My post in this thread concerning Mox Opal and a possible decklist has been nuked -.-
Well, basically, people, playtest Mox Opal aside some artifact lands, especially darksteel citadel, it works wonder.
Printable View
My post in this thread concerning Mox Opal and a possible decklist has been nuked -.-
Well, basically, people, playtest Mox Opal aside some artifact lands, especially darksteel citadel, it works wonder.
Does it help you play 3-drops on turn 1? No? Thought not. Garbage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Yeah I'd rather have a 2-mana land than a Darksteel Citadel, and I'd rather have a Mox Diamond than a Mox Opal. Good thing they're already in the deck. =)
I'd say that it might work, but I'm not convinced that it works wonders. How is this proposed build superior to the standard build?
I have actually played with 1-2 Chrome Moxen main (along with a few SoR and one more Chrome Mox side), mainly when expecting combo. (Incidentally, this also marginally increases the number of t1 3spheres.) It was decent but of course has its own problems - but the deck can ditch one excess Prison/Magus rather consistently, quite easily. Never mind the situational O-Ring, and with Smokestack active even Armageddon becomes moot quite often.
Against anything but combo it's not worth it, though - you may actually need those "excess" Prisons/Magi. Plus, this was before Disenchant Cat (TM).
Mox Opal certainly looks breakable, but not even useable in this deck, imo. On turn 1 it does nothing unless we have at least two mana already which is enough against anything but fast combo. (The use of artifact lands is also not free; whether it's basic lands, Wastes, or Factories, something would have to be shaved off.)
On t2, it helps us get to three mana, as would any land, but is again more dependant on external factors. It will occasionally help get us to four mana to t3, which is very nice indeed with Smokestack, but often premature with Armageddon.
Past that, a land will most often do, with the exception of us being forced to break City.
In other words, what does the card do that the deck needs? Does it provide something that warrants changing the deck?
Especially since it does nothing but slow us down in multiples (so we can't play a full set) until we can get that Smokestack active ... Dunno, it seems like it would need too much support for too small an effect.
It does. Artifact land + Mox Diamond or 2x Mox Diamond activates it, as does Chalice@0 (primarily versus combo but still). Not all that likely but it does add up with the Diamond + dual land hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Thats almost statistically negligible though. I don't see opal being in the current build, but who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
The goal is not to come up with laughably inefficient situations in which Mox Opal could be tapped for mana. The goal is to determine how Mox Opal could possibly benefit the deck.
So to get three mana, you could get a 2-mana land, another land, and a Mox Diamond. We've got 7-8 of the former and 4 of the latter. It still doesn't happen often enough, but that's a starting point. Infinitium suggests an artifact land, another land, a Mox Diamond, and a Mox Opal. How many artifact lands are you going to run? If it's 7-8, then the chances of getting the first three cards are the same, but you still need the Mox Opal. Sure it could happen, but it's not reliable enough to depend on, and therefore not a benefit to the deck overall.
Grim Monolith is a better bet for early acceleration. Using just a 2-mana land and Monolith, you can get 3 during the first turn. But we don't even use Monolith, so I can't see Stax using Opal.
And that's without going into how artifact lands are worse than every single land in the deck unless we actually have Opal in the opener, and even then they're a liability.
Just to preempt the inevitable, can we just agree that Leonin Arbiter isn't a good fit for Stax? Here's the argument I made elsewhere:
Asterisk above because Arbiter probably stacks too.Quote:
My first consideration is what it brings to the party beyond our existing options. E.g.: Trinisphere and Chalice. It has a big effect on Natural Order, which is more of a meta consideration depending on how often you see it. More generally, it hurts fetchlands in a deck that really wants to attack the manabase. If you effectively halve the number of lands in their deck (by nerfing their fetches), it can make it extremely difficult for them to recover from a Geddon, and taxing effects force them to overextend into your geddons. Nice.
However, we also often run Suppression Field in the side. This takes care of a lot of other problems, including fetchlands, opposing Lavamancers and Vials, and has the "pay 2 more if you really want it" net effect on fetches. Importantly, (1) they stack* and (2) they must be paid for per-activation. Suppression Field actually looks like the most obvious thing to cut for Arbiter, but would that be a positive trade? I don't think so.
We must also not forget about Aven Mindcensor. The evasion would be seldomly but occasionally relevant, the Flash may be useful to play tricks with your opponent, and it's likely to be as good against Natural Order and Tutors, though not so much against fetches. The Aven has the additional small benefit in that it costs 3, which is more likely to escape Chalice.
Arbiter could really swing some games and help the deck overall. However, it doesn't solve the core problem of Stax not having the right card at the right time. Additionally, some of its effect is already provided by our other cards. Ultimately, it doesn't seem like it's strong enough to displace some of the more generally-useful cards in our tight decklist. That said, I'd love to hear some arguments to the contrary.
Iirc the preview article flat-out states so. Gonna go check now.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
//edit: yep, it does, the stack.
Also, I agree, it'll be another card that looks the nuts in Stax and then gets spat back out quickly.
Just for an update, lately I've been trying out a more back to basics version without Baneslayer. Instead of relying on Baneslayer or some other finisher to get earlier wins, I'm trying a slower version that hopefully locks more consistently. Suppression Field MD is especially nice against the increasing number of Zoo and Goblin decks.
I think Crystal Ball provides a really great filter for the deck mid-to-late game and helps stop those face palm draws. Still, what I think this deck really needs is some creature around the 3 to 5 mana range that basically reads "I stall the game, am somewhat difficult to remove, and can double as a finisher." I keep looking at Windborn Muse, but the fact that it rolls over to basically all removal is frustrating. Hopefully Scars has some nice artifacts for us. Etched Champion is somewhat interesting.
Artifacts 20
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Crystal Ball
Creatures 4
4 Magus Of The Tabernacle
Other Spells 12
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field
Land 24
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Savannah
Sideboard 15
4 Sphere of Law
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Choke
3 Fairie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
World Queller does pretty much all of that, at the expense of requiring two white mana. That variety of utility is why I've been suggesting him. Unfortunately, I can't do much testing right now. My other idea is to use KotR with a land toolbox, but that toolbox can't be too big without further decreasing consistency.
How has that manabase been working out for you? I know you've taken out the only WW requirement in the deck, but still, having only 8 white sources, half of them a single Legendary, seems really dangerous.
I like the four Trinispheres and the 2 Crystal Balls. I'd consider taking out a Magus and Supp. Field to add in two Quellers, and remove a Factory, Flagstones, and perhaps City of Traitors for more Plains.
land survey from a week or two ago: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...CN-7-ZgF#gid=0
@Dzra: Why would you not play 4 Crucible of Worlds? I haven't been following this thread lately, but my understanding from a little while ago was that people basically agreed that playing less than 4 Crucible was not optimal, as tempting as it is to try to cut one when you're trying to make space int he deck (not good in multiples, etc).
@kirbysdl: Like I said, I'm not completely caught up on recent development on this deck, but I used to play the old Angel Stax deck and based on my own experience switching from Angel to Armageddon Stax, as well as the community consensus at that time, I believe that 3WW or 4WW big threats are not only unnecessary, but take up space that could be used for things that make the way Stax REALLY wins (that is, locking them out; 20 life is just a formality) stronger, leading to a more focused game plan. Obviously, the World Queller makes them sacrifice things, but it looks too slow to me. You can play Smokestack off two lands, whereas to play World Queller, you need at least 4 lands/Diamonds. It might or might not also matter that with Smokestack they have to sacrifice first, which is not the case with World Queller. Instead, I'd suggest adding some more lands (up to 26, maybe), the 4th Crucible, keeping the Magus count up, or bumping the Smokestack up, etc.
Also, I've never been a fan of Suppression Field. It doesn't play nice with your own Factories, Wastelands, sideboarded Tormod's Crypts, or Chalices.
For reference, the list I've been playing for a while:
Manabase: 30
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
6 Plains
Creatures: 4
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
Spells: 27
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
3 Hanna's Custody
3 Choke
1 Trinisphere
Notice the main deck is 61 cards. Normally, this is not the sort of thing I would do, but I read some math dealing with the changes in probability of drawing a 4-of versus drawing a white mana when you add a Plains as a the 61st card (posted by someone earlier in this thread, I believe) that convinced me. The only other thing about it which might not be obvious is that Krosan Grip is there as an answer to Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.
I'm not sure I would assert that this is an optimal list, but it has treated me very well on the uncommon occasions I get to play real Legacy. The actual kill is usually quite slow. However, most opponents will concede once a lock is established. Sometimes someone will try to ruin your tie breakers by making you attack 10 times a waste time. but once you have a lock you can play very quickly. If someone dawdles under a hard lock just to waste your time at a tourny you can always call a judge and accuse them of stalling, which is cheating.
Cheers
4 Crucibles is a must, imo. They're great with so many cards in the deck, and they'll be the target of destruction quite often.
Well, they're not sacrificing first, but they sacrifice during your turn, which is also good - and you have some control over what they have to get rid of. I agree with the rest though. The cost has proven clunky for me. It's not like we can't become the target of enemy Wastes or have to sacrifice our Cities from time to time.Quote:
It might or might not also matter that with Smokestack they have to sacrifice first, which is not the case with World Queller.
They're also pretty high-maintenance with a Tab effect out.
