[Deck] Zoo

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Kiln Fiend
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I don't see why this deck wouldn't want to use Kiln Fiend. For example, with the Lynx you try to hold back mana to make him useful, but with the Fiend you can easily have him attack and cast as you go since you hold burn for finishing your opponent or clearing creatures.

Due to how he works, having him being unblocked is extremely dangerous to the opponent since with him you can easily deal 13 damage in a single turn! (2 bolts + him getting boosted twice).

Finally, if you want him to trade with a early Goyf or a Rhox War Monk, it's relatively easy since all you need to do is cast an instant or a sorcery: even if they counter it, he still gets a +3 boost, which is enough to kill either creature. Lynx would require two land drops for what Kiln can do with only one spell cast. I think his ability to punch through Rhox War Monks, even if the cast spell is countered, is very useful for Zoo in fighting Supreme Blue decks.

He is also a faster clock verus combo decks:

Turn 1: Cast Cat. Opponents life: 20.
Turn 2: Cat hits for 3, Cast Fiend. Opponents life: 17.
Turn 3: Cast a couple bolts (6), Cat and Fiend attack (10). Opponent likely used a least one fetch by now. Opponents life: 0 (or 1 if the opponent didn't use any fetchlands).


I think Zoo decks need to seriously consider using the new Kiln Fiend.

Oh, we're doing dream scenarios now? Here's one,

Turn 10: You are in a grueling mirror match. You need a fattie or a solid removal spell. You draw a 1/2 for 1R.

Sure, consideration is probably necessary, but I think the card's terribleness when games are close is horrible. And saying kilin fiend can "easily deal 13 damage" is bullshit, because that requires two bolts that you should be saving as a removal unless your opponent is going to die, and also an active kiln fiend (t3 at earliest) with no opponent removal or opposing creatures. Yes, it can deal 13 damage, and yes, you can get t3 kills against combo, but I can do lots of things with lots of cool assortments of 7 cards in my hand that will totally kick your ass everytime too.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

Oh, we're doing dream scenarios now? Here's one,

Turn 10: You are in a grueling mirror match. You need a fattie or a solid removal spell. You draw a 1/2 for 1R.

Sure, consideration is probably necessary, but I think the card's terribleness when games are close is horrible. And saying kilin fiend can "easily deal 13 damage" is bullshit, because that requires two bolts that you should be saving as a removal unless your opponent is going to die, and also an active kiln fiend (t3 at earliest) with no opponent removal or opposing creatures. Yes, it can deal 13 damage, and yes, you can get t3 kills against combo, but I can do lots of things with lots of cool assortments of 7 cards in my hand that will totally kick your ass everytime too.

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First, I never said Kiln alone will deal 13 damage: I said with him you can deal 13 damage in a single turn. Don't twist my words around please.

I specifically mentioned the combo match up since they are not as likely to have main-deck removal first game. I also mentioned that you don't have to double-burn or use a Path on a RWM if you use Kiln Fiend as he can punch through 4-toughness creatures.

I'm not saying he's flawless, but if Zoo is willing to consider Lynx they should at least test Kiln.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

First, I never said Kiln alone will deal 13 damage: I said with him you can deal 13 damage in a single turn. Don't twist my words around please.

I specifically mentioned the combo match up since they are not as likely to have main-deck removal first game. I also mentioned that you don't have to double-burn or use a Path on a RWM if you use Kiln Fiend as he can punch through 4-toughness creatures.

I'm not saying he's flawless, but if Zoo is willing to consider Lynx they should at least test Kiln.

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While im open for trying new creatures the 2 mana vs 1 mana for lynx is a huge diffrent and also it would mean im gonna have to play with chain lightnings again. I think the fiend is more of a sligh / Boros creature.

I just got crushed by ProBANT in playtesting. I always manage to get him into 10 or less life until he gets some RWM into play or pulls off his Progen-NO combo. A friend playtesting during that day also said that he's hard up on the PROBant match-up. DO others have the same experience?

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Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

At {1}{R} 1/2, it will not see play in and Legacy Sligh (worse than Goblin Guide).

