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Well, she can deal 4 damage to a creature... that's not marginal. She's an awesome card all around.
In other news, we now have a critical mass of good planeswalkers that can win under ensnaring bridge lock. It's now possible to build a deck with 4 bridge, 4 koth and 4 new chandra maindeck, going even more towards the "prison" style.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I wouldn't only play 3 Chandra ToD and no other Planswalkers. But my build is a bit more burn.
I could definitely see a less creature base and more Planswalkers.
At that point though it's no longer a Dragon Stompy deck and more like a Walker Stompy deck.
Unfortunately 4 damage doesn't really kill anything 3 damage wouldn't have. So she probably doesn't help us against Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Her 'exile draw' (we need to come up with a term for this!) is actually very good against opposing planeswalkers. Before only Koth was really good at dealing with a Lili or Jace. But now Chandra can apply pressure against them in a way previous incarnations could not.
This is promising! Although I'm not on the x4 bandwagon with her at this point. I'm actually most excited about her '+1> Add :r::r:' ability. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
While this is true, we haven't even had that option on a 4 mana walker before. And while 4 may not kill a Goyf on it's own, it does make it harder for the Goyf to block effectively. If I attack with A rabblemaster and a token into the 4/5 goyf, the opponent now needs to put in a lot more thought to what they could be losing by blocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
MaRo calls this "Impulse Draw".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I loved playing this deck full of Koth's and Chandra's against Miracles.
That match-up should be getting even more fun now. Just watch out for the Sanctum Prelate naming four I guess...
Hmmm... I guess that's fine. Makes me think of Impulse though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Octopusman
Looks like he's getting that name from Act on Impulse.
I think I like Prophetic Draw more (Prophetic Flamespeaker), but maybe that's a tad grandiose. Ultimately it'll be whatever the public adopts.
I'm very smitten by both the new Chandra and Madcap Experiment.
On one hand, traditional Dragon Stompy lists can simply cut all artifacts in order to play 4 Madcap Experiment and 2 Platinum Emporium and abuse the card rather well. But alternatively, do you think something like this looks decent as a starting point to try these cards out?
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle
// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
4 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
2 Collective Defiance
2 Fiery Confluence
This is a very rough and early list.
To abuse the brokeness of Madcap Experiment, perhaps it would be better to go all the way and borrow more elements from Big Red.
Here is a sample list...
// Lands
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Worldspine Wurm
// Spells
4 Faithless Looting
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
//Sideboard
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull
...that utilizes a transformative sideboard to revert back into a more traditional list against matchups where Moon effects are game breaking. It also brings in Godo+Batterskull against matchups where excess lifeloss from Madcap might be a concern.
+4 Blood Moon
+4 Magus of the Moon
+2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
+2 Batterskull
-4 Through the Breach
-4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
-3 Worldspine Wurm
-1 Sneak Attack
I think a list playing pyrostatic pillar in place of CotV if you play Madcap is passable, especially since you have lots of 4+ cards. Alternatively, just relying on 8 moons, but i'm afraid that is weak vs cantrip and combo lists. Something like:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
10 Mountain
4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Seething Song
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Myr Battlesphere
4 Sneak Attack
4 Madcap Experiment
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull
Some preliminary testing indicate: with 10 artifacts, Madcap will kill you. And it will kill you OFTEN. You probably need to stay on the more safe side of 15+ artifacts. The new Gearhulk may be crucial here, especially if it's a pseudo-inferno titan. Possible alternatives are running the new ghirapur orrery as card draw (but this may be super good for miracle), the 4 mana card draw portal, some crucibles, lodestone golem, or whatever. I wouldn't advise going for more uncastable fatties, but that's my preference to have less shitty hands.
I was very skeptical of it, but the new chandra seems insane. Being able to -3 the turn it come out, then ramp into a fatty the turn afterward, and then alternatively draw cards and accellerate fatties is perfect for this kind of deck.
Losing Chrome Mox is just too much to ask. It's cute and can lead to some busted things, but at the end of the day, it slows the deck down and that's the death knell for a deck like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Also, if you are intent on doing it, you could just have 1-2 copies of Platinum Emperion. Its just inside of the long term castable range and costs zero life off of Madcap. You can just have the two in the deck and then it will always come into play for no life.
Gheizen64, Thanks for the excellent feedback. I like Pyrostatic Pillar and Myr Battlesphere. Both synergize with Madcap very well and they are both hardcastable. Even if Sneak Attacked, Myr swings for 12 damage immediately and leaves behind 4 1/1s.
