[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

Congrats. Couple difficult MU's for sure. I'd like to ask you about some of the choices, how do you feel 3 Needle worked for you? I've tried it and it felt a little bit to much, so I dropped it to do 2. Also, how are the old Crop Rotations working? It was my favorite interaction in the deck before moving to 4 Cradle.

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Thanks man! :smile: I had been playing with only 2 Needles before, but always felt like I wanted more, since it offers so much flexibility against some of our worst MUs. It is the card I want most against Miracles since shutting down Top is so important in this Match Up. But also in other MUs like Sneak&Show, I feel 2 Needle is just too low, to have one available when you really want it. Needle on Sneak Attack is huge! Combined with virtual 3 Karakas that is a rough beating for S&T Decks. And now I even have 3 Swan Song too! (Which by the way I can only recommend to anybody! That card is plain AWESOME!)
I guess if you have the SB space, running 3 Needle is something you won´t regret, trust me. Especially at the moment where UWR Delver and Miracles is running rampant.

About the Crop Rotation: I started to play these again like 5 weeks ago because I wanted sth. to beat - or let´s better say: to NOT just die immediately - against fast GY decks which are played quite often around here. Meanwhile I stopped counting the situations, where Crop Rotation either helped me out of difficult situations or just won me the game on the spot. Be it against Reanimator in response to exhuming Iona, "refueling" Glimpse Chains when I was forced to make a land drop earlier in the turn, denying Rishadan Ports or Wastelands, bouncing random Marit Lage tokens, winning games vs Dredge out of nowhere or bouncing Emrakuls. I really really like them in my list as it is now because it gives me answers to almost any deck I can think of, while being as consistent as ever before.

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Originally Posted by venice

Thanks man! :smile: I had been playing with only 2 Needles before, but always felt like I wanted more, since it offers so much flexibility against some of our worst MUs. It is the card I want most against Miracles since shutting down Top is so important in this Match Up. But also in other MUs like Sneak&Show, I feel 2 Needle is just too low, to have one available when you really want it. Needle on Sneak Attack is huge! Combined with virtual 3 Karakas that is a rough beating for S&T Decks. And now I even have 3 Swan Song too! (Which by the way I can only recommend to anybody! That card is plain AWESOME!)
I guess if you have the SB space, running 3 Needle is something you won´t regret, trust me. Especially at the moment where UWR Delver and Miracles is running rampant.

About the Crop Rotation: I started to play these again like 5 weeks ago because I wanted sth. to beat - or let´s better say: to NOT just die immediately - against fast GY decks which are played quite often around here. Meanwhile I stopped counting the situations, where Crop Rotation either helped me out of difficult situations or just won me the game on the spot. Be it against Reanimator in response to exhuming Iona, "refueling" Glimpse Chains when I was forced to make a land drop earlier in the turn, denying Rishadan Ports or Wastelands, bouncing random Marit Lage tokens, winning games vs Dredge out of nowhere or bouncing Emrakuls. I really really like them in my list as it is now because it gives me answers to almost any deck I can think of, while being as consistent as ever before.

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Thanks for the response. Yes the Karakas is nice tech (so is Bojuka Bog) obviously abused by other decks utilizing Crop Rotation as of late. I'm sure its great if your meta has a lot of big legendary things, gyard or not.

So how is everyone finding those Swan Songs? They look so odd in the sides of all your lists but obviously they are having an effect.

Played in the Legacy Championships at GP Prague earlier today:

R1: Mono Brown Stax (2-0)
R2: UWr Delver (2-0)
R3: Shardless (2-0)
R4: BURG (2-0)
R5: Team America (2-0)

Talk about awesome starts. Then I lost R6 to Grzegorz (whom I defeated in the semis of the Bazaar of Moxen) on ANT and also the last round to a nice guy from Vienna with a not so nice deck in the form of UWr. UWr can be actually pretty easy at times but the problem comes with with keeping medicore hands which you will usually not mulligan. Right now I feel that in order to win this matchup, you might really have to.

Anyways, I still Top8'ed (88 players) but there were no playoffs which would have been awesome! Still, had an absolutely awesome weekend in Prague! Thanks guys!

I have a question regarding Swan Song, what MUs are we applying this too outside of combo and Miracles?

Definitely not Canadian Threshold although I wish we could. With only 1 Tropical Island though, it's just too fragile overall.

I also bring it in in the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Definitely not Canadian Threshold although I wish we could. With only 1 Tropical Island though, it's just too fragile overall.

