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This was actually a good explanation, I understood the previous one aswell even thought it was the nuts but anyway :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBarber
If you have a hand with rituals and cantrips AND infernal tutor. What do you do?
Is it best to infernal for the 2nd tendrils, or just cantrip and find the win in another way?
What i'm getting at is, when do you do this minitendrils plan over another plan?!
I would play a Burning Wish build if I didn't have Grims. Another option is another Ad Naus. You just need business cards. A MD Chain is reasonable too as it helps build Storm at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by justindz
More mana is the relevant part. You aren't under pressure in the match ups you want Silence in, so the extra 4 drop for Ad Naus is pretty irrel. To be fair you only actively want it against Enchantress as the game ender, so if you don't expect that you can cut it.Quote:
Edit: another question. Reverent Silence over Back to Nature? It seems more dangerous with Ad Nauseum and ups the required storm count by 3, but I'm assuming the upside is that it is harder for Countertop to stop than Back to Nature (they have to use Jace on top). Is that right? Are there any pros/cons I'm missing? Is it worth the trade-off, considering CB is so bad anyway and you'd rather have Grip there?
Merfolk and Vengevival are jokes as Daze and Wasteland are complete bricks. You don't need the help from Swarm, and getting Green actively hurts you against Waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Grim is much worse than Infernal, but it's the best option that gets IGG active. B Wish is vom as you can't really Tutor chain with it either, and there aren't other UB options.
-W/o Mox you just have to have mana floating. There's Cabal Ritual for that.
-More lands = beating Waste/Daze. Also lets you just out gun Landstill and other non-CB control going late. I cut one against decks where the game ends fast and they can't Waste/Daze me. Mox sucks as it costs cards which costs Storm which forces you to not Tutor chain.
Game one you only really worry about hard counters. Against big control decks you can just use extra Tutors to load up and the aggro-control decks don't have enough to matter. You actually are better at finding Duresses than control is at finding counters and if they have answers you have time as they aren't super fast. More Duress also hurts for Infernalling without LED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow
Yesterday I competed in a 21 man tournament for a non-sapphire mox of our choice. I sleeved up egosum's RANT list featured back on page 119 with the exception of a Mox Diamond for an additional Underground Sea and a vastly different side (which I think was a mistake in hind sight).
My sideboard was:
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
1 Shattering Spree
2 Wipe Away
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grape Shot
1 Ill-gotten Gains
My notes are a little sketchy at placed but it should be fairly dead on.
Round 1 Derek Wochinski with 4C Jace Still (I think)
Derek is a good friend of mine so I immediately put him on some blue control list.
Game 1 (on the draw)
Derek takes a mulligan. I keep my opening seven (I remeber there was double duress, a fetch, and gas). He then leads off with a fetchland and passes. I lead off with a fetch into underground sea and Duress him. He responds with brainstorm and shows a hand of Innocent Blood, 2 Pernicious Deed, Fetch, Scrubland... Seems like it should be easy. He plays fetch and passes. I rip another Dark Ritual (I think and cast Duress and then Adnausem with 1 black floating and finally get the kill at 2 life... evidently 10 8 tutors and a Tendrils isn't enough to kill quicker.)
Game 2 (on the draw)
Suffice it to say I never got the upper hand in the match... Every time I cast a Duress or Thoughtseize he had draw another 2 counters. Oh how I loath his opening hand of 1 FoW, 2 Stand Still, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Brainstorm, and 2 land. I did manage to eat through 2 FoW, 2 Spell Pierce, and a BEB before I finally succumbed to Factory beats. The only thing I think I shoulda done different in this match is to prolly decide to hold onto my discard spells until I could cast a couple back to back and then try and punch through on the next turn although I doubt that would have even worked.
Game 3 (on the play)
I board in the Doomsday package and leave the 4th in the board for a burning wish target.
This game starts with about 10 minutes to go and again has us playing a game of duress counter go for almost eternity. with about 5 minuets to go he resolves a Mind Sculptor and starts fate sealing me into oblivions with me still unable to punch through his wall of counters. Finally in the second turn of time I am able to punch through but quickly realize I can't kill with any combination and he will be one turn away from exiling my library although I have a full hand of cards so it wouldn't have mattered to much.
BTW: question for anyone. Is there a pile I could make to kill my opponent with an active Mind Sculptor, my 7 card hand, and no meditate? As for mana I had 5 lands in play, a Rite of Flame and a Dark Ritual in hand. It seems like there prolly is but I couldn't think of one. He had 17 life.
0-0-1
Round 2 Joe Baker playing Martyr of Sands/Proclamation of Rebirth deck... oh joy...
