what blue offers.

Ok so after about 180 odd games both online and on paper, I think I am quite close in getting a BUG Fit suited to the current meta game and my own playstyle. Below are some statistics

Grixis Delver: 14 games
On Play: 7 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 4 wins; 2 loss

Other Delver Decks: 8 games
On Play: 1 win; 0 loss
On Draw: 6 wins; 1 loss

Show and Tell variants: 22 games
On Play: 4 wins; 6 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 11 loss

4C Leovold: 12 games
On Play: 3 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 5 wins; 3 loss

Miracles: 17 games
On Play: 6 wins; 3 loss
On Draw: 4 wins; 4 loss

ANT: 6 games
On Play: 2 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 3 wins; 0 loss

TES: 2 games
On Play: N/A
On Draw: 0 win; 2 loss

BUG Variants (Reid Duke/Food Chain/Aluren): 14 games
On Play: 6 wins; 2 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 5 loss (note says all 5 losses were to Food Chain or Aluren combo off)

Blade Control: 10 games
On Play: 4 wins; 0 loss
On Draw: 6 wins; 0 loss

Jund/Maverick/Team Italia: 7 games
On Play: 4 wins; 0 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 2 loss

Chalice Stompy: 15 games
On Play: 8 wins; 0 loss
On Draw: 3 wins; 4 loss

DnT: 8 games
On Play: 3 wins; 1 loss
On Draw: 2 wins; 2 loss

Elf: 3 games
On Play: 1 win; 0 loss
On Draw: 1 win; 1 loss

Other Decks: 34 games
On Play: 10 wins; 8 loss
On Draw: 11 wins; 5 loss

Some thoughts, playing 20 lands with 4 Brainstorm, 3 Traverse and 3 GSZ will need me to play the early game with mana construction in mind. Means in land light hands, Traverse is quickly fired to get the basic to stabalise the mana or Brainstorming to quickly find lands instead of holding it back for use in mid game. The deck can grind really really well, Ishkanah enables chumping against Emrakul beats and prolonging the game really well plus being a win condition herself. Looping Ishkanah is via 2 towers is so much better than looping any other creatures we run.

Edit: All wins vs fair decks where due to Nissa (both nissas) and JTMS providing stupid amount of card advantage and tempo pressure.
A total underdog against SnT but I guess I can accept having 1 poor matchup for this variant of BUG Fit.
Ironically vs ANT, I did very well. TES however just ran through me :tongue:

Yeah was testing a bug list as well this weekend. Was 4-0 against D&T, infect, eldrazi and 4c leo. It's really strong!

Welp.

Now we have to explain Vet trigger to the point of making sure the opponent is choosing NOT to grab basics if they don't do anything.

Policy changes.

Relevant text:

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Recently, there’s been some question about what we expect players to do when they play a spell or ability – most commonly Path to Exile, but Ghost Quarter comes up, too – and their opponent doesn’t do an optional part of the instruction. Since it’s optional, that’s theoretically a legal result, even if they didn’t realize that they had the option. Given the preponderance of textless and foreign cards, and communication rules that don’t require you to explain everything a card does (because that way lies madness), there was incentive for scurvy dogs to not bring up those parts of a card.

Revised communication rules have added text to preempt this. Now, if a spell or ability you play gives an opponent a choice, you must get confirmation from them that they aren’t doing the optional thing. You still don’t have to remind them while they decide if they want to respond, but once it resolves and the time comes, no making assumptions...

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I went to a major event a couple weekends ago and had two opponents not understand the trigger...I likely would have lost one of those matches had they had it spelled out for them like this. Now we have to actually ask them why they aren't getting basics / confirm that they are choosing not to. Ridiculous.

(Edit: and I play with English cards against English-speaking opponents)

I don't see a problem with this.

Yeah I have no issue with cards having to be played as written... I always announced my triggers as "Vet trigger, would you like to search?" when I pick up my deck so this does not affect me at all.

It's not even about being played as written to me, I just think it's lame to try and get your opponent to miss optional triggers. I prefer to win or lose through good play, not through angle shooting, even in competitive environments.

Wouldn't find it in Nic Fit, but I wonder how this would work with something like Tabernacle. If they missed their trigger, would you still be obligated to ask them if they intended to not just pay 1?

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Originally Posted by crowe_1

Wouldn't find it in Nic Fit, but I wonder how this would work with something like Tabernacle. If they missed their trigger, would you still be obligated to ask them if they intended to not just pay 1?

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I'm not sure, but it's something I ask my opponents regardless.

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Originally Posted by Brael

What if the answer to the primary sac card is to use more Crop Rotations? 4 Rotation+1 Tower gives you 5 sac outlets on it's own. That alongside some Perilous Research could be enough.

But that goes back to the primary question which is that I'm not quite sure what blue offers.

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I was initially opposed to the crop rotation package since +BB acts more or less as ashnod's altar in the deck. Although, I do recognize that it can provide a sac outlet while not requiring any additional colors. I'm not really sure what blue provides either. Blue is nice as it does provide cantrips and counter spells which are nice but there is nothing overwhelming in RUG to want to play this deck immediately over BUG or Junk.

However, there is the super spice factor (which for bringing casually to locals is a plus in my book). I'm currently in a super fair meta that can allow me to try these more obscure builds. I have some credit at my locals that losing a couple of weeks does not put me at an actual loss. And most importantly, scientific curiosity. Nic-Fit as it has been defined more or less from the beginning it seems is the combination of Vet. Explorer + Cabal Therapy. Can we do differently? It seems people have played with this question in the past, and honestly I don't think this is going to work too well either. But Giving the other factors I am willing to try this out.

The main deck that I am going to bring with me Wednesday (I think):

//Creatures
4 Veteren Explorer
4 Eternal Witness
2 Venser
2 Thragtusk

//Instants & Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Collateral Damage
4 Perilous Research
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Capsize
2 price of progress

//Lands
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest