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Thanks for the reply Pascal and for posting your list. Also, congrats on your success! I thought 3 was different because you'd likely want to have it earlier in the game so 4 seems better and I've only seen them in sideboard. I guess it's hard to make cuts. Seems like you've opted to be light on business game 1 and rather disruptive. Not sure if it's more typical to reduce discard with the inclusion of Daze? I have never played it.
well the difference to have 1 copy in the starting hand between 3 and 4 is only 5,5% :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
@scottW
Thanks!
Nah cutting discard seems very bad..i think you don't want 4 because topdecking them is very bad. Even in the Sideboard they are just bader. If you don't draw them you can play just the classic lists..I play a classic lists with 2 Pif like Togores.
i cut:
-1 top
-1 preordain
-1 Rain of filith
-1 Pif (For empty)
Do any of you guys think your Duress should just be Thoughtseize? As long as Ad Nauseam either isn't your main storm engine or in your MD, I think you're just losing games to letting Thalia resolve when life isn't a significant factor? I mean if you're playing Daze, which isn't synergistic with the deck, I think you need to revaluate your base disruption to better deal with D&T and Maverick (T2 Prelates are GG).
Nahh TS is fine in the non blue match ups but very bad in other match ups.. i dont like the lifeloss..
But in the correct meta it could be fine.
I think it's just a matter of taste. I consider myself quite proficient at beating Death and Taxes with ANT (5-1 in my local league) and I never considered or wanted thoughtseize in my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
In fact, Ad Nauseam - while being our worst engine card - is quite good at pushing for T1-T2 kills, and that's exactly where you need to be at if you want to win G1 against Death and Taxes.
D&T has both no instant answers to our combo and a poor first turn (land->vial or land->mom), so you gotta exploit that.
Alternatively, you can max out your therapies (4/3 or 4/2 split with duress) and try to cast a therapy early in the game and name Thalia GT, hoping you can win before they draw something else to stop your combo with.
That's how you should win G1 with a traditional ANT list: in a known meta, mull aggressively into CT or burst combo. I don't think there's any need for Thoughtseize, also because there are many other challenging decks in the metagame, and those two lifepoints really matter against many of 'em.
Personally, g2-3 I always board 3 dread of night and 1 massacre (sometimes i also consider Chain of Vapor and some, but not all, copies of abrupt decay) and I go hard mull until I see either one of those 4 cards or T1-2 kill. I get an early dread online, stop their Thalias and Mothers and Flickerwisps, and that generally buys me enough time to find another copy (de facto locking them out of the game) or to find the combo.
I haven't played Daze in Storm yet but it seems like your business count is very low. Even if you feel like 4 IT are enought, playing only 1 Toa (+1 EtW) and 1 PifPaf alongside Pampam (AdN) sounds pretty thin. In addition, you have less cantrips/manipulation than other lists. I am exaggerating on purpose here but to me it appears that the addition of Daze draws this deck closer to a TinFins style approach, where you want to see one of your 4 main business spells in the starting 7 and go from there. I played 2 Daze in TinFins at some tournaments and while it had some blow-out potential like countering a CB or simply protecting Drit or Entomb, it was quite a miserable draw after turn 2. In the end, I switched it for other business options like LDV or Buried Alive (TinFin's Grim Tutor).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
@Cabal Therapy
Like i said normally i dont like empty main and with my classic list i prefer to play 2 Pif.
I dont know if empty main is needed.I think you can play it in the Sideboard. If i do that i would play a second pif again.
And it's definitly not a Tin Fins Deck with daze.. the decks are still very diffrent;) i mean you just play 3 different cards.
That doesnt change alot. It just allows you to play some other plays.
was thinking exactly the same.
I really like the idea of daze in the board vs heavy Eldrazi and DnT metas. Maybe even main. Cutting all the business and even all Preordains and tops is certainly not the way to go though. You'r basically left with 1 pif and 1 AN? and only running 1 tendrils? Sorry but no way this can be consistent anymore.
That being said its kinda rough for me to figure out the correct number of business spells. I like the Scherer version with 2 dark petition just as much as the multiple PiF versions.
Though with Miracles, DnT and Eldrazi obviously being the most dominent decks right now there is certainly a correct way to arrange the business spells in this deck.
The problem with 2 Pif and no petition is IMO that pif doesnt really accelerate your win. Whatever you have in hand you always need that tendrils or that Tutor IN ADDITION to the pif.
With petitions in your main you can just have lots of mana and petition into the route thats most save for the win.
With Pif and lots of mana.... you cannot accomplish anything. still need to find the tendrils or Tutor. this is actually whats annoying me and what makes me most curious bout those grindy versions. How do you win with these slow versions vs dnt and eldrazis? :P
(btw, long time lurker. finally made an account =P)
Well the classic played always 4 IT 1 Tendrils 1 Pif and 1 AD..also just empty for the second pif don't change the consistents..
