Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

First off, if you don't have a healthy respect for Wasteland in a 3 color list with no land recursion, I'm not sure you should be taken seriously by me or anyone else. Also, if they are playing Jund and its past turn 3, I'd say they aren't gonna take your Tundra bait seriously...unless they have the same misguided lack of respect for the card as well. Or they're stupid.

One more thing, if you are fine with them hitting your Grove, How do you plan on dealing with the Lilianas they resolve?

-ABC

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Btw, there are other ways to trigger PFire, plow their dude, they gain life with DRS, batterskull, jitte.
Just saying, you can get PFire back sometimes w/o grove.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Yeah, all the lands that don't make blue scare me against combo. I have 4 and I've been losing enough hands to Karakas, Plains, etc. not making UU on time, and you have 3 more UU spells and 1 less U land, along with colonnade that doesn't make U right away. Maybe there's less combo in your metagame, so it might be fine there.

I have definitely found that wasteland decks can punish you pretty hard if you stumble at all - I'm likely to run into some combination of DnT, Goblins, Maverick, and Loam at least twice every week, but maybe my LGS just has a disproportionate number of wastelands?

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I played in a local tournament recently and the Punishing Fires were amazing every time I saw them. I played against Jund, Traditional Reanimator and 2x Deathblade decks. Against Jund I won games off of the board control of PFire alone, despite my opponent's attempts to wasteland me out of the game (one game she hit me with 3 wastelands by turn 10 or so). The 2-3 Lilianna of the Veil she resolved were all burned out of the game by PFire in a matter of a couple turns.

The PFires were again amazing against Deathblade. Both opponents stopped playing any burnable creatures (which is quite a few in that deck) once they saw I had access to repeatable removal. One of my opponent's, before I had played a PFire, thought he was clear to play a Jace. He brainstormed with Jace, and passed the turn. I played a Grove of the Burnwillows, burned Jace with a Fire from my hand, brought it back with the Grove and killed Jace. He had only one turn before I had cleaned up the board again.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Btw, there are other ways to trigger PFire, plow their dude, they gain life with DRS, batterskull, jitte.
Just saying, you can get PFire back sometimes w/o grove.

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I agree with you, but you don't want to just go tossing away a Grove to a Waste because there are sometimes other (albeit less effective, and some are just bad) ways to get back a burn spell that's crap on it's own...If anything, Punishing Grove combo should be the one in the sb, not the Rest in Peace.

-ABC

EDIT::: BTW, please don't construe this by thinking I am saying the combo is bad; it's not. It's just only really good in a couple matches. However, outside of the few matches it's good against, non-recurring L. Bolts can be just as good/better than the combo.

Again, if they're not wastelanding your other lands as they wait for a grove you are perfectly fine with that. Also this means you are keeping your karakas around as well. Even if they immediately waste your grove you are getting an extra use out of your fire.

Here is a video of me playing Punishing Miracles vs Junk Maverick. You can kind of see how wastelands work here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zJj2NRQvg
Also, you can see how games go when you do not draw Terminus after going through about a 1/3rd of your deck :-)

Does anyone happen to have a video of miracles vs jund?

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Originally Posted by sauce

Here is a video of me playing Punishing Miracles vs Junk Maverick. You can kind of see how wastelands work here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zJj2NRQvg
Also, you can see how games go when you do not draw Terminus after going through about a 1/3rd of your deck :-)

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I'll admit that I might be biased, but I didn't really see the Punishing Fires doing much work at all in any of these games. The only game that it might have helped was the first, but between Wastelands on your R sources and KotR quickly growing too large, it never really had a chance to get going. What won you the last two games was good old fashioned Miracles Terminus/Jace/Swords action (with Taigo helping a bit).

