Titan cant retrieve breakthrought...
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Titan cant retrieve breakthrought...
In your little fictional scenario here, if you grabbed sun Titan back then you could grab LED. Six mana would be in the mana pool and you could cast two faithless looting instead of one breakthrough. Dredging with two faithless looting>one breakthrough because of the off chance you don't chain trolls perfect with breakthrough.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Also, passing your turn with Sun Titan in play is better than passing your turn with eternal witness.
However, I probably wouldn't play either in my deck. I would consider Sun Titan if I had bloodghasts in my deck already.
Fictional? Did you ever play the deck? Fictional is think that you can get led on line, dr titan with two loothing awaiting in grave plus one led to retrieve. If you read again, my scenario is by far real.
Moreover, who mentioned passing the turn, with source investment you just win the game.
GC
Sun Titan gets Coliseum, if you have U for Breakthrough then you have U for activating Colliseum. And that has the benefit of playing around counterspells.
Titan seems superior, because it can do stuff even if you don't have lands out.
I wrote fictional because you won't pop LED for UUU if you know you have faithless looting in your deck. You can't dread return eternal witness every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I will play looting first in LED dredge without DR targets, without DR main, 12 lands, everything else as 4-off. I'm kinda excited:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Taking DR and DR targets from LED lists is so unfun ):
I'm currently testing this kind of build and liking so far. I don't know if manabase needs tweaking, maybe -1 CC +1 Citadel?
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Angel of Despair
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Why would you run LED then? You’re literally sacrificing the consistency of LEDless dredge for nothing then. You should at least be running FZ so you can turn 1 win. That, as I understand it, was the whole appeal of LED dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I might actually run Titan or Witness. Zealot just does not make sense. At all. Turn 1 kills are not needed (most of the time)if you have save kills turn 2-3.And that's exactly what happens with looting. Basicly With 8 Studies and 4 Breakthroughs the amount of cards you have in your grave by turn two is such a big number that LED is worth running. I also cannot find space for 2DR + target, because every single other card in the deck is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by dredgekid
Also, if I recall correctly, FKZ hasn't been run in LED dredge recently. To me, the appeal of playing LED dredge is (now) the ability to play 8 Studies. You just are insanely fast without having to worry about losing anything.
I'd agree with Hokus:
A LED list with 15 4-offs and no DR / DR targets seems to be the best.
Why should the list not run DR / Dr targets in the mainboard?
- LEDless Dredge has proofen countless times that you don't need DR targets anyway
- the first turn kill via FKZ, recursion via Witness / Titan, or a simple fatty alá Elesh Norn looks sweet on paper, but you'll never want this in your opening hand and you also wont need it game one either.
Just look at the current "Decks to Beat" and ask yourself: Do I really need any of this shit against them game one?
- while running DR mainly as a sac outled is a good call in LEdless ( I'm still running my 1 maindeck DR) it sort of falls behind in the LED build, due to your ability to flip the deck over in the first 2 turns. However only time will tell if 4 Ichorids or 3 Ichorids +1 DR (because thats the only card you could cut for it) will work better and in the end its allways a matter of opinion
Yeah thats all I can say about this topic right now.
Lets include a small pseudo report, shall we?
Weekly legacy tourney in my hometown:
Round 1: UW Countertop:
G1: I win the roll, stick a Putrid Imp into play and faceroll him with a Cephalid Colliuseum.
Side: -3 Firestorm -2 Carefull Study -1 Tireless Tribe -1 Darkblast +3 Ancient Grundge + 3 Natures Claim +1 Ray of Revelation
G2: He starts with Tundra, Top, while I start slowly with DDD. My hand contains a land and a Breakthrough together with Claim and Grudge, so it looks pretty good for me, however I fail to find another dredger twice in a row, while he slowly build up his manabase. When I finaly find another dredger + Moebe + Therapy its unfortunatly way to late and he wins via Crypt + Academy Ruins
G3:I start and have basicly everything in my hand: City, PImp, CC, Breakthrough, Troll, Study, Bridge... yeah I won this one :S
Round 2: MUD
G1: Once again I lead with a PImp while he starts with a Metalworker. Unfortunatly for him his Metalworker falls to my Firestorm and I proceed to dredge via Study. He still manages it to get a Wurmcoil Engine into play, but he can't deal with the Zombie Horde backed by Ichorids
Side: +4 Ancient Grudge, - 4 cards that I honestly don't remember anymore...