That said, the mana cost difference is huge because Tarmogoyf costs only 2.

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ROFL @ that statement. Fun fact: you can play Goblin Guide AND Kiln Fiend in the same deck! Kiln Fiend is an absolute beast in Sligh and you will without a doubt eat those words.

While Kiln Fiend doesn't belong in Zoo, he is a guaranteed 4 of in every Sligh deck.

I wish the Kiln fiend guy and the Plumeveil guy would form a new thread somewhere away from this one.

While we are talking about new creatures... I for one are going to test out the Kargan Dragonlord in the deck. The deck has really low curve and the extra mana can be spent to the dragonlord and it will gain evasion and able to attack through annoying Rhox War Monks. Notice that not many games with zoo will end fast but they tend to be rather go into mid and late game. While the student will probly be a powerhouse in standard it doesnt gain that much in late game as much as the dragonlord does. Flying and then firebreathing makes it more interesting then a 3/3 first strike that cant win against Rhox War Monk alone.

Dragonlord is expressly worse than FoD...It can't be activated at instant speed, so you can't leave mana open for removal.
And Kiln Fiend is expressly better than Lynx kind of. Don't most people try to keep as close to 20/20/20 as possible? Also, it at least does 1 damage late game, so it might make a Goyf boltable. I know, I'm looking at corner scenarios here. But it's probably a somewhat common one.

Has anyone tested a landfall croprotation version?

4 lynx
4 nacatl
3 pridemage
3 goyf (or kudzu)
4 plated geopede
3 reliquary
4 path to exile
4 berserk
4 crop rotation
x other cards: more 1 drops, elspeth, burn, vines of the vastwood, hate bears.
prob want 24-5 lands
Toolbox:
karakas, sejiri steppe, wasteland, treetop, bojuka bog
11 fetches
3 basics
3-4 flagstones.
5-6 duals.

Should combo out on turn 2-4. Lacking burn worries may as it may be giving up a lot in matchups like merfolk and the mirror.

-JP

Ive been testing Goblin Guide in place of Figure and its the Shiznit! Always T1 Nacatl, T2 Guide= swing w/ Nacatl and Guide for 5 and drop another 1cc. Next turn I spot remove and swing for 5 again taking my opponent down to 10 in the process! Dang! What's best, is that I managed to do this a number of times-----> T1 Nacatl, T2 two Goblin Guides then swing for 7!!!

This is very vulnerable though to Dreadstill CT w/ Firespout main build. Ive been testing with my friend and I almost always manage to get him into 5 or less life before he does his Firespout thing or he soft-locks me w/ CB-Top. Now, since "my version" of the deck now deals an insane amount of damage early on, im thinking of replacing the 2 MD Teegs w/ two MD Fireblasts to deal those last points of lethal damage...

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by DCTopTeam

Ive been testing Goblin Guide in place of Figure and its the Shiznit! Always T1 Nacatl, T2 Guide= swing w/ Nacatl and Guide for 5 and drop another 1cc. Next turn I spot remove and swing for 5 again taking my opponent down to 10 in the process! Dang! What's best, is that I managed to do this a number of times-----> T1 Nacatl, T2 two Goblin Guides then swing for 7!!!

This is very vulnerable though to Dreadstill CT w/ Firespout main build. Ive been testing with my friend and I almost always manage to get him into 5 or less life before he does his Firespout thing or he soft-locks me w/ CB-Top. Now, since "my version" of the deck now deals an insane amount of damage early on, im thinking of replacing the 2 MD Teegs w/ two MD Fireblasts to deal those last points of lethal damage...

Thoughts?

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It sounds like Sligh with a White splash. I'm not bashing you either so don't take it the wrong way. I've always wanted to run GG and i think Sligh would be the deck to do it with.

Edit: No "Level Up" creature that has been printed so far is better than FoD either.

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Originally Posted by InfiniteJest

Has anyone tested a landfall croprotation version?

