[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Zoo is like ... Cosi's Trickster meeting one of the 20 direct burn spells rather sooner than later.

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And wouldn't you prefer he hits that rather than one of your lords? I for one know for certain that I prefer a 1cc dork to get hit rather than a lord.
Not to mention that if you wasteland one of their already existing lands they will be forced to fetch a new land thus making it even more of a target for their removal ... again a good thing.
Any creature that has a tag that tells your opponent "remove me sooner rather than sometimes later" is a good creature in my experience.

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Originally Posted by magicb

Any creature that has a tag that tells your opponent "remove me sooner rather than sometimes later" is a good creature in my experience.

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If this is actually what Cosi's Trickster did, then he would be good. As is though, he basically says, "Continue playing as normally, because you can still out-class me all day long."

For Trickster to even get as big as a Nacatl, your opponent would have to fetch-land twice.

Not to mention that against the huge number of decks that don't use shuffle effects, he's Merfolk of the Pearl Trident (with presumably cooler artwork.)

I think it's official... We didn't really get shit from Zendikar.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

If this is actually what Cosi's Trickster did, then he would be good. As is though, he basically says, "Continue playing as normally, because you can still out-class me all day long."

For Trickster to even get as big as a Nacatl, your opponent would have to fetch-land twice.

Not to mention that against the huge number of decks that don't use shuffle effects, he's Merfolk of the Pearl Trident (with presumably cooler artwork.)

I think it's official... We didn't really get shit from Zendikar.

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I think Trickster deserves some playtesting. Its 1/1 okay, an opponent would have to fetch at least once IMHO or twice and when a Lord hits the board hes gonna be bigger than Catcher. In short, the Lords can make him even bigger as a one-drop.

The Trickster doesn't hold up in the mirror - which makes him unplayable IMO.

It's too bad b/c. he would be good against the majority of the field and Zoo in particular.

We might have to wait for the expansions to see if a super Folk comes around.

How about this:

2UU
2/2
Merfolk Wizard
Pro Red
"Tap target creature opponent controls for every creature you control that attacks."

I strangely agree with SMR's point, based on the fact that I think there's only really three reasons to play a deck:

1. A case can be made that it's the best deck.
2. A case can be made that it's a deck that it's favorable against all of the best deck or decks.
3. You're incredibly skilled with the deck and far less likely to make mistakes with it (Irrelevant for the purpose of this post.)

In case 1, if it's a deck to beat, other people will play it, because people like to win. Therefore, your version needs to beat other versions. A classic example of this was back in Lille at the time of Threshold's rise to prominence, when the top version's plan was to use burn for removal and Meddling Mage everybody else's Swords to Plowshares.

In case 2, you should still plan for the mirror, because if your plan is successful and you're right, it has a good chance to become a prominently played deck in the near future. See Merfolk.

So with all that said, I think you need an edge in the mirror. However this is best done is probably open to interpretation, and I sense a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors setup might exist between Mono U with Stifle, Mono U without Stifle, and UW with Swords.

The point, however, is that Tricky C doesn't cut it.

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Originally Posted by magicb

And wouldn't you prefer he hits that rather than one of your lords? I for one know for certain that I prefer a 1cc dork to get hit rather than a lord.
Not to mention that if you wasteland one of their already existing lands they will be forced to fetch a new land thus making it even more of a target for their removal ... again a good thing.
Any creature that has a tag that tells your opponent "remove me sooner rather than sometimes later" is a good creature in my experience.

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Too many ifs. If I can play him Turn 1 (he is still a horrible topdeck) and if I had a Wasteland and if my opponents needs to fetch. In how many games will exactly that happen? The good about Catcher is that with Daze backup he makes an opponents think hard about playing a spell too early which also grants us time to develop. Well at least he made it into a discussion ...

I hope there aren't actual conversations about replacing Cursecatcher with any of these new dudes. I mean, come on. At one mana, you don't get much. In blue, you get even less. And this is a guy that is both a Force Spike against combo and grows into a rather formidable beater against most everything else. I would gladly go with something better should the opportunity present itself, but Cursecatcher sets the bar pretty high.

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Originally Posted by Finn

I hope there aren't actual conversations about replacing Cursecatcher with any of these new dudes. I mean, come on. At one mana, you don't get much. In blue, you get even less. And this is a guy that is both a Force Spike against combo and grows into a rather formidable beater against most everything else. I would gladly go with something better should the opportunity present itself, but Cursecatcher sets the bar pretty high.

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QFT.

In my experience, as someone who has played against Merfolk an obnoxious amount of times, mono-blue lists with cursecatcher + stifle are always the biggest pain in the ass. Please keep dropping stifle & splashing green :D.

Edit: I think first turn curse catcher is almost more bothersome than first turn vial. He plays extremely well into the mana-denial strategy with stifle/waste/daze.

