[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by plowshares

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious. :cool:

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D&T and Miracles are enjoying more and more popularity these days, Meddling Mage has remained an issue in any UWx deck, and DRS is a mainstay in many midrange and aggro decks. It's not as though this format isn't filled with permanent based hate and hate for the graveyard. It's really irksome to see people say "ANT is better" when the argument boils down to "I'm ignoring reasons why ANT would have difficulties". It came up a few times already, but even with cards in common, TES and ANT are distinctly different because of cards like Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame that move the fundamental turn forward, even if the mechanics of that fundamental turn are more and more similar to ANT these days. You trade stability for speed, Wasteland and Tax-counters will hit you harder in TES, but you can blaze ahead of hate-bears and GY-hate that would hinder ANT. It's a trade-off, and the people who just ignore half or all of the trade-off really aren't helping to advance the discussion.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

D&T and Miracles are enjoying more and more popularity these days, Meddling Mage has remained an issue in any UWx deck, and DRS is a mainstay in many midrange and aggro decks. It's not as though this format isn't filled with permanent based hate and hate for the graveyard. It's really irksome to see people say "ANT is better" when the argument boils down to "I'm ignoring reasons why ANT would have difficulties". It came up a few times already, but even with cards in common, TES and ANT are distinctly different because of cards like Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame that move the fundamental turn forward, even if the mechanics of that fundamental turn are more and more similar to ANT these days. You trade stability for speed, Wasteland and Tax-counters will hit you harder in TES, but you can blaze ahead of hate-bears and GY-hate that would hinder ANT. It's a trade-off, and the people who just ignore half or all of the trade-off really aren't helping to advance the discussion.

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I never ignored reasons why ANT could struggle, in fact I did the exact opposite and listed several factors that could cripple ANT (graveyard and permanent based hate). I also never said that "ANT is just better"; I said that ANT is going to be more successful in our current metagame (which is wasteland/tax-counter based). I also wonder, at what point does TES become so much like an ANT deck with bad mana that we should just play ANT? The new TES lists seem to be abandoning the things that made it TES in the first place, silence and a plethora of 5 color lands. It seems that the new TES is just an ANT deck that loses to wasteland.

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Originally Posted by plowshares

Personally, I enjoy playing both ANT and TES, but I think that ANT is better suited to the current metagame filled with daze/wasteland based tempo decks. If we go back to a format filled with permanent based/graveyard hate, then TES would be in a better position. One Thing I have noticed is that the most recent lists Bryant posts on the OP look more and more like ANT decks with burning wish. That does seem curious. :cool:

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If that is suprising for you, I recommend reading through the last 10 or so pages where the switches are explained. The decks are still about 4 playsets away from each other which is nearly the same gap as RUG Delver and Patriot have. Just saying...

Edit: Dug out the post!

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

On the draw this means you HAVE to go off turn one. With protection, if you want to battle Force.
What are the odds of drawing such a hand with the current TES list? Below 10% I'd say.

On the play you have a turn more, which you typically use to cantrip into a better hand.
But what are your chances of drawing a turn two kill with discard protection? Are they over 50%? I'm not sure.
And let's not forget that when we go for it turn 2, we are also weak to Pierce / Fluster.
So the question is: what are you willing to gamble on? I usually draw hands WAY too weak to count on stuff like this.


@Pat: Ad Nauseam is a LOT better in TES than in ANT, because you can easily cast it with nothing floating. Also Rite is much faster than Cabal Ritual, so your argument that Ad Nauseam in ANT is just as fast as in TES is incorrect, I'm affraid.

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Lets not forget that we have the same amount of discard main AND a full set of Wishes to grab the sideboard-discard. It's completely legit to discard Hymn first in case you can't go off and burn a second discard or Wish for the FoW.

The was I see it, you have 2 additional advantages with TES:
1) Having the option to race 2cc/3cc hate
2) running an additional virtual playset of discard in form of Burning Wishes

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Originally Posted by plowshares

I never ignored reasons why ANT could struggle, in fact I did the exact opposite and listed several factors that could cripple ANT (graveyard and permanent based hate). I also never said that "ANT is just better"; I said that ANT is going to be more successful in our current metagame (which is wasteland/tax-counter based). I also wonder, at what point does TES become so much like an ANT deck with bad mana that we should just play ANT? The new TES lists seem to be abandoning the things that made it TES in the first place, silence and a plethora of 5 color lands. It seems that the new TES is just an ANT deck that loses to wasteland.