4 lynx
4 nacatl
3 pridemage
3 goyf (or kudzu)
4 plated geopede
3 reliquary
4 path to exile
4 berserk
4 crop rotation
x other cards: more 1 drops, elspeth, burn, vines of the vastwood, hate bears.
prob want 24-5 lands
Toolbox:
karakas, sejiri steppe, wasteland, treetop, bojuka bog
11 fetches
3 basics
3-4 flagstones.
5-6 duals.

Should combo out on turn 2-4. Lacking burn worries may as it may be giving up a lot in matchups like merfolk and the mirror.

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combo out on turn two ? seriously ? do you live in a world with no counter magic or blockers ?

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Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets

Dragonlord is expressly worse than FoD...It can't be activated at instant speed, so you can't leave mana open for removal.
And Kiln Fiend is expressly better than Lynx kind of. Don't most people try to keep as close to 20/20/20 as possible? Also, it at least does 1 damage late game, so it might make a Goyf boltable. I know, I'm looking at corner scenarios here. But it's probably a somewhat common one.

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I for one dont run the 20/20/20 model, atm its 25C/14S/21L. I like the early evasion Kargan Dragonlord gets. If he gets his new form he will be flying to fly over annoying Rhox Warmonk. The removal just cost 1 mana anyway. Mana unused when playing arround daze can be spent on lvling.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

It sounds like Sligh with a White splash. I'm not bashing you either so don't take it the wrong way. I've always wanted to run GG and i think Sligh would be the deck to do it with.

Edit: No "Level Up" creature that has been printed so far is better than FoD either.

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Well I dont think of it that way, sort of. Your early game presence would be given by Nacatl (or Ape or Loam Lion or FoD) + GG on T2. Removal (PTE) takes care of opponents mid-game threats (Goyf) and you finish them off with your own Goyfs and/or KotRs + burn. That's an approach im trying right now. I have yet to play this extensively though.

Thanks for the comments anyway :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DCTopTeam

Well I dont think of it that way, sort of. Your early game presence would be given by Nacatl (or Ape or Loam Lion or FoD) + GG on T2. Removal (PTE) takes care of opponents mid-game threats (Goyf) and you finish them off with your own Goyfs and/or KotRs + burn. That's an approach im trying right now. I have yet to play this extensively though.

Thanks for the comments anyway :rolleyes:

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basically. The reasons Merfolk is considering Coralhelm Commander are

a) It has tribal synergy
b) It's just on their curve, with the other 2-drops being a lordbear and a cantripping piker
c) They have zero late-game plans, and that gives them a mana sink.
d) an evasive creature after 2UU, assuming no Vial fun

Of these, Zoo gets
a) No tribal help from Dragonman, ever
b) A beater that costs 2 of one mana (albeit what should generally be your primary color) for a 2/2 with nothing special that doesn't go much further than that unless you sink 1.25 turns of mana into him, assuming a land drop every time. Consider the deck's other 2-drops
c) Something to dump mana that could be equipping a Jitte
d) an evasive creature after RRRRRR

Please remember at all times that what makes Zoo so frightening is its consistency. If your deck flounders in any way, Zoo punishes you severely. Personally I don't think giving up that consistency is the way the deck should go unless you are picking up a lot of power in doing so.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Please remember at all times that what makes Zoo so frightening is its consistency. If your deck flounders in any way, Zoo punishes you severely. Personally I don't think giving up that consistency is the way the deck should go unless you are picking up a lot of power in doing so.

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this pretty much sums up why Dragonlord and friends are bad.
I've said it before, but has anyone ever tried Terravore?

Seems worse than Knight of Reliquary most of the time, does not have any utility, does not feed Lavamancer (or Steppe Lynx for that matter.)
Can obviously be bigger in the mirror match than KoR but less synergistic with the rest of the deck.

Kiln Fiend is probably more of a Sligh creature, if you asked me. I usually save my burn as removal or finishers, but Kiln Fiend kind of rewards risky behavior. I'd also probably play any of my other 2cc options before I played it.

KotR is probably my favorite mid to late game creature out of all of the options I've seen (Thoctar, FoD, KDragonlord, and so on). And I don't like KD...partly because sometimes you're going to need a Savannah and at least FoD can use that mana (and it can "level up" at instant speed)