Nah, just answer countertop which has already been mentioned in the thread many times. Snare is one option but I tend to favor Krosan Grip myself.
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Nah, just answer countertop which has already been mentioned in the thread many times. Snare is one option but I tend to favor Krosan Grip myself.
Solidarity is an instant speed combo deck. It runs lands and instants. While I wouldn't say it can't run non instants at all, Top is a really bad one. I sucks up your mana and isn't better than the blue cantrips you're running. Also, adding enough non instants to have counter/top negates your ability to combo completely.
Without removal or creatures as backup, you're going to spend a lot of time setting up a combo that loses to a turn 1/2 creature, while not helping you go off.
Commandeer is a 3 mana/card answer to a two mana threat they don't need to resolve to win. You spent all that and now you can't combo against them. Turn one Top is only going to happen occasionally if you're playing 4 of them. Again, bad idea.
And good players always, always Stifle the lands. Whether you have 1 land in your hand or 5, it's about tempo, not how many you're drawing. By the time you're comboing, Stifle is dead.
Honestly, none of your arguments on anything here have any merit whatsoever.
I'd be interested in a way to beat Counterbalance with instants. Has anyone tried maindeck Repeal?
The problem with Repeal is you're most likely going to be tapping out to play it and it will just get hit with all kinds of hate. Hell, Daze will probally counter it. So if all your oponent has to do is counter Repeal thats going to really be bad for you. You want split second bounce: Wipe Away.
I like Cryptic Command better, it offers versatility, and is almost impossible to counter with CB. And a cantripping fog can be strong against, say, Goblins or Ichorid.
The thing with Repeal is that it's more useful as a cantrip in the early game. Going second, you can bounce a Lackey or whatever. You can gain a lot of time from other decks by bouncing a Goyf. Against Ichorid it cantrips for one mana during combo.
Also you get to bounce a Chrome Mox in response to Infernal Tutor by turn 1, giving you slightly more outs against Tendrils than just FOW.
Three mana is out of CB range, and one less so you can more easily get around Daze. I'm saying maindeck it could be strong, but obviously you'd want split second from the side.
@Bahamut: Regarding countering Standstill, I usually try to brainstorm/opt in response to it. If I can asure my next 2 or 3 land drops, I don't counter it. Otherwise, I Force it. I guess you can see the logic behind this, I'm too lazy to explain :wink:.
In a sad note, I've lost 1-2 to UWb CunningStill last tournament I went to. Sencond turn Meddling Mage with Force backup and third turn Mishra's Factory in BOTH games 2 and 3 are not good news. :cry:
About Repeal, I've never though seriously about it, but Herbig has good reasons. I'll give it a try.
I really don't think counterbalance fits here. I hate drawing useless cards midcombo, and counmterbalance and top would make this worse. You actually have turns 2 and 3 to play it, then it becomes useless. I think that in order to convince people here otherwise, someone will have to show really broken plays/results.
Why exactly won't we run Grip over Repeal? Destroying a CB is infinitely much better than bouncing it, especially in the matches that tend to be slower than usual aggro, like Thresh. As I already said, with Cunning Wish, there are 6 ways of finding Grip, together with a whole lot of cantrips we can play before a CB lands.
Dreadstill seems like a terrible matchup indeed. I'm glad absolutely no one plays that over here. Perhaps Grips will make the match a bit more manageable though.
Not to flame you, but that is clearly one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard. CounterTop does:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Magic 101
-Takes 7 slots in the deck, that blows a lot
-Nothing against the decks you want to defeat
-Not answer our biggest fear, namely opposing CounterTop
That's it. I simply can't see why CounterTop would carry this deck into higher tiers.
Shimster is a Solidarity player, I only play Solidarity occasionally, but I can still tell - with great ease - that you have no understanding in this deck's philosophy and entire gameplan.
So when Shimster tells you to gtfo suggesting CounterTop, you better listen.
CounterTop could possibly do in Spring Tide, but then go post there.
The power of CounterTop just cannot be denied - True, but likewise it can't be supported in this deck.
I can't see why CounterTop should help against Threshold. Explain why it rocks their socks.