I mean Top is anyway slow and not a real cantrip...Rain of filth have nothing to do with consistence either. The only thing i cute down was the Preordain but this is just 1 Cantrip..
Cutting discard is the badest thing you can do in a Storm deck! you want always at least 6 discard spells i think!
Also i don't like Scherer's List.. I think petition is not the way you go. Also his Sideboard seems very bad..All in is not the way to go with Ant..Just playing more Dark petition don't say you are faster...
Just wasting 5 slots in the sideboard with chrome moxes and 2 lands seems very bad. But yeah it's my opinion.
Also just the 3 Daze are just a test. In my meta they are very nice.
I always played 2 pifs since after GP Strasbourg 2013 and now i would do that again if i'm not on the daze Plan ;)
Togores is the way you go:)
Hmm.. that didnt really answer the question regarding PiF but I see.
6 Busines spells (4 IT, 1 Pif , 1AN) IS undeniably on the very low end for sure. Especially if you only run 1 Tendrils. If you run multiple PiF I think you are obligated to run also more Storm cards. Isnt that also the "classic" knowledge? =)
edit: Just stating Scherers list is bad doesnt really help to evaluate the power level of his list I think. I mean he is constantly in the tops of SCG tornaments with ver constant performances. why is this bad?
Who has ever done well with 3 Daze?:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
there you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
4 sb:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21259&iddeck=162788
3 maindeck:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21210&iddeck=162385
Pif is also a bussines spell and acelerates your win.
I think petition is worser and slower than pif.
Pettition depends on having 5 mana, and does nothing with led or with a cabal without *****.
pif gives you:
pif+it+ritual+led = search cabal = win
pif + ritual + led + toa = win
pif + 2 ritual + infernal = win
pif + 2 ritual + led + 1 red mana + 3 cantrips = win
and the 1st line on top I do kill a lot of ppl t1 and mostly 2 quite good. while this line there gives you usualy ***** by itself changing pif for pettion does nothing.
I really thing that players who like petition just dont really know how to cantrip properly. Its quite easy with this setup to find by turn 2-3 a goldfish line at a high rate.
We are a t2-3 kill deck, not a t1-2 kill deck like tes.
Also we are build to be able to play long games thanks to pif, and cabal ritual. Just dont hessitate to get to play them. Dont rush if you dont need to.
Also on the taxes + seize thing. you dont need it. Them (not knowing what you play) will have t2 thalia g1 much less times than you headshot them. Also if your meta is not full of taxes you dont need to play speciific hate.
Chain is better than echoing here.
But I usualy count on playing 1 time each event against taxes and I always win by having 0 cards for them in my sb. To win g1 against someon ewho knows your on storm you usualy need to be on the play. But g2-3 dosnt really matter.
Thanks for the inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Can you elaborate on that one pls? =)
All the other scenarios you described I did mention already. You need Tutor OR Tendrils together with pif. The 3 cantrip scenario is actually something I want to know more about.
Also with 2 pif and no additional tutor you certainly should run more storm spells in your main, right?
Why you have to run more?
Also back on 2013 the list where just 4 tutor 1 pif 1 nauseam 1 tendrills 3 preordain. Not more needed. I usualy g2 go down 1 pif most of the time as bussines spell. Now I play 1 more but just because It goes better with other plant and kind of plays wich go well with the sb I play.
Usualy when you have like 5-6 black + red + led and 3 cantrips (all brainstorm without shuffle count as 1 cantrip) you get to draw 3 cards. And with the usual gitaxian + ponder + brainstorm you end seeing 8 cards at least wich usualy is enought to find nauseam, tutor or tendrills and that not counting in combinations of having more blue mana and finding more cantrips or having uncracked fetches.
So having 2 pif dosnt make you deck slower. It makes your deck more resitant to counters and discard and more or less as fast as S-H-I-T-T pettition (I really hate that card in ant ;)
You make U with LED and find business. Not guaranteed but pretty likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterheart
Edit: I'm too late.
I think most of the double PIF lists run double Tendrils?
As an aside, I don't get the point of MDing Ad Nauseam for T2 wins over Empty the Warrens for T1 wins, isn't Ad Nauseam just a card you bring in for the control match up to counter graveyard hate?
Well togores said everything i have to say;)
the Daze train... should dig up the reaction when it was first presented...
