Ended 5-4 after losing to another dredge player. Beat burn in the last round. Pretty disappointing weekend :/
Hopefully next weekend goes better....jupiter + scg philly
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Ended 5-4 after losing to another dredge player. Beat burn in the last round. Pretty disappointing weekend :/
Hopefully next weekend goes better....jupiter + scg philly
I generally reply backwards to threads...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Yeah, I believe my whole crew will be at Jupiter this month. We've all been randomly busy, and it's hard to want to go if there's only 2 people going up haha.
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Stage/Depths, I have no idea. I just can't wait to shift for it on like... turn 2 with phyrexian tower--because fuck yeah all-in plays.
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My board...I should actually just go run to my car and grab my box... one sec...
3x REB, 3x Extirpate, 2x Slaughter Games, 1x Scapeshift, 1x Malestrom Pules, 1x Innocent Blood, 1x Reanimate, 1x Reverent Silence, 1x Pyroclasm, 1x Damnation
When switching cards I used the mind set of "what do I need, what am I going to miss the most". I need to stuff a perish (wish I had a virtues ruin) back in, and I don't have a thoughtseize // have never REALLY wanted one. This might be why I lose to Esper 99%. My most wished for probably go something like... Scapeshift, Pyroclasm, Damnation, Reanimate, Innocent Blood...
Pulse could come out pretty safely from my perspective. That in mind, I didn't actually tune my REB/Slaughter games, I swapped a slaughter for Extirpate #1, then I don't have collective voyage or thoughtseize. I'll probably swap damnation for perish to match your list (as the teeg kill). It's not virtues ruin, but it's slightly closer. I would run my current list up at NELC, mainly out of not thinking about it. The extirpates should PROBABLY be something more combo-hatey. Thorn of amethyst? I Dunno LOL ¯\(°_o)/¯
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I'll take that point about omniclash to heart. Since I have to play it, I'll have to keep dealing with it.
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Agree 100% here. Generally when I play against her in particular I'm pretty drained. More practice will make more perfecter.
All this being said, Shift is currently in pieces so my GF can play Green Zombardment. It'll be back together for NELC though, just won't be able to play it =P GRIXIS AFFINITY HOOOOOOOO!
I went to SCG Columbus, but I played BUG since I know half of the meta was going to be show and tell and storm. But I played against neither and went 5-4, should of stuck with Rector Fit. But I am thinking of going to SCG Philly, I was wondering if anyone has actually tried the Enlightened Tutor package for Rector in SB?
Ive tried the e tutor package in the board in the past and it was relatively inefficient, the extra access to bullets and batterskull is less desirable than the combo hate the typical board packs.
I chuckled because you could've completely omitted this part and we'd be none the wiser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiig
But the fact that you chuckled made it worth the trip ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Alright, report time. I derped this morning and left my notes at home, so I won't have most player names and details might be sketchy. You should be able to get a rough feel for it though.
List was per my sig. Only changes I made were to replace Virtue's Ruin with Perish once again (I expected a higher than average elf turnout and wanted a 2nd sweeper that hit them), and I cut Thoughtseize in favor of the 4th REB (as I was worried about OmniTell, and I realized that I haven't actually used that Thoughtseize in months).
R1: Small child with Junk (he was actually in his teens, I'd guess).
Not sure if format guru-to-be or borrowing cards, as a lot of his deck was foiled. I kept a somewhat shaky opener with a Veteran, 4 lands, and both (!!) Thragtusks. I should note here that my scouting revealed a very, VERY heavy fair-deck presence. There were upwards of 4 Tezzerets, a pile of BUG and RUG, a bunch of Blade, some Miracles, a lot of Junky and Poxy decks, and so forth. By comparison, I saw like 2 storm, 1 Show and Tell, 2 Elves, and so forth. So, I biased my keep towards that conclusion.
Anyway, I deploy my Explorer, who eats a Swords. My opponent then Inquisitions me and facepalms, much to my amusement. He had Bob and Library going, I make some Tusks and shoot up to like 35+ life, and then eventually I draw a Wish to Scapeshift him out from his mid-20s (Batterskull + Jitte).
No board.
Game 2 we play the Liliana game back and forth for a while, but I make a bunch of monsters and then Shift him out. Nothing of note here -- pretty standard match vs Junk.
R2: Riley Curran with Elves.
I immediately recognize my opponent by name as having won the previous SCG Columbus with Elves. Oh, joy.
Game one I mull aggressively into a gorgeous hand of Explorer, Therapy, Deed, and the mana to play it all. If I'm ever going to beat Elves g1, it's with this. I Therapy, calling Glimpse, and brick -- he has a hand with a bunch of Elves, including Symbiote + Visionary, not no Glimpse and no NO. Deed happens and wraths away most of his elves while I ramp. He re-deploys a bunch of elves. I Wish for Pyroclasm and kill his elves. He's finally out of cards in hand by this point, and just has like 4-5 lands in play. A turn or two later, Shift happens.
I board in all three Slaughter Games, the Pulse, the Perish, and maybe one or two other things that I don't remember, at the expense of Primeval Titan, both Tusks, and some other stuff.