Choosing the type is very important. With Queller, the only real even trades are Enchantments. Your Factories let you sac and recur lands, artifacts, and creatures, and you can take out Planeswalkers all day long. Keep in mind that even if you get the lock, you usually end up with a stack at 1 anyway. You can't ramp up Queller, but sometimes you don't need to, especially in the late game where you occasionally actually need to end it quickly. Also, let's not forget the occasional situation where you'd like to ramp down a Smokestack. Queller lets you choose whether you want to trigger it at all. The 2WW cost is indeed an issue, but with everyone running around with 3WW angels it seems a little hypocritical to point to that as the only reason to not use it.
Small correction: three total sources consisting of a 2-mana land and two white sources will cast Queller.
Your deck really does look old-school. =) That's not a diss, I've often wondered why so many people with the resources to get Ravages only play 4 Geddons.
Re: the way you win, I'm not so convinced. I think the fact that you win is more important than the state of the lock when you get there. If Stax adds a few big threats to deal with the changing metagame, and doing so increases its win percentage, then so be it. The problem with ONLY setting up the hard lock and getting the scoop or attrition win is that you have to get the hard lock, and the opponent learns to expect that. If you have a multifront attack that could win in 6 turns or 26 turns, then the opponent has to be ready to counter multiple strategies, which is always more difficult than just dealing with one. Of course, it does play tricks with your consistency. Ultimately, I think it's as much a question of playstyle as it is of effectiveness.
As with others, I think 4 Crucibles is good. However, he uses Crystal Ball, which perhaps sufficiently increases his chances of getting them on the field that he can play 3.
I routinely go to two counters when I have Crucible. It's not difficult to sustain with four or more mana available, and sometimes I need to get rid of opposing permanents quickly because they sneezed out a whole lot early or because I didnt draw Stack until relatively late.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Nah, you need four. One land and two white sources will not produce 3WW. No matter how much I wish the cost really was 2WW ...Quote:
Small correction: three total sources consisting of a 2-mana land and two white sources will cast Queller.
I doubt it. Crucible is a very solid play early on when coupled with Wasteland, often with Factories too. Also, Crystal Ball gets rid of multiples anyway if necessary.Quote:
As with others, I think 4 Crucibles is good. However, he uses Crystal Ball, which perhaps sufficiently increases his chances of getting them on the field that he can play 3.
What I meant was for the long-game, you want something solid, and that means a Smokestack at 1. I totally agree that you often need to ramp it up earlier to help clear the board.
@Queller: whoops, I'm not sure why I thought it cost 4. /facepalm
Maybe I'll continue along with my KotR experimentation then. Of course, the problem there is getting a green source in play. =)
@kirbysdl: I agree about the potential advantages of fielding a "two-pronged" strategy, but to me, World Queller just doesn't seem like the way to go. It's problematic to try to add this kind of plan B (Queller or KotR or whatever) in Stax because there are so many spells that you can really suffer from cutting copies of, and no built-in draw engine like many decks have, and so the plan B often ends up detracting too much from the plan A. That being said, if a threat could be found that could be included without weakening the lock plan. I'd be enthusiastic about it. The way I see it, the only way this would happen is if the inclusion of the plan B threat made one of the secondary lock pieces (Ghostly Prison, maybe) unnecessary. I could see including a creature that would be a deterrent to other creatures and could also swing in Ghostly Prison's place, assuming the mana cost were manageable.
Crystal Ball looks interesting, but I'm skeptical simply because there have been a lot of artifact draw/filter cards that have looked interesting for Stax but in the end weren't better than playing more copies of bombs. Playstyles and preferences vary, of course, but personally I'll wait for more evidence it's good before I'm convinced.
Absolutely. As a lock piece on a body, it's more of a middle ground than the offense-oriented angels. I meant that the common inclusion of 2 angels allows for a bit of variety in your repertoire. I should have said that explicitly, cause it was a little unclear what I meant after talking about Queller.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindMage
I think you hint at a good point, but I'm not sure whether it's the point you were trying to make. The first question is: does Stax need search/sift/scry? I would argue that it does. Stax doesn't need consistency, which I define as the same thing happening every time. Stax needs a different, context-appropriate thing to happen in every matchup, and for that you can't just rely on having 4 of everything (which is how you achieve consistency); you actually need to skew the deck towards favorable inconsistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindMage
If that's the case, then just because other attempts to fill that need have failed doesn't decrease the need: a proper card could come along to do just what we want. The question is whether Crystal Ball does the job, and I agree that we need more evidence one way or another.
Indomitable Archangel 2ww
Creature - Angel Mythic Rare
Flying
Metalcraft - Artifacts you control have shroud as long as you control three or more artifacts.
4/4