In the first game, I did notice that you missed an opportunity to get Jace down earlier on a little more favorable board. Around 2:50, you could have Punishing Fire'd the KotR. He then would have protected with Mom, allowing you to untap, Jace-bounce the KotR, and be able to untap with Jace in play. This is slightly better because you then would have been able to bounce the KotR again and kill the Mom with the Punishing Fire once he goes to protect. Your draws weren't great, but that might have taken some of the earlier pressure away.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I'll admit that I might be biased, but I didn't really see the Punishing Fires doing much work at all in any of these games. The only game that it might have helped was the first, but between Wastelands on your R sources and KotR quickly growing too large, it never really had a chance to get going. What won you the last two games was good old fashioned Miracles Terminus/Jace/Swords action (with Taigo helping a bit).

In the first game, I did notice that you missed an opportunity to get Jace down earlier on a little more favorable board. Around 2:50, you could have Punishing Fire'd the KotR. He then would have protected with Mom, allowing you to untap, Jace-bounce the KotR, and be able to untap with Jace in play. This is slightly better because you then would have been able to bounce the KotR again and kill the Mom with the Punishing Fire once he goes to protect. Your draws weren't great, but that might have taken some of the earlier pressure away.

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part of the game, you dont always draw pfires/grove just like you dont always draw rip/helm. multiples of pfire is better than multiple of rip imo unless you're actually setting up the combo.
i think grove/pfires is overall a better combo against the current metagame than rip/helm. obv rip/helm win instantly and it's a different type of combo, i just feel like giving pfires a good test is worth it for me.

Hey I am building a list and was trying to think outside of the box and get some new things in there also I am new to miracles so I need some constructive criticism on helping me build it here is my list right now

Artifact (4)
4xSensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (3)
3xCounterbalance

Instant (21)
4xBrainstorm
3xDaze
4xForce of Will
3xSpell Pierce
3xStifle
4xSwords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (3)
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorcery (7)
3xEntreat the Angels
4xTerminus

Land (22)
2xArid Mesa
4xFlooded Strand
3xIsland
1xKarakas
2xPlains
2xScalding Tarn
4xTundra
4xWasteland

I added waste and stifle to punish their mana; and with those and spell pierce I feel daze becomes better also helps in non fair match-up with an alternate casting cost but still is in the 2 cmc counter slot that counterspell was in.

So any suggestions tips ect would be appreciated thanks.

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

Hey I am building a list and was trying to think outside of the box and get some new things in there also I am new to miracles so I need some constructive criticism on helping me build it here is my list right now

Artifact (4)
4xSensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (3)
3xCounterbalance

Instant (21)
4xBrainstorm
3xDaze
4xForce of Will
3xSpell Pierce
3xStifle
4xSwords to Plowshares

Planeswalker (3)
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorcery (7)
3xEntreat the Angels
4xTerminus

Land (22)
2xArid Mesa
4xFlooded Strand
3xIsland
1xKarakas
2xPlains
2xScalding Tarn
4xTundra
4xWasteland

I added waste and stifle to punish their mana; and with those and spell pierce I feel daze becomes better also helps in non fair match-up with an alternate casting cost but still is in the 2 cmc counter slot that counterspell was in.

So any suggestions tips ect would be appreciated thanks.

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suggestion: play a proven list. look at lists that are either doing well at scg or have been talked about by people of credibility in this thread.
definitely do not go building your own list when you're not familiar/experienced with miracles.
miracles is not trying to play the tempo game so cards like wasteland, daze and stifle have no place in this deck.

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Originally Posted by sauce

suggestion: play a proven list. look at lists that are either doing well at scg or have been talked about by people of credibility in this thread.
definitely do not go building your own list when you're not familiar/experienced with miracles.
miracles is not trying to play the tempo game so cards like wasteland, daze and stifle have no place in this deck.

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That makes since thanks.

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Originally Posted by sauce

suggestion: play a proven list. look at lists that are either doing well at scg or have been talked about by people of credibility in this thread.
definitely do not go building your own list when you're not familiar/experienced with miracles.
miracles is not trying to play the tempo game so cards like wasteland, daze and stifle have no place in this deck.