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you're acting like the factors that hinder ANT arent prevalent though, when you say "if we go back" to a format with such hate cards. we never left, we're in one now, look at the results miracles, BUG, and D/T put up. implying those cards arent prevalent IS ignoring the factors that hinder ANT. and in a competitive context, saying something is more successful in the metagame is like saying its better, we're here to make these decks successful, after all. further, it's not as those TES auto-folds to Wasteland, it just has a harder time with it. ANT's 2 basics only take it so far, and you pay in operational speed for the ability to run them, especially if you choose to run 3.

Death & Taxes isn't getting more and more popular. It's actually going down in popularity right now.
If D&T would be one of the top tier decks, I'd take TES over ANT any day.

@Lem: Yes if Wish and the speed were the only factors I'd take TES as well.
But the Wastelands take out our lands, so Wishing for protection gets harder.
ANT has the more stable mana base (fetch and basics) and more cantrips to find what you need.
And ANT can make them discard Hymn just as easily as TES, so that argument is somewhat flawed. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Death & Taxes isn't getting more and more popular. It's actually going down in popularity right now.
If D&T would be one of the top tier decks, I'd take TES over ANT any day.

@Lem: Yes if Wish and the speed were the only factors I'd take TES as well.
But the Wastelands take out our lands, so Wishing for protection gets harder.
ANT has the more stable mana base (fetch and basics) and more cantrips to find what you need.
And ANT can make them discard Hymn just as easily as TES, so that argument is somewhat flawed. :wink:

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If you auto-lose to wasteland in TES, you might be doing it wrong.


Do we really need to be debating over who's weiner is bigger?

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

you're acting like the factors that hinder ANT arent prevalent though, when you say "if we go back" to a format with such hate cards. we never left, we're in one now, look at the results miracles, BUG, and D/T put up. implying those cards arent prevalent IS ignoring the factors that hinder ANT. and in a competitive context, saying something is more successful in the metagame is like saying its better, we're here to make these decks successful, after all. further, it's not as those TES auto-folds to Wasteland, it just has a harder time with it. ANT's 2 basics only take it so far, and you pay in operational speed for the ability to run them, especially if you choose to run 3.

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We have been in a wasteland/taxing-counter tempo metagame for a long time now. Delver has been winning what seems to be every event lately. You use BUG as an example of a deck that uses permanent hate, but it is the perfect example of a deck that uses a wasteland/taxing-counter disruption package (with a bit of hand disruption added in). You also mention death and taxes, but when is the last time that deck won anything (I think it was about 6 months ago). Miracles, I will give you, but that matchup is rough as ANT or TES so that point seems moot.

As for wasteland, why would you choose to play a deck that loses to it at all. You say that ANT is only slightly better than TES against wasteland (which I disagree with), but why would you give up those percentage points to a card that defines the format.

Because of what you gain in other areas, obviously. Why do you play one deck over another? One configuration over another? Because they offer advantages in ways that you feel comfortable with.

"As for wasteland, why would you choose to play a deck that loses to it at all."

Why does anyone play any deck ever then? Most decks aren't well equipped to deal with well timed wastelands, the best you can do is minimize it, and part of minimizing it is through construction and understanding that it's possible just on speed alone to make wasteland irrelevant. I think you're overvaluing the impact of wasteland (as evidence from that cherry picked quote where you say pretty much exactly what your position is).

This discussion has gone down to a level so low I hardly feel like responding anymore.
I never said TES loses to Wasteland. And those who think it does are idiots.

What is true, is that TES is more vulnerable to Wasteland than ANT.
So many Wastelands in the meta means ANT could have a slight edge compared to TES.

And I don't see why TES vs. ANT is a non-discussion at all. TES and ANT are pretty similar. TES has evolved to something a bit more ANTish and ANT has evolved into something a bit more TESsy. Still, the differences are there, and the question which would be a bit better in the current meta is a very valid question, that can be posed in either thread.

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...yx-Spoiler.jpg

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Originally Posted by zangoasyl

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...yx-Spoiler.jpg

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So what? Thalia and Eathersworn Canonist exist. A Rule of Law with 1 power donesn't matter

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Provide a link. Because up until a few months ago when we started playing Pyroblast I was running a non-japanese foil Swarm in my sideboard.