I also bring it in in the mirror.

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The mirror is a good MU, thanks. I always forget about the mirror. And why not Canadian Thresh? You mean to tell me you don't want to give them a mini delver? :)

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

The mirror is a good MU, thanks. I always forget about the mirror. And why not Canadian Thresh? You mean to tell me you don't want to give them a mini delver? :)

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He means he'd rather count on two copies of Bayou to get his hate through than a single Trop. Though I'm so going to try Swan Song vs. Delver anyway. One highlight being giving US a mini-Delver, preferably while blowing up their guy. Swan Song is also far more appropriate Rough protection than Thoughtseize is.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Played in the Legacy Championships at GP Prague earlier today:

(...)
R2: UWr Delver (2-0)
(...)

(...) [I Lost] the last round to a nice guy from Vienna with a not so nice deck in the form of UWr. UWr can be actually pretty easy at times but the problem comes with with keeping medicore hands which you will usually not mulligan. Right now I feel that in order to win this matchup, you might really have to.
(...)

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Congrats!

Please, describe how did you manage to '2-0' this R2-UWr-opponent. :smile:

Also, on your evaluation above, which are the hands that you are considering "mediocre" on this MU, so that one needs to mull them away?

It'll probably involve a combination of holding stuff off with Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor/random elf + Wirewood Symbiote, bouncing a Viridian Shaman with a Wirewood Symbiote, a Pithing Needle on Jitte, some discard/Abrupt Decay-action or plopping a Progenitus on the board rather quickly :smile:

Is this deck still viable in the current meta? So many team america and miracle decks arround with their weird terminus, toxic deluge... How to beat these decks? I cant afford this!

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Originally Posted by fluuu

Is this deck still viable in the current meta? So many team america and miracle decks arround with their weird terminus, toxic deluge... How to beat these decks? I cant afford this!

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The better question is if Elves is viable in your meta. If your local game has a lot of those types of decks then it might be advisable to play something else for the time being. Decks get better and worse over time. Just note that there is something to be said for playing a deck for a long time through thick and thin as that is how true mastery comes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by fluuu

Is this deck still viable in the current meta? So many team america and miracle decks arround with their weird terminus, toxic deluge... How to beat these decks? I cant afford this!

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Originally Posted by Benjammn

The better question is if Elves is viable in your meta. If your local game has a lot of those types of decks then it might be advisable to play something else for the time being. Decks get better and worse over time. Just note that there is something to be said for playing a deck for a long time through thick and thin as that is how true mastery comes.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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Yeah, as Benjammn said its really all on your meta. I wouldn't play Elves if you see Miracles every other game. Team America is probably the easier of the tempo decks IMO. I'd be more worried about UWR and RUG. It also depends on what your board looks like. I just finished playing in the online daily and faced two miracle decks, beating both. Pithing Needle, Abrupt Decay, and Swan Song were all stars there. I'm not saying the MU isn't difficult with that as a board, but I am saying with the right board configuration the harder MUs can become reasonable.

If you ask me Elves is always viable to some degree, but I think that as it is a combo deck that uses creatures as its engine, it leaves us susceptible to more threats then normal combo decks would face.

Hi. This will be my first time posting here and there's so much content here regarding elves that I'm just overwhelmed by the capabilities of this deck in Legacy. I'd just like to ask a few questions though I'm not certain if the questions have already been answered in the prior pages...

1.) Is it viable to run 1-sylvan library in the sideboard? Most elves decks have a fourth natural order but I'm still looking for a 4th copy hence I'm thinking of substituting it for a sylvan library since I saw a prior list (Matt Nass?) that had a Sylvan Library in the sideboard.

2.) Is there any good justification for running 1x Worldspine Wurm in the sideboard? I saw Andrew Cuneo run one copy but I think it's meta-dependent since from where I play, SnT decks have dwindled down in numbers...

3.) How come heritage druid gets sided out most of the time? Doesn't heritage druid power out the deck in terms of mana production or does heritage druid suffer post-board when the opponent unleashes a flurry of removal spells to make its ability quite unreliable? (I think I answered my own question lol) :laugh:

and finally....

4.) I've been running 1x Terastodon and it's been doing a lot of work lately. I've used Terastodon to slow down certain decks such as MUD and 12-Post (Yes... there are quite a number of rogue decks in our area so I find Terastodon valuable in a lot of situations). How come most, if not all, of the elves decks so far doesn't run a copy? Just wondering...:confused:

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Originally Posted by Yanley

Hi. This will be my first time posting here and there's so much content here regarding elves that I'm just overwhelmed by the capabilities of this deck in Legacy. I'd just like to ask a few questions though I'm not certain if the questions have already been answered in the prior pages...

