[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

I wouldn't ever drop the green splash. How is echoing truth better than abrupt decay again? On top of that, it really doesn't weaken the manabase much at all. The only difference is if you run trop MD or SB, and if you run trop sideboard with 2 islands maindeck, the manabase is actually strengthened as boarding in an additional land is actually useful against RUG even if it is just an island that can be wastelanded.

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Abrupt decay is much worse than Chain of Vapor, which is the card most people cut for it. If not chain, than slaughter pact, echoing truth, pyroclasm - there are a lot of more situational cards that are a lot better than decay, the only thing abrupt decay does better is kill Counterbalance (and I guess chalice on two, but not terribly relevant). If MUD is popular in your meta, keep decay, otherwise there are a lot of better options that don't require a splash.

With 3 basics, 2 gemstone, 3 duals, that puts you at 7 fetches. I'm much more comfortable at 8 or 9. You can run an additional land in the SB if you want, it doesn't need to be a trop. I generally run 16 land main and cut it in matches I don't need it, which is basically the same thing.

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Originally Posted by aaronm678

Abrupt decay is much worse than Chain of Vapor, which is the card most people cut for it. If not chain, than slaughter pact, echoing truth, pyroclasm - there are a lot of more situational cards that are a lot better than decay, the only thing abrupt decay does better is kill Counterbalance (and I guess chalice on two, but not terribly relevant). If MUD is popular in your meta, keep decay, otherwise there are a lot of better options that don't require a splash.

With 3 basics, 2 gemstone, 3 duals, that puts you at 7 fetches. I'm much more comfortable at 8 or 9. You can run an additional land in the SB if you want, it doesn't need to be a trop. I generally run 16 land main and cut it in matches I don't need it, which is basically the same thing.

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Chain of vapor is a lot worse against countermagic than abrupt decay. As for the 2 gemstones, I still don't get why those aren't 2 more fetchlands. In a 16 cantrip list no less, gemstone mine is only good in the graveyard if we have the combo assembled or when it gives exactsies via threshed cabal rit. First thing I'm doing to Prosak's list is -2 gemstone mine +2 some fetchlands to find the green source postboard if I need it. Gemstone mine is played best in 4-5 color decks like TES while in ANT we're really only two colors with tiny splashes for a 3rd and 4th color that we can find with fetchlands just as easily. Strengthening brainstorm and ponder is also something I'm not opposed to, which fetchlands improve greatly.

The only ways that decay is worse than CoV is when you actually use CoV as a storm engine to bounce all your artifacts to hand to get to 10 storm via 4 artifacts, CoV, 4 artifacts, tutor, tendrils.

Also, chalice on two is not relevant? Oh let's see, that infernal tutor I've been digging for the whole game is dead and that's my route to victory? You're right, chalice on two is not relevant at all against us. The reason abrupt decay is so good is it permanently removes the card from play so the opponent can't replay it if they get the chance. Card also kills rest in peace, which is quite relevant against us. There's a reason decay became a sideboard staple the moment it was released, it can deal with EVERYTHING except leylines and jace, which we don't want them to untap with anyways as we're generally losing at that point to their overwhelming countermagic backup. Cut the card if you want, you'll wish you had it when you face miracles or that stupid round 1 MUD player.

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Originally Posted by aaronm678

the only thing abrupt decay does better is kill Counterbalance

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And ignores Force of Will. And Spell Pierce. And Daze. And any other counterspells.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

And ignores Force of Will. And Spell Pierce. And Daze. And any other counterspells.

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...what permanents are you killing against decks with Force, Pierce, and Daze? The occasional Leyline out of Sneak and Show? Maybe, very rarely, a meddling mage out of U/W? The first can't be decayed anyway, and the second I've found to be pretty ineffective anyway (there isn't really anything to name that is overly crippling). It can be nice to bring like...one decay in against RUG sometimes, but not being able to do that isn't the end of the world.

And Decay is much worse in a lot of ways than Chain - 1 mana more is a lot against Thalia (one of the most common SB cards against us), and it doesn't hit Leyline (another fairly common SB card with discard decks becoming more popular).

I was saying Chalice isn't a very popular card, and the decks that play it usually don't play it on two until late game. If you expect MUD, decay is probably better...but it's not a great deck, and you're not terribly likely to face it.

As far as Rest in Piece - miracles is a matchup I think I'm just abandoning - I don't really like splashing a full color and taking 5 SB slots to bring one matchup from 10% to 20%, I think we can strengthen actual winnable matchups instead.