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Not that I want to participate in that discussion, but you actually did wrote something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...orchester.html

Still, fact is that some people are trying to compare to decks which both win with ToA, but have less in common otherwise. Also each deck has it's own way to adapt to the everchanging meta. So why comparing ANT to TES?

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Originally Posted by NoizeMe

Still, fact is that some people are trying to compare to decks which both win with ToA, but have less in common otherwise. Also each deck has it's own way to adapt to the everchanging meta. So why comparing ANT to TES?

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As we run the same core of cards there is the desire to look at each other to find inspiration to tackle new problems and changing metagames, which is absolutely fair. Starting a discussion with a borderline insult to everyone, just because of possibly knowing 1-2 very special, local guys with a strange POV in regards to deckbuilding is not, as it is no way near an "open-minded" discussion to nearly ignore metagame challenges like RIP, Hatebears and discard, but act as if Spell Pierce and RUG Delver are the defining factors and not Thoughtseize/Hymn/Counterbalance+FoW in a field cleary dominated by Team America (which also runs DRS!) and Miracles (yeah I know how to outplay CB+Top with cantrips and Cabal Ritual, in case this pops up)


Edit:

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Originally Posted by NoizeMe

Not that I want to participate in that discussion, but you actually did wrote something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...orchester.html

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Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

New hatebear

1W
Egid~something of the gods.
Cresture enchantment - human soldier

You have hewproof.


2/1

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Aegis of the Gods - 1W

Human Soldier

You have hexproof

2/1

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http://www.moxes.com/images/articles...s_-_global.jpg

Ok, density of storm-hatebears in this set gets ridiculous

They just hate us :cry:

And storm like sneak atack is right now not well positioned in the meta.

Dread of night kills them every day that pases more.

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Originally Posted by Togores

They just hate us :cry:

And storm like sneak atack is right now not well positioned in the meta.

Dread of night kills them every day that pases more.

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SneakShow is as good as ever due to being a basic combo mechanic of "resolve a single spell"

I dont want to go into the off topic.
But sneak is good cause it destroys everything. But last friday I played. And went 2-3 (wich is my worst results in months) cause une rug with 4 reb for tnn and 2 blue blast. Destroyed me.
And the pairing vs bug delver is hard as fuck. Wastalant. Hymn. Seize. Counters. Pressure an liliana on top of that.

True Believer does not get killed by a single Dread of Night. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

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This. Not to mention, I even wrote that the Cabal Therapy ended up being a better choice for the event because of the way things played out.

As for the storm bears in this set, I don't think any of them are better than anything else that has been printed in previous sets. We'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

As we run the same core of cards there is the desire to look at each other to find inspiration to tackle new problems and changing metagames, which is absolutely fair. Starting a discussion with a borderline insult to everyone, just because of possibly knowing 1-2 very special, local guys with a strange POV in regards to deckbuilding is not, as it is no way near an "open-minded" discussion to nearly ignore metagame challenges like RIP, Hatebears and discard, but act as if Spell Pierce and RUG Delver are the defining factors and not Thoughtseize/Hymn/Counterbalance+FoW in a field cleary dominated by Team America (which also runs DRS!) and Miracles (yeah I know how to outplay CB+Top with cantrips and Cabal Ritual, in case this pops up)

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We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

This. Not to mention, I even wrote that the Cabal Therapy ended up being a better choice for the event because of the way things played out.

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Personally I do think this was a joke, but since Patrunkenphat7 brought that one up and Bryant seemed to not know what he was referring to, I posted the link.
I did not intend to make any kind of statement with this.

My comment on the new canonist:

Fortunately it costs 3.
Unfortunately it is massacre-proof

However with the printing of the white dudes It's time to increase the massacre count in te sb, i played 1 in the side during BoM in november and it was great so far.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

I think that the new True Believer may see some play simply because it isn't double white whick helps out things like Maverick, Deadguy, and whatever else that may want this effect. 3 mana Canonist is not only slower, but costs more. Card is bad. But yeah if I were to play TES I'd probably be on at least 1 Massacre in the board atm.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I think that the new True Believer may see some play simply because it isn't double white whick helps out things like Maverick, Deadguy, and whatever else that may want this effect. 3 mana Canonist is not only slower, but costs more. Card is bad. But yeah if I were to play TES I'd probably be on at least 1 Massacre in the board atm.