1.) Is it viable to run 1-sylvan library in the sideboard? Most elves decks have a fourth natural order but I'm still looking for a 4th copy hence I'm thinking of substituting it for a sylvan library since I saw a prior list (Matt Nass?) that had a Sylvan Library in the sideboard.

2.) Is there any good justification for running 1x Worldspine Wurm in the sideboard? I saw Andrew Cuneo run one copy but I think it's meta-dependent since from where I play, SnT decks have dwindled down in numbers...

3.) How come heritage druid gets sided out most of the time? Doesn't heritage druid power out the deck in terms of mana production or does heritage druid suffer post-board when the opponent unleashes a flurry of removal spells to make its ability quite unreliable? (I think I answered my own question lol) :laugh:

and finally....

4.) I've been running 1x Terastodon and it's been doing a lot of work lately. I've used Terastodon to slow down certain decks such as MUD and 12-Post (Yes... there are quite a number of rogue decks in our area so I find Terastodon valuable in a lot of situations). How come most, if not all, of the elves decks so far doesn't run a copy? Just wondering...:confused:

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Hi and welcome. Elves is great isn't it ;) Anyway, starting in order; I don't think I'd ever consider Sylvan Library, regardless of whether or not I had the 4th NO or not. What to substitute the 4th NO with is hard to say, you really could go any direction with it however if your looking to find something that actually helps simulate the effect it becomes more difficult. I can't say I have a good suggestion, maybe someone else can help here.

Worldspine Wurm is good in at least 1 primary situation I can think of, a meta full of SnT. I tested it and any time it came down vs SnT I'd win; however once the cats out of the bag their plan may not be to Show & Tell in their kill anymore. I'm on this kick lately on trying not to board cards that are only really effective in one MU. Others may state differently, and once again if you know that the meta your playing in is large and/or has lots of SnT, its a good choice. You stated you don't have much of SnT around, and have a lot of rouge decks, so no based on that information I don't think you need it. It is good against non-white decks (StpS) with good removal (Jund/Bug), but then again Progenitus is good against that stuff as well white decks. Cuneo did run it but look at the meta he played in, 250+ people and tons of SnT. In the last SCG on the 12th, Hayden Bedsole also played it, but once again a very large meta.

Terastodon is one of those cards that can be related to Regal Force. If you can cast NO for something, you may as well find Craterhoof because thats the card that wins you the game. In the times we don't have enough attacks on the board to go with Hoof, we have Progenitus. Progenitus can win in 2 turns whereas Terastodon will get chumped. Terastodon's ability is rarely more useful that what Hoof could provide. It could stop a combo or destroy a permanent thats affecting you, but we have other board cards for that which are IMO superior. If your finding this useful in your meta however, thats just fine, but I'd be interested to know what your sideboard is that can't handle what your having Terastodon take out.

Heritage Druid is the big mana maker, but is really the one of the worst 1 drops we have. That is because we need Elves to utilize it, whereas DRS, Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Mystic make mana without it, and Quirion & Wirewood can untap those and make more mana. Turn 1 - 2 it is more likely to do nothing, whereas the others do something. Don't get me wrong the potential is there to go off early with Druid, but the other 1 drops are just more consistent. Also remember that white decks have the potential to bring in Ethersworn Canonist, eliminating your glimpse combo and likely your need for Druid. We have evolved to a NO deck, and the need for druid has dropped slightly. If we were still heavily Glimpse based, we would likely prioritize it more.

Ok thanks. When I have time, I'll share my decklist. Originally, I ran a blue splash for 2x Swan Song but right now I'm sticking with just a black splash for sideboard options plus Deathrite Shaman. So far, I've been winning a number of small tournaments in our area with the deck. I've won against Zoo (I was surprised to see a turn-1 Wild Nacatl... haven't seen Zoo in years!), Pox (painful matchup jeez), D&T (very favorable matchup), Omnitell (I always cross my fingers in this matchup), BUG Delver, and Shardless BUG to name a few decks. Fortunately, no one really plays Storm so Ruric Thar hasn't been pulling its weight lately in my elves deck.