I have tested repeal and it is good, very good, however it is not very good versus black thresh or sui black. Like bahamuth keeps saying dark confidant is the biggest threat in both of the two decks followed by counterbalance and hymm to tourach. Spell snare counters all of these. I have been trying the green splash and k. grips help tons, being most of the hate vs this deck is artifact or enchantment. Overall i think that spell snare is a more useful card then repeal after having tested both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willoe
Okay, whell I already play Sensei's diving top main so I ONLY side in Counterbalance. Thresholds are very popular in my metagame.
You'd be happy to note that I went 1-1 vs. Threshold in the tournament last week at it was the Countertop that won me game 2 in the first match. The 2nd match I got smashed because he saw all 4 Force of Will the first seven turn all WITHOUT ANY SEARCH! If it was the 4th Force on my wished Commandeer toward his Counerbalance and he would have gotton Countertop locked.
*** They get Countertop locked because they dont side in Krosan grip and side out Enginered Explosions!! ***
Urgh, repulsive username. Don't worry, I'll take your post seriously.
Why do you even bother with Solidarity if Threshold fills your metagame? Going 1-1 isn't pretty good, did you draw?
How did you beat Threshold with Counterbalance?
Okay, but the awesome thing about Threshold is that they always have FoWs in their opening hand. As certain as gravity. Nah, just joking. Bad luck indeed, that happens rarely.
I don't understand that, what do you even mean?Quote:
If it was the 4th Force on my wished Commandeer toward his Counerbalance and he would have gotton Countertop locked.
Okay, very nice, but are you sure you don't perform better without mainboarded sensei's divining top? Your post isn't very empiric, no data at all, just that you went whopping 1-1 against threshold. Wow, srsly.
Look, I might be a bit harsh, but I'm so tired of peolpe who think that SDT and Counterbalance should be in Solidarity. It's very, very antiproductive, and unless you are lucky as shit when you Meditate, you'll most likely seeing many, many more dead cards, thus making you more inconsistent. That is pure shit for the deck, and once we combo off, we want to win, not risk our win even more that we already do - with lethal damage on the stack, drawing that crappy Divining Top can cost you the game. Do we want that? Fuck no.
It seems his name got changed by the mods (and they were right doing so).
Still you're right: Dead cards midcombo just suck (that's why I don't like spell Snare anymore).
Just once again in case people didn't read that argument earlier: if anyone wants to play a deck with Counterbalance, that someone must totally be able to deal with threats his opponent might have resolved before that Top + Counterbalance came into play (which happens turn2 only every now and then) and the threat we'd have to deal with here is mainly an opposing Counterbalance. Cards that are great in your opener are nice (Spell Snare anyone?) but Solidarity lives from playing 42 cards that are useful at any point of the game (aside from the manaproducing spells on turns 1-3 sometimes).
I agree with Van Phanel on all his points. Spell has not really grown on me over the last month and I do feel it becomes a dead card after the 3rd turn. Heres some points and some new ideas (well sort of new ideas) Ive been thinking about.
Should I go back to + 2 Twincast main deck? heres my list again.
// Lands
12 [10E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
// Spells
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Twincast
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 2 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
That is a list I have done well with and if you read a few pages back I had a recent 4-1 showing with the decking going 4-0 in the swiss rounds. IMO heres what I was thinking: Does twincast belong in the main deck or a Wish target in the board? I think it does belong, at least 1 copy in the board.
Second, Should we go back to Accumulated Knowledge?
Here would be my changes:
-2 opt -2 Twincast + 4 AK's
This would be very good vs discard and provide late combo "meditates". Also, this would provide + 10 cards if all copies were played in the game.
Third, Should we add Think Twice?
Heres my changes:
-1 Opt -2 Twincast + 3 Think Twice
It would provide 6 extra cards if you play it and it would also help dig is a chalice of the void landed in play.
Just some more ideas on the deck and ideas I think we should try to figure out and move on to more important ideas like sideboarding.
