Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apistat_commander
It seems like most of the BUG lists that did well at the invitational were much closer to the control end of the spectrum.
Yes, Pros love their playset of Jaces.
It seems like most of the BUG decks in the invitational were running around 22-23 lands.
The lack of Force of Will is interesting.
I don't understand Reid Duke's list. First, I would like a Sylvan Library. Second, why run 3 FOW in the board? You've got 11 blue cards in your main deck. You don't have enough blue cards to support FOW, especially considering that you should cut Jace in matches where you would bring in FOW.
This should probably go in the BUG mid-range/control thread...
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Demonic_Attorney
Extirpate is your answer to Lingering Souls. Why did Hatfield lose in the top eight to Dredge recently? In short, by not having Extirpate and/ or Surgical Extraction in his sideboard. Shaman doesn’t answer Bridge from Below and taking out a RUG player's Tropical Island early auto wins the RUG matchup.
Surgical is a fine answer to Lingering Souls, but you should never sideboard it in versus RUG Delver. It's basically an attrition war where every single card counts. To sideboard in a useless card (unless you lucksack) will hurt you more than it will give you an advantage.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
I would take some of the card choices from the SCG Invitational BUG deck lists with a grain of salt. Those players geared their 75 for an expected metagame and it paid off. Against a more random field full of jank, miscellaneous aggro and combo, I think a playset of Daze and Force of Will is a completely reasonable choice.
I'd also note that TA has been having positive results for me against BUG midrange/control. Since they are mostly relying on 1-for-1 removal, eventually you can run them out of answers and win through attrition. The only major problem would be if they resolved an early planeswalker.
If BUG midrange really takes off, I think it could be a good idea to move Cliques to the main. I'd also consider looking into some sort of recursive or hard-to-kill threat...
One idea, janky as hell: Obstinate Baloth. Aside from being countered, this guy can give BUG issues. Cast it free via Hymn/Lili, 'protection' from Abrupt Decay, and Jace bouncing it isn't as profitable since you still gain life.
Thrun is still good, unfortunately edict effects still hit him. I would suggest Bitterblossom if it weren't for Decay. Or you can just overload on threats like Ooze as Goyf #5-6
More Sylvan Libraries are an option, as is Compost.
Garruk Relentless may be an option.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
I'd also note that TA has been having positive results for me against BUG midrange/control. Since they are mostly relying on 1-for-1 removal, eventually you can run them out of answers and win through attrition. The only major problem would be if they resolved an early planeswalker.
I think your results were based on variance/skill advantage. I feel to be a favourite over BUG delver with my midrange list. FInd it certainly to be easier than Canadian. Also following the logic of winning an attrition war, the midrange deck naturally has a favour. They rely on 1 on 1 removal and gain card advantage with the different tools snapcaster, jace, baleful strix. The big trump that tempo has is tombstalker which basically has protection from everything except planeswalkers & baleful strix.
... but I am happy to test with you in cockatrice/mws so we can explore the (archetype mirror) a bit.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
The Team america deck that won SCG
How do you guys feel about 4 hymns instead of 4 targeted discard?
How do you feel about the sylvan library when you have 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms already?
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Avatar of Shadow
The Team america deck that won SCG
How do you guys feel about 4 hymns instead of 4 targeted discard?
How do you feel about the sylvan library when you have 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms already?
I feel that this all sounds great.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nitewolf9
I feel that this all sounds great.
So you prefer the hymn instead of the targeted discard.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
I think your results were based on variance/skill advantage. I feel to be a favourite over BUG delver with my midrange list. FInd it certainly to be easier than Canadian. Also following the logic of winning an attrition war, the midrange deck naturally has a favour. They rely on 1 on 1 removal and gain card advantage with the different tools snapcaster, jace, baleful strix. The big trump that tempo has is tombstalker which basically has protection from everything except planeswalkers & baleful strix.
... but I am happy to test with you in cockatrice/mws so we can explore the (archetype mirror) a bit.
I would test this evening if I weren't traveling for work (current city: Knoxville, TN). But perhaps tomorrow.
There's a lot to consider with the BUG mirrors, mainly due to card choice variations. Are they running Confidants? Snapcasters? Did they drop FoW in favor of more discard? Are they running Hymn and/or just targeted removal?
I would consider builds running Shardless Agent/Ancestral Visions to be a different archetype altogether.
In the SB games, I have obviously brought in Jaces and a few other cards, generally cutting FoW and usually Daze (unless on the play) to gear towards being a more midrange deck. However, I do bring in the 2 Cliques and 1 Ooze, bringing my total creature count up to 17. This actually tends to be enough to overload BUG, and save for something unusual like a turn 2 Liliana I can overwhelm their deck with the constant stream of threats (there is no fear of Terminus, Perish, or Pernicious Deed currently, so I see no reason to not play out like an all-in aggro deck). I also tend to win the 'topdeck war' since I'm running a full playset of Ponder/Brainstorm, whereas BUG can sometimes just get screwed into drawing 3 lands in a row or stumble into late-game discard. That's the main advantage TA tends to have, in addition to being capable of operating on a lower curve (Wasteland is still a powerful card here).