Game two I again mull looking for business, and don't find anything too exciting. I keep a workable hand with a Wish and a Deed, but no discard. He makes some elves, and turns one of them into a Progenitus on t3. I tank for a moment, and determine that my out is either A: ripping Perish like a god, or B: play Deed, get smacked for 10, Deed@1 to kill elves next turn, then Wish for Innocent Blood to get rid of Progenitus. Unfortunately I don't rip Perish, and he proceeds to NO AGAIN next turn to Hoof me out before I get a chance to kill the hydra. Oof.
Game three is stupid. I disrupt him a bit, but he still makes a Progenitus. I Top, brick, sac Tribe-Elder, Top, see Perish. Hallelujah. Perish it away. Next turn he NOs again, getting Progenitus again. Lovely. I Green Sun for Witness, then Perish again. It dies again. We're both out of cards, and I had to shuffle away my Top to get the Witness. I proceed to draw lands while he draws a Scavenging Ooze which grows to epic proportions and kills me. He was dead to a Wish or a Shift at any point....just couldn't get there. Sign of things to come ._.
Still a really, really good match, though. Props to Riley for getting 9th, although I'm sure there's some salt there too, because I think he just missed on breakers.
R3: Dredge.
My opponent opens up with Gemstone Mine -> Careful Study, binning two Grave-Trolls. OH JOY.
He does the thing that his deck does while I do the thing that my deck does. I end up in this incredibly awkward situation where he has a like 11/11 troll, and I'm at <9. He also has all 4 Ichorids (he can bring back 3), and like 3 or 4 zombie tokens. I have Scapeshift in hand, and 7 lands out, but he's at 20 still because fucking Gemstone Mine is not City of Brass. I could Shift to kill the Troll (the Mine was dead and he couldn't regen), but then I lose to tokens/Ichorids. I could play the Deed in my hand and wrath away his Ichorids and tokens, but then the Troll kills me. Etc. I was one land short of both survival and/or winning. Very frustrating.
Brought in my Slaughter Games, took out Titan, one Tusk, and I think a Top. I agonized about whether or bring in the REBs or not (Breakthrough, Study, Narcomoeba), but elected to leave them out because I didn't have anything really to cut for them. Once M14 rules are out, I might bring a couple in and just not board anything out for them.
Game two my opponent mulls aggressively to find action. Tribe-Elder does the thing that it does against Dredge. I had a combo-y/race-y hand, and killed him before he could do much of anything.
Game three I Slaughter out his Ichorids followed by his Dread Returns, and that's pretty much that.
R4: Junnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnk
He may have actually been Dark Maverick, I'm not sure. He had multiple Pridemages g1, but he also had like Bobs and Goyfs and shit, so I dunno. Either way, he was a deck that doesn't have sufficient pressure or disruption to stop me from doing my thing, and I quickly introduced him to angry mountains both games.
R5: Sneak
And now the wheels fall off. I assessed my opponent as we sat down, and I decided that he was on a fair deck. He looked like a RUG player or a Blade player, so I went with that gut read and kept a beautiful hand for vs anything that is not trying to do something unfair. It had like double Explorer, Tribe-Elder, some lands, a Top, and a Deed. My opponent goes Island, Ponder, and I twitch. Could still be Stoneblade. They like to run a 1-of Ponder.
Next turn he goes Island, Ponder.
Fuck.
I ramp up as best I can, but can't find anything disruptive even with a Top + shuffles. I also can't find a Scpaeshift to just kill him. He eventually Shows me His Noodly Appendage. I tank the hit, because Explorer in play is hilarious vs Emrakul. I drop the 5, but still have enough lands in play to kill him if I draw a Wish or a Shift. Tops gets me one card deeper....it's a land.
I board in the REBs and all 3 Games, as per my new boarding strategy vs SnT (expect Leyline, so board in all copies of Games so that you can Prime Wish for Rev Silence). All 3 Deeds came out....don't recall for the rest of the slots. 1 Tusk, likely, then I dunno.
G2 I keep an opener of Therapy, double Explorer, Wish, REB, and two lands. He agonizes over his hand, but ends up keeping and shows me a t0 Leyline. This makes my hand worse, but still tenable. I deploy an Explorer and ship it. He drops a Lotus Petal and cracks it to Ponder. One of THOSE hands. He hits land, and fires off another cantrip. I contemplate Wishing for Silence while he's tapped out, but I decide that I'd rather have the ability to protect the Silence with REB, so I sandbag it for a turn and play a Top that I drew (and then spin EoT). He does something inconsequential and passes back. I Wish, and he allows it to resolve. I get and cast Silence. He attempts to Pierce it. I tank, and decide that it is actually worth fighting over. I thought about sandbagging the REB and trying to hit a follow-up Show and Tell, but opt to gamble and make my Therapy live again. The Leyline dies, and he passes back to me. I Therapy calling Griselbrand IIRC, and brick, seeing I think an Emrakul, a Sneak, and garbage. Flashback takes the Sneak. He stalls out while I Top into like 2 lands and a Tribe Elder. I take the Elder, shuffle, and Top: 2 lands and a Wood Elves. I take the Wood Elves, and Top. 2 lands and another Wood Elves. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. Meanwhile, my opponent finds a Show and Tell finally, and makes a monster. I've deployed my 2nd Explorer from long ago by now, and use the annihilator trigger as another shuffle, leaving me with like 9 lands and a Top in play. I spin. 3 lands. Draw for turn. 3rd card down is a land. I feel like throwing my deck.