I'm happy to have invested in the correct legacy deck. I've played merfolk for two years before I decided to make another legacy deck from scratch and I remember starting Magic with the fascination of how Elves generate so much mana to power out large creatures or spells. I actually started competitive Magic by playing the GW-elves deck back in standard when Jund and Faeries were the top decks so the interactions were not that difficult to learn in the first place. :laugh:

I just hate the fact that the price of Gaea's Cradle is absurd. I'm fortunate that a couple of friends have lent me their spare copies of Gaea's cradle but in the long run, I guess the power level of Gaea's Cradle justifies its price right now. :frown:

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Originally Posted by Yanley

Ok thanks. When I have time, I'll share my decklist. Originally, I ran a blue splash for 2x Swan Song but right now I'm sticking with just a black splash for sideboard options plus Deathrite Shaman. So far, I've been winning a number of small tournaments in our area with the deck. I've won against Zoo (I was surprised to see a turn-1 Wild Nacatl... haven't seen Zoo in years!), Pox (painful matchup jeez), D&T (very favorable matchup), Omnitell (I always cross my fingers in this matchup), BUG Delver, and Shardless BUG to name a few decks. Fortunately, no one really plays Storm so Ruric Thar hasn't been pulling its weight lately in my elves deck.

I'm happy to have invested in the correct legacy deck. I've played merfolk for two years before I decided to make another legacy deck from scratch and I remember starting Magic with the fascination of how Elves generate so much mana to power out large creatures or spells. I actually started competitive Magic by playing the GW-elves deck back in standard when Jund and Faeries were the top decks so the interactions were not that difficult to learn in the first place. :laugh:

I just hate the fact that the price of Gaea's Cradle is absurd. I'm fortunate that a couple of friends have lent me their spare copies of Gaea's cradle but in the long run, I guess the power level of Gaea's Cradle justifies its price right now. :frown:

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Ya, 18 months ago Cradle was about $60. I do think its awkward that a land that is really only used in 1 deck is so expensive and comparable in price to dual lands. I'm surprised you find the Pox MU painful, I've always felt like Elves had the advantage most of the time; at least if we can play out our hand as quickly as possible so commence the beats anyway.

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Originally Posted by Yanley

1.) Is it viable to run 1-sylvan library in the sideboard? Most elves decks have a fourth natural order but I'm still looking for a 4th copy hence I'm thinking of substituting it for a sylvan library since I saw a prior list (Matt Nass?) that had a Sylvan Library in the sideboard.

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If you are looking for some kind of substitute for that 4th Natural Order, I would go for Ezuri Renegade Leader. Has a similar effect, can be GSZed and has the bonus effect of protecting your Elves.

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Originally Posted by venice

If you are looking for some kind of substitute for that 4th Natural Order, I would go for Ezuri Renegade Leader. Has a similar effect, can be GSZed and has the bonus effect of protecting your Elves.

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If you have big enough quantities of mana to do so. Which the current NO-build seems to lack from time to time between the Wastelands eating Cradles and the copious amount of counters/spotremoval/sweepers we face.

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Originally Posted by Yanley

Ok thanks. When I have time, I'll share my decklist. Originally, I ran a blue splash for 2x Swan Song but right now I'm sticking with just a black splash for sideboard options plus Deathrite Shaman. So far, I've been winning a number of small tournaments in our area with the deck. I've won against Zoo (I was surprised to see a turn-1 Wild Nacatl... haven't seen Zoo in years!), Pox (painful matchup jeez), D&T (very favorable matchup), Omnitell (I always cross my fingers in this matchup), BUG Delver, and Shardless BUG to name a few decks. Fortunately, no one really plays Storm so Ruric Thar hasn't been pulling its weight lately in my elves deck.

I'm happy to have invested in the correct legacy deck. I've played merfolk for two years before I decided to make another legacy deck from scratch and I remember starting Magic with the fascination of how Elves generate so much mana to power out large creatures or spells. I actually started competitive Magic by playing the GW-elves deck back in standard when Jund and Faeries were the top decks so the interactions were not that difficult to learn in the first place. :laugh:

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Started a year earlier than you, picked up Lark-Blink as my first real Magic deck. Creature-based combo decks have had me hooked ever since, so I guess I'd end up here too :P

Pox is a pain to play against, but from what experience I have vs. it, it's not actually that bad of a matchup. You just need to learn to navigate around that first chokehold of Smallpox. If you can get more on the field, it becomes a lot easier. I'm boarding in Swan Songs to stop the Smallpox - the win con in this matchup is Progenitus anyway, and their removal kills the bird. Swan Song also helps stop post-Prog Perishes and Toxic Deluges.