[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

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drop Bob for Phyrexian Arena and swap Gatekeeper for Edict

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Ok this is a big point to argue with.

First, Bob - Arena:
Pro:
Bob = 2 mana, you can lucky draw a land
Arena = just 1 dmg, (have to reveal it? dunno atm.) its an enchantment and creatures getting destroyed more over enchantment. lol my opinion.

Con:
Bob = you can lose many lives
Arena = 3 mana


I think you can better run BoB without cards with high mana costs or a Top to cheat this damage.

Edict - Gatekeeper

yeah, the problem is with edict you will not get card advantage. you change 1 for 1 and with gatekeeper you have an extra creatures so you have 1 for 1 +1.


My question is, why tombstalker? persucator is much better than tombstalker. (imo)

Because its a 4 mana drop as 6/6 flying trample.
stalker is a 8 mana drop as 5/5 flying.

Sure you can delve it but its still a 8 mana creature ( Bob hurts you with it)
And you can easily remove persucator. (StP, innocent blood, cabal therapy, gatekeeper, vindicate.. etc.

But that like all the other posts just my opinion. :)

I currently run Tombstalker and the opinion I have as to why some people prefer him is that he requires no extra cards to be used. Persecutor, whom I actually do consider the superior choice in most scenarios, requires you add extra removal in the forms of the aforementioned cards like Therapy, Edict, and/or Gatekeeper which would thus meaning switching the deck down a more aggressive route. I'm not going to do a pros/cons list of both cards because they're quite obvious, buts that what I take from arguments I've seen posted. Although Persecutor is the greater card overall, Tombstalker fulfills the big beater roll w/o altering the playstyle of the deck. Even if he's only run as a 2-of he can be quite useful while at the same time minimizing Bob damage.

I'm not saying the deck can't be aggro (and I've even tested some Vial lists which I thought were quite interesting) but many players such as myself opt for Deadguy over Rock because it has a greater resilience against other decks (including Rock which I'm starting to see more and more at bigger tournaments). We run a solid removal suite and evasive cards in the form of Mom/SFM/Nighthawk/TS/Hymn/StP/Vind etc. Changing this deck more to a Gate-style deck exchanges some of this evasion and resilience for a faster clock. There's nothing wrong with this, of course, and I'm not implying Deadguy has to be the standard template with only 3-4 flex spots. I do, however, think players should test as many variants of this deck as they can as all have their varying strengths and weakness.

Forlorn Egoist

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Persecutor, whom I actually do consider the superior choice in most scenarios, requires you add extra removal in the forms of the aforementioned cards like Therapy, Edict, and/or Gatekeeper which would thus meaning switching the deck down a more aggressive route.

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And? No problem with it.
You should have removals in your hand. I mean StoP, Vindicate,Gatekeeper, Go for the Throad, Jitte etc. (dont wanna list them all)

There are really many cards you can choose to kill him.

But its the option of everyone. I just can say i tested both and think Persecutor is much better than Tombstalker.

All in all,
Tombstalker = Arena
Persecutor = BoB
( 'cause of dmg )





Another thing i saw today. ( @ all )
I asked me, why im playing wasteland? Because wasteland is like a wall that blocks me.
For example with Gatekeeper. I played today and couldn't play him 'cause of 1 missing black mana. ( 4-5 times)

It's not only with Gatekeeper. All in all, i had to take mulligans 'cause i had wasteland in my beginner hand and couldn't hold it.

What do you think about it?

I would change 4 wastelands with 4 fetchlands.

K1w1

I don't dislike Persecutor, but I dislike his casting cost. If you're playing fetches/wastes, Tombstalker is usually a 2-drop, sometimes 3. Which would you rather do on turn 4, drop a 4-turn clock, or Hymn/Thoughtseize then drop a 4-turn clock? Jitte + clock? Clock + SFM? Also remember that Tombstalker can help shrink opposing Goyfs. To me his biggest drawback isn't his CMC (a huge plus against Counterbalance), it's that he's vulnerable to graveyard hate, which isn't as common as it used to be (notice Dredge posting results again), but is still pretty common in the format.

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Originally Posted by K1w1

And? No problem with it.
You should have removals in your hand. I mean StoP, Vindicate,Gatekeeper, Go for the Throad, Jitte etc. (dont wanna list them all)
K1w1

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The point being that majority of the time it's necessary for me to reserve removal for opposing threats. Albeit dropping a 3-turn clock is always a solid play but if I'm assuming that he were to get removed then I would be sitting on top of a pile of removal for stall until I draw another threat; I'm not fond of being a dedicated control player. As I've said, there's no denying that he's ultimately less painful Bob-wise and he can kill them a turn earlier but he also necessitates being built around whereas 'Stalker does not. With the suite of removal in the deck and my 8 fetches I've never had a problem casting him for 2. Some players are reluctant to risk the 8 damage; I am not one of them.

