I disagree, Deathrite Shaman has not made the metagame more diverse it has been adopted in or antiquated most every midrange shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
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I disagree, Deathrite Shaman has not made the metagame more diverse it has been adopted in or antiquated most every midrange shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
yes, as do I. I still have trouble with it. I can't deal with their goyfs, jaces, lilianas, stoneforge mystics, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
When my opponent does not care about what I do for the first 5 turns of the game, that is bad. I swords my opponent's deathrite? He decays my vial. Swords deathrite? suspend ancestral visions. Deathrite lives? Goyf, thoughtseize or Liliana -2 pass. Seriously. The fuck.
DRS, JtMS, Show and Tell, Griselbrand...
All good cards, none of which need to be banned. My real problem with the list is that there's nothing mono-Green, White, or Red, and not one of the cards is oriented towards truly aggressive strategies. If they could bring the other colors and straight aggro up a bit in power I think the format would be a lot healthier overall.
wrong. Deathrite needs to go. Like, now.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
I have no idea, perhaps you shouldn't play super mediocre decks like Death and Taxes?Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Write your essay. I mean I know I was talking about Banning SnT before (and I still want that to happen), but I never said anything as abrupt and borderline aggressive as this. Man tone it back and write out all your reasons. The best way to have a debate is to start with points to debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Make your case, then open the floor.
Regardless of whether or not it needs to be banned, it seems low-impact enough at first blush that I doubt Wizards will ever ban it. It obviously has a disgustingly high level of utility, but I don't think it's broken enough as either an enabler or a win condition to get banned.
Having said that, I don't think Deathrite Shaman is particularly good for the format--it just does too much. (Being grave hate, mana acceleration, a win condition, and a blocker is quite a lot.) I think card designs should be narrower.
Dont for get Life Gain ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lochlan
I do see how DRS has warped the format a bit, but I do not think it is necessarily for the worst. As has been pointed out, there are answers. nedleeds pointed out many awesome cards vs Deathrite decks. People just need to be creative and stop just listening to others.
Did he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Blood Moon does nothing, stone nothing, unless they're too greedy to fetch at least a basic--and it still doesn't stop DRS from generating colored mana under a Moon effect (assuming lands in the yard obv)! Pyroclasm is symmetrical, which can be problematic depending on what deck we're talking about. Grim Lavamancer can be kept off its graveyard by...Deathrite Shaman. Cursed Totem is definitely not a card unless we're playing Lands or something. Ground Seal hasn't been playable in years. Suppression Field slows activated abilities down, but doesn't stop them.
Nedleeds has stated himself, and on multiple occasions, that he doesn't really even play the format. So, no offense to him, but it's not surprising that he listed a bunch of fairly narrow and relatively ineffective answers. I think his Cursed Totem suggestion was closest to the mark. If you want to fight DRS, you have to fight all of its activated abilities simultaneously--so realistically we're talking about Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker. But then you might not have a card to stop the Jace or Liliana the DRS is enabling.
And that right there is the biggest problem that I see: if we're attacking DRS, we're probably not attacking whatever plans DRS helps enable.
Edit: the best way I've found to beat "DRS" itself is Rest in Peace. But then those decks are also running a set of Abrupt Decay, so any permanent based hate (including needle effects) aren't going to hang around for long.
I've found Relic of Progenitus to be quite handy in dealing with DRS, and it's quite useful beyond that since it can shrink Goyfs and turn itself into a card if your opponent tries to Abrupt Decay it. But I also agree that hating out DRS doesn't really hate out the deck that uses DRS.
But it made some of the midrange shells that were otherwise suboptimal or uncommon (Junk, Jund, Shardless Agent was in decks before RtR) come into the limelight of the Legacy metagame. Also, with the waning of Miracle decks, we have different types of combo decks top 8-16'ing from Elves to OmniTell to Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Woah, I did not mean to start this shitstorm.
I'm not saying DRS is going to be banned this month, but I would not be surprised if they did ban it.
I would imagine that Wizards and the DCI would give the Legacy metagame sometime to adapt first.
Something to point out at the moment for what its worth
a)The Legacy metagame is mostly midrange and combo decks.
b)Actual aggro decks have been on the decline ever since summer/spring 2012. (Zoo, Merfolk, etc)
c)Actual control decks are almost extinct since summer/spring 2012. (Landstill, Stax, etc) Counterbalance can be argued as the last Legacy deck most resembling old school control, but it has adapted a combo finish.
d)Wizards is doing a good job of making creatures relevant in all formats. (Midrange vs combo in Legacy, Midrange vs combo midrange vs combo in Modern, Midrange in Standard)
I really don't like seeing too many midrange decks. The games usually end up with who actually has the better draws.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ly/feature/255
No changes. Continue your bitching, folks.