Abrupt Decay is pretty good... I haven't been running Gemstone Mines. Fetches have been plenty for me to find G.

Speaking of colors, is there a reason to run Badlands over Volcanic or to run Bayou vs Tropical?

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Speaking of colors, is there a reason to run Badlands over Volcanic or to run Bayou vs Tropical?

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Surgical Extraction / Extirpate?

I prefer two Volcanics to one Volcanic and one Badlands.
Blue is more important than black, in my opinion.

If you are in a good shape, you will win anyway. Petal and Mox also make black mana to go off from.
If you are in a bad shape, you need to cantrip yourself out of it. That requires blue mana, and preferably not from Petal or Mox.

Well today was a gpt trial in Zurich and i go there with my ANT list that i posted 1-2 pages before.
We was 34 player and i came with a friend that played BUG Agent.
Now my little report.

Match 1against URW Delver

g1:i have in hand enough rituals+ Leds and a tendril.But no tutor but i know hr have only 1 daze in hand and no other counter(he's on 18 life and i can only make 8 storm. i try to go off and have two lands open and try with a led and he play a the daze and here are my 9 storm:)
g2: i discard him a stifle and he have nothing and go off.
1-0-0

Match 2 against my friend with BUG agent.

g1: he doesnt have a hymn and i go off eas

g2: he have to.much disrupt and i draw ro.much lands and i fizzle on 1.life..

g3: i win it with PiF and a discarded thoughtseize and a 2 BoBs on the field.

2-0-0

Match 3 against elves combo

g1: i win easy a turn faster.

g2: discard him 2 glimpse with cabal therapy and he have no hate and i go off faster again.

Match 4 against reanimate but we drawet because he was sure that he wins one for top 8(he doesn't) and was hungry
good for me because reanimate is not the best match up..

3-0-1

Match 5 against goblins (Mono R)

g1:he have not a turn 1 lackey anyway i go off to fast and i win.

g2: He mull to 5 because he drawn nothing and no mindbreak trap and i have a lot times and i win, luck for.me.

4-0-1

Match 6 against Esper stoneblade

We draw.

4-0-2

So i was now second(2th) and became 7 gatecrash boosters.

Top 8

match 7 mirror ANT

g1:i disrupt him better than me and i win.
g2: the same.

Match 8 semi finals against the elves player.

g1: this time was the first time i didn't find a tutor with cantrips and was to.slow, but can go off with PiF+ a lot rituals nextt turn into a lot cantrips, then he fetch eot and i shuffle and he draw top deck Natural Order. shit happens

G2: this time have double mindbreal trap and 1 order+ the behemotj in hand and i play a duress and i have to discard he's NO because he can go off with it into regal force next turn. he have it next turn abd was to fast with a hardcast behemoth and beat me..

well shit happens but i by very happy with today and the Deck:DD

i hope you enjoy. Feel free

greets.from Switzerland

Pdingo

I'm not sure what the best way to host the storm worksheet that I've been working on is.

Here's a public link hosted through my Dropbox account, but not sure if that's the best way to go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ue3zlxave...rksheet.xlsx?m

Take a look and tell me if there's anything that's wrong, you'd like to see added, if it's useful, etc. And yeah, the formatting and highlighting is awful.

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Originally Posted by aaronm678

...what permanents are you killing against decks with Force, Pierce, and Daze? The occasional Leyline out of Sneak and Show? Maybe, very rarely, a meddling mage out of U/W? The first can't be decayed anyway, and the second I've found to be pretty ineffective anyway (there isn't really anything to name that is overly crippling). It can be nice to bring like...one decay in against RUG sometimes, but not being able to do that isn't the end of the world.

And Decay is much worse in a lot of ways than Chain - 1 mana more is a lot against Thalia (one of the most common SB cards against us), and it doesn't hit Leyline (another fairly common SB card with discard decks becoming more popular).

I was saying Chalice isn't a very popular card, and the decks that play it usually don't play it on two until late game. If you expect MUD, decay is probably better...but it's not a great deck, and you're not terribly likely to face it.

As far as Rest in Piece - miracles is a matchup I think I'm just abandoning - I don't really like splashing a full color and taking 5 SB slots to bring one matchup from 10% to 20%, I think we can strengthen actual winnable matchups instead.

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Ignore UW Countertop Miracles? Pretty hard considering the deck is tier 1, good luck with that.

