I'm not saying it would work, but perhaps a Riftstone Portal might work? Can also help vs Blood Moon. Just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudiker
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I'm not saying it would work, but perhaps a Riftstone Portal might work? Can also help vs Blood Moon. Just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudiker
Some interesting data from SCG tops:
11 Grixis Delvers in top 32 Worcester:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck..._name&limit=50
and another 4 in top 16 of another event:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...ester&state=MA
3 very different Lands lists in those tops, one with 4GQ and 0 Ports, one with 4GQ and 3 Ports, one "classic" with 1GQ and 3 Ports. One with 3 Mazes, one with 2, one with (finally!) Riftstone Portal main, quite similar sideboard options:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=119254
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=119286
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=119291
And some more data - Luis Scott Vargas playing Lands on CFB:
https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...y-channel-lsv/
I disagree that this kind of build will always be slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I am playing 4 Explorations + 1 Manabond and this manabase:
Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
And I absolutely don't have the feeling that this list is slower than the standard RG build which plays +1 Tranquil/Sheltered Thicket & +1 Karakas/another Thicket or Taiga. So there is basically no difference in terms of speed (regarding creating the token). The difference is in the playstyle - a recurring EE definitely takes time. But creating a token or assembling a recurring EE are two completely different things.
TL;DR: Yes, you end up running an even more grindy build but you won't combo less quickly. But I am happy to hear your feedback about your experience!
4 Exploration + ManabondQuote:
Originally Posted by J0n
4 Mox
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Loam
4 PF/MV
That's 60 cards. I assume you have cut at least 1 spell to make room for 2x EE?
Normally people cut into the Stage/Depths package to make room for the EE package (hence the reduced speed). Just trying to figure out what you have cut instead (EE is a 4 card package, but you've listed only 2 cuts).
Your build does look like it would transition from fast to slow smoothly. Giving up a bit of utility and protection though.
Exactly, I am playing a 2/2 split pFire/EE. I absolutely don't need 4 EEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Also true. But to be honest: I don't like playing Karakas (S&T / BR Reanimator is still a bad MU, even with Karakas) and think that Canopy is overrated. I could play a second thicket to protect my loam... but as you already mentioned: I needed to cut the slots somewhere! ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
What I like the most is a) maindeck answers to annoying permanents and b) more SB slots as I don't need to play 4 Grips c) even after the second surgical I can still have a functional engine. The grind is real, especially with crucible in the SB...
And I guess that playing 4 DD seems to be absolutely necessary in the current meta, we need to be a able to jam a very fast token on the board.
J0n,
What’s your current list?
Spells:25Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
Lands:35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Drop of Honey
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Tomb
Quote:
Originally Posted by J0n
Interesting list. Few questions:
1) Do you feel you really need the Drop of Honey while running the EE engine?
2) Same question for Barbarian Ring
Thanks! =)
DoH is extremely good in the current meta, especially against TNN or just to slow-down the opponent without spending too much mana. Most of the Drops won't live long anyway - but the goal is to just trade better than the opp or remove critical creatures. Putting it in the Show & tell is nice but won't help you too much... anyway: It's not an engine and it won't live long. But it's a key card against D&T and TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgobs
Barb ring is more than a removal to me. In many MUs it feels more like an alternative win con, especially with exploration & crucible. I would not miss this card and love it. Originally it was introduced because of Sanctum Prelate but it also comes in very handy when removing annoying blockers like strixes, etc.
The lack of Trackers in this list is just due to my personal playing style.
@J0n: Thanks for the answer =)
@everyone:
Speaking of Trackers, what is your sideboard plan with them? I am having a confusing time trying to figure out what are the right in/out to play them. And in which m-u do you play them exactly now?
(I know I have asked this question here in the past, but the meta changed and I am still not sure what I am supposed to do here.) In advance, thank you!
They're basically not just very good beaters but a card draw engine which helps a lot in a "post surgical" board state but also protects loam against surgical. So board them in MUs where you expect a) grindy game b) need alternative clock c) have free slots (f.e. maze against storm, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgobs
Broken Bond
1G
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.
Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.
These look like they have potential.