As for Wasteland, I think its perfectly reasonable to not run it. In an ideal world you'd use it every game with Vindicate to screw the opponent out of mana all day. Realistically, however, thats not always the case. I, too, have often mulled otherwise good hands due to the Waste mana screw. There is also to consider the fact that we're not running into too many decks right now meta-wise that Waste is absolutely nuts against. Dropping Waste makes it easier to splash a 3rd color, if you so choose, and more importantly imo it makes Gatekeeper more viable.

Forlorn Egoist

maybe the question Stalker/Percy is a personel preference. Both have their pros and cons and some of us dislike one more than another.

For the Wastelands, I don't play them for the exact reason you sum up over me. Even without them I have sometimes problems, casting Gatekeeper on Turn 3. I play 8 Fetchies (BW and BR) atm and I works quite well. Tinkering for a while about a light R-Splash, but have found nothing worth it, aside from Bolts^^*

Either finisher requires more deck modifications than just swaping in a couple of flex spots. For instance, with tombstalker I'd like to add a couple tops, and with Persecutor i want to swap my 2 duress for Cabal therapy..and this is just a start (in both cases).

But here's the thing to consider - does adding top make the deck worse? does adding cabal therapy make the deck worse? I think the answer is a resounding "no" in both cases...neither card makes the deck worse. Cabal therapy works great in a deck packed with thoughtseize and scullers, and Top is always going to be good with bob...or in most cases it will be good without bob.

More importantly is this idea - "the deck needs a finisher". In my experience I just can't get there with bears against most decks...it works sometimes, but generally it is just not an effective strategy. Stoneforge mystic and equipment are nice and all, but they need help. I think if we can start the discussion there, then I think this thread and this deck have come a long way in the last couple of months.

That being said...I prefer Persecutor because of 2 primary reasons:

1. He's bigger. I know, it's just 1 power - but in the meta of fetch lands and thoughtseize that's the difference between a 4 turn clock and a 3 turn clock. Plus...you have bears, sneaking 2 damage in over the course of a game isn't that difficult.
2. I like the support cards better. I like Gatekeeper. I like Therapy. Gatekeeper can keep you in games against decks that cheat creatures into play - or even against shroud creatures like Nimble Mongoose or Thrun. I've sung the praises of gatekeeper before, but in general I think the deck gets better with him - regardless of what finisher you pack. Therapy...has been outstanding for me in testing - I look at people's hands a lot, and that makes therapy very good. I think if you know your meta and and you know the decks you're facing Therapy is even better.

That being said, I think if you run Persecutor you also have to run dark ritual, both because of the CMC of Persecutor and the BBB associated with Gatekeeper. But I've never played this deck and been left saying to myself - boy I just have too much mana.

I thought I'd throw up my classic deadguy list for anyone that's curious. I have only tested it against monored goblins with 4 ports and 4 wastes but it seemed like an even match up preboard which gave me hope since this list is obviously gonna struggle against aggro. Revoker in conjunction with sinkhole/vindicate is sexy as it lets you negate vials which before was a serious hamper to a deck like this one.

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Serenity
3 Perish
3 Engineered Plague
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Anybody not playing Stoneforge Mystic in this deck is insane.

I dont' necessarilly agree. I think that our reliance on SFM as a finisher is actually a huge liability. Think of it this way - running a mystic package means that we are dedicating 4-8 cards on finishers as opposed to just running 3 tombstalkers. Plus SFM is slow as hell - 2 to play it, 2 to put the equipment into play, and another 2 to equip...6 mana for a finsiher? It's slow.

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boy I just have too much mana.

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i play
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plains
5 Swamps

and i draw too much of them

My mana Base is as follows:

1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
1 Plains
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Swamps

The quantities of black to white is going to vary depending on the list, but the point I want to make here is that I run 20 lands including wasteland, instead of the 8 fetches that you run. I don't prescribe to the "deck thinning" principle that applies to running 8 Fetches. Generally, if I run 8 fetches then I'm shooting to achieve one of 3 goals with them: Color Fixing, Shuffling (for ponder/brainstorm/top), or landfall (steppe lynx, etc).