I playtested some against UW Miracles preboard tonight without counterbalance maindeck but tops, cliques, no SFMs, snapcasters, snares, pierces, FoWs, and counterspells. I think I dropped 2 games out of something like 6 or more, granted he didn't have counterbalance maindeck. But I feel the matchup is quite winnable with my list, which is 15 cantrips with an extra duress over the 4th preordain, which helped out a lot against UW. We didn't play postboard games, which would have admittedly been a struggle with his sideboard of 4 flusterstorm, 4 CB, 2 Surgical Extraction, and some other 1 of I can't think of right now that may or may not be in his sideboard. Going to rock this build tomorrow at a 30ish person event:

Lands 15
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Ritual Effects 16
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Cantrips 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain

Business 7
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

Protection 7
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

Sideboard 15
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Confidant
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

Wait, so you're saying that you're advantaged against a bad UW list? Storm punishes bad deckbuilding? That's shocking.

It's as hard to find a good UW/Miracles player as it is to find a competent storm player. Playtesting against inferior opponents is really not useful. The only reason I've beat good UW miracles players is being faster than they can get disruption online preboard, and postboard is all about drawing Abrupt Decay.

After losing to MUD twice in the GP Utrecht side event, I lost to mono white deck with chalices, thalia & spheres in the QF of a GPT today (went undefeated in the swiss versus Esper Blade, Omnitell, Painter and IDs versus Dragon Stompy + Zoo). There were also mono-red painter, dragon stompy and chalice tezzeret decks in the top-8. I'm getting a little sick of chalice decks, but I guess I'll have to play more hate for it at the GP.
I played the UB list with PiF (1 Grim Tutor, 7 Discard, 2 Preordain, 15 Lands) and green in the board. It was pretty solid all day.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Wait, so you're saying that you're advantaged against a bad UW list? Storm punishes bad deckbuilding? That's shocking.

It's as hard to find a good UW/Miracles player as it is to find a competent storm player. Playtesting against inferior opponents is really not useful. The only reason I've beat good UW miracles players is being faster than they can get disruption online preboard, and postboard is all about drawing Abrupt Decay.

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The list still had a lot of countermagic in it. Most UW lists don't even run spell pierce, which is pretty annoying to play against. And sensei's divining top is still really good against a storm deck without chant effects it turns out. Sure, it isn't the norm, but the opponent I tested against isn't a bad player at all. Heck, it was the list of a magic player I respect a lot (CuthberttheCat on here.) I'm confident that postboard it would be a good matchup even after counterbalance and flusterstorm because of the bobs, carpets, and abrupt decays in my sideboard. Sure, no counterbalance game 1 gives us probably a 5% percentage boost in a hundred games, maybe 10%. But games 2 and 3 will still be giant grindfests in all likelihood.

Went 3-2 today at a 36 person tournament. Lost to Sneak and Show round 1 (didn't know what he was on game 1, I cantripped over duress. Turn 2 griselbrand on the play is unbeatable it turns out, especially when I missed on a black source for multiple turns despite my cantrip.) Game 2 when I probed him he just had a handful of not combo cards outside sneak attack but no fatty. He drew emrakul and show and tell off the top with no library manipulation and I died to the spaghetti monster. Won the next 3 rounds against esperblade, UR trinket delver naught, and lands. Lost the last round against junk/rock/dark horizons/you pick a name with leyline of sanctity in the board as a 4 of most likely as he saw it both postboard games. Won game 1 with ease. Games 2 and 3, he got gaddock teeg x2 in game 2 after I decayed the first one he zenithed for another one (thought it was pretty strange that he had 2 teeg's in his 75, most zenith based decks run just 1.) Still almost won game 2, but combo'ing off through double deathrite was exceedingly difficult after he ate my lone tutor when I resolved IGG (didn't have the PiF left in the deck since he had zero counterspells so I switched the 2.) Game 3, I drew all 4 infernal tutors with an active bob and fizzled with ad nauseam from 14, then again I had 1 CoV left in the deck and just 1 IGG to recur the one in the yard to get past his leyline of sanctity. Didn't find anything before he killed both my bobs with golgari charm of all things then hit me for exactsies with a goyf that I was planning to chump. The 2 lone bounce spells definitely hurt in the leyline matchup, but leyline isn't exactly common. Overall I felt quite pleased with the deck, would run it again, but would probably run more bounce over carpets, which I boarded in just once the entire day against stoneblade but they never showed up. More bounce would have been useful, and maybe the 4th duress.