This is true of every game of Magic ever played, to one degree or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
That pointless statement aside, shorter games tend to be based more on who draws well and less on who plays better as, generally speaking, more time allows for more possibility of skilled play and to recover from poor early draws. I'd much rather have a format full of decks that slowly win over six to eight turns than one where people either win or completely lock the opponent out in the first two, as that format would revolve much more around skilled play and much less around people getting silly draws and just winning.
so you never dealt with a "top deck for the win" kinda game huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
Deathrite is an insane card. But honestly, in a format where I've died turn 1 or 2, Deathrite is far from the scariest thing I've faced. I agree the card is really pushing it in terms of power level. A one mana dude that's a 1/2 that accelerates, shocks people, gains life and messes with GY.
Sure, the card is everywhere but so is Brainstorm, Force of Will and Wasteland. And I wouldn't ban any of those cards. I personally wouldn't ban anything right now if I had the choice but if I had to.....Deathrite wouldn't even be a consideration for me. It would be Show and Tell. They won't stop printing crazy stuff like Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Griselbrand etc.
As far as answers for DRS, I would say more one mana removal cards (Disfigure, Dismember, Path to Exile, Bolt etc.) or say Punishing Fire. Cursed Totem is a good card but IMO is only really good against a deck with a ton of dudes that would be affected, like say Elves. The decks that I assume people hate facing that have DRS, are all the mid-range decks from Junk, Deathblade, BUG etc. And those decks don't have many creatures that would be affected by totem.
If they did ban Deathrite Shaman, it'll not only prove they know not how to make cards nor manage an eternal format, in which case they should let someone else do it.
-Matt
I've always thought that DRS would have been better if it only had 1 toughness. Anyone else ever think something like that (I mean, if it only had 1 toughness then at least a lackey or random 1/1 tokens can trade with it, right?)
Deathrite is not nearly good or ubiquitous enough to ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
+100, this is what needs to happen to really diversify legacy. They could also print stuff to try and push the playability of mono colored decks. Why can't they just give us one set of Legacy playables that wouldn't be legal in Standard and Modern? Like a gift back to the players who love their game the most? People say it's because WoTC doesn't make money off Legacy players, but they easily could if they really wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
why can't they give death and taxes a decent answer to the BUG decks. I'm sick of getting my vial decayed.
Then go splash red then use Boros Cham. lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Folks, we're complaining about Naturalize.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Faith's Shield and Devoted Caretaker don't even require the splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by rnightingale
I play goblins and know the feeling. Still, what do you want in as an answer? Art hate is ambiguous among all the decks. Decay is far from the only one you will ever face. Krosan grip is good too. Ban that as well? What about Wear//Tear? Shattering spree, smash to smithereens... Where do you stop if you go down this path?Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
What the hell did I just read?
Really, clamping for the banning of Abrupt Decay?
Terror and Abrupt Decay are so oppressive, man.
I still want to see either SnT or at least Leyline gone. : /
Pretty sure monovfox has been trolling the whole time...
I think it is a real shame they didn't ban island. They keep getting the opportunity and keep skipping over the most oppressive card in the field.
That's a special ban that is saved for April 1st.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Fanatic
If I look at different decks (arch-types ed.) I the format looks healthy, so no bannings. There are alot of decks with blue in them in the top-tiers though. I think the only way to stop this is to ban Brainstorm though. Force of Will will make an impact too, but I fear that will need alot of follow bannings to stop fast combo.
Banning Brainstorm would be intresting to see. If you look at the alternatives, there is quite a gap between it and the second best options like Ponder and Sensei's Divining Top. Blue decks will take a hit, but it's very hard for me to see what the impact will be exactly.
I would like to see how the decks and the Meta will change with Brainstorm out of the format. But if it won't get the axe I really don't mind. I think the format is healthy as it is.
.Bb>
so basically because your.deck is bad vs a card, they should ban it? what is this, modern?
Black disruption would become a lot better, and i think SnT decks would take the biggest hit (combo that is already vulnerable to discard lose one of the best cantrip + way to defend against discard).Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
I think a brainstorm ban would be extremely beneficial to the format, making blue based combo and most combo in general much more vulnerable to black forms of disruption, while control would be hit less due to ability to use SDT (not super deepthroat, sensei's divining top) efficiently differently from most combo decks which don't have as much mana around, and due to less reliance on extremely key cards like most combo (SnT, Emmy/Omni etc...)
However, there's also the chance that the format just move naturally away from blue. There need to be more printing for that to happen though (Thalia was a good example, Thoughtseize has been there for a while, and Judge's Familiar is technically playable in white too), something like a black instant pitch discard duress that cost you life (like 1 life and 1 black card to duress, instant, normal cost BB), a R spellshock based creature (R, Elemental, 1/1, sacrifice: deal 1 damage to target creature or player for each spell on the stack) or even some artifact based counterspell like:
Jar of Spells 6
Artifact
Flash
Jar of Spells cost 1 less for each card in your hand
Imprint - Whenever Jar of Spells come into play, you may exile target instant or sorcery spell from the stack and imprint it into Jar of Spells
6, T: you may play a copy of the imprinted spell without playing its mana cost
Brainstorm's yet another card that doesn't need to be banned. IMO the format needs more strong cards in the right places, not less strong cards overall. Aggressive strategies, Red/White/Green, and straight control all need a little boost, either in consistency or power level, and then the format could really start moving back towards being a tad more health.