Game 1 (on the draw)
He plays an Emeria (it allows him to bring creatures back if he has 7 plains in play) and passes turn. I lead with Underground Sea-> Dark Ritual-> Duress (to cover my bases)-> Dark Ritual-> Dark Ritual->Ad Nausem dropping to 12 life to kill him.
Game 2 (on the draw)
He plays plains and passes turn. On my upkeep he casts a silence. I draw my card and play a land then pass back. On his next turn he plays a land and imprints an Isochron scepter with Silence. I take my turn and realize that I don't have my WipeAways boarded in so I go the safe route and plop out 10 Goblins and beat face. Thankfully he can't keep throw down enough blockers and make effective use of his Martyr of Sands and eventually succumbs to beats.
1-0-1
Round 3 Spencer Skibba playing midrange Zoo (I designed and built for him).
Game 1 (On the draw)
He plays a fetch and cashes it in for a Taiga which leads to a Nacatl. I draw my card and decided to go for it with no mana floating and pray... I am at 20 life... Apparently fortune favors the brave sometimes. I reveal in order... LED LED LED Lotus Petal Rite of Flame Burning Wish. That game wen't fairly smooth I would say. Sadly game 2 wasn't as flawless.
Game 2
He leads off with another Taiga into Nacatl. I decide to go for it again right off the bat (I wasn't very afraid of fearing a burn heavy hand or a Teeg next turn)... Apparently I should have waited though as the first card I reveal is the second Ad Nos... and then no tutor effects... Sitting at 4 life I have no chance to kill unless I cast the revealed brainstorm with my only possible blue source or I can push on. I decided to push on and reveal my Tendrils also... Evidently 20 life wasn't enough that time... Seriously... WTF
Game 3
I keep a sketchy hand and end up regretting it. Apparently my deck felt bad about not giving me any tutor effects so I draw them for 3 straight turns even after (having 2 in my opener) casting them and fetching rituals. I never realized how irritating not being hellbent can be with Infernal Tutor. Suffice it to say I was turned into a bloody smear although I almost managed to pull out with the third tutor since it was a Burning Wish but he had the Lightning Bolt to kill me in response.
1-1-1
Round 4 to come later... My eyes are getting buggy ATM
If you Doomsday stacking Wipe Away you can get Emrakul and attack him. You wipe away Emrakul post-combat if he doesn't sac it. If he has enough lands to survive sac 6 and then pay for jace again, I don't think you get to win. The exact variation of the pile would depend on your hand, but it's possible that you might be able to setup Tendrils/Wish->Grapeshot instead of Wipe Away.
@AriLax: Today I tested your exact list and really, REALLY liked it.
My only concern was the lack of Chrome Moxen against (Saito's) Merfolk. After Duressing and paying for either Daze, Spell Pierce and/or Curse Catcher -- and having recieved som early damage -- I found it a bit problematic casting Ad Nauseam without any mana floating.
It could be my lack of experience with the deck, and storm decks in general, but I think I'll test with 1-3 Chrome Moxen. Maybe when I become more familiar the deck, I will agree with you on the lands/moxen count :smile:
On a site note, I also found Grim Tutors very good. I love the fact that they enable IGG and tutor chains, which I found especially useful against Zoo (I totally crushed it in testing :smile:).
Yeah, I'd say this deck uses Ad Nauseam a little differently than something like TES. TES isn't afraid to go off with 0 mana and 0 land drops remaining as it can usually find a Mox or Petal and doesn't need to necessarily hit LED to use its tutors. This deck, however, seems to really want at least 1 mana floating or a land drop remaining. Fortunately, the deck is designed to do that very well by turn 3, using all of its cantrips to fuel Thresheld Cabal Rituals.Quote:
Originally Posted by NesretepNoj
I haven't played any UB(g/w) lists enough to tell, but they look really appealing against Merfolk. The resistance to Wasteland combined with the ability to reach large amounts of mana to pay for their taxing counters with Cabal Ritual seems like it would be effective.
People seems to be preoccupied with Grim Tutor. ANT doesn't really need it, as long as you have 4x IT, 4x Ponder, 4x Brainstorm, 2x SDT, 2x AdN you'll be goldfshing by turn 3 if your list supports a 4th Cabal Rit. and 3x Chrome Moxen. I'm not afraid to go off with 0 mana since I usually play with 4x LEDs, 4x Petals, 3x Chromes.
So, I have been testing this list recently and would like some help / advice on SB choices for my meta and also a few thoughts on the notes I will put after this list:
ANT:
2 Ad Nauseum
1 Tendrils
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Duress
3 Silence
1 Echoing Truth
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Echoing Truth
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Deathmark
3 Orim’s Chant
3 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
So, a little breakdown of what I have and what I would like to change:
3 Silence / 3 Duress – a nice little package of disruption that allows me to play around counters etc.
1 Echoing Truth – allows me a Maindeck out to troublesome cards pre-board. Not always relevant, but sometimes awesome!
1 Mox Diamond – was put in the deck to help post Ad Nauseum, but has been really disappointing, this is one of the cards I would like help replacing.