R6: BUG Delver.
Still X-2, which is still live for top 32 -- which, incidentally, is what I need to qualify for the Invitational. So I'm still fine. Slightly tilted because lands, but I'm pretty good at not letting tilt get to me. Every game is a new one, and so forth.
My opponent opens Sea->Deathrite. Oh my god BUG, finally. [Note: I haven't played against Shardless, Stoneblade, or Deathblade in 18 rounds of SCG tournament magic in the past two opens).
Well, it turns out that he isn't Shardless at all, as he Dazes my Zenith@1. He then proceeds to Hymn me, then Hymn me again, then drop a Goyf and another Shaman. I'm off the Top since long ago, and am facing down lethal from a 3/4 Goyf and a pair of Shamans (I'm at 10). I realized that I can buy myself another turn by Wishing for Innocent Blood, making him get rid of a Shaman. That gets me another Top spin....which shows me triple land. OH WE'RE DOING THIS AGAIN.
I bring in REBs in exchange for Titan and other miscellanea. Titan wins if he sticks here, but I'd rather lower my curve, and if I'm Zenithing, I want Tusk or Hunts more than Titan here. Bad day for Titan, lol.
I keep an acceptable opener that has like Top, Deed, and some other goodies, but no Explorer. He opens with a Delver. It flips off of a Ponder, and then he Hymns me. I attempt to Wish (Innocent Blood), which gets Forced (pitching the Ponder). He drops a Goyf and another Delver. I REB the flipped Delver mainphase, and then his other Delver fails to flip. He continues to smack me. I attempt to make a Tusk, which gets DAZED [note: full life tilt. Who the fuck keeps Daze in, ON THE DRAW, AGAINST NIC FIT]. I Top into another Deed + 2 lands, and wrath away his dudes. He plays more dudes. I drop a Huntmaster (still seeing 2 lands). He Decays the token, which forces me to chump his Goyf with the 'Master. I Top: 3 lands.
I'm basically ready to table flip by this point, but I force myself to remain calm and am as civil as I can possibly be.
R7: Burn.
I knew sitting down that this guy was on burn, because my friend had just beat him last round sitting next to me.
This was a pretty textbook spanking of burn -- and I never even saw a Tusk, and only one Huntmaster. I just ramped and disrupted him with Therapy periodically, then checked with Therapy to make sure he didn't have a Price, then killed him. Both games.
R8: Dredge...again.
This guy's list was worse for me. It was once again Mana Dredge, but it was running Flayer of the Hatebound. That means that I have to shift my priorities with Slaughter Games, hitting his Dread Returns instead of his Ichorids first. Game one he had double LED. I hit a bridge with a Tribe-Elder, but he Faithless'd off and made a sufficiently large board that I couldn't do much to him.
Game two he has a Colisseum hand and is ready to orgasm his deck onto the table, so I have to Slaughter away his Dread Returns before he instagibs me, which leads to me dying to Ichorids. Fun fact: early in the game he Therapied me to take away my Tribe-Elder because that card is hilariously dredge hate. I died at 6 lands, with the Shift in hand. Turns out I really needed that Tribe-Elder ._____.
R9: Burn...again.
WANT TO BUY REAL DECKS. PST.
This guy gets me game one with exactsies the turn before death, and the other two games are very close as well. He was a fan of not attacking into my Veteran, but rather burning it EoT so as to make me stumble on mana and then untap and unload on me. From the burn perspective I'm not sure if this is good or not. I want to say that he was wasting a spell on my Explorer needlessly, but I can see him wanting to slow down my development to try to stutter me out of Huntmasters/Tusks/etc. Either way, I shifted him out both game 2 and game 3. Game 3 was actually so close on time before death that I couldn't use the Slaughter Games in my hand before I had to Shift. I like to Slaughter out their Price of Progresses so that Shift is guaranteed live. He had one card in hand, but I was staring death in the face next turn, and I had to just go for it. Pretty scary.
So, I ended the day 5-4, in 73rd place, after a very disappointing run.
Just as a recap, my matchups:
2 Junk, 2 Dredge, 2 Burn, 1 Sneak, 1 Elves, 1 BUG Delver.
It is incredibly hard to survive a day like that without tilting as you look to your left and right EVERY ROUND and see a literal sea of Shardless and Blade. But, the fates decree that you have to be the unlucky guy that gets paired vs the one combo player per table. More upsetting than my matchups, though, was that my deck was STILL fine....it just dug in its heels and stubbornly refused to work.