Pretty sweet against Serra's Sanctum or forests covered with Wild Growths :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22
It's basically Sol Land hate, but I don't know if I'd prefer it over spheres as the first spell remains untaxed.
Doesn't work vs enchant lands, the enchantment produces mana not the land itself :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Ah, too bad, I've got 2 Enchantress players in my local store :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tittliewinks22
Looking for some advice. Went 3-2 today. Luckily it was a team event and I got backpacked through my two losses. Both losses were against proficient miracles players. I have not been able to get a game in against them. It seems the only way I can’t win the matchup is hoping my opponent plays poorly. But when against optimal opponent, I can’t find a line to victory. My sideboard no longer contains Boseiju, Nissa, Boil, Choke, etc since Top was banned. Is it time to go back to a slightly older board plan now that miracles is making a comeback?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm running Choke.
Been playing this list for a few months, I really like revoker in the SnT matchup and miracles games. Pressure life total or soaking up a stp to clear the way for tracker or ML is great and stops Jace+nahiri. Fallout has been great in matchups that go wide. I've seen so many drops get countered or ThoughtS, id rather just EE+ruins them.
The biggest drawback I've had has been speed, but I'm not afraid of a nice looooong grind my play style is conservative. Could swap Karakas for ancient tomb and speed it up.
RGCL (EE+Ruins):
Maindeck (60)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Krosan Grip
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ancient Tomb
Hi, i have GP Birmingham in a few months, im still searching for a deck, before buying a tabernacle, can i ask if drop of honey is really necessary?
thanks in advance and sorry for the weird question :D
DoH is not necessary (can help but is a little bit overrated). Tabernacle is necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfkid
With all these Moon stompy decks around lately, do we need to include enchantment hate mainboard, or do we just move to game 2 and sideboard? How's the matchup vs Moon stompy once we're sideboarded? (I'm pretty new to Lands, so I don't have first-hand experience in all the matchups yet).
Actually, you have a game1 out in Molten Vortex, loam and forest/mox,. It's unlikely because you need these three cards and youre opponent not playing chalice on 2 or racing you, but take your shot at gambling it together. (managed twice to pull it off , both games chiseled in my memory :tongue:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
The changed rulings of BloodMoon made life better for us. If you KGrip a Moon at the end of your opponent's turn, you'll attack for the win in yours (BloodMoon prevents counters being placed on Depths when you play it).
How about Countryside Crusher?Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
Just kidding, I am currently building Lands myself and was wondering about this too since there's around two of those stompy lists in every FNM. Mox + Grip or getting lucky with Molten Vortex seems like the way to go.
Vortex is your best bet...because any enchantment/artifact hate wont be enough...theyll drop chalice, moon, then bridge on you. luckily vortex is only stopped by one of those, and made better by another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
If you find yourself losing to a chalice at 1 vs moon alot...maybe try a seismic assault in that slot.
I played RGb for a while with 3 decays main and no punishing fires. I did sneak a g1 win vs moon stompy by doing a true gamble for a decay and target a bridge and attacking ftw. which ill never forget, cause then in g2 of that matchup, i got to do the new depths/moon/kgrip interaction for the first time.
Need some advice folks!
What do you thin about Barbarian Ring? Main ? Side? or not at all?
Answer for Prelate only? or do you have other cases where you want Bring?
Depends on who you're asking ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by benjiman13
Some like it as a wincon and won't miss it.
I was liking it main because it is a land. So it fits better to the Lands theme. But now I cut it.
I have the feeling that the ring is good if your game is good already. On gravehate, it's bad. In the early game it's not great but at least giving red mama.
After all, PF was always the better card for me in the past.
If you have the space, why not...
Oh: If you have no DoH or EE, maybe no PF, then include it... Main...
I am currently on this list:
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Molten Vortex
3 Punishing Fire
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
61 cards I know but I can cut an Horizon Canopy.
For the SB:
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Trinisphere
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Krosan Grip
And the 4 flex spots:
1 Song of the Dryads
1-2 Choke
1 Crucible of World
1 Kozilek's Return
1-2 Drop of Honey
1 Pithing Needle
I have a lot of trouble right now with D&T without the Barbarian Ring but I don't like it in all the others MU. K return or Drop of Honey is better in this MU?