2 Ancient Tombs – Helps accelerate into turn 2 Ad Nauseum and has been amazing most times I have drawn one. Would think about reducing this to a one-of, but I like drawing one per game.
I am reasonably happy with this Maindeck, apart from those couple of things I mentioned
above. I was thinking of changing the Diamond to a Preordain and the same for one of the Ancient Tombs. I am running Tombs as I don’t have City of Traitors, but that is a budget thing right now and will be changed as soon as I can afford the better option.
As for the sideboard, I am finding that savvy burn players can get me if I go too low with Ad Nauseum or even if I go the Iggy route, if they are clever and have a fast hand. Also, discard can wreck my day, so I am wanting to put Leyline of Sanctity in the board for those matchups as well as the mirror.
Extirpate has been hit and miss, as it wrecks UG Madness Survival, but that isn’t too bad a matchup anyways, so was thinking of ditching that. But then again, it works wonders in the mirror, esp if you can hit a tutor or a ritual in response to IGGY or suchlike.
Any ideas and/or criticisms, as long as they are well thought out and useful, would be welcome!
Dave
I wouldn't play more than 2-3 Moxen in this deck, since it often has mana floating after AdN anyway. I would play some number of Preordains and/or SDTs instead.
Crystal Vein is better than both Tomb and CoT in this deck and it also helps with getting thresh on the combo turn.
I wouldn't play maindeck bounce since it will just give you a false sense of security, and it won't really help you when you need it (no way to tutor for it), but, on the other hand, it's likely to be a dead draw that will screw you over and you already have 2 dead draws (almost) in IGG and Tendrils.
Extirpate doesn't really do anything for ANT anymore. It was good in the mirror because you could mess up your opponent's library after they Mystical Tutored, and it was also a good hoser against Reanimator but now tt's only relevant against Doomsday decks and those aren't widely played. It can be useful against Landstil/infinite-counterspells.decl if you want to remove their FoWs or Counterspelsl, but you don't really need help in that matchup. It might be good against Vengevines, but I think it's better to focus on winning instead of just preventing the opponent from doing so himself. ANT is also a lot faster than Survival.
Leyline of Sanctity doesn't benefit this deck. If you board 4 of them in vs black decks, you will have to board out AdN since it will become useless. This means you will have to win with IGG and your day will be ruined if they have Relic or Extirpate. The matchup vs any black discard deck is very easy, in my opinion. Play out your artifact mana, hide your good cards from discard and eventually you will be able to cast Ad Naus or Infernal Tutor into one. If you play SDT, it's the MVP of this matchup and a card that's hard for them to beat. The only time it can be hard to beat a black deck is when they play some kind of hate permanent as well (Null Rod, Thorn of Amethyst, Canonist, etc.), but they rarely play these cards.
Burn is also not that hard. Don't keep crappy/slow hands and you will win. Non-lethal Tendrils is also pretty good against them because it buys a lot of time for you to find IGG and finish them.
The Leyline might steal 1 game in the mirror if they don't expect it, but it's a terrible hate card against ANT because it doesn't stop Ad Naus from drawing into a bounce spell + the kill.
A total of 12 protection spells (sb included) seems a bit excessive. If you ever board that much in, you will dillute your engine too much and have a hard time making anything happen. Xantid Swarm and Dark Confidant are good sb cards you should consider.
Hi, congrats on your results, could you please post sideboarding tips?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Thanks
There we go,
Yesterday I won the Dutch Open National Legacy Champs again with NL-ANT, after winning it last year with reanimate:
Over 200 ppl showed up,
This was my list:
2 island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacomb
2 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 preordain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
2 ad nauseam
1 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils of agony
4 infernal tutor
SB:
4 doomsday
1 emrakul, the aeons thorn
1 shell-dock isle
4 xantid swarm
1 tropical island
4 chain of vapors
Straightforward list:
detailed match-ups will be there later due to being at work:
Round 1: vengevival 2-0
Round 2: Hypergenesis combo 2-0
Round 3: Dark tempo-***** 2-0 ( he mulled to 5 game 1)
Round 4: Merfolk 2-1
Round 5: TES 2-0
Round 6: Dredge 2-1
Round 7 ID ( it was safe to do so, but needed some calculations)
Round 8 ID ( all seems perfectly safe)
Quarterfinals: Goblins 2-0
Semi-finals: 41lands 2-0
Finals: TES 2-0
Wow excellent work man. Props. Winning a huge Dutch tournament like that hold much more value for me than any GP could because its the fucking Dutch. I look forward to the report. What decks did you ID against?Quote:
Originally Posted by practical joke
I ID't against Ooze-survival and against a Rock-list.