Not that it isn't healthy right now, it just so happens that some colors have no specific cards on the general power level of, say, DRS or Brainstorm, and straight aggro hasn't been well represented since Zoo died off as a deck a while back.
Really the only archetype I don't want to see represented by a top tier deck is Prison. I personally have no problem with the occasional Prison deck running around, but if the format becomes truly dominated by Prison decks it ruins the format in its entirety. Even one top tier Prison deck would probably do the same thing.
this thread always goes the way of ban brain storm.... it's fine. really.
If they banned brainstorm, Hymn and Thoughtseize go up in usefulness by a metric fuckton. But they won't ban it, so it's okay folks.
-Matt
"Assuming lands in the yard" ... so how exactly are you getting those Mountains in the yard again? Moving to discard? I should have posted some context, Blood Moon was in reference to DRS being shoved in blue decks. You are abysmally ignorant if you think a fast turn one / turn two blood moon does "stone nothing" against a DRS. they get 1 fetch in the yard? You know what a fetchland does with Blood Moon out? "Stone nothing".Quote:
Originally Posted by lochlan
I understand how Pyroclasm works, we don't need the Portal "this includes your creatures" update. I'm just pointing out there are decks now, Esperdeath pile where Pyroclasm kills almost every threat in their deck. Again ... I named some more obscure cards that internet decks don't include because stating thatQuote:
Pyroclasm is symmetrical, which can be problematic depending on what deck we're talking about.
- lightning bolt
- stp
- punishing fire
- abrupt decay
kill him would just be a waste of text since anyone with a fucking brain understands that those cards can one-for-one a 1/2 man.
Good luck with that. Again we are just talking semantics, I play my Lavamancer off a fetch and pass and you really can't reliably cast DRS w/o removing said Lavamancer. So it cuts both ways. It's not like Grim Lavamancer targets, if you have priority you can activate and remove the cards as cost.Quote:
Grim Lavamancer can be kept off its graveyard by...Deathrite Shaman.
Who is we? I mean is the card banned unless your deck is a lands deck copied from a SCG top 8? This statement is just internet babble with no reasoning. If your deck contains no creatures with activated abilities, and can support 2 mana, then Cursed Totem is a fine card. It slows Maverick, elves, 4xdrs 4xsfm decks, griselbrand.Quote:
Cursed Totem is definitely not a card unless we're playing Lands or something.
The discussion again is centered around DRS ... but Ground Seal stops quite a few problem cards and it replaces itself, just because "we" don't play it doesn't mean it's unplayable.Quote:
Ground Seal hasn't been playable in years.
You've never cast Suppression Field in your life if you are making statements like this. It makes the abilities not worth their cost. It also makes the supporting cards that make DRS good; awful.Quote:
Suppression Field slows activated abilities down, but doesn't stop them.
2, T: Exile target land from a yard and make a mana
2G, T: Exile target man from a yard and gain 2 life
2B, T: Exile target sor/inst from a yard and opponents lose 2 life
... great card. Suppression Field also shuts out all the cards that support DRS (fetches, wastelands, in deathblade sfm / equips / jace) ... but you failed to see that with respect to Blood Moon so it's no wonder you whiffed here also.
You then dismiss all permanent based solutions based on the fact that one for one permanent removal exists. Deep.
The reason straight aggro doesn't exist isn't because it is bad per say; it is because of the efficiency in Legacy. I don't need to play a Wild Nacatl deck full of creatures, lose to combo, and have uncontrollable topdecks when I can play a Delver based deck, kill almost as quickly, have good combo MUs, and a ton of library manipulation. If I want to be even faster than a Delver deck, pure aggro still isn't my answer. At that point, I should be playing combo. Red as a color is pretty underpowered, so it's fine to want some power creep, but if you are asking for an aggro deck to be just as fast as a combo deck then that is entirely unreasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
Also, since people decide to call for a Brainstorm banning now and again... Brainstorm promotes format diversity and is a fun and skill-testing card. Tons of archtypes are playable because of the manipulation that Brainstorm provides. If you are some duder calling for Brainstorm to be banned, take a moment and think about whether it's because you actually think the format would be a better place or if you just don't want to shell out for Blue duals.
Blue has many many problem cards, Brainstorm is not one of them.
It does not work in a vacuum, you need a fetch open to get the most use out of them, they can reactivatly save you from a discard but slow you down in the process. I really hate blue, but I can't find it in me to hate that card.
Leyline of F*ck You
If a white creature with an ability and less than 4 power would enter the battlefield, exile it instead.
Leyline of What Is This Sh*t
Spells you cast within the first three turns can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Leyline of Sanctity
You have hexproof.