I'm Looking to build ANT shortly. What does the ideal list look like right now?

Full 75 please

Thanks

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Originally Posted by JamieW89

After losing to MUD twice in the GP Utrecht side event, I lost to mono white deck with chalices, thalia & spheres in the QF of a GPT today (went undefeated in the swiss versus Esper Blade, Omnitell, Painter and IDs versus Dragon Stompy + Zoo). There were also mono-red painter, dragon stompy and chalice tezzeret decks in the top-8. I'm getting a little sick of chalice decks, but I guess I'll have to play more hate for it at the GP.
I played the UB list with PiF (1 Grim Tutor, 7 Discard, 2 Preordain, 15 Lands) and green in the board. It was pretty solid all day.

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Eh I feel your pain I play in a store in my area infested with like 4 guys that play MUD fanatically. I have resorted to good old Naturalize out of the SB as a 2 of it cures those Lodestone Woes and it is nice to have a permanent out to Leyline of Sanctity (also annoyingly popular). Sure people will laugh and snicker but it is very versatile and I don't care what anyone says it is good.

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Originally Posted by beebles

Eh I feel your pain I play in a store in my area infested with like 4 guys that play MUD fanatically. I have resorted to good old Naturalize out of the SB as a 2 of it cures those Lodestone Woes and it is nice to have a permanent out to Leyline of Sanctity (also annoyingly popular). Sure people will laugh and snicker but it is very versatile and I don't care what anyone says it is good.

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Disenchant does sound much better than being a turn faster and having Burning Wish access to Hull Breech in addition to Abrupt Decay.

I play the burning wish version, and my LGS has a lot of people playing MUD and affinity. I have one meltdown in the board, it's awesome. Kills chalice, all artifact lands, things like tormods crypt. And with burning wish you can have it in G1, which is great if they resolve a chalice G1T1.

I realize it might not be the best sideboard option for a big tournament, but in my local meta it is great.

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Originally Posted by PartyMonster

I'm Looking to build ANT shortly. What does the ideal list look like right now?

Full 75 please

Thanks

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Funny guy. Ideal list? There is no ideal list.
Some say Wish ANT is optimal.
Some say 1-2 Grim Tutor is optimal.
Some say 16 cantrip ANT is optimal.

You'll have to build something yourself out of:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-4 Preordain

4 Infernal Tutor
0-3 Burning Wish
0-2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
0-2 Chrome Mox

2-4 Duress
2-4 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1-2 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
0-1 Badlands
1-2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4-6 other U/B fetch lands

Side:
0-2 Karakas (edited in, forgot about that option)
2-3 Chain of Vapor
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-3 Xantid Swarm
0-3 Carpet of Flowers
0-1 Tropical Island
0-2 Additional discard spells
0-3 Additional kill spells (Tendrils, Empty the Warrens)
0-2 Additional enigine spells (Iggy or so)
0-7 Wish Board spells. Options:
- Tendrils
- Empty the Warrens
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Past in Flames
- Reforge the Soul
- Diminishing Returns (bad with Cabal Ritual though)
- Grim Tutor
- Grapeshot
- Death Mark
- Pyroclasm
- Shattering Spree or other removal

Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PartyMonster

I'm Looking to build ANT shortly. What does the ideal list look like right now?

Full 75 please

Thanks

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I have a link to an excel spreadsheet with some data in my signature. There's decklists for each build of storm combo that has top8'd recently and some summaries of their descriptive statistics.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Funny guy. Ideal list? There is no ideal list.
Some say Wish ANT is optimal.
Some say 1-2 Grim Tutor is optimal.
Some say 16 cantrip ANT is optimal.

You'll have to build something yourself out of:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-4 Preordain

4 Infernal Tutor
0-3 Burning Wish
0-2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
0-2 Chrome Mox

2-4 Duress
2-4 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1-2 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
0-1 Badlands
1-2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4-6 other U/B fetch lands

Side:
2-3 Chain of Vapor
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-3 Xantid Swarm
0-3 Carpet of Flowers
0-1 Tropical Island
0-2 Additional discard spells
0-3 Additional kill spells (Tendrils, Empty the Warrens)
0-2 Additional enigine spells (Iggy or so)
0-7 Wish Board spells. Options:
- Tendrils
- Empty the Warrens
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Past in Flames
- Reforge the Soul
- Diminishing Returns (bad with Cabal Ritual though)
- Grim Tutor
- Grapeshot
- Death Mark
- Pyroclasm
- Shattering Spree or other removal

Good luck!