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Going forward, I'm definitely cutting the 4th REB. 4 was way too many....3 is the correct number for that card, at least for us. 3 is enough that you will see on average 1.5 per game, which is the frequency we want. I'm also thinking about cutting the Reanimate. Liliana of the Veil is actually somewhat lesser in presence right now, and I've generally learned how to play against her a bit better, so I need Reanimate less there. Cutting Reanimate means I'm just throwing away the Reanimator matchup, but that's bad enough in the first place that it's probably not fixable by virtue of having that slot. It also makes my Sneak matchup marginally worse. Reanimate has been randomly useful, and has won me a lot of games through the dumbest shit (Reanimate a Tribe-Elder to get a basic Forest while under Blood Moon, anyone?). Still, I think that it is the weakest link currently in my wishboard, and I want a 2nd sideboard slot so that I can board a pair of something and have a reasonable chance of seeing it.
I THINK that that something is going to be Golgari Charm. I can't think of any other sideboard option in Jund-colors that hits Elves, Sneak, and Omni with the same efficacy. Having 2 Charms boarded in should help vs Leyline of Sanctity-fueled combo, can hit Omni in response to Enter the Infinite, kill can Sneak Attacks that are left in play, can wrath Elves, etc.
Elves is definitely the thing that I want to shore up the most. I'm tired of getting within a hairs' breadth of beating that deck and then coming up short. Having something that's flexible enough to be brought in vs other combo decks is relevant, though.
Oh. One more thing for the "report post:" Everyone should consider revising their mental Therapy priority lists vs Elves. Between playing vs Ross Merriam and Riley Curran, I realized that Elves players are keeping Glimpse-less hands more and more often now. They're going for the NO plan much more...especially post-board. I actually think that it's more likely to hit a NO blind out of Elves than a Glimpse nowadays, with the advent of Hoof. It makes sense, really -- why Glimpse off (especially vs the Deed/Pyroclasm deck) and HOPE to hit your wincon, when you can instead just make a Progenitals or Hoof someone out. So yeah. Definitely going to be calling Natural Order over Glimpse now.
You totally should have tracked me down and said hello. If you do end up going to Philly, I expect you to find me D:Quote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
I had the exact opposite experience with it. My sideboard in my sig is a little out of date....okay, a lot out of date, but in my experience having the extra means to grab your hate cards while also having the added stability vs grindy fair decks was critical. I mean, you still need Leyline of Sanctity and Mindbreak Traps, and you still need your Nether Void (incidentally, Void is SO GOOD right now. Fuck you, Omniscience). But being able to actually grab legit hate cards like Canonist, Chalice@0 (vs storm), and so on was good. I would 100% run that Batterskull btw even without ETs. Like, just as a 1-of to hit mid-late game vs like Deathblade or some such. It does wonders for that matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by plogan
I think that were I to play Rector for Philly, my sideboard would look like the following:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Batterskull
1 Nether Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
Chalice of the Void is less good because Storm is more out of favor right now than it has been for a while. The combo du jour is OmniTell now -- same reason for the cutting of Humility. I expect less Sneak and more Omni. The metagame overall should resemble Baltimore's meta from two weeks ago, since the two are geographically comparable. That means a lot of Shardless and Blade still, with a couple of Elves and a significant OmniTell presence. While there isn't much that you can do about it in Rector, I would also expect a rise in the popularity of MUD. People are starting to figure out that MUD STOMPS OmniTell, hard. Trinisphere is a hell of a drug.
I could see arguments for replacing the Mindbreak Traps with other hate options, like putting the Humility back in, along with maybe like a 2-of something else. I dunno.
Don't bother with the Thoughtseize. I didn't miss it in the slightest. I would also not cut Pulse for anything. There's way too many times when you need a Wishable answer to [something annoying].Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiig
I believe someone asked for updates on BUG Nic Fit lately so I took it for a spin after a long rest. My list hasn't changed in the past couple months and it has been giving me good results, I just don't play it as much as I used to. The results from my last event are the following:
2-1 12-Post
2-0 UWr Miracle
2-0 RUG Tempo
2-1 OmniShow
Note that when I last played it, Enter the Infinite wasn't a deck yet. Here is my current BUG Fit list:
Creatures (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (27)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dust Bowl
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Islands
Sideboard (15)
1 Selkie Hedge-Mage
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Negate
4 Force of Will
Beating 12-Post post-board isn't that hard actually. All you have to do is race to Primeval Titan and counter their own Titan/Negate their ramp, then Dust Bowl will take them down. Miracle decks are a walk in the park with counterspells because they generally pack less counters than us and Counterbalance is worthless. Aggro decks are favorable as usual at the exception of Elves where Decay/Deed tend to be too slow.
Arianrhod, looking at your latest Scapewish sideboard, I'm wondering about Reverent Silence. Is it simply to be able to wish for it on turn 2 and hit an Omni that somehow didn't kill you, or is there something else behind it that makes it worth including alongside Maelstrom Pulse?
I'm also noticing Damnation's absence, which is understandable since Pyroclasm is usually enough and when it isn't, Innocent Blood will usually do the job. Perish vs Virtue's Ruin is obviously a metagame choice somewhat, but I assume you have Virtue's Ruin as a better choice against the field in general. I can see arguments for either and I wonder if you could explain why a little bit.