It's not - see Rodrigos listQuote:
Originally Posted by Winterheart
The list is quite powerful, better said consistent, in fact I was amazed how consistent it is in goldfish... but A, gameplay isn't goldfish (ok it is for some) B, maybe he is just an amazing player, although none of his few camera showings presented a memorable gameplay, maybe we are wrong, I was always wondering how does he do that (since when he started to pop up on SCG) especially now when he has to be notorious for his deck
I consider, Ponder-> GP -> BS a fair shot over Ad Nauseam in a majority of spots in my listQuote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
no, most copy Rodrigos list 2 is unusualQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
@thoughtseize - yes i do play it don't mind the lifeloss in exhange for improved utility
You can play double tendrills but then your deck is full of nauseam damage cards. Usualy the 2 pif 2 toa list dont run nauseam. I tested this aproach and every time I was facing a delver player DRS I hard a a really hard time winning the game. Thats the reason I play nauseam. Just as the fast oop I win card. I dont like empty, its slow, can be raced and Somehow my opp always gets to draw a sweeper. Empty is like a card that you play and pray that your opp does nothing the next 2 turn. Really hate it, for me its a good evil in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
while its true that more Tendrils mean potentially more dmg from Ad Nauseam, you also need less cards to find a kill in the resolved nauseam (which actually means LESS dmg). All you need is some mana and one of the tendrils. Not to mention all the other possibilities with with LED etc. But those possibilities do have all the variants.
not saying its correct to run more tendrils main, just saying that the argument that Ad nauseam kills you earlier because of it is certainly not very valid.
While thats true 100% that you dont have to dig for led + ritual + infernal pr other combinations its also quite bad when you have a lot of 4 cmc cards that you can reveal 2 at the ~5 first cards and then just die. Because you cant dig deeper for rituals. This happened to me at the top 8 of the bom madrid when I played a nauseam at 13-15 life and in the 3 top cards where 2 pif. And also a decay.
Playing 4 tendrills would make your nauseam better right? But you have to count that flipping the 2nd is like not being able to draw ~5 cards. Wich is huge.
Their is a point where too many big spells are too many. No doubt about it.
I just wanna raise the attention to the Scherer list again though. It plays 5 Big Spells. No problemo.
Yeah sure.
Also that should not be a problem. All storm lista are diferent. But most similar. While playing 2 islands and just 3 black lands are for me a waste. I do think that they also an be good. But I have seen Caleb get bottle neckted on black because of his mana base. Its not impossible.
There is no best list. Its just what you feel and how you wanna play out your games.
I feel like it's worth pointing out that there are a few major strengths to both Petition and Ad Nauseam, though I absolutely am cognizant of their weaknesses.
One big thing that people don't often notice about Petition is that it's absolutely the best piece of redundant business you can have if you're not facing countermagic. It also effectively functions as Infernal with an upside in those situations, because you aren't required to have a Lion's Eye to cast it while keeping cards in hand. Though it's the weakest business slot in the deck, it's also the most flexible if we can foot the bill. Still, all our tutors are weak to countermagic—Dark Petition being the weakest here—and it really hurts to flip Petition off of AdN.
The big thing that's kept me from cutting Ad Nauseam is that it's the go-to card when we need to find multiple things to go off. It's irksome to have to spend fast mana on a card that doesn't guarantee that we'll get there, but it's the only card in the deck that nets us multiple cards, and it nets quite a few. Problems abound if you hit a couple of pieces of business, but I've only had it fail really hard from 19-20 two or three times. Definitely a last resort card if we're lower than 17, though. Oftentimes when AdN kills me, I'm dead on the board anyway, so it's not appreciably worse than having, say, a cantrip, because the odds of finding what we need in 5+ cards are better than the odds of finding it in 2 or 3.
I'm with Winterheart re: the amount of business. I'd rather have higher odds of cratering off of Ad Nauseam than just not finding business. Doesn't happen that often, but it happens enough to write home about. Whether it's worth it to cut Petition completely for added Tendrils, I'm not sure, but I find that having redundant business happens less than having no business at all.
I am thinking about cutting back to four pieces of high-cost business, but I won't get the chance to test it until the weekend, and I don't know what I'd throw into the empty slot.
^this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
and also, a lot depends also on your local meta. I don't think everyone here is a pro that travels every month around the US/Europe to play big tournaments.....
Empty MD can be sometime better for example; I agree with Rodrigo that it's annoying since you don't win immediately, but only miracle has a sweeper solution G1 (tabernacle-deck are easly beatable with tendrils), furthermore I found that oppontens are better prepared against empty G2, also decks like grixis where usually empty is good (electrickery for example).