In my deck I'm currently using my land for:
Color fixing with the 5 Fetches and 4 Duals
Mana denial with the waste's (obviously)
Wasteland (or non-basic hate) avoidance with the single Plains (this get's fetched A LOT)
Mana Fixing with the Urborg Tomb, so that my wastelands aren't just a colorless source against mono-colored decks
More hate against "unfair creature" decks with Karakas
Round out the base with swamps to get to my 20 count (I'd always run at least 2 though to avoid non-basic hate)

Generally I draw the karakas and Urborg tomb a lot more than I would think, and lately I've actually been having Legendary land issues with Karakas against rock decks and the such...and they basically go to 5 wastelands against me if they can get a KotR to stick. Since I've added more sac effects I've been debating trimming Karakas - it would probably become a swamp.

Typically, when I draw my wastes I use them (depending on what my discard has revealed in their hand), so I always find myself a bit shy on mana - especially with 3 Persecutors and 2 equipment in the deck...it always feels like I could use more mana.

Ritual has been awesome for me in every matchup. Against Combo I can either drop a turn 1 bob + Thoughtsieze/Therapy or I can apply a hard clock starting on turn 2. In either situation Combo just squirms and it forces their plays since they know they cannot just stock their hand since we play too much discard. Aggainst aggro I can drop an early Tomstalker or an Early Nighthawk and their day is ruined - and out of the board I get a turn 1 Engineered Plague if I need it. Whenever I look at my list I consider ritual to be my worst card...but every time I play the deck it feels like an allstar.

I know the big converstation is about 'what finisher to use, Tombstalker or Abyssal Persecutor'. I'm going to think a little more outside the box here, because I think the main issue is fatties we can't deal with.

There is 2 different directions you can go: play your own fatty (hopefully with evasion) to put your opponent on a clock OR...stop your opponent's fattys from hurting you.

I've said it before in a roundabout way, but here goes again: Deadguy doesn't need beef, it needs evasion. The equipment provides the neccessary clock. If it doesn't, why effin' hell is it in there for? So essentially my argument is this: your dudes need abilities or evasion and you need something to keep fatties from hurting you. Here are a couple of ideas:

1) Meekstone + tap effect. Meekstone is cheap, dirt cheap for what it can do, which is put a dead halt to Knights, Terravores, Emmies, Tombstalkers, and Goyfs. Remember, you're playing mostly BEARS. White gives you several options for tap-effects, but Goldmeadow Harrier is probably the best option. Scepter of Dominance and Icy Manipulator are just too mana intensive to abuse I think. Trip Noose has some potential, but the 2 mana activation is fairly daunting as it ties up 2mana. At least Harrier can be played for W, equipped to beat face, and has only W, tap to activate. Progenitus is an issue, but if you can survive one hit, Meekstone steps in to halt it. The bummer part: it affects your equipped dudes. Is there potential for dropping equipment for Meekstone/tapper in the sideboard?

2) Souls of the Faultless seems like it could cause some havoc to decks porting fatties. It seems fairly effective against fair threats like Knights, Goyfs, and Terravores. The bummer part: Emmy will annhilite it (most likely) and Progenitus skates right past.

3) Have we forgotten about Mom so quickly? Block + tap for protection is pretty classic tech vs. fatties.

4) When it comes to creature selection, if it doesn't have evasion or a relivant ability it needs to be left out by neccessity. Persecutor seems like a great idea...but I would probably play Ghostly Prison before I played Persecutor. Time is what you need to set-up equipped bears FTW and Prison should do that for you.

My $.02.


I have a small question to ask: can Revoker name Emrakul and prevent annhilator from happening? If it can, I would say that is a VERY good thing, lol.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I have a small question to ask: can Revoker name Emrakul and prevent annhilator from happening? If it can, I would say that is a VERY good thing, lol.

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Nope. Annihilator is a triggered ability and Revoker only stops activated abilities.

That being said, Revoker is an amazingly powerful card, especially in a deck like this. I run a Wb Vial deck similar to Deadguy and run 4 Revokers main, rarely siding out more than one.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I have a small question to ask: can Revoker name Emrakul and prevent annhilator from happening? If it can, I would say that is a VERY good thing, lol.

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I don't think so since Revoker only stops activated abilities and not triggered abilities. I do like your argument regarding this deck not requiring fatties, although there are times that a finisher with a large power is required to end a game quickly, that is where Goyfs, Abyssal Persecutor, Tombstalker and KotR comes in, they end the game quite quickly once you obtain a good board position. The only problem in this deck is that the creatures that we are utilizing are too small that it would take several turns before you beat an opponent. That;s why some people are splashing green to play Goyf's and KotR and some who would stick to BW would play Tombstalker or Abyssal Persecutor.