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Now with more fetches I can see this being desired at some point in the future

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Now with more fetches I can see this being desired at some point in the future

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Right. I mean I guess not having access to basic swamp kinda sucks, but you have more access to USeas fwiw. I think it is a strong enough card in a meta full of thalia, meddling mage, canonists and other shit. Unfortunately Teeg is still kind of an issue. I mean it doesnt slow you down, but it's still annoying.

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Originally Posted by NoizeMe

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.



Personally I do think this was a joke, but since Patrunkenphat7 brought that one up and Bryant seemed to not know what he was referring to, I posted the link.
I did not intend to make any kind of statement with this.

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Bryant thinks ANT and TES are very similar. Here is a quote from the article you just linked:

"This doesn't seem too different from Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT), am I right?

Truth be hold, it's really not.

Both decks are pretty similar."

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks, because I want to play the best deck in the metagame. I don't care which deck that is. People can feel free to disagree with my analysis of the decks, but why is this subject taboo? People flip out when this comes up. In my opinion, it is one of the most useful discussions we can have in a Legacy Storm forum.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks ... the best deck in the metagame ...

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As I see it, regardless of countless hair splitting the differences between them, it all boils down to the pilot's decision in handling certain situation.

cheers ^_^

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Bryant thinks ANT and TES are very similar. Here is a quote from the article you just linked:

"This doesn't seem too different from Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT), am I right?

Truth be hold, it's really not.

Both decks are pretty similar."

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks, because I want to play the best deck in the metagame. I don't care which deck that is. People can feel free to disagree with my analysis of the decks, but why is this subject taboo? People flip out when this comes up. In my opinion, it is one of the most useful discussions we can have in a Legacy Storm forum.

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Yes, they're similar in the same that BUG Delver and RUG Delver are related. They share the same fundamental game plan and strategy as they're both tempo decks, hold on. I'm going to check those threads to see if they're also acting like children - I'll be right back.

EDIT: Nope.

EDIT 2: The reason people have an issue is the way you went about it. If you wanted to address the question it should've been done in the Format & Article Discussion section - not the TES thread. We had a discussion going that you halted because of your opinions.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Yes, they're similar in the same that BUG Delver and RUG Delver are related. They share the same fundamental game plan and strategy as they're both tempo decks, hold on. I'm going to check those threads to see if they're also acting like children - I'll be right back.

EDIT: Nope.

EDIT 2: The reason people have an issue is the way you went about it. If you wanted to address the question it should've been done in the Format & Article Discussion section - not the TES thread. We had a discussion going that you halted because of your opinions.

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There's actually been some solid back and forth discussion on this from quite a few people besides me over the last few days. I know that I rub you the wrong way for some reason, and I am not sure why you are being so abrasive, but it would be great if you could keep the sarcastic remarks to a minimum. The personal message attacks were enough. Let's get on track with the Magic discussion.

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Originally Posted by NoizeMe

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.

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I just added my post to yours as we were chopping in the same notch, not to disagree or correct you :)

The range of 3-4 different playsets within a single mainboard creates quite a gap in Legacy like you can call Team America, RUG and Patriot all twins of the tempo archetype as they are just differing by Hymn vs. Stifle, the creatures and the land-colors. The discussion here reminds me of the one being held in regards to RUG and Team America as RUG players just ignored TNN as a problem to justify still running Tarmogoyfs

Well,because everyone here is discussing the difference between Ant and TEs and their strengths:

Las week i joined a legacy tournament with 80 participants and piloted a unusual Ant build to a 5:1:1

Deck: "the machine gun"by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:46
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam

Lands:14
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre


The Decklist is my own brew for this tournament which is Ant with more speed (2 Ad Nauseam,2 Chrome Mox)
And the Deck was insane.
So building hybrids between Tes and Ant could be also a way if you are seeking the best deck for your playstyle.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Well,because everyone here is discussing the difference between Ant and TEs and their strengths:

Las week i joined a legacy tournament with 80 participants and piloted a unusual Ant build to a 5:1:1

Deck: "the machine gun"by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:46
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam

Lands:14
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre


The Decklist is my own brew for this tournament which is Ant with more speed (2 Ad Nauseam,2 Chrome Mox)
And the Deck was insane.
So building hybrids between Tes and Ant could be also a way if you are seeking the best deck for your playstyle.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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You seem to have made ad nasuem really really bad in this deck. Once you start flipping you have will still have a 5 (ad nas) and 2 4's (past in flames and tendrils) you also lose empty the warrens which I don't know if I like. I don't know much about A.N.T. But are their as nas that bad?