Not to sound too conceited, but as you said it probably is partly thanks to skill and familiarity. I've been playing with the archetype for several years now, whereas I imagine some people are just netdecking the latest SCG list without much practice.
edit: As the meta adapts to BUG, I think Team America builds will have an easier time fending off the backlash. For example, Burn and UR Delver are by no means an easy matchup, but it's far easier for a deck that plays Tombstalker, Daze and Hymn to Tourach to beat such a deck than the deck that's playing maindeck Thoughtseize and Jace TMS.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Avatar of Shadow
So you prefer the hymn instead of the targeted discard.
I've been back and forth between the two and have settled with Hymn. It really is just the more powerful card for this deck, and 'Hymn Hymn I win' is as true now as it always was.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
I've been back and forth between the two and have settled with Hymn. It really is just the more powerful card for this deck, and 'Hymn Hymn I win' is as true now as it always was.
I think Hymn can be better off in the board as a 3 of. Take out the spell pierces and use hymns instead. Targeted discard is much more useful against sneak attack decks.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Hymn fits very well with Deathrite/Delver/Daze.
Daze offers early protection, either for Deathrite or Delver or to push through a Hymn.
Especially on the play, a hand with Deathrite/Fetch/Daze/Hymn or Deathrite/Fetch/Land/Brainstorm just create so many powerful plays. If you can get your Deathrite into play on turn 1 and you have a Daze in hand, you have the following awesome scenarios.
1) They try to remove your Deathrite, you counter with Daze. On turn 2, you target them with Hymn - they can either FOW (pitching a card), or lose 2 cards, some of which could be land.
2) They let your Deathrite live. You move to turn 2, you target them with Hymn, no matter what they do, they are losing 2 cards, possibly more (baring some crazy Divert action).
Daze is necessary to protect our 3 most important early threats - Deathrite, Delver, and Hymn. In combination, a turn 1 creature and a turn 2 Hymn can give you a huge advantage (especially if you Hymn well.)
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water_Wizard
Hymn fits very well with Deathrite/Delver/Daze.
Daze offers early protection, either for Deathrite or Delver or to push through a Hymn.
Especially on the play, a hand with Deathrite/Fetch/Daze/Hymn or Deathrite/Fetch/Land/Brainstorm just create so many powerful plays. If you can get your Deathrite into play on turn 1 and you have a Daze in hand, you have the following awesome scenarios.
1) They try to remove your Deathrite, you counter with Daze. On turn 2, you target them with Hymn - they can either FOW (pitching a card), or lose 2 cards, some of which could be land.
2) They let your Deathrite live. You move to turn 2, you target them with Hymn, no matter what they do, they are losing 2 cards, possibly more (baring some crazy Divert action).
Daze is necessary to protect our 3 most important early threats - Deathrite, Delver, and Hymn. In combination, a turn 1 creature and a turn 2 Hymn can give you a huge advantage (especially if you Hymn well.)
been getting smoked by non-basic hate.
i think i'm going to drop the underground sea to 3 and drop a fetch land for a island.
so the mana looks like this
4 wasteland
1 swamp
1 island
2 bayou
1 tropical
2 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
3 underground sea
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
What non-basic hate are you losing to? Choke and Blood Moon are hardly the problem they used to be thanks to Decay and Shaman, not to mention the decks that run Blood Moon effects are bad anyways. Price of Progress? Well Burn has always been a bad matchup. Wasteland -- sometimes that card just wins games, after all, that's why we play it. Luckily, we operate on a pretty low curve to begin with.
A basic island is actually going to end up mana screwing you more than just running all duals. The whole point of the mana base is to be able to consistently cast Hymn to Tourach on the second turn if at all possible.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
What non-basic hate are you losing to? Choke and Blood Moon are hardly the problem they used to be thanks to Decay and Shaman, not to mention the decks that run Blood Moon effects are bad anyways. Price of Progress? Well Burn has always been a bad matchup. Wasteland -- sometimes that card just wins games, after all, that's why we play it. Luckily, we operate on a pretty low curve to begin with.
A basic island is actually going to end up mana screwing you more than just running all duals. The whole point of the mana base is to be able to consistently cast Hymn to Tourach on the second turn if at all possible.
stifle waste stifle waste kicked my ass big time. couldn't get more than 1 land out.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Avatar of Shadow
stifle waste stifle waste kicked my ass big time. couldn't get more than 1 land out.
Yeah, but that's just gonna happen.
No need to over-react.
It's important to know when to chalk things up to variance.