I know players.
Very, very, very compliments! :)
Just a couple of questions:
-did you feel you ever wanted Chants instead of Seizes? You didn't meet any blue deck but ********, but it would have been relevant. I also find Chant useful against Vengevival to stop their second creature spell.Thoughtseize may hurt as a lifeloss for Ad Nauseam, in this fast metagame.
-did you ever missed Sensei's Divining Top? I understand that 12 cantrips are cool, but you should need a form of steady manipulation, especially against discard decks (Dark Horizons) where you don't even play sb Dark Confidant. Also, after Ad Nauseam SDT helps you by cantripping with mana produced off Rituals, which is very important in finding the missing Infernal or LED.
I've done 10 +2 SDT and it's fine for me.
-I guess the DD plan was useless all day because of the lack of Countertop. Would you still leave it in? Most of the CTop variants left are Dreadstill, at least here (maybe in the NLs Thopter or Bant is still spread), so I don't know..Grip seems way better.
With twelve cantrips and 10 fetch, you get treshhold easily which makes the deck quite resistant to taxing spells like daze or spell pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I played against 3 blue decks. Merfolk, dark tempo and Vengevival.
Thoughtseize is great, sure 2 life is important, but most of the time the effect is worth the 2 life.
Never missed SDT, and I had only 1 situation where I wanted a orim's chant, and only because I could go off with ill-gotten gains instead of ad nauseam at 14 life with 2 mana float.
If you know how to work/protect your deck with your cantrips, you'll be fine. In the first TES match I pondered into insanity. 2 land, 2 rituals on hand and on top ritual, ad nauseam, LED. So I drew my ritual because I knew he had a duress. He didn't used it, so I won. If he used it, I would've won as well.
@practical joke: Congrats!
I run the same liste as you (or rather Ari Lax' list), which only differs in: +1 Island, +1 Swamp, -2 Chrome Mox, +2 Grim Tutors, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 Thoughtseize. I have tested your list as well, but didn't like the moxen. I feel they cause me to take some unwanted mulligans, either because of not drawing a single land or not having access to the right colours. I've also tested without Grim Tutors, but found myself too often cantripping into nothing against fast decks. Grim Tutors also retains functionality with Ill-Gotten Gains and doesn't need LED pre- and post Ad Nauseam. What are your thoughts?
PS. I've also considered running the DD/Emrakul sideboard against CTop. I'll test it in futere.
In my opinion your Post-ad nauseam seems terrible. You only have 4 ways of getting starting mana, the 4 petals. You should consider grim tutors as a 6 life-loss. Since 3 for the hit and 3 to cast and You can't always rely on ill-gotten gains.
The chrome moxes are awesome unless you have both of them in your opening hand. Now what are the chances of that happening.
I play 15 lands, 12 cantrips. The chances that grab only my single swamp is quite low.
I play 14 blue mana sources. On average I should have at least 1 and a cantrip in my opening hand.
Too many lands are horrible. I've had a few situations where I couldn't combo out that turn because I drew a land to many so I couldn't empty my hand for an infernal tutor. I seriously consider removing either a sea or a fetch for a third chrome mox.
Also against fast decks, grim tutor could be a bitch as well since you will cast it twice in an ill-gotten gains loop meaning you lose a whopping 6 life...
Even in an ill-gotten gains loop that is a lot. I would by far prefer a doomsday pile above grim tutor with ill-gotten gains. Less mana, same ammount/more storm
Very nice job!
I think your list is close to perfection. The clean UB manabase with few duals just destroys Merfolk. You should probably play a Wipe Away to put in the Doomsday pile, because if you meet a CB deck these days, they will have Pithing Needles for sure. I really miss SDT against decks like Brad Nelson's PT Junk, but the full set of Preordain is probably better overall since it speeds the deck up and it has better synergy with Cabal Ritual and Brainstorm.
Did you have to cantrip into the win after AdN during the tournament, or did you always flip IT+LED or Tendrils?
I think the list can be improved.
I've had rare situations that I had to cantrip into a win, but those were during tests and it happens very rarely.
I. if possible do not sac my second LED when casting ad nauseam, or keep my LED at hand.
It can happen, and I do think this list lacks a proper tutor. Both lim-dul's vault and personal tutor are to slow and grim tutor is costing to much when trying to ill-gotten gains/or find it with ad nauseam. so I chose to be a bit greedy and play only 6cards that would provide me action.
Those you have to protect with everything you have.
Most of the time I flipped IT and/or LED or I used LED and infernal tutor to find ad nauseam and then flipped ill-gotten gains.
Congrats on the win man... nice side gg Counterbalance (why play krosan grips when we can kill them with 15/15)