G2: He leads with a Ancient Tomb and nothing more, while I start with a Tireless Tribe. My hand looks pretty decent, including a CC, a Study and 2 Grudges, however his 2nd turn Trinisphere destroys this plan a bit. Coliuseum still does the trick and he gets eaten by Zombies and Ichorids 1 turn befor he can recover.
Round 3: DDfT
G1: He chantwalks me twice and wins on his 4th turn
Side: +1 DR +1 Iona +1 Terrastodon -3 Firestorm
G2: Once again he's able to chantwalk me twice but this time he lacks some card for his combo, so he simply play out Petal and LED and passes the turn with only one card left in his hand. Meanwhile I got 2 Therapys in my graveyard and enough damage to kill him in two turns (unfortunatly i didn't got a DR for my Iona). So I quickly throw a Therapy at Brainstorm, hit, and he scoopes it up .
G3: Basicly the same as G2, only that I got a DR and thus a Terraston while he got 3 tiny token and no lands.
I have to say: playing against DDfT with 7 Chants isn't really fun, either they chantwalk you until they can combo out, or they don't have the chant and you rip their hand apart with Therapy.
Round 4: Team America 2.0 (with Snapcaster and stuff)
G1: He has 2 Forces and a Wasteland, unfortunatly for him I play Dredge so I don't care at all...
Side: + 3 Coffin Purdge + 3 Natures Claim ( yeah, Claims against Team Maerica, but he's been playing all sorts of BUG decks in the past and allways had 4 Leylines in his board, so I had no other choice) -3 Firestorm , -2 Carefull Study -1 Tireless Tribe
G2: I start with a good Hand, including PImp, Breakthrough, City, City, Troll, Ichorid and a Therapy (yeah I am that lucky), so I start slowly by simply throwing Therapy at him, naming Force ( wrong call, but I kinda wanted to resolve this PImp). He reveals his hand including 2 Snapcaster Mages, 1 Extraction, 1 Jace and some lands. EOT he extracts my Therapy and makes the crucial mistake to not check my deck after I pulled out the other 3 copies (and befor you say anything now: I'll allways give my opponent the chance to look through my deck after Extirpate/ Extraction, but he simply shuffled it without looking). In my turn I draw some needless stuff and simply drop PImp - go. So in his turn he does nothing but droping his 3rd land, still knowing that I can't throw Therapy at him anymore and that I have the Breakthrough in my hand. I go and discard the Troll in my upkeep, he ponders for a while but let me proceed into my drawphase. I cross fingers that I wont find Moebe, Bridge or Ichorid now and get rewarded. Discard Troll again, cast Breakthrough and after I drop my first Coffin Purge in the yard he knows whats coming to him.
In the end he manages it to bounce a big troll with his Jace but he still dies to Ichorids and Zombies.
As for the list:
4 City
4 Mine
3 Citadell
4 CC
4 PImp
2 Tribe
4 Moebe
3 Ichorid
4 Troll
4 Imp
3 Thug
1 Blast
3 Firestorm
4 Bridge
4 Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Therapy
1 DR
Side:
4 Grudge
1 Ray
3 Claim
1 DR
4 Purge
1 Iona
1 Terrastodon
Flame Kin shines the most against fast combo of course, but he was also great against decks like stax and lands where they will lock you out if you don't win quick enough. However I don't think stax and lands are worth combating right.
As for fighting fast combo, four cabal therapies with back up of Iona or Sphinx of lost truths/sun Titan(dr target to fill your graveyard with all or most of your therapies) should be sufficient right now.
LED dredge is pretty fast already so flame kin might be over the top.
Playing no DR/DR targets in LED Dredge seems a little awkward, don't you guys think so?
I mean, you flip half deck turns 1 or 2, let your Bridges waiting to be removed and just pass the turn with Narcomoebas and possibly a few zombies? What's the point in playing LED at all?