The comboesque list I posted above is not slow. Anything but. It tends to win many games on turn 1 or 2 or turn 3 at the latest. And it has a ton of consistency and redundancy that will let it take over the midgame if the deck gets disrupted to the point that it can't close the deal in the first couple of turns. This more than makes up for the risk that Madcap poses IMO.
The reason why your build is slow and not winning on turn 1 or 2 is because you cut Emrakul/Blightsteel/Worldspine/Sneak Attack/Breach from the list there by taking a turn 1 or turn 2 deck to a turn 3 or turn 4 deck.
If you do opt to go with a slower build like the one posted and cut out Emrakul/Blightsteel/Worldspine/Sneak Attack/Breach from the list, I would highly encourage running 2 Platinum Emporium as the only artifacts in the deck. They are hardcastable and cancel out the life loss from Madcap entirely.
After a bit of testing, i've settled on this list:
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Sundering Titan
2 Myr Battlesphere
3 Batterskull
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Blood Moon
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Sandstone Needle
14 Mountain
Chandra is really good: it make everything up to 7 castable easily, and if casted early she is like a worse thran dynamo that remove a critter when it ETB and then draw card and win the game late when you don't need the mana. Song and Simians are the usual accellerants to have her, madcap or Lodestone out early. Madcap experiment can go from a one-sided armageddon + 7/10 to at worst lodestone golem 5-8. I heard playing 8 lodestone golem is fun for your opponent. It could even be possible to still play chalice as a 3-of here, and just accept the fact that your madcap will fizzle about 1 in 6 times, which could be acceptable given the average outcome is still absurd. Alternatively, 3-of trinispheres make even the worst madcap still passable, while giving fits to your combo/cantrip opponents. I'll probably just play 4 trinisphere in the side and accept that G1 vs combo is a bye.
It's a really fun deck. It play a bit like all-in red, but it's much more redundant as madcap require 0 cards in hand.
The list I posted below is not slow. Anything but. It tends to win many games on turn 1 or 2 or turn 3 at the latest. What Madcap adds to it is consistency and redundancy that will let it take over the midgame if the deck gets disrupted to the point that it can't close the deal in the first couple of turns. This more than makes up for the risk that Madcap poses IMO.
If you opt to play a slower build as opposed to the build I posted below, I like the suggestion made earlier to run Pyrostatic Pillar maindeck. Pillar plays a role similar to Chalice.
I settled on a final version of the deck...
// Lands
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Combustible Gearhulk
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Spells
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Desperate Ritual
2 Worldspine Wurm
// Other Maindeckable Cards
Faithless Looting
Pyrostatic Pillar
Chaos Warp
Blood Moon
Magus of the Moon
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Outdated: Here is an older list I tried before settling on the above list.... The old list was based on the suggestion by Cire to test if Platinum Emporium could be played in lieu of all other artifacts not named Blightsteel.
// Lands
9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Platinum Emporium
// Spells
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
// Sideboard
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
While such a list looks promising due to it's speed, it also has a harder time recovering if the initial threat gets StPed/FoWed. The first list had the added resilience of being able to hard cast several of it's game breaking threats even if the initial threat got countered or removed. Alternatively, the list could play Faithless Looting or Chandra, Torch of Defiance in lieu of Desperate Ritual in order to given it a bit more resiliency. This way, it has a better chance of recovering if the first threat gets forced or removed.
I am going to stop posting further updates in this thread since this deck has evolved to a point where it no longer fit's the description Big Red. I made a separate thread in order to avoid derailing this thread with my build... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...124#post969124
Tonight I played the following list:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sudden Shock
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Shaman of the Great Hunt
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Shattering Spree
3 Sulfur Elemental
3 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Lotus Petals instead of Chrome Mox, mostly because I do not own Chrome Mox until they arrive in the mail next week.
Shaman of the Great Hunt is a flex slot, will become a different thing asap. I sideboarded them out every game.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar is good for providing fliers to chump with, but not much else. Leaning towards cutting these as well.
Scab-Clan Berserker is a meta call. It gives extra storm hate, but it's downside is double red in the cost.
8 players at LGS today.
Rd 1, Doomsday. G1, Magus of the Moon, Chalice of the Void @1. Win via combat damage. G2, sb out 2x shaman, 1x pia, sb in 3x trinisphere. Trinisphere, magus of the moon, goblin rabblemaster seals the match. 2-0 match, 1-0 total.