Thanks! Looking forward to seeing you and hopefully some others at Jupiter on Saturday. Sorry about the bad beats with Top, that sounds really infuriating and I'm impressed that you were able to keep yourself civil.
Reverent Silence is specifically and explicitly for Leyline of Sanctity. While generally not necessary vs fair decks that board Leylines, it is 100% critical vs Leyline-powered combo decks, specifically OmniTell and Sneak/Show, as the two most common examples. If they drop Leyline, we can't Therapy them and we can't Slaughter Games them, which removes our entire axis of interaction...then they just kill us.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIggins
I generally opt for Virtue's Ruin in most unknown/large metagames. The last few events, though, I've been getting knocked out by Elves at really inopportune points in the day, so I consciously made the switch to Perish so that I have another card against them. Once my ass is done being sore about Elves / if my changed Therapy priority makes the difference, it'll go back to being Virtue's Ruin, as I believe that Ruin hits a wider range of cards. I mean I guess Perish hits like Deathrite and Goyf...but we shouldn't be struggling there anyway, whereas Death and Taxes can randomly be challenging depending on their hand and our mana development.
I will definitely be at Jupiter, so I'll see you then.
@Qweerios BUG List. Why 4x Gitaxian Probes? Im highly confused.
Probe is nucking futs with Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Of course! Hahaha after playing TES I should know this... Is the blue splash really worth it for Jaces and Braistorms though? It just seems like any other splash color could give you better options.
Well the blue splash gives you access to Force of Will and Negate in the sideboard against unfair decks.
Yes, yes it absolutely is. I refuse to play storm without both of those cards, because probe/therapy is the only thing that's more demeaning to your opponent than a lethal Grapeshot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
/barn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Also, Jace backed up by Pernicious Deed is nothing to sneeze at. IMO the reason to go blue in Nic Fit is Jace, Force, and Negate. You get a few possible fringe benefits like Coiling Oracle, Consecrated Sphinx, and so forth...but they aren't enough of a reason to consider blue. I've made my stance on Brainstorm abundantly clear, and am not bringing that back up again. Don't listen to me when it comes to blue versions, though...I've never really gotten one to work well enough for my opinion to be taken credibly.
Some of that is probably because I would personally rather shit on the blue decks as opposed to join them.
Gitaxian Probe. I thought about it and never tried it because I thought the synergy was not worth the reduced card quality (trade spell for random card). I was very wrong I think. Made only a few test games so far but it was amazing. Having Therpay+Probe feels good. It even counts as a blue card for Force of Will. Also more cantrips = more Explorer Therapy starts and if they are fueled by Probe they get even better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
That looks really good.
MD
- I think would play 4 Jace TMS. He is the centerpiece of the deck and having multiples isn't all that bad because the Jace in play can shuffle superfluous copies away. Or turn it with the new rules into a Brainstorm.
Lands
- With 4 Probes you can safely go down to 22 lands.
- Has Stronghold been any good for you? Is there a particular matchup in which you want it?
SB
- I like to have 2 Damnations in the SB to combat D&T. Mother of Runes in combination with Revoker is a bitch. Damnation is also very useful against RUG, Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, Dragon Stompy and random Aggro. I also wouldn't go without Carpet of Flowers. All Top5 decks of May were Island based (Team America, RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracle) and Carpet is great against all five of them.
Hello nic fitters, I have some questions about a few things. I'll be getting the deck soon (the junk version since I have the duals for it) and I was wondering how good a few cards are. The first is yavimaya elder, and the second is vraska the unseen. Oh, and Gerrard's verdict over hymn since double black is harder to get in junk. Are any of these playable? Is tribe elder just better than the elder? I was also wondering if it is possible to play big garruk, primal hunter in junk. I've only really seen him played in B/G because the triple green, but is it really so much of a stretch to cast? Here's my list, I could use some suggestions since I'm new to the deck. Am I going too heavy on the 5-7 drops?
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Angel of Despair
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
Any answers would be appreciated, I know I asked a lot of questions.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
The reason why I don't play 4 copies of Jace is because it is bad in multiples when you haven't reached 4 mana. Finding 3 copies is not an issue, and he isn't my main win condition. Having 4 Jace is fine when he is at the top of your curve and essential to your gameplan. As it is now, he is a great source of CA and a great alternate win con but that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
As for the lands, I have as many colored sources as I always had in any Nic Fit deck. I play 23 lands because 3 of them are colorless.
Stronghold has been my main source of attrition in all of my successful Nic Fit decks. GSZ@6 for Prime Time grants you Tower + Stronghold which allows you to convert your draw step into a Thragtusk or a Witness per turn.
As for Damnation and Carpet in the SB, I dismissed them both a long time ago for a very simple reason:
there is nothing already in the mainboard that isn't good against fair decks. The mainboard of Nic Fit is and should always be 100% dedicated to fair matchups because trying to fit in reliable hate for combo is a bit like trying to fit 20 blue cards in Elves to support FoW, it sucks. I only get 15 slots to combat combo and I want to use them all. I remember that whenever I would land a Carpet vs. a blue deck, it was rewarding and fun, and then I realized that you really don't need it to dominate them, and that they quickly become dead cards. To me, Carpet is a textbook example of a win-more card.