What about Crucible of World in this meta full of surgical? Did a player will surgical the Depths instead of Loam?
Anyone still in love with Pithing Needle?
Won a small 18 man tournament this sunday with RG lands. Really love the build. I dropped Manabond and never missed it.
My list:
36 LANDS
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 Windswept Heath
2 Sheltered Thicket
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Ancient Tomb
15 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
9 OTHER SPELLS
4 Exploration
1 Molten Vortex
4 Mox Diamond
SIDEBOARD
2 Drop of Honey
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Choke
1st round against Grixis Death Shadow
Played against Martin Zimmermann, a pro player against I played a lot in the past when I was more active in playing magic. Nice competitive guy, enjoyed playing against each other after long time. He played Grixis Death Shadow with some green splash SB for Loam and Ancient Grudge. First game he mulls, I was able to play Exploration (he drew Force of Will the draw step after) and turn 2 Marit Lage.
Board: +2 Drop +3 Tracker +2 Choke –Bog –Karakas –4 Gamble -1 Fire
Second game he had two Wasteland, Surgical on my Loam and too much pressure with a 8/8 Shadow. Third game I had two Strip Mines and a Choke with was enough to threaten his mana.
I like to board out Gambles against decks with Surgical because the randomness makes it possible that you simply loose if you have to discard Depths and he can Surgical it. Sometimes I take Crop Rotations instead. They are very good protection against Wasteland, for speed and finding Tabernacle, but Daze / Force on this is really annoying.
1-0, 2:1
2nd round against Dredge
Opponent was Daniel Manz, really nice guy with a love for Groot too :-)
He is often on Dredge. We take place in the feature match are (it was a new tournament in Mainz organized by Mitja Held -well done – and even had a life stream of the feature matches.
Daniel mulls to 4, starts with LED, Faithless Looting, a lot of Dredge, putting two Narcomoeba into play. I kept a hand with green mana and Crop Rot, rotate for Bojuka Bog, took hits until I was at 12 life, had double Maze and Marit Lage.
Board: +4 Grip – Karakas –Barbarian Ring - 2 Fire
Kept a starter with 3 Crop. He starts with Leyline of Sanctity, so no bogging him L His first draw was even a Leyline of the Void. He boarded in all 8 Leyline! But against Dredge I board all Grips because of Silent Gravestone.
Nothing of that matters, because I drew naturally into turn 4 Marit Lage. The turn before he played Cabal Therapy naming Crop and hit all 3…
2-0, 4:1
3rd round against Men of Steel (Artifact Stompy)
I played against THE inventor of men of steel himself, Amadeus Grün. Amadeus had a lot of success with the deck at MKM Frankfurt (without a loss to semi finals). I know Amadeus from the good old times when we played a lot of vintage against each other. Ah, and he has usually the nut draws against me…
Game one we both mulled, he starts with Chalice 0, my hand with Mox Diamond draw Mox two and three was not really great against this…
Board: + 4 Grip +2 Drop –Karakas –Bog -4 Gamble
Goal is to screw him on mana or destroy Chalice and Spyglas. Game 2 and 3 went like this, a lot of ressource trading, Wastelanding and Tabernacling…2 very close good games of magic with better ending for me. Attacking with Spellskite is quite annoying against Punishing Fire and Mazes…
3-0, 6:2
4th round against Grixis Delver
Opponent Stefan Czolk, another very good player in our area. Feature match again. Joked to him that I won all the feature matches today. But pretty usual when you are at 3-0 ;-)
Game one did Lands what Lands do to Grixis.
Board: +2 Drop +3 Tracker +2 Choke (maybe incorrect) –Bog –Karakas -Tomb -4Gamble
Second game he got me with two fast flipped Delver and Price of Progress.
Third game went back and forth, he forced a Choke, Dazed a Crop Rot in his turn in early game, so I was able to play Tabernacle from Hand and he could not pay for his Delver ( no lands left). Got him with Tireless Tracker AND Marit Lage and some nice Platypus Clue tokens.
4-0, 8:3
At this point it was pretty clear that I win the tournament because the other remaining 3-0 lost.