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You forgot karakas for the board :)

but great breakdown.

edit: nice spreadsheet too, going to make some modifications for the build i use to see some things but sweet!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Funny guy. Ideal list? There is no ideal list.
Some say Wish ANT is optimal.
Some say 1-2 Grim Tutor is optimal.
Some say 16 cantrip ANT is optimal.

You'll have to build something yourself out of:

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
0-4 Preordain

4 Infernal Tutor
0-3 Burning Wish
0-2 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
0-2 Chrome Mox

2-4 Duress
2-4 Cabal Therapy

2 Underground Sea
1-2 Volcanic Island
0-1 Tropical Island
0-1 Badlands
1-2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4-6 other U/B fetch lands

Side:
2-3 Chain of Vapor
3-4 Abrupt Decay
0-3 Xantid Swarm
0-3 Carpet of Flowers
0-1 Tropical Island
0-2 Additional discard spells
0-3 Additional kill spells (Tendrils, Empty the Warrens)
0-2 Additional enigine spells (Iggy or so)
0-7 Wish Board spells. Options:
- Tendrils
- Empty the Warrens
- Ill-Gotten Gains
- Past in Flames
- Reforge the Soul
- Diminishing Returns (bad with Cabal Ritual though)
- Grim Tutor
- Grapeshot
- Death Mark
- Pyroclasm
- Shattering Spree or other removal

Good luck!

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Very nice breakdown, maybe it is time we can make a good Primer where above list is a very good starting point.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

I have a link to an excel spreadsheet with some data in my signature. There's decklists for each build of storm combo that has top8'd recently and some summaries of their descriptive statistics.

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Nice sheet, it gives a very nice overview of the different builds, thanks.

Added Karakas to the optional sideboard cards.
I'd only consider them if I also play white for Chant effects, but some play them.

Pehaps good to mention the rough numbers for types of cards:
- Lands: 14-16
- Protection: 6-7
- Cantrips: 12-16
- Business: 7-10
- Accelleration: 16-18
More cantrips usually means less of the rest (except for lands, because cantrips need lands).

To whom mnay interest:

I think this is the most optimal list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493

As said, Timo is ritgh about strategies on how to side, Base and Side,

You all just need to agree with his conclusions.

The other list, Grim Tutor and No B.Wish is the other ANT build which is also another good approach.

I just wanted to say I tested that Timo List and as Timo said, is simply broken.

Options:
0/1 Moxen instead 14/15 Lands.
No other changes should be made to the List.

A point, Therapy is in conjuntion with LED and I.T. is one of the bests cards in the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

To whom mnay interest:

I think this is the most optimal list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493

As said, Timo is ritgh about strategies on how to side, Base and Side,

You all just need to agree with his conclusions.

The other list, Grim Tutor and No B.Wish is the other ANT build which is also another good approach.

I just wanted to say I tested that Timo List and as Timo said, is simply broken.

Options:
0/1 Moxen instead 14/15 Lands.
No other changes should be made to the List.

A point, Therapy is in conjuntion with LED and I.T. is one of the bests cards in the deck.

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Burning wish sucks. No idea why people try to shove that card into a deck with zero chrome mox, since as a business spell it is incredibly clunky and it's even worse when you don't have rite of flame but instead have just dark ritual and cabal ritual as acceleration. Using petal to wish a turn early is not remotely good barring corner cases, as you don't want to -1 card in hand to fire wish off a turn earlier to make it less clunky. If you want to play wish so badly, play TES. That and doomsday are the only storm decks in legacy that should be running the card along with SITES (red spanish inquisition.) I've played with Timo's storm list that he won Ghent with with a slightly different protection suite namely no IoK's but instead more duress and shelved it due to how bad wish is in the deck. Running more cantrips over wish makes us more resilient to wasteland, I still find the pieces I need on time, and I don't have to weaken the manabase to include wish. As for 'needing to agree' with his conclusions, I don't have to one bit. Wish is donkey-ass in ANT. Adam Prosak just top 8'ed the invitational with 16 cantrip ANT today and had a very good run with ANT, going 7-1 or 8-0 with it in the legacy portion despite everyone expecting to face combo at the invitational today due to TES and ANT winning opens back to back in the past 2 weeks.