Play damnation if active mother + revoker is a common thing in your meta, otherwise, take the game loss, they earned it...
massacre is also an option vs white, and you can use it to kill off your veteran explorers as well early in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
In general I think that a heavy anti-combo SB supported with a few slots dedicated to the decks you are most likely going to face is the way to go. Don't fall into the trap of "anti combo tunnel vision". There is nothing wrong with improving fair matchups with a few effective cards if you most likely have to play that matchup multiple times a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Blue decks (Carpet): RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracles, Team America
creature decks (Damnation): RUG, Team America, D&T, Maverick, Tribal aggro, other random Aggro (Dragon Stompy, Zoo)
Carpet of Flowers:
against Miracles/Stoneblade:
- Explorers are quite bad against Stoneblade and Miracles. They play as much Brainstorm/Jace as we so if one side decided to dedicate a card to ramp both players the outcome is not always favorable for that deck. Having one Explorer for GSZ is enough for spell heavy hands. I like the + 3 Carpet - 3 Explorer switch here so you have the same amount of extra Mana in the deck to cast Titan but without the drawback of ramping them into Jace, giant Entreat the Angels, Karakas/Clique and doing whatever they want with Snapcaster.
- You don't need 4 Decay and 4 Deed against them.
- Scavenging Ooze is bad, too.
against RUG / Team America:
- Primeval Titan, second Witness and Dust Bowl seem useless
- you are happy about any additional colored Mana source in the SB
against BUG Control:
- the matchup is very hard because they have so much CA so any help from the SB is good
Damnation:
Isn't Death and Taxes a thing everywhere? Regular Top16 in SCG as well as double top8 in Euro GPs. And they all play 4 Mother of Runes and 4 Phyrexian Revoker. It also fixes the deck's weakness against Tombstalker. Your list has only three outs against a resolved Tombstalker (Jace) and that is only temporary. Jace+Therapy can work but it is quite hard to pull off against the 4 Hymn deck.
Quick summary --Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecstatic_Conch
-) 5-drops are fine in larger quantities. You can get away with 4+ 5s. I wouldn't run more than a pair of 6s-and-ups, though. So like, 2 titans, 1 titan and 1 7-drop, etc.
-) Sakura-Tribe is WAY better than Yavimaya. STE is a 2-drop and it ramps instantly, whereas Yavimaya just puts the lands in your hand (doesn't actually ramp) and takes a turn to get sacrificed, assuming it doesn't eat a Swords on sight. Also, STE is random dredge hate.
-) Vraska is genuinely atrocious. Assume that she has her +1 ability in place as a piece of cardboard, and don't touch her.
-) Gerrard's Verdict is playable, but I don't think that it's worth running more than something like Thoughtseize. Sculpting their hand is a better course of action.
-) Big Garruk is fine to play in Junk, you just need to be careful with what colors you get.
I'd echo Tao's thoughts on Carpet here, and also note that you can use the Carpet mana during your turn to play creatures/sorceries, and then hold up your lands for countermagic. Likewise, if you want to run the more "powerful/slow" hate cards, like Cranial Extraction, it ramps you up to them before the opposing combo deck can really get online most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Damnation is solid against Elves, aside from shoring up other matchups. I agree that it isn't really necessary, though -- now, if suddenly the Maverick or DnT players in your area start figuring out how to play the matchup, then maybe. For other people who would want to work on your list for their metas (Tao), then almost assuredly. But from what I've heard of your meta specifically, I'd agree that Damnation isn't needed.
"Blue decks (Carpet): RUG, BUG Control, Blade, Miracles, Team America
creature decks (Damnation): RUG, Team America, D&T, Maverick, Tribal aggro, other random Aggro (Dragon Stompy, Zoo)"
I don't understand why you two are so obsessed with ramping against blue decks.
-RUG is a bye, and EtI/Sneak Show aren't, even with 15 SB slots dedicated to them so lets move on from there and agree this is a non-argument.
-BUG Control doesn't always have basics and the games go long at which point you both make all your land drops and reach whatever state of mana you desire. Exploding with a Carpet is a worthless gamble because without it, the deck is all fuel and disruption that outmatches theirs. The only control deck that should make you consider bringing in more than Negate and FoW is 12-Post, and that deck is fairly rare. You don't need ramp against control because you are the bigger control deck, always.
(FYI, I hope it is assumed here that the deck goes -3 Explorers, -4 Deed/Decay for most control matchups and that Negates/FoW come in)
-Blade decks are a joke. Deal with Batterskull and counter Jace and there you have it. Once again, you are the bigger control deck, so don't even bother with ramp. Be satisfied with 1 land per turn, it will get you there... like 99% of the time.
-Miracles... Miracles!? This matchup is a joke with 8 counterspells post board. They. Cannot. Kill. Us. Keep your Deeds for entreat and CB, keep your Decays for CB, bring in the counters and Jace them out or land a Prime for both towers and loop tusks until they concede.
-Team America can be tough because of their heavy disruption (FoW, Hymn) and their fliers (Delver, Tombstalker). I agree that when the tempo matchup can ignore explorer, an alternate source of ramp can be necessary. However, look at the amount of combo decks out there, then play all of them 10 times each with the best anti-combo SB you can think of. First you'll question Nic Fit as a deck choice against a combo meta, and then you might realize that these matchups are so difficult compared to the rest of the fair field that you want as much hate as you can get.
As for Damnation, I would personally take Engineered Plague over it but that's beside the point. The deck is built for aggro and aggro is favorable no matter how you choose to put it. 2 Damnations and 3 Carpets in my SB leaves me 10 slots to deal with GY based combo, Storm based combos, SnT decks (Sneak, Omni, EtI), and all the other miscellaneous unfair decks...
Tell me sincerely, how many games against Maverick, RUG, Team America, Zoo, Tribal, DnT... because you didn't have Damnation and/or Carpet?
How many games have you lost to combo because you didn't have enough hate?
My guess is that if you think the first one occurs enough to be significant compared to the second, you haven't played enough.
Why am I so obsessed with improving the matchup against other blue decks? Take a look at the top 5 Legacy decks. Having an insane card against the top 5 most popular decks of the format sounds pretty good.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post731464
Maybe it is you who has not played enough if you consider RUG a bye and Miracles/Blade a joke. RUG is favorable but no bye, especially for the blue version. They have two ways to win. Either their ridiculous double Stifle + flipped Delver + Daze and the last two hand cards FoW + blue card draw. Or punishing you if you have to keep a mediocre hand. In both cases Carpet does amazing work. It can beat even the most ridiculous draws of RUG (or at least draw the FoW on turn 1) and it can turn your bad draws into good ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Games against Stoneblade and Miracles are a hard fight on pretty even footing. At least in my experience. Nic Fit is not actually that much bigger than them. What "big" do we have? 3-4 Jaces (they too), a Thrun and a Titan. That is certainly not enough bigger than them to just sit back and Abrupt Decay their stuff while they create CA with Snapcasters, Stoneforge Mystics or shape their hand with Sensei's Top.
The player who gets ahead usually wins and Carpet does just that. It fuels your GSZ's to have a Titan instead of a Witness, it lets you have a Jace before they do and it makes your Witnesses insane.
I am pretty sure nothing but Decay resolves against those double daze/delver/fow/stifle and whatever else god hand they get, not even carpet. This is why RUG and BUG tempo decks are top tier decks.
I will admit that saying RUG is a bye was an exaggeration, but I assumed it was understood that beating RUG didn't require any help from the SB. IMO, Nic Fit has one of the best matchups against RUG.
What is so "Big" that we have against stoneblade and miracles? Considering that there are 8 cards that allow us to see their hand and potentially rip it apart, that we can play around soft counters like Spell Pierce, that Spell Snare is irrelevant, that Counterbalance is mediocre against 4 Deeds, 4 Decays, and such a plastic curve, that we have 8 hard counters post-board, that GSZ immediately converts into the best card in our GY or the best creature we can afford for the current state of the game, that we have a nearly unstoppable attrition engine... These matchups boil down to Jace wars, except that we have a good chance of fighting through a Jace while they have none.
Oh ya, Snapcaster doesn't generate card advantage when a 2/1 body doesn't cost you a card to deal with. Card advantage is only relevant when every card you own is worth as much as your opponent's.
If you think I haven't played enough, consider this:
-I have been playing Magic for 11 years, and Legacy exclusively for 6 years
-I have been developing Nic Fit for over 2 years
-I play a different deck roughly every month, therefore
-I have piloted every deck you mentioned above, and even contributed to some (Stoneblade being an important one)
-I have participated in over 100 sanctioned events (probably closer to 200-300 but who counts at that point...)
I have some experience in this format, too, and found it surprising that it got doubted.
Anyway, I think you underestimate Stoneblade and Miracles severely by overestimating your own cards and not respecting theirs.
Stoneblade deck have their own Discard spells, they have multiple ways of creating card advantage that require completely different answers like Lingering Souls, Dark Confidant, Notion thief, Clique/Karakas or additional Planeswalkers so you can't just sit back and hope to have the right answer, wait to be able to pay for Spell Pierce (no one plays Spell Snare) and then trump them with Titan. And with Geist or Clique + Snapcaster they can very well fight through our Jace, too. This matchup is not one-sided in our favor, at all.
While I don't especially know anything about, or indeed care about, the intricacies of this particular version of blue Nic Fit, I find the tone of the discussion quarrelsome and the lack of respect shocking. You two have both been in this thread since the very beginning [Tao] and shortly thereafter [Qweerios]. We've always managed to have a civil discourse before, even when completely and utterly disagreeing on some facet of the deck's design. Comparing our e-peens serves to accomplish nothing other than to make our deck and our community look like tools -- if two of the players with the most history with the archetype are regarding themselves and each other in such a fashion, then how do you think that reflects on the deck?