Other then that it looks fine

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Originally Posted by trollking21

You seem to have made ad nasuem really really bad in this deck. Once you start flipping you have will still have a 5 (ad nas) and 2 4's (past in flames and tendrils) you also lose empty the warrens which I don't know if I like. I don't know much about A.N.T. But are their as nas that bad?

Other then that it looks fine

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Before Gitaxian Probe was printed everyone (both TES and ANT) was playing 2 Ad Nauseam main. Sure it's a pain when you flip the other one, but the increased odds of having the card in hand are actually quite nice. So in a list without Gitaxian Probes, it's fine. I wouldn't want to play with only 5 protection spells though.

Also, why are we discussing an ANT list in the TES thread?

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Originally Posted by bennotsi

Before Gitaxian Probe was printed everyone (both TES and ANT) was playing 2 Ad Nauseam main. Sure it's a pain when you flip the other one, but the increased odds of having the card in hand are actually quite nice. So in a list without Gitaxian Probes, it's fine. I wouldn't want to play with only 5 protection spells though.

Also, why are we discussing an ANT list in the TES thread?

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4 (duress) +2 (cabal therapy) +1 (thoughtseize) =5 ?:really:

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Originally Posted by DarkJester

4 (duress) +2 (cabal therapy) +1 (thoughtseize) =5 ?:really:

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Ah I miscounted. I guess I tried to answer the question of "how on earth has he found space for all that?" too quickly. First I thought he must not be playing Gitaxian Probe, then I thought it was because of fewer protection spells. Now I see that it's because of fewer cantrips. It's an interesting list that's for sure. I would be afraid of not being able to find business with that count of cantrips and business spells, but maybe I just need to tryout the list myself.

I don't see the appeal of Young Pyromancer in a deck that runs a shitload on artifacts and Rituals which you don't want to burn for 1/1 elementals. If i woild be in the mood for nicpicking, I would ask there the so-called "resiliency against discard" of ANT is hidden lol. Fact is that this list still has to get hands on 2 initial mana post Ad Nauseam (or IMS + DR) to turn on the Cabal Rituals and still needs to flip, IT, PIF or ToA to win on a reliable base. I don't like Ad Nauseam in ANT and increasing the number of +4cc flips without increasing the quantity of value-cards to reveal to AN isn't THAT hot. AN is a draw7 for attrition wars in here. My 0.02$

P.S.: Kai, this is still the TES thread.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't see the appeal of Young Pyromancer in a deck that runs a shitload on artifacts and Rituals which you don't want to burn for 1/1 elementals. If i woild be in the mood for nicpicking, I would ask there the so-called "resiliency against discard" of ANT is hidden lol. Fact is that this list still has to get hands on 2 initial mana post Ad Nauseam (or IMS + DR) to turn on the Cabal Rituals and still needs to flip, IT, PIF or ToA to win on a reliable base. I don't like Ad Nauseam in ANT and increasing the number of +4cc flips without increasing the quantity of value-cards to reveal to AN isn't THAT hot. AN is a draw7 for attrition wars in here. My 0.02$

P.S.: Kai, this is still the TES thread.

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If we do away with AN in ANT, wouldn't it then become PiFT?

Also, isn't the only other major difference between ANT and TES the fact that TES has the ability to win with <10 storm?

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Originally Posted by d0nkey

If we do away with AN in ANT, wouldn't it then become PiFT?

Also, isn't the only other major difference between ANT and TES the fact that TES has the ability to win with <10 storm?

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The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

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You can also win with less than 10 Storm in ANT if you play Empty like I've been playing for a while in that deck.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

You can also win with less than 10 Storm in ANT if you play Empty like I've been playing for a while in that deck.

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Part of the issue arguing ANT vs TES is that TES has an agreed consensus amongst most of the players on it's main deck where ANT does not. Your argument is much easier to make when the contents of what you're defending aren't available or exact.