Maybe FKZ is a win more, but others targets might be useful, such as Sun Titan or Iona... or just DR a GGT, in order to get a board position if your Bridges got removed.
I do think LED dredge should have at the very least one dr target. I think Sun Titan or Sphinx of the lost truths are the most optimal targets. I would rather filter through all of my deck in one turn(first game mind you) than have Iona come in.
I've said this already, but LEDless wants nothing to do with Looting. It isn't better than Tribe (or Firestorm), and I stand by that statement. I've never experienced this phenomenon of wanting fewer discard dorks, like everybody here has, especially post-MM. If you keep a hand that relies on Study or Looting to dig for the piece you need, then you probably kept a weak hand. We should all know this by now. Digging two cards deep isn't better than having a permanent discard outlet which also provides a warm body to Therapy or DR. Anyways, my whole point is "no" to Looting in LEDless.
To add Looting to LED, I think you'll have restructure the deck. Notice how nobody (maybe one or two here) plays that version anymore? That's because it has serious consistency issues. Simply porting the old deck with 12 lands - 8 of those being gold - is unwise. It's shooting yourself in the foot, and I thought we had finally learned to move past poor deck building like that. Looting and PImp aren't cards you want stuck in your hand, right? So I propose 11 gold lands as a staple to either version, and I wouldn't budge on that for anything.
As for DR targets: isn't that the whole point of LED? If you pass the turn having accomplished nothing more than LEDless would have, then why bother playing LED at all?
You actually are about twice as fastQuote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
What? I don't think this addresses anything I said. Yes, LED is faster, but what's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I think he just quotet the wrong part, so here you go:
You adress two interesting points, being the new development towards building LED dredge and the current function of playing DR / targets in said deck.
You actually accomplish nothing more/less than LEDless does, but you are at least 1 turn faster.Quote:
As for DR targets: isn't that the whole point of LED? If you pass the turn having accomplished nothing more than LEDless would have, then why bother playing LED at all?
LED wasn't played for such a long time due to his inconsinstency and the meta shift towards slower mid game decks. We didn't have to fight ANT with Mystical Tutor anymore, so we changed to the version that brings us more consistency, i.e. LEDless dredge.
This basicly brings us two the 2nd point you have adressed.
Looting itself changes the direction of the archetyp, moving from a fast combo deck (or combo like deck, whatever term you prefer) capable of turn 1 kills, yet also capable of failing due to lousy draws, into a deck that is way more consinstend than befor, even with only 12 lands and furthermore even with only 8 rainbow lands.Quote:
To add Looting to LED, I think you'll have restructure the deck. Notice how nobody (maybe one or two here) plays that version anymore? That's because it has serious consistency issues. Simply porting the old deck with 12 lands - 8 of those being gold - is unwise. It's shooting yourself in the foot, and I thought we had finally learned to move past poor deck building like that. Looting and PImp aren't cards you want stuck in your hand, right? So I propose 11 gold lands as a staple to either version, and I wouldn't budge on that for anything.
You have a larger number of hands you can keep due to having a discardoutled and / or some gas to fill it up.
So, I've tested the version HokusSchmokus described since 6 days; just 4-offs and without Dread Return and targets.
I've done about 60+ samplehands on the play (I haven't done it on the draw) and I have to say that the deck is really consistent. You haven't to mulligan about 90% of your hands. And there are many hands that are totally, and I mean totally, absurd.
Additionally I've tested against TES preboard for more than 70 games. And the winpercentage was about 70-30 in Dredge's favour. The guy I tested with hasn't played TES very often, but he knows how to play it. So, against a good pilot the winpercentage should decrease a little.
Furthermore I tested against GW with a handfull of hate (after boarding: 4 GSZ, 2 Ooze, 3 E. Tutor, 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, 1 T. Crypt and I think a few Crypts, too). I've done about 30 games with different SB-settings and the MU wasn't all that great (maybe because he had almost ever the one-off Crypt for my good starts ;-)).
So, that's all I can say. I'm really pleased with this version :-).
Could you two post the list?
Also, if it's not that good against Maverick, what do you two plan to do about the matchup? Unles your meta is diferent from here, we should be expecting a few GWs...