@ Burning Wish
Dark ritual you are right i tested BW a lot and have to say it isn't good
bader AD Nauseam and les cantrips...
The only positive thing is BW allowed you more missplay.into empty the warrens or maybe cabal therapy.

16 cantrips is the right thing.;)


Play today again with my ANT list in a legacy turnier.

Where is this sideboard guide from Timo? I looked back and couldn't find it. In advance, thanks.

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Originally Posted by nodahero

Where is this sideboard guide from Timo? I looked back and couldn't find it. In advance, thanks.

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Its here on eternal central.

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3216

Today i was bad in a turnier with 5 rounds with UBr(PiF) .The last two turnier i was first and second with this list but today
was only shitty..1-4 after 5 rounds but well was not my day shit happens.
The next turnier i play is the GP strassbourg.
I wll probably play ANT. ;)

So from what I read on your Burning Wish isn't good... but yet Timo runs three in his list. Is the consensus that Wish isn't good enough?

There are two camps. ANT with Burning Wish (sometimes known as TNT) and ANT with sixteen cantrips (or Grim Tutor). I would not say there is a consensus about Burning Wish.

I would say it depends if you consider Burning Wish -> EtW strong in your meta or if you fear Surgical Extraction (Infernal, Tendrils) and/or Massive GY Removal (Leyline, DRS, RIP) out of Sideboards.

I don't think Wishes pair well with the nature of this particular storm playtype and Cabal Rituals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

Today i was bad in a turnier with 5 rounds with UBr(PiF) .The last two turnier i was first and second with this list but today
was only shitty..1-4 after 5 rounds but well was not my day shit happens.
The next turnier i play is the GP strassbourg.
I wll probably play ANT. ;)

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Would you enlight is about the issues, werter Eidgenosse? :)

Edit: P.S.: it's tournament ;)

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Burning wish sucks. No idea why people try to shove that card into a deck with zero chrome mox, since as a business spell it is incredibly clunky and it's even worse when you don't have rite of flame but instead have just dark ritual and cabal ritual as acceleration. Using petal to wish a turn early is not remotely good barring corner cases, as you don't want to -1 card in hand to fire wish off a turn earlier to make it less clunky. If you want to play wish so badly, play TES. That and doomsday are the only storm decks in legacy that should be running the card along with SITES (red spanish inquisition.) I've played with Timo's storm list that he won Ghent with with a slightly different protection suite namely no IoK's but instead more duress and shelved it due to how bad wish is in the deck. Running more cantrips over wish makes us more resilient to wasteland, I still find the pieces I need on time, and I don't have to weaken the manabase to include wish. As for 'needing to agree' with his conclusions, I don't have to one bit. Wish is donkey-ass in ANT. Adam Prosak just top 8'ed the invitational with 16 cantrip ANT today and had a very good run with ANT, going 7-1 or 8-0 with it in the legacy portion despite everyone expecting to face combo at the invitational today due to TES and ANT winning opens back to back in the past 2 weeks.

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Burning Wish does not suck in Combo with LED and D.Rituals.
Not Playing Chrome Moxen does not mean you can not play B.Wish.
Not Playing RoF does not mean you can not play B.Wish. Even I can say that Cabal Ritual is much stronger than RoF, and if you extrapolate D.Returns in TES to Time Spiral in here, T.Spiral as Business Spell is great with 4 LAnds in play.
The problem with Straigth UB ANT builds that you do not have the Parity Wish gives: It is a +3 from Side for second and third games, It is a +1 In Dusruption, It is a +1 as 'Clunky' business, etc.
I would play the 15 Lands UB Build with 1 Preordain 2 Grim Tutor, 7 Disruption List, But I would find matches that I will loose because of a Detahrite removing my Tendrils, or Teeg lands or Thalia, etc. the percentage of loosing first and 2nd games is much greater with Straigth UB Lists.
The list with B.W. runs 8 Fetches 3 basics. No fear to Wasteland.