I've been doing some thinking about the differences between Canadian Threshold and Merfolk. Both decks utilize the Waste/Stifle/Daze approach. However, Threshold is less mana hungry and Merfolk is more mana hungry. Obviously Merfolk runs Vial, but this got me to thinking. Even with Cursecatcher, is Canadian Thresh able to take better advantage of the tempo gain than Merfolk? This tempo strategy is so lethal right now.

For those that don't run Stifle; why are you playing Merfolk? Without that tempo package, you're no better off than Zoo or Goblins (aside from the better combo matchup, which hardly sees play it seems). In fact, I'm actually thinking that adding just 1 more tempo element would actually improve the deck. I know the deck wants to curve out more than Canadian Thresh with its guys, and I know that Goblins doesn't run either Stifle or Daze, and I know that Goblins runs alot of mana cheating guys... but I really think Rishadan Port deserves testing in Merfolk. I'm not sure if this has been tested before, but here's what I'm thinking:

Tempo Merfolk?

Lands (22)
12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Mutavault

Creatures (18)
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Rejeerey
2 Merfolk Sovereign

Spells (20)
4 Aether Vial
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will

Sideboard (15)
4 Spell Snare
4 Hydroblast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I know that 12 blue sources is cutting it very, very thin. This is just for a test sample. I know the idea probably sounds crazy, and I know I have no credibility because I'm not a Merfolk player. However, after playing against alot of Merfolk lately with various builds, the Waste/Stifle/Daze/Curse combo has been very beastly. Including in Rishadan Port just makes me wonder how anyone would possibly be able to cast Firespout, let alone Wrath of God.

If I remember correctly, very early builds ran Port as sort of a carry-over from goblins. But I think it didn't make the cut when fighting for slots against Mutavault. Playing Waste and Port and Vault in a deck that really wants double blue seems pretty difficult to justify.

Stifle was getting cut because people hated the role confusion of whether they should be holding mana open to potentially screw their opponent or lay a dude and bring the beats. If the opponent doesn't play into getting their fetch blown away, they merfolk player has lost tempo.

Port makes me think it would be a much more controlling deck that seems like it would rely heavily on an early vial to stick in order to provide any kind of real pressure? Though, I have done no testing of my own, so it's hard to say.

If I were going to run Port I think mutavault would unfortunately have to go.

Edit: on a side note, Back to Basics in the board is possibly just better?

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

If I remember correctly, very early builds ran Port as sort of a carry-over from goblins. But I think it didn't make the cut when fighting for slots against Mutavault. Playing Waste and Port and Vault in a deck that really wants double blue seems pretty difficult to justify.

Stifle was getting cut because people hated the role confusion of whether they should be holding mana open to potentially screw their opponent or lay a dude and bring the beats. If the opponent doesn't play into getting their fetch blown away, they merfolk player has lost tempo.

Port makes me think it would be a much more controlling deck that seems like it would rely heavily on an early vial to stick in order to provide any kind of real pressure? Though, I have done no testing of my own, so it's hard to say.

If I were going to run Port I think mutavault would unfortunately have to go.

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If you're going to take out mutavault you might as well not play the deck at all. Any time I've played Merfolk, the mutavault is always MVP.

I have no testing with the idea, I just figured I'd post my thoughts on the matter. The mana denial tempo that the deck uses has been a huge determining factor against me in alot of matchups.

Let's zoom in most importantly on red decks though; manabase hate, does it affect Goyf Sligh? Probably not. Will it affect Zoo? Possibly. Will it affect Goblins? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Wrath_Of_Houlding

If you're going to take out mutavault you might as well not play the deck at all. Any time I've played Merfolk, the mutavault is always MVP.

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I wasn't saying you should, I was just saying that if one was going to be playing a list with Rishadan Port, they wouldn't have room.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

For those that don't run Stifle; why are you playing Merfolk?

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Because the deck is:

1. Ridiculously consistent.
2. Capable of playing a reactive role effectively without any mana open.
3. Packed with cards that are all synergistic with one another.

I play Merfolk like an aggro deck. A pure, blue aggro deck that gets ridiculous card advantage and can have near lethal damage with almost any four threats on the table. Any control elements I play I can play without utilizing the precious mana I should be spending to assert my board position.

Stifle, while awesome in a lot of situations, forces me to keep mana open. I don't like keeping mana open in an aggro deck. So while it may be fantastic in the mana denial package, it has this blemish.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Because the deck is:

1. Ridiculously consistent.
2. Capable of playing a reactive role effectively without any mana open.
3. Packed with cards that are all synergistic with one another.

I play Merfolk like an aggro deck. A pure, blue aggro deck that gets ridiculous card advantage and can have near lethal damage with almost any four threats on the table. Any control elements I play I can play without utilizing the precious mana I should be spending to assert my board position.