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Also I took out the 4 waste, 3 stifle, 3 daze for; 1 island, 1 plains, 2 counterspell, 4 ponder, 2 elspeth

seem good? because that makes it more of a stock list because and do you have any other advise?

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

Also I took out the 4 waste, 3 stifle, 3 daze for; 1 island, 1 plains, 2 counterspell, 4 ponder, 2 elspeth

seem good? because that makes it more of a stock list because and do you have any other advise?

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you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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Originally Posted by sauce

you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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Thanks very much for your help man.

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Originally Posted by sauce

you don't need 4 ponders in this deck, max i would say is probably 1, even then it's not very good.
elspeth is okay if you expect a lot of mirrors or midrange.

check out my current list, this is punishing miracles (based heavily on kaosjr's list)
http://www.berzerk.org/legacy-uwr-pu...g-miracles.jpg

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just curious why run punishing fire from a mana base stand point, the regular U/W miracles has a rock solid mana base and do the positives out weigh the negatives because I have a punishing Maverick list and I run 3 and 3 like you do but I have KotR to find groves but I have had hands with 2 p-fires and no way to cast them or have 3 groves opening hand and have to mulligan because I added the Punishing package

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

just curious why run punishing fire from a mana base stand point, the regular U/W miracles has a rock solid mana base and do the positives out weigh the negatives because I have a punishing Maverick list and I run 3 and 3 like you do but I have KotR to find groves but I have had hands with 2 p-fires and no way to cast them or have 3 groves opening hand and have to mulligan because I added the Punishing package

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mana base is indisputably worse with groves, but it's not a big issue w/ 4 brainstorms and 4 sensei's divining tops. often times p.fires/grove does not come into play at all.
for example, i played a 4 round legacy tournament yesterday and only had pfires/grove one game out of 4 matches. it's great when you draw it or when you set it up, but its not like you must have both.

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Originally Posted by sauce

mana base is indisputably worse with groves, but it's not a big issue w/ 4 brainstorms and 4 sensei's divining tops. often times p.fires/grove does not come into play at all.
for example, i played a 4 round legacy tournament yesterday and only had pfires/grove one game out of 4 matches. it's great when you draw it or when you set it up, but its not like you must have both.

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Are there match ups or times when machine gunning p-fire is just the greatest thing because it would take :r::r::r::2: to cast it twice and one need to be a grove which is pretty late and I feel like it would be best against some aggro variant but that would come late and a miracled terminus just seem better

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Originally Posted by Moose8583

Are there match ups or times when machine gunning p-fire is just the greatest thing because it would take :r::r::r::2: to cast it twice and one need to be a grove which is pretty late and I feel like it would be best against some aggro variant but that would come late and a miracled terminus just seem better

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in my experience that only happens very late game vs decks like maverick and/or bug if it ever happens.
grove really shines in the BUG matchups and to pressure annoying planeswalkers for this deck like liliana.

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Originally Posted by sauce

in my experience that only happens very late game vs decks like maverick and/or bug if it ever happens.
grove really shines in the BUG matchups and to pressure annoying planeswalkers for this deck like liliana.

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Ok that makes since.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Here is a video of me playing Punishing Miracles vs Junk Maverick. You can kind of see how wastelands work here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zJj2NRQvg
Also, you can see how games go when you do not draw Terminus after going through about a 1/3rd of your deck :-)

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Interesting you used this video to show the deck.

All this video really showed was that Punishing fire did nothing and Jace wins games on an empty board.

You are right about 1 or 2 Wastelands not being a problem for the deck though I don't think that is a reason to run Punishing Fire and risk the mana base. Just because you COULD have cast Punishing Fire in these games does not mean it SHOULD be in the deck. Also this game does not show what happens when you have the punishing fire and you don't have the land for it or when those extra red sources stop you being able to cast other spells.