By all means continue discussion and so on and so forth; but please keep it civil. There's no reason to tear into each other with such venom. We're all Nic Fitters here -- and it's basically us vs world. Well, maybe us + aggro loam + junk vs the world =)
Yeah, we don't want to look like a bunch of storm players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Amen. you are awesome Qweerios <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Fixed that for youQuote:
Originally Posted by Siiig
/barnQuote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Or however that goes.
On a different tangent, I'll be at GP Vegas. Make sure any of you crazy guys gonna be there hit me up!
So jelly. Are you going to be doing any legacy side events while you're there, you think? Or just focusing on the main event / signatures / any MM-related side events?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
EDZ: and yes, that's exactly how the /barn works. I'll make mafia players out of you all yet :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
It's nuts here. Don't be jelly.
If I scrub out of the main event chances are I'll hop in a legacy side event or two.
I am not doubting Tao's experience, I am sure he has plenty. What I posted earlier is that I think that:
You will not lose a significant portion of your aggro/tempo matches because you lack Damnation/Carpet in your SB.
You will lose a significant portion of your combo matches if you do not have at least 12-14 pieces of hate against them.
Thinking otherwise as a Nic Fit player makes me doubt the quality of your experience.
I have no quarrels with Tao. I don't know what gave such impression, we are having a disagreement. From the beginning of this threat Tao has been the one I have been most in agreement with. I may be a little overzealous when I believe that we are arguing over something fundamental, and yet, it appears to be misunderstood.
Nic Fit had success when the meta was Maverick/RUG-heavy and very combo-light. It dedicated almost all of its SB to combo decks even though combo was quasi-extinct because those were the matchups that were troublesome. Nic Fit is a metagame deck built with a premise, that you will win against the fair field because we play the best removal, the best threats, and the most ridiculous attrition. Nic Fit is not as well-balanced as most of its contributors think it is.
Nic Fit is completely naked when it comes to combo. My last 2 rounds this week were against combo decks and I played 4 Stifle, 4 Daze, 4 Fow, 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder, 2 Pierce, and sided an additional 2 Pierce, 2 Dimir Charm, 2 Surgical.... I still lost 1-2 to T.E.S. and Sneak Show.
Also, let's not put Esperblade(SFM, Jace, Souls, Counterspells) and Deathblade(SFM, Bob, Jace, Deathrite, Discard) in the same basket. Esperblade is more reactive and has much heavier disruption and a slower clock that relies on a couple of cards. They are more likely to try and Jace you out with counter backup. Deathblade is more proactive, has a very low blue count and uses a fish approach with a lot of CA. They have more small annoyances that have to be dealt with and much less disruption. They will use their Jace for CA and take a much bigger hit from Deed.
@Gitaxian Probe: Clear 4-off. Best thing ever and I feel stupid for not getting it earlier. Turning the first Therapy into a Thoughtseize is amazing, it feels like it improved every matchup by 5% lol.
@Damnation: The main problem is that your list had only fringe solutions that rarely work against Tombstalker and against Mother/Revoker. I used to split Deed/Damnation, maybe that could be the way, too. Either way, in the MD or the SB, I think at least a few solutions for these cards are necessary (Tombstalker more than Mother/Revoker).
Maybe something like 3 Deed, 3 Decay, 1 Pulse, 1 Damnation could work for the main deck and that would give you 2 more SB slots.
@Carpet:
Carpet is a unique card because it is a) extremely good and b) extremely likely to get sided in. If you play a 7 round tournament you will probably side this in about 4 times in average. And it will be the card that you want most in your opening hand every time. There is no other card that does that, not even close.
I know that the Combo matchup needs a lot of help from the SB but this is not about strictly following the goal of improving the Combo matchup as much as possible. Even if the matchups Carpet improves are favorable, they are not favorable enough to throw away such a unique chance to improve them all.
Damnation works fine when Deed won't cut it. Deed is superior in almost every cases. Go ahead and split Deed with Damnation if you please, there is nothing wrong with that. I chose to deal with Tombstalker/Iona with Jace and Selkie Hedge-Mage. While it is true that Deed can be Revoked and Stifled, Damnation can be Teeged and wipes your side of the board as well. In short, they both have their pros and cons, however, I wouldn't touch Decay or meddle with Pulse. The latter is a thing of the past.
Carpet is great, no doubt about it. Carpet isn't good against any combo deck out there so its not worth the SB space. Look at the amount of cards in the main that are completely dead against fair decks, then look at the amount of cards in the main that are completely dead against combo.
-4 Deed, -4 Decay, -3 Explorers, -1 Thrun, -1 Thragtusk, -1 Prime Titan against most combo decks out there right off the bat. Jace isn't that great either but at least hes blue and digs for additional answers.
- if you split your removal it will be less likely to end up with two Deeds in hand against a Tombstalker and impossible to end up with 2 Damnations against Teeg. It will usually be better to draw 1 Damnation, 1 Deed than to draw 2 Deed.
- "Carpet isn't good against any combo deck out there so its not worth the SB space."
If your exclusive goal is to be as good against Combo post board as possible that is true. If you want to optimize your deck to win tournaments it is not. You can still beat Combo with 12 SB cards, you can still lose to Combo even with 15 SB cards. You are still favored against RUG without Carpets, you can still lose to RUG even with Carpets.