@ Lemnear

Haha sry for my bad english, i mean tournament;)

yes i win the first match against

Death and Taxes
2-0 but he makes a lot mistakes^^
Lose against a BWu Delver hymn fish ? lol but that was the only big mistake in the turnier i shuffle my library and because the new sleeves the library(2cards)fall down on the hand(Lolol)and i put 3 cards and release it to late.(was the DR i needed to off, epic fail, that shit should not happen..)
g2 i dont find anything for discard hate..(confis)
Match 3 against the RUG delver(was a really good game) ok i mean i lose against to good topdecks.
play around dazes and pierce and he play them and i want that he play those to make the storm count higher and tendrils in hand win;)
g2 i discard him a FoW i think then have still a therapy, tutor, 2 CBRit and BS+ fetch and i know he have a pyroblast in hand and a snare. i play it next turn and i think i say because the mana was not enough for a tutor into AD and say blast that i can play the BS.then i discard it and topdeck a snare NR.2? ok cool can still discard them.
then he have not really a clock and i have all+Carpet of flowers and can go off he had only a card that i not know( No snare in hand i discard him the snares) but no he topdecks FoW again with no played cantrip from him in this game..
g3 Mulligan to 6 but he have to much..but a good game;)
Match 4 against a friend with elves.
g1 have a good hand with disard and cantrips but dont draw anything and i mean anything and was to slow..
g2 take mulligan to 6 and have a keepable hand with cantrips and discard again. But he play a Teeg and i dont find any shitty hate..with cantrips.
match 5 against Uwr Miracle
i think after the board its 60/40 for us. But i was a little bit pissed^^ and was now not really by the match..
G1 i win easy
G2 discard a CB but he have to much counter
G3 The same/ have to say play bad to..

shit happens..

But i can say the Deck peform very well i mean (The 3 last legacy Turnier in Switzerland i becam (First, Second/Semi Finals and yes and today only bad..^^)

So ich hoffe das waren genug Infos für dich Lemnear;)

@Burning Wish

Why i should play BW without a Chrome mox? Then your AD is bader then with Mox.
lemnear means Cabal ritual have not a lot synergie with BW because you have only bbbbb and not rr(like with rite of flame), and you have a lot the situation that you can only make tendrils for x but no kill and not ETW because you haven't the needed r in the mana pool.
Ok with BW you can search pyroclasm for hatebears in g1 but i think when you use only discard and can't discard him a hatebear in g1 and cant win you make something wrong.Sometimes you lose against hatebears in g1 but then you win g2 and 3;)
i mean today i win and my oppenent have still a thalia in play;)

More than enough info, thanks my friend.

@Wish: the double red mana from Rite of Flame make a difference for the EtW, Shattering Spree or Grapeshot (Teeg, Thalia, Cannonist) out of the Sideboard. Cabal Ritual isn't much of a help unless you Need the mana for the taxing effect of the named hatebears. Wish can work for ANT on a pure defensive use to grab Silver bullets or fight Extraction effects but still needs 2 initial red mana sources to unlock it's full potential (either PIF->BW->Tendrils or BW->EtW/Spree/Grapeshot/etc.) which can be a pain in the ass postboard then you may need tropicals for Decays

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Burning Wish does not suck in Combo with LED and D.Rituals.
Not Playing Chrome Moxen does not mean you can not play B.Wish.
Not Playing RoF does not mean you can not play B.Wish. Even I can say that Cabal Ritual is much stronger than RoF, and if you extrapolate D.Returns in TES to Time Spiral in here, T.Spiral as Business Spell is great with 4 LAnds in play.
The problem with Straigth UB ANT builds that you do not have the Parity Wish gives: It is a +3 from Side for second and third games, It is a +1 In Dusruption, It is a +1 as 'Clunky' business, etc.
I would play the 15 Lands UB Build with 1 Preordain 2 Grim Tutor, 7 Disruption List, But I would find matches that I will loose because of a Detahrite removing my Tendrils, or Teeg lands or Thalia, etc. the percentage of loosing first and 2nd games is much greater with Straigth UB Lists.
The list with B.W. runs 8 Fetches 3 basics. No fear to Wasteland.

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...To play wish as a setup spell it requires you to get a nonbasic, or are you advocating playing a mountain? Because I'd rather die than play a mountain in storm combo right now. If you don't use wish as a setup spell, it typically requires 11 mana to combo via wish -> grim tutor -> past in flames in order to get a guaranteed kill. Or it requires 8 mana to go wish into time spiral. The card is clunky as fuck in ANT, no chrome mox makes the card a lot worse. And if you want to play 3 chrome mox, play TES, not ANT. Sure the manabase is worse, but that's the tradeoff of wish. That and drawing chrome mox in any storm opener usually makes me cringe. Drawing 2 is the nutlow as without a brainstorm those 2 cards will slow you down considerably as 2 cards to make 1 mana is actually very fair it turns out.