If your opponent just has amazing hands and amazing game situations, then that isn't a flaw with the deck, that is variance. Sometimes I lose 4-5 matches in a row due to variance (either my opponent's amazing draws or my poor draws.) Likewise, sometimes I win games that I have no business winning because of variance.
What matters in the end is your play ability, your familiarity with the deck, and your deck choice for a given tournament- those are the things you have control over - not who your are paired against, not what decks you play against, not how your opponent draws, and not how you draw.
A vast majority of the decks in the format are going to lose to Stifle, Waste, Stifle, Waste, and that includes everything from UW Miracles (running 8 basics) to Elves. A few bad games doesn't mean that you should go tweaking the deck sub-optimally.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water_Wizard
Yeah, but that's just gonna happen.
No need to over-react.
It's important to know when to chalk things up to variance.
If your opponent just has amazing hands and amazing game situations, then that isn't a flaw with the deck, that is variance. Sometimes I lose 4-5 matches in a row due to variance (either my opponent's amazing draws or my poor draws.) Likewise, sometimes I win games that I have no business winning because of variance.
What matters in the end is your play ability, your familiarity with the deck, and your deck choice for a given tournament- those are the things you have control over - not who your are paired against, not what decks you play against, not how your opponent draws, and not how you draw.
A vast majority of the decks in the format are going to lose to Stifle, Waste, Stifle, Waste, and that includes everything from UW Miracles (running 8 basics) to Elves. A few bad games doesn't mean that you should go tweaking the deck sub-optimally.
This, this, a million times this. Among the tier one DTBs, you have to remember that most of the matchups are, at best, somewhere around 60-40 in one deck's favor. This means the other deck still has a pretty good fighting chance and can sometimes just open with a god hand. As Water Wizard said, RUG's nut draw of multiple Stifles and Wastelands (with perhaps Daze and removal for your Shamans for good measure) will smoke just about any deck.
Learn to play around Stifle as best you can, and adjust your play and mulliganing decisions if you know your opponent is on RUG. The matchup is still relatively close to even, though TA is definitely favored since we have a ton of cards that just negate their general strategy.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Leading with non-fetch into deathrite not only beats the stiflex2 wastex2 hand, but it makes those cards look embarrassing.
If you have nothing but fetchlands and your opponent goes volc/trop, go, just keep making land drops and don't do anything until they do. They need to stick an early threat to win. Game 1 the most outs they will have to Tombstalker is either 2 for 1ing themselves or finding a 1-of dismember. I know it's easy to just say "play around stifle", but there really are warning signs. I agree that sometimes you can't, but you always should if your opponent lets you.
Cartwheeling into stifle if your opponent goes flooded strand pass, now that happens. I would always play 4 of those and 4 deltas if I was on RUG. Broadcasting that you are on Miracles or Esper might be the best way to get people with stifle, even more so than playing wooded foothills.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nitewolf9
I would always play 4 of those and 4 deltas if I was on RUG. Broadcasting that you are on Miracles or Esper might be the best way to get people with stifle, even more so than playing wooded foothills.
Regarding broadcasting as it applies to our deck: Currently I'm just doing a 3/3/3 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs (there's always that jackass out there who thinks he's clever and brings in Pithing Needle). But perhaps it would be good to do a 4/4/1 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs. This way, an opponent might play around our non-existent stifles when we go Misty -> pass back, or Misty -> Tropical, OR play more conservatively/defensively when we go Delta -> Underground -> Ponder (broadcasting that we are on some form of combo such as ANT or Reanimator).
Just an idea. We are obviously getting into some very nitty-gritty details that 99.99% of the time aren't going to make one ounce of difference.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
Regarding broadcasting as it applies to our deck: Currently I'm just doing a 3/3/3 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs (there's always that jackass out there who thinks he's clever and brings in Pithing Needle). But perhaps it would be good to do a 4/4/1 split of Misty/Delta/Catacombs. This way, an opponent might play around our non-existent stifles when we go Misty -> pass back, or Misty -> Tropical, OR play more conservatively/defensively when we go Delta -> Underground -> Ponder (broadcasting that we are on some form of combo such as ANT or Reanimator).
Just an idea. We are obviously getting into some very nitty-gritty details that 99.99% of the time aren't going to make one ounce of difference.
to be honest, I'd drop the misty counts to more catacombs count. This deck really runs on blue and black. green is more of a splash.
If green is really cut off, you still can play the game because you have deathrite shaman that can use black. Then it can give you the green.
But yes...Its not going to make a difference since the entire deck is all duals anyways.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Avatar of Shadow
to be honest, I'd drop the misty counts to more catacombs count. This deck really runs on blue and black. green is more of a splash.
If green is really cut off, you still can play the game because you have deathrite shaman that can use black. Then it can give you the green.
But yes...Its not going to make a difference since the entire deck is all duals anyways.
All of the fetchlands get you all of the duals. This isn't the midrange thread.