Rd 2, R/G Lands. G1, Magus of the Moon prevents him from playing anything important, and he draws 0 Punishing Fire. Chalice @1 stops his 1x Vortex (which would have been pretty good, considering he has DD combo in play, but as mountains.) Sb out 2x shaman, 2x pia, 1x garrison, sb in 3x shattering spree, 2x ensnaring bridge. G2, mulligan to 6. He leads with grove, I play chalice @0. He topdecks mox diamond, and flings it across the table in disgust. He plays a land and passes. I play magus of the moon, which he punishing fires. I play a second, he punishing fires again, and follows up with tireless tracker. I sudden shock the tracker. 2 turns of him porting and wastelanding me, and I drop Blood Moon. He dies to rabblemaster holding 2x mox diamond and a krosan grip. 2-0 match, 2-0 total.
Rd 3, Grixis Delver. Opponent has a good start, killing some of my creatures with Lightning Bolts and Dismembers. His removal is better than mine for this game, and he crushes with Pyromancer and Gurmag Angler before I can stabilize. I draw Pia the turn before I die, but he has me at 2 life with 5 creatures in play. Math dictates I die either way. Sb out 2 Shaman, 1 Pia, sb in 3x trinisphere. I open with Chalice @1. He plays land, pass. I play Magus, he plays Pyromancer. I play a Trinisphere, and he cannot deal with Magus in time. I wipe him out with Garrison and Rabblemaster.
G3, I pretend to sb, but shuffle in 15 cards and pull out the same 15. This was the best opening I have experienced in a long time. He is on the play, and casts turn 1 Gitaxian Probe at me. He sees, "Cavern, Magus, Chalice, 2x SSG, 2x Lotus Petal." The people watching this match laugh loudly as they see my opponents jaw drop. I draw a Blood Moon, play Cavern, 2x Petal, sac 2x Petal to play Chalice @1, he thinks for a long time, returns his Underground Sea to daze. I tap Cavern to pay for daze. Chalice resolves, I pass. He wastelands the cavern. I draw another land, play it, cast Garrison, resolves. He plays U Sea, passes. I draw, attempt to attack, he taps U Sea and tries to Bolt the Garrison ... he thinks it's a Magus, but I point out that 1- U Sea is an actual U Sea, no red mana, and 2 - Chalice @1 is still out. He ends up with a Pyromancer, but by then I have Magus, 6x Human tokens, and a Garrison. He dies to combat damage. 2-1 round, 3-0 total.
Afterthoughts,
1- Land issues. If you don't get the right mix of lands, you can get mana screwed easily.
2- Pia and Shaman do not need to be in the deck at these slots. Maybe Koth, maybe 2 mana removal spells, like Mizzium Mortars. It deals with Thought-Knot Seer and plays well with Chalice. At least until Kaladesh comes out, and we get new yummy Chandra.
Great write up!Quote:
Originally Posted by AceOfJacks
How was Hanweir Battlements ? Did you ever get to use the has ability?
Did you like having Cavern of Souls in the deck?
How many new Chandra's would you play in this list?
I have 1x Battlements just in case things go horribly awry, and I need to meld the dude. I drew the land once, and it didn't matter, due to Magus AND Blood Moon both being on the table. I wouldn't run more than 1, but you have to consider I played this deck a total of 6 matches so far. 3x yesterday, 3x last week. I seriously doubt that 6 matches is enough sample data to give me correct numbers for that 1 land. However, from what I have seen playing this style of deck, that 1 land will be used for non mana abilities maybe 1 out of 200 matches.
Cavern is pretty much required if you want to stick a t1 or t2 Magus, because the density of blue decks in the current metagame is incredibly high. When DREGDE is running Force of Will maindeck, you know people have control issues. Every time I play against a blue deck, I feel like I'm sitting across from a Catholic School teacher Nun who is holding a wooden ruler, ready to slap you on the knuckles and scream, "NO!" whenever you cast a spell.
Chandra looks fun, but the planeswalker rule, the 4cmc, and the double red in the cmc makes it tough. Maybe it will get easier if I run Chrome Mox instead, but I also did a mental experiment as I played. I asked myself, "What would this hand look like if these Lotus Petals were Chrome Mox?" The answer was, "This hand is bad." Every red card in the hand was a threat that I wanted to cast, or a Simian Spirit Guide to help cast said threat. And every threat needed to be answered by your opponent, or else the game would swing out of reach. So, knowing this, I would probably run 2 Chandra upon release. You might have problems casting her unless you run 4 and expect to pitch 1 to a Mox, so if you don't want dead cards in your hand, run less copies, and use the other 2 slots for something else, like a 2-3 cmc spell. Maybe even a removal spell to deal with those Thought-Knot Seers.