Joe
I have been doinf some testing and it seems like twincast is better then spell snare. Its one of the most useful cards out of the board. Spell snare is amazing if u have it before the combo which doesnt happen often enough, where twincast is useful with so many spells in the deck and opposing spell like force of will or even more fun spells like fact or fiction or ancestral visions.
I do have a question though. How did the person the posted a 7-3 vs black thresh play against them and how did u board. There is a decline in the amount of thresh in my area but if u are matched up against one it is black thresh.
I went 1 and 1 in matches. I beat Threshold because of what I've been saying. I resolved an early Countertop and then proceeded to counter all of his creatures - which gave me all day to go off. Of course he didnQuote:
Originally Posted by Willoe
t side in Krosan Grips- who would? I just went off with a few Brain Freeze effects.
That thing you don't understand, here's what happens:
I get down a Sensei's diving top, so does he. When he plays his Counterbalnce I wish for Commandeer to steal it and gg! he just happens to go nuts with every FoW
What would you have done if he had played a turn 2 Tarmogoyf? Or, even worse, his own Counterbalance?
Even if I'm repeating myself: for Counter Top to be effective you need a (reliable) way to deal with threads that slip past it or get down before you get it online. In Solidarity, if you want a way to prevent opposing Counterbalances from hitting play, have Force of Will ready (or maybe Spell Snare if you like it). If you reguarly have the time to find CB + Top and play them, then you should totally be winning anyways.
Also a 1-1 against Threshold is nothing special, actually if two games are played, this is the most likely result.
@Shimster: I'd be interested about you games against Black Thresh as well. Do you think, you are able to post a short summary of the games, how you won them and who you played against?
I know the boarding plan was something like -3 Remand -1 Impulse and -1 Flash of Insight for 3 Grip and 2 Twincast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Phanel
Personally I'd do:
-3 Remand
-1 Meditate
-1 Turnabout
-1 Opt
+3 Grip
+2 Twincast
+1 Brain Freeze
Whats the reasoning behind this boarding plan?Quote:
Personally I'd do:
-3 Remand
-1 Meditate
-1 Turnabout
-1 Opt
+3 Grip
+2 Twincast
+1 Brain Freeze
First of i never side out business like Meditate and Turnabout.
When playing against CB i want to hit as much key spells as possible without the need to look for them via cantrips. It happens that CB especially hits these setup spells (cmc 1 and 2).
Second why bother and clunk up your deck with stuff like Twincast and Brain Freeze? The only thing you can hit with TC is FoW and the multiple small combo start doesnt work that well because of their clock.
For comparison my sb plan against balanced ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh:
-1 Remand
-1 Impulse
-1 Opt
+3 Grip
With currently 1 MD Cryptic Command and 4 Remand.
Like i said, when CB hits you cant sculpt your hand with cantrips so i side these two out.
1 Remand because its a little bit too slow and i dont want to cut any other crucial card. On the other hand CB doesnt always come down turn two so its still great to have some.
EDIT: I forgot that you meant black ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, i thought of the normal Ugw version.
In this case Twincast is indeed handy versus Thoughtseize.
I would go like above then and additionaly
-1 another Remand and maybe the third Renabd or the second Opt, i am undecided here.
Remand sucks against Threshold. It really does. Basically against every version. You can't reliably counter anything, except for a turn 3 drop with you on the play, because of Daze. After that, Remand shouldn't be in your hand anymore anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
Brain Freeze, on the other hand, is really good against Thresh. Fighting trough counters drains a lot of resources, and you will often find a Brain Freeze in your hand a good card. You can even go off more than once, finishing both with a small Freeze. This plan does work well. It did work in the past and it does work better now, since Thesh's clock slightly slowed because of both Counterbalance, which doesn't attack usually, and Goyf in place of Werebear.
I board out business because I have acces to Twincast, which can function as either. I realise it's dangerous, but with some smart playing you can usually use one for an extra untap of Meditate.
Cutting Flash of Insight? Against Counterbalance? Seriously?
I do like the rest of that (Shimster's) plan though.
Boarding out Meditate is not a good plan. Against Counterbalance, Meditate can still be used as a setup spell to refill your hand (especially useful after a counterwar about CB involving FoW, but also if their Counterbalance resolved).