Also, why should I listen to you ever? You're the guy that basically spammed the TES list for months suggesting bullshit cards like grim tutor, no gitaxian probe, and other really stupid cards to try to 'improve' the deck. My respect for you as a storm player is the lowest it could actually go right now when you keep saying all this nonsense like wish being good in ANT and grim tutor being good in TES while gitaxian probe is supposedly 'bad' in TES when gitaxian probe is probably the best card storm has gotten from new sets in years, and yes I think it's better than PiF in storm combo. There's almost no reason to not run 4 of the card in any storm list outside spanish inquisition. The card is ridiculously powerful in storm combo.

do people have arguments for splits on disruption?

I currently play 4 therapy 3 duress but would like to hear counter arguments for the opposite.

also have you guys found carpet that good? i kind of hate it unless i expect a ton of RUG and even then it is meh, since they can operate off of two lands very easily.

edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Also, why should I listen to you ever? You're the guy that basically spammed the TES list for months suggesting bullshit cards like grim tutor, no gitaxian probe, and other really stupid cards to try to 'improve' the deck. My respect for you as a storm player is the lowest it could actually go right now when you keep saying all this nonsense like wish being good in ANT and grim tutor being good in TES while gitaxian probe is supposedly 'bad' in TES when gitaxian probe is probably the best card storm has gotten from new sets in years, and yes I think it's better than PiF in storm combo. There's almost no reason to not run 4 of the card in any storm list outside spanish inquisition. The card is ridiculously powerful in storm combo.

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I didn't want to say that but I'm the person who won that tournament making a 9-1 and only loosing to the boy I won in the finals.
I beat all form of Blue decks in that tournament.
I tested Grim in TES and it is bad, I just reach my own conclusions.
In my zone I'm considered the best OR unique storm player.
There is no much Top 8 listed as the small torunaments I play are not listed in mtg.
I do not intend to gain your respect or any respect, as I said at first, 'To whom may interest'.
Yes, I will take TES again and will play the Gitaxian List, that was a particular goal for me, it is more like: Gitaxian is for boys which don't understand the soul of statistics concept, but I agree that Gitaxian makes the opponent a Non Poker Player for you. So I Agree Gitaxian makes better the Storm Decks.
I also Top eitghted some tournaments with DDFT and TES. I can say for me it is more difficult to play TES than DDFT OR ANT.

Peace please, I'm in your side Storm neighbour. Even Maybe you're a programmer also...

Related to this:
edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.

I recognize my personality is a little irritating, but please stop saying things like this, I proposed the Revoke Existence/Hullbreach Slot in TES...
I consider you simply a normal person with normal thoughts, I mean, nothing to have in mind.
Again, we are in the same board...

Related to Disruption package question:
I always play 4 therapy as a Must, it is too good to not to play 4, I prefer 3 duress vs 2 duress 1 Inquistion, 2 in side have been enough for me, and Duress has much more range of action than inquistion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

do people have arguments for splits on disruption?

I currently play 4 therapy 3 duress but would like to hear counter arguments for the opposite.

also have you guys found carpet that good? i kind of hate it unless i expect a ton of RUG and even then it is meh, since they can operate off of two lands very easily.

edit: I currently treat pelikuando as a troll and ignore him. i find nothing he says constructive or worth my time, consistently begging for information and then denying it and suggesting garbage ideas which have been worked out prior.

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I max out Cabal Therapy because I always name the right card. :cool:

i used to play only tnt, now im goldfishing with prozak's list -1 preordain +1 grim tutor. I like the list (idk if grim tutor is good, but it's another tutor), but i feel a little strange without the solutions that bw gives MD (things like pyroclasm or etw for example), what are your thoughts? i like the grim MD over preordain

@ Grim Tutor

I don't Like it. Bader ad nauseam(Means 2 dmg more than a cantrip and 3 life loss when you played it) and PiF to.
In a Start Hand its a clunky card..
I mean its only a card but this cantrip make the deck more consistant.
Very rarely you don't find a tutor with 16 cantrips but then you can still find AD or PiF maybe Tendrils.

@Thomas Dowd
I have not been very impressed with Carpet of Flowers. It is too easy to play around for the decks where it is best. Usually daze decks. The last time I played it it resolved twice during the tournament and activated for one mana one time.
What do you think about ignorant bliss vs. dark confidant. Does anyone ever side in ignorant bliss against non-hymn discard decks?