Stifle, while awesome in a lot of situations, forces me to keep mana open. I don't like keeping mana open in an aggro deck. So while it may be fantastic in the mana denial package, it has this blemish.

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This.

Basically, in my mind, one plays Merfolk because it's an aggro deck that gets to use counterspells, and is virtually immune to non-basic hate.

Also, I find that the tempo I gain when my opponent assumes I have Stifle open (but in reality just didn't have anything productive to do with that one blue mana and don't even have Stifle anywhere in my 75) largely outweighs the tempo that I gain when I use Stifle on a fetch. When people see that you're running Merfolk, they become more reluctant to even play their fetches, let alone use them... And very often, this means that they play right into the hands of your Wastelands.

Merfolk is a pretty tight list, in that there's not a lot of room to fit in personalizing touches to your list. Cutting Stifle opens up some slots for other things, and it doesn't hurt that quite a few people still play around it even when you're not using it.

Of course, I actually play the deck, what do I know? :tongue:

Duke's got a good point about the deck not having a lot of room for personal touches, but it does have a little bit.

Land counts in Merfolk seem to usually end up at 20, and rarely is there a variance of more than 1 either way. The standard Merfolk
count seems to be 20, with 16 of those being considered untouchable. And running Vial, Standstill, Daze, and Force in 4 of's is pretty constant. This leaves 4 slots open, with possibly as many as six or seven if you skimp on land and Merfolk.

Oddly, what people do with those six slots determines a lot. Some people run Stifle. Some splash for STP. Some run combinations of Stifle and Echoing Truth. I run Misdirection. Some have a couple Jittes. Some take the Merfolk count above 20.

A deck packing Stifle and Echoing Truth, for example, is going to play differently than one packing Misdirection and Jitte. One plays more tricky and disruptive, one plays very balls to the wall. While I generally love tricky and disruptive, I prefer balls to the wall in this case.

Ok, I understand. Again, I've never piloted the deck, I've just been on the opposite side of the table of it. I've always been most worried about the mana denial package, but maybe that's because of the style decks I'm always playing with.

Makes sense though.

...Hoping I didn't just come off like too much of an asshole. :wink:

Also, as far as increased mana disruption, I've seen some people main-deck 2-3 copies of Back to Basics, and this seems to me like it would fit in more seamlessly than running Rishadan Port. Goblins gets away with Port because they have multiple ways of cheating creatures into play (Vial, Lackey, Instigator), but Merfolk is just a little too mana-hungry to get much use out of Port without hindering its own development, IMHO.

I don't even think you'd necessarily need to also use Stifle in order to get good use out of B2B, although it would probably help, since you can stymie their attempts to fetch basics.

@Hanni: I'm actually not trying to downplay the validity of Stifle and the mana denial package. It's actually pretty strong. It just doesn't fit in the mold of how I play the deck.

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@Hanni: I'm actually not trying to downplay the validity of Stifle and the mana denial package. It's actually pretty strong. It just doesn't fit in the mold of how I play the deck.

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I didn't mean Stifle. I'd run 4 if I played the deck. I was more referring to Port.

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Also, as far as increased mana disruption, I've seen some people main-deck 2-3 copies of Back to Basics, and this seems to me like it would fit in more seamlessly than running Rishadan Port. Goblins gets away with Port because they have multiple ways of cheating creatures into play (Vial, Lackey, Instigator), but Merfolk is just a little too mana-hungry to get much use out of Port without hindering its own development, IMHO.

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But B2B shuts down your Mutavaults, which essentially make your Standstills lame. Port should fit much better than B2B, since it still tapes for mana, considering alot of your Merfolk do have a colorless in the cost. That, and it can also fuel Jittes and SoFI's better to run 22 lands than 20 or less (not saying 20 cannot efficiently run Jitte, of course). I just figured that if you were dropping land, playing Stifle, playing Wasteland... and then you had no more, Port could be used to curve out completely if you have nothing else to do. This in turn strengthens Cursecatcher and Daze even further, and can potentially shut opponent's completely down for far too long to recover from. My biggest intention was to prevent players from ever being able to cast Firespout or WoG until they were dead.

At the same time, if Goblins doesn't have Vial (and/or if you can answer or eventually block Lackey), they are seriously screwed without lands. Considering alot of Goblins splashes a secondary color, some splash 3 colors, and alot of Goblins run 6-8 fetchlands, 3-6 duals, 4-8 colorless nonbasics, and sometimes a very low amount of actual basic Mountains, that maybe attacking their manabase would allow you to gain an advantage in that matchup preboard before bringing in equipment. I know Stifle itself is a powerhouse against Goblins.

That was my line of reasoning, anyway. I'm probably completely off, though, and I'll freely admit it since I've never actually played Merfolk. I'm just basing this off of prior experience with both Tempo Thresh and multiple splash variants of Goblins.