I like the line 4 IT/1 pif/1 tendril for this reason, I can choose how to win depending the opponent. I agree with everyone who dislikes petition.
imho EtW md is the worst finisher you just need it when you are quite sure to close the game with it (usually against decks who don't have sweepers)
about petition i run it for 2 month than i change with the second ToA and i would not change it. Toa still the best finisher in hand you just need to build your hand in the way to count to 9/10 and you take one slot from your sb since against miracle multiple ToA still the best way to defeat them :cool:
I've found the exact opposite to be true, my highest win % vs Miracles comes from Empty the Warrens racing Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by B88
This was a joke. I think Claudio won a GP with 3 Daze in his 75 (Miracles).Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterheart
I don't agree. Discard can be rather poor when your opponent top decks a CotV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Please do. I've spent a few too many hours reading the old ANT thread to subdue my overexcited thoughts of old tech (not that old ideas can't become better in a changed environment).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Also, "fair shot" = "not guaranteed but pretty likely." Not sure if you were agreeing or just expanding on how multiple cantrips can find a win as reliably as AdN.
P.S. I inadequately play your list... (Not the 75 but a close MD).
I'm sure you are generalizing Togores. Jonathan Alexander, I'm pretty sure you know how to cantrip and you include Petition in your 75. I'm interested to hear what you think of this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
I don't think he is. I even have to agree completely with his stance, that if you are unable to access either a single Tutor, an Ad Nauseam or a PIF in any generic ANT list in a reasonable time, your cantrip priorities are off. I see people cantripping for Rituals rather than business all the time and it makes me wanna flip tables when I hear "I didn't find a Tutor!" afterwards. The point is that Petitions are unnecessary and clunky every time you draw them in your starting grip in place of a Preordain for example and it gets worse if you have multiple Tutors or business spells in your opening hand, but no way to build T.hold or find early discard against combo. On top of that you get another card which is dead against yardhate and works poorly with LED.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
I was a big fan of Petition after release, but it only takes a few dozen games to stumble over the clunkiness of the card which is totally unnecessary to bother with in the first place.
Im generalizing ofc but not 100%. I have tested the card a lot and really dont like it. I still belive is not needed. Obv there are sceanarios where its great. Like you have toa and cant get hellbent or they surgical/meddling your infernal or revoker the led. But thats cornercase. As I told before ant has been played since years and the deck was a 4 infernal, 1 nauseam, 1 pif and 1 graveyard enghine card. Without grim tutor and it won events just like nowasaya. I understand that in some metagame/scanarios the DP Could be useful. Bur I dont think its like a card thats needed. Its not like you cant win without it in the deck while other cards like pif are a muss just for its raw power. Also I prefer playing a preordain all days of my life over DP.
In my test every time my opp started with DRS or I had ritual + Led and petition I wanted to kill myself. Obv In a goldfish its a great card. But so much things happened to me all rounds that I dissmissed thed card.
Dark Petition is great.
Disagree :P
When your opponents start with DRS, the worst engine you can have is Pif, not Petition imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
So I have a few differing opinions with these recent posts about both empty and dark petition.
Personally, I think empty is an amazing card, to the point where I play it in the maindeck and am very happy with it. It's just so good sincea lot of decks have a hard time dealing with it/racing it. It usually just wins vs delver, eldrazi, 4c loam, maverick, and burn, and is still ok vs miracles, dnt, stoneblade, the mirror, show and tell, reanimator and infect, especially if you drew a therapy. I agree that it feels bad to go off with empty and then have your opponent play a maelstrom pulse or draw a terminus or something, but that almost never happens.
I also do not like dark petition, the card can feel super nice when goldfishing, but in reality it's just SUPER clunky a lot of the time. Let me also say that I play grim tutor, a card that a lot of people (me included) feel is also pretty clunky, but I still think it's way, way smoother than dark petition, which says a lot.
Can we stick to the cards which rival the same slots fir the sake of discussion? Would you rather have a Preordain or a DP in your hand if your opponent opens with DRS? Personally, I would not like to see 5 mana tutors if my Cabal Rituals are already shut offQuote:
Originally Posted by Winterheart
I have beaten DRS with pif quite a lot of times. Just recasting 2 rituals and 3 cantrips just because he cant get everything. But when they get your tutor its usualy game over.
Also I have had the experice than since DRS is out and empty for 10 t2 gets raced By a shaman + any other creature. mucho more if they have x/1 cretures to chump and gain 2 life with DRS.
I just give my insight. No one has to be right and all cards are strong. I just feel I like more this aproach right now :)
Petition rivals the second piF PRETTY hard imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
not sure if you guys agreed on some stock list here or anything, but I was under the impression that most here ride the Togores Train. (no criticism here. was just an observation =))
So yes, I certainly want a DP instead of a 3rd preordain. Any day, every day.
I don't agree. Have you read much of the previous pages? If so, he did just win a GP. I think he has some credibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterheart
Edit: to be clear