5th and last round against BUG Delver
And here comes the endboss. The BUG player who lost last round and is on 3-1 now. He did not want to draw what is ok for me. We are here to play magic J And had 3 nice and friendly and tough games.
Game one both mull to 6, I Loam / Wasteland him out.
Board: +2 Drop + 2 Tracker +2 Choke –Bog – Ring -4 Gamble. Karakas stays in because of his Leovolds.
Second game I lost cause of his Wastelands, Surgical and quick delver.
Third game was really grindy. He had active Deathrite, I Loam and Thicket to protect Loam. He had Pithing Needle on Stage and Surgicaled Fire. We traded a lot of ressources. Finally we went to extra turns, I am on 3 life, slow on mana (Tabernacle in play, Waste Loam him every turn, but no accelerator, he had land drop every turn), one Maze removed by Deathrite. So I had to draw my last Maze to prevent dying to his flipped Delver. Good plan, I drew it J
Some turns later I had Tracker and Drop of Honey to clear his board, but could not make enough damage. So it is a draw. We could have this easier :D
4-0-1, 9:4
Got an englisch Force of Will for first price which is ok.
Overall a very nice tournament with a lot of friendly people, no Sneak and Show or Storm, a lot of creature decks for me and luckily the two Reanimator players had the mirror and never met me ;-)
Maybe just kidding and random idea. But still unsure if I should drop all the Storm and Sneak hate from sideboard...we are losing anyway in 80%, don´t we? Or to Show and Tell a one off Sanwurm Convergence to Gamble for against Sneak and something similar for storm?
Someone had succes in a 341 people event with the same idea dropping most of Storm and Sneak hate:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18846&d=317945&f=LE
The Emrakul in the SB is a surprise... I like that. Maybe we could think about other 'surprises' too...things nobody would think about in Lands...Quote:
Originally Posted by slayjay
I tried single Convergence just for that, yet it's simply useless against everything else and you can't really cast it. Primeval Titan is better here as it can be used in some other games. I'll rather try things like Cast Out, Trinisphere etc. Convergence can be bounced if they puy Omniscience from Showntell, so yeah, it's temtping, but after a while I decided against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by slayjay
I played a 6 rounder over the weekend. I used something similar to slayjay above but shoved in engineered explosives and worm harvest and ran 62 cards.
As lame as it sounds, I played against blewstew&deathrite 5 of the 6 rounds.
I lost in the finals (force of will is a card) but it was worth it to hear the complaints about playing against Lands...
I see why there are more creatures creeping into our lists like the one-of Mishra's factory (diabolic edict).
The only games I won were with quick Lage or with worm tokens to protect Lage from the edict.
I did steal one game (against non-blue deck) with barbarian ring, oh yeah!
Too many times my Lage would just get edicted and those games reminded me of the battles against Miracles:
You had to tap down their white source at end of turn make momma Lage.
But now, it's tapping down, wasting or quartering their black sources (and killing deathrite) so they can't cast the edict...
Exactly what I've been thinking. Is it time to go back to a black splash for MB decays and SB creatures like Bob and maybe pack rat or something? The main hate I have been seeing online is MB Back to Basics and Bloodmoon with mainly surgical and edicts in the side. Not very much mass gravehate like rip or Tormod's Crypt with the occasional leyline but they are rare makes running ways to draw cards a lot better as they have to choose between taking a DD or a Loam instead of nuking us.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
I also saw a 5-0 list on mtgo that had a MB Sylvan Library in straight GR Lands which seems interesting as a grindy cards since combo isn't around as much it seems.
Maybe we can get back to DTB now?
GP Seattle Tournament report here
Grats! Nice to see some Lands finishes.
Took lands to a top 8 finish at a GPT on Saturday, it was only the 2nd time I've played it (the first being fnm the night before with a 1-3 finish).
If anyone is interested I can provide a quick report. I did make quite a few misplays (the last cost me a place in the semi).
What are your thoughts on that Sylvan Awakening card from dominaria?
EDIT: I'm also looking at the new multani, but it seems too slow
I guess everyone is interested in your report ;) 2nd time playing for top8 over 1600 people is breathtaking for sure!Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
Haha wrong GPT, this was a small gpt in the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiktul
Ah... so there is some justice in the world afterall... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai