[Deck] GW/x Maverick

The cavern definately seems worth it. It makes a ton of your guys uncounterable for the only drawback of it being non-basic and not helping cast your other stuff as easily. The colorless thing really shouldn't be a problem as when you're mana is off you can always say wizard to cast quasali pridemage and lavamancer (if you run him). Given so many decks run FoW this is just a must card.
It's just an insane card in legacy as there are so many good humans, i can even think of stuff like using this to cast BoB, delver and snapcaster in some deck for example. Uncounterable bob can really be crucial in some matches.

It never occurred to me that counter strategies were that much of a liability for Maverick. I've lost far more games to active Jace than to repeated counterspells. I don't think Maverick particularly cares for this land too much. It adds more constraints to the mana base rather than improve generic matchups that are bad.

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Originally Posted by Marke

The cavern definately seems worth it. It makes a ton of your guys uncounterable for the only drawback of it being non-basic and not helping cast your other stuff as easily. The colorless thing really shouldn't be a problem as when you're mana is off you can always say wizard to cast quasali pridemage and lavamancer (if you run him). Given so many decks run FoW this is just a must card.
It's just an insane card in legacy as there are so many good humans, i can even think of stuff like using this to cast BoB, delver and snapcaster in some deck for example. Uncounterable bob can really be crucial in some matches.

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Mav is so repetitious that it doesn't matter if they counter. It will just come back again and again.

I have to ask again: which (generic) counterspells are we talking about? Force of Will, ok. And what else?

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I have to ask again: which (generic) counterspells are we talking about? Force of Will, ok. And what else?

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Counterspell, Spell Snare, Daze. I'm not really concerned about counter strategies - anything with that much spell control can't handle the threat density of Maverick. I almost prefer that my opponent use FOW to slow me down, since it means trading 2 of their cards for one of ours.

I dont really see the downside to cavern in maverick other than vulnerability to wasteland. It adds colorless regardless and for almost half of mavericks spells it adds 1 of any color that cant be countered. Why wouldnt this replace canopy and/or other utility lands? Seems like a no brainer upgrade. Personally I dont look at FoW on knight and thalia as 2 for 1, its more like 2 or game loss.
Edit- protecting the other little bastards is just gravy but with mom can also be game ending.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Counterspell, Spell Snare, Daze. I'm not really concerned about counter strategies - anything with that much spell control can't handle the threat density of Maverick. I almost prefer that my opponent use FOW to slow me down, since it means trading 2 of their cards for one of ours.

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Exactly. There's a reason, Spell Snare and Force of Will are among the first cards hitting the bench in the Maverick matchup. Actually [CARDS]Daze[CARDS] is the only card that would be worth looking into since playing around it will cost a turn. On the other hand, decks playing Daze are usually a good matchup anyway and much more often lost to Wasteland rather than counterspells.

However, there's ONE thing it does really well: cast hatebears against combo. If you draw it in your opening seven.

I am ok with cutting a single Horizon Canopy for it although I feel I'd MUCH rather have Horizon Canopy in the mid-to-lategame than this. It's also worth noticing that it doesn't cast a lot of sideboard cards.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Counterspell, Spell Snare, Daze. I'm not really concerned about counter strategies - anything with that much spell control can't handle the threat density of Maverick. I almost prefer that my opponent use FOW to slow me down, since it means trading 2 of their cards for one of ours.

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That and Sword of Light and Shadow punishes them for countering creatures.

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Originally Posted by Koby

It never occurred to me that counter strategies were that much of a liability for Maverick. I've lost far more games to active Jace than to repeated counterspells. I don't think Maverick particularly cares for this land too much. It adds more constraints to the mana base rather than improve generic matchups that are bad.

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I don't think it adds any meaningful constraints. Unless you have no other lands that make green mana, you can still cast Green Sun's Zenith with it. You can still hardcast equipment with it. You can't cast Swords to Plowshares with it, but you probably have another land that can.

We're basically comparing the following:

Things you can't do with Cavern of Souls:

- GSZ for 0
- Cast Swords to Plowshares
- Activate Scavenging Ooze
- Cast Qasali Pridemage (usually)
- Cast Elspeth if you have less than two lands/creatures that make white mana

vs.

- Casting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, Knights of the Reliquary, Ethersworn Cannonists, and (possibly) Loyal Retainers.

I don't think the constraints are meaningful. The benefits are nice, but not overwhelming. I don't see why running one Cavern of Souls makes the deck worse.

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this land. I tend to not care when my opponent is countering my creatures but having an uncounterable Mother of Runes and Loyal Retainers is kind of appealing. In some circumstances an uncounterable Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist against High Tide could come in very handy.

I wouldn't fault anyone for playing the land and I think you could run it over the Gaea's Cradle if you cut the stoneforge package, the Maze of Ith slot if you run one main, and perhaps a fetchland or the second Horizon Canopy.

I don't see why Cavern of Souls shouldn't be played over Wasteland. Use a singleton Wasteland or Dust Bowl to get rid of a Maze of Ith if you want, Cavern of Souls makes your deck MORE consistent in terms of resolving threats and casting spells / color-fixing. You aren't going to 'wastelock' UR Delver decks anyway since they operate on 2 lands, and Cavern is a much better card against blue control decks than wasteland is.

Over Wasteland? Madness! :eek:

Wasteland wins games. If you want to try this, do as follows:

-1 Horizon Canopy
-1 Forest (going down to just 1)
+1 New Land
+1 Green Fetchland

To me it doesn't seem worth it, but at least don't cut Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I don't see why Cavern of Souls shouldn't be played over Wasteland. Use a singleton Wasteland or Dust Bowl to get rid of a Maze of Ith if you want, Cavern of Souls makes your deck MORE consistent in terms of resolving threats and casting spells / color-fixing. You aren't going to 'wastelock' UR Delver decks anyway since they operate on 2 lands, and Cavern is a much better card against blue control decks than wasteland is.

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Wasteland is much too important to cut for a land that might make your creatures uncounterable. First of all Wastelanding someone out of the game is a real thing. It happens all the time even if you don't have an active Knight and second burn is a REAL threat. Adding another nonbasic to the mana base that can't remove itself is essentially suicide versus a price of progress.

Many people say the cavern isn't worth it because decks with counters are good matchups for us anyway but I don't think that's completely true.
Combo decks with counter protection will use those counters to stop our hatebears, this lets them resolve, quite crucial.
For tempo decks with counters those counters might not be the best against us but they will still use them and early at that. Someone with FoW in hand still has to use it most of the time so they will still try to counter your knight, thalia whatever. Drawing this in the opening hand vs blue is just great as you can make sure they can't make a tempo play against you on turn 2 or 3 most of the time.
It seems like a 2-of for me probably taking out the canopy and 1 other land. It practically fixes your mana most of the time and if really needed you can always name something else then human to cast your pridemage or whatever. The power of denying FoW on your knight and thalia is just huge and stopping daze and spell snare as well is just good too, especially daze as you often can't allow yourself to play around that.

Why not cut a Savanna?

It still produces G/W. ...and the deck can hit G off of Noble for GSZ.

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Originally Posted by Fade

Wasteland is much too important to cut for a land that might make your creatures uncounterable. First of all Wastelanding someone out of the game is a real thing. It happens all the time even if you don't have an active Knight and second burn is a REAL threat. Adding another nonbasic to the mana base that can't remove itself is essentially suicide versus a price of progress.

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I think you could get away with a 3/3 split of Wasteland and Cavern of Souls. It being a non-basic is a non-argument since you shouldn't be swapping basic land for utility land anyway. You shouldn't forget that cavern actually FIXES your mana. If you can run Wasteland, I don't see why you can't run a land that makes mana of any color.

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Originally Posted by Freggle

Why not cut a Savanna?

It still produces G/W. ...and the deck can hit G off of Noble for GSZ.

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Assuming you choice Humans, then you do not have G for Scrub Ranger & Zenith, or white for StP. with a land. Creature die, a lot.

Dropping a Conopy is the best choice. You replace one non-basic with another. You trade the option to draw a card for not taking any damage when you use it and making 1/2 your non-lands card uncounterable.

Obviously, it makes no sense to cut Savannah, fetchlands, or Wastelands for the new Cavern. I would strongly argue that you don't cut basics either (see below). Some of the utility lands can be questioned. Not Karakas though; that allows us to win so many games we have no business being in. I wouldn't cut Gaea's Cradle or Maze of Ith for it either, although I currently run neither. Dryad Arbor is a must. So that leaves Horizon Canopy as a possible consideration.

I simply refuse to cut below 3 Forests and 1 Plains because I feel having basics are extremely important. Not only are they resilient to Wasteland and Blood Moon, but they are important in many other matchups besides that, ranging from Burn (Price of Progress), Nic Fit (Veteran Explorer), to Stoneblade (Path to Exile). They turn on Knight of the Reliquary and Scryb Ranger. Obviously, Caverns also gives you awkward situations where you can't cast the Swords to Plowshares in your hand, the Qasali Pridemage in your hand because you named Human, or activate the Ooze to exile a crucial card.

All of these drawbacks are significant, and based on my experience, I would lose far more games due to these cumulative vulnerabilities than I would gain from being able to force a creature through counter magic. It would be one thing if control decks only contained a counter wall and no removal, and if Cavern completely blanked their counterspells. But instead, they can simply save their Force of Will or other counter for another non-protected creature, for your GSZ, for the Choke you searched up with Enlightened Tutor, etc. Furthermore, it's the removal that we really have to watch out for. I've rarely been disappointed when I can force my opponent to 2-for-1 himself to answer my creature with a counterspell, especially since that leaves the creature in the graveyard for Ooze or Sword of Light and Shadow.

Cavern may very well belong in the Horizon Canopy slot, although that's because they serve different functions. I run Horizon Canopy not because it provides "utility", but because it reduces variance by serving as a mana source when I need it and as an extra card draw when I'm flooded. The utility that Cavern provides may be worth more than the reduced variance Canopy offers, but I only concede that because I'm unsure how to compare apples to oranges; on the other hand, Cavern is IMO weaker than all the utility lands that commonly see play in a G/W Maverick deck, including several which I opt not to run.

(Although I suppose having a green source without exposing yourself to Submerge is occasionally useful!)

Due to budget reasons, i play Birds of paradise (sad, i know). I also play stoneforge mystic. Would looking for a Elbrus, the Binding Blade make sense? If you can keep your BoP alive with mother, hitting with a flying Elbrus-wielding-Bop would hurt in a big way, wouldn't it?

Ulvenwald Tracker G
Creature - Human Shaman
1{G}, {T}: Target creature you control fights another target creature.
1/1

This seems like a good GSZ target. Very cheap and as soon as you untap you can start gunning down their team with KotR, Ooze and Mother of Runes. Should be especially effective vs. Delvers, Confidant and Mother of Runes, but also good in general vs. creatures.