Side note, currently, every creature in the deck dies to Lightning Bolt. The best option is to hope that we land enough threats so that the opponent cannot Bolt all of them. Punishing Fire was incredibly annoying, almost to a point where I thought I would lose that game against Lands last night. The actual Blood Moon kept his Port and Grove shut off in the end, however, while his Grove was online, it was a scary board state for a while.
Tried 2x Mizzium Mortars instead of Shamans tonight.
Rd 1, loss to Merfolk. G1, 2x True-Name Nemesis is brutal. G2, 2x True-Name Nemesis is brutal again, but this time with lords. Honest opinion, our deck needs more creature control in general, but TNN seems like auto lose when your opponent has blockers for the rabble or hanweir.
Rd 2, win against enchantress. Game 1, opponent was locked out of white mana. Turn 1 chalice @1, turn 2 magus of the moon, turn 3 Rabblemaster, turn 4 hanweir. Sb out 2x mortars, 4x sudden shock, sb in trinisphere and shattering spree (couldn't think of anything else to sb in.) Turn 1 chalice @1, turn 2 blood moon, turn 3 trinisphere, but no pressure on opponent. Opponent plays living wish for reclamation sage, i play rabblemaster. He destroys blood moon, which turns on serra's sanctum. I play second rabblemaster. He draws sphere of safety, but messes up with math and is 1 short to play it after playing another spell. I draw 3rd rabblemaster and he scoops.
Rd 3, loss to burn. G1, opp has all the 1 mana burn spells, and 2x price of progress seals my fate. Sb out 4x blood moon, 1x magus, sb in 3x trinisphere 2x sulfur. Chalice and trinisphere slow him down long enough for me to rabble and hanweir his face. G3 sb out sulfur and sb in shattering spree, since i saw ensnaring bridge from him g2. I mull to 5, get no lock pieces, but turn 1 dude to try to race. He clears my board and wins with goblin guide and Swiftspear. I had no red sources except 1x petal and 1x ssg.
R4, loss to dnt. G1, i was on the play and could have won, but i misplayed horribly. Turn 1 chalice 1, followed by chalice 0. Should have been chalice 1 then chalice 2. I messed up, but meh, dnt is usually an annoying matchup for me anyway.st strike plus sword of fire and ice usually wrecks me anyway. G2, had no chalices, but I had removal in my hand. I tried to keep his board under control, but the ability to bounce batterskull repeatedly made him win. I could have played it better, but honestly I just gave up halfway through the match. Also, I hate DnT. I just hate it.
Total, 1-3. I SERIOUSLY think we need more removal. Against any deck with lots of basics, we just lose. Their creatures are better, and they have tricks that we do not. Merfolk has card draw in the form of Silvergill, DnT has Stoneforge and Recruiters, Burn can clear our boards and attack with a single 2/2 ... we need to be able to deal with our opponents creatures more efficiently. 4x Sudden Shock is just not enough.
Your playing the version with just beaters. Play the Moggcatcher version and that doesn't happen as having Siege Gangs and Moggcatchers help fill that roll.Quote:
Originally Posted by AceOfJacks
Additionally, I dont think you need more removal. Merfolk, Burn and DnT are among the harder matchups for this deck. Also playing petal over Chrome Mox makes you way more vulnerable to decks that don't die to one card.
Agree. Chrome Mox is a necessary evil in mono-color stompy. You get an opening hand with 2x Lotus Petal and 1 land, you will probably lose. 2x Chrome and 1 land, it's bad, but you have the potential to keep (T1 Blood Moon, T2 Blood Moon again - instead of T1 Blood Moon, T2 nothing).Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTurgeon
Straight up removal in a Stompy deck is awkward. Generally, you want lock pieces - something like Humility to "remove" the threat of creatures, or The Abyss to remove repeatedly. Sudden Shock is and always has been sub-par to the semi-prison strategy. Ideally, you'd have removal flexible enough to turn into a win con or lock piece. New Chandra would be perfect at that - it's flexible removal that can play another role. Sudden Shock can kinda be "removal or win con", but a one-shot effect in a deck that wants repeatable effects every turn... sub-par. Prison can take several turns to lock someone out, so Planeswalkers or Hanweir/Rabblerabble, Equipment (Jitte/SoFI), other cards that give you more effects each turn... that's where you ideally want to be at.
So yes, I'm saying something like Chandra / Pia and Kiran Nalaar / SoFI > Sudden Shock. Given the more drawn-out nature of stompy decks.