That's just my 2cents

Anyway what do you guys think about this card:

Surgical Extraction
{PB}
Instant
({pb} can be paid with either {B} or 2 life.)
Choose target card in a graveyard other than a basic land card. Search its owner's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as that card and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

Free to play Extirpate at the cost of 2 life less the split second, imagine playing turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by this to remove FoW or anything else is quite tempting. Although we lost split second we gain an alternate cost which makes it slightly better than it's predecessor. Who wouldn't want playing extirpate for free.

Tim, is your list posted anywhere? I keep seeing all these new efficient white beaters and I'm thinking it might be time for the weenies to make a comeback. between SFM, Squadron Hawk, and Accorder Paladin, seems like you could drop a nasty beating pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I know the big converstation is about 'what finisher to use, Tombstalker or Abyssal Persecutor'. I'm going to think a little more outside the box here, because I think the main issue is fatties we can't deal with.

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No, this isn't really the issue I'm dealing with by adding a finisher. There are 2 fundemental issues that I'm trying to solve, one is the issue you mention - the other is the fact that we can't establish a clock, so opponents basically have infinite turns to develop a way to kill us - and if their win-con has a fast clock then we just loose.

The fatties we can't deal with...well, I think we can deal with out of the board - we have access to up to 8 perish effects, so they don't really scare me. Plus Revoker naming Noble Hierarch + Wasteland just ruins their day.

It's the combo decks that just wait out our bears that I have an issue with. Basically if the opposition runs anything with 3 toughness, a Tabernacle, propoganda effect, etc, they will slow our win con down to the point where they will simply win. The problem I have is that our deck basically tries to "get through" the early game and just extend the game into the later turns (5-8) to establish board position and win...but what do we do against decks that already want the game to go into the later turns? Suddenly our disruption is much less effective and we can't apply a clock - we have very little ability to become the aggro deck.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

...There is 2 different directions you can go: play your own fatty (hopefully with evasion) to put your opponent on a clock OR...stop your opponent's fattys from hurting you.

I've said it before in a roundabout way, but here goes again: Deadguy doesn't need beef, it needs evasion. The equipment provides the neccessary clock. If it doesn't, why effin' hell is it in there for? So essentially my argument is this: your dudes need abilities or evasion and you need something to keep fatties from hurting you...

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Equipment doesn't start to provide a clock until turn 5 at best, which is fine when you're in a position where you've stabalized board position, but it's bad if you're trying to be the aggro player. Equipment is good at breaking stalemates in a late game and developing card advantage, but in the early game it's just dead. I've tried little dudes with Evasion (squadron hawk) and I have to tell you I was never impressed.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

...Here are a couple of ideas:

1) Meekstone + tap effect. Meekstone is cheap, dirt cheap for what it can do, which is put a dead halt to Knights, Terravores, Emmies, Tombstalkers, and Goyfs. Remember, you're playing mostly BEARS. White gives you several options for tap-effects, but Goldmeadow Harrier is probably the best option. Scepter of Dominance and Icy Manipulator are just too mana intensive to abuse I think. Trip Noose has some potential, but the 2 mana activation is fairly daunting as it ties up 2mana. At least Harrier can be played for W, equipped to beat face, and has only W, tap to activate. Progenitus is an issue, but if you can survive one hit, Meekstone steps in to halt it. The bummer part: it affects your equipped dudes. Is there potential for dropping equipment for Meekstone/tapper in the sideboard...

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I've been debating this card for a while now actually. And it's easy enough to push your equipment around and avoid the negative effects. Ultimately though, trying to answer green creatures with an artifact just doesn't cut it...K-Grip is too prevelant. And it really doesn't bother Emmy and/or Pog enough bother with...generally if either of these creatures swing once you're probably dead. If I were going to go this way though...Crackdown might be another option.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

...2) Souls of the Faultless seems like it could cause some havoc to decks porting fatties. It seems fairly effective against fair threats like Knights, Goyfs, and Terravores. The bummer part: Emmy will annhilite it (most likely) and Progenitus skates right past....

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It doesn't help with clock issues and it doesn't help against emmy or Pog. Basically it's only good in the same situations as Perish/Nature's ruin, but it's not as good as perish...

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

...3) Have we forgotten about Mom so quickly? Block + tap for protection is pretty classic tech vs. fatties.....

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I hate mom. She can't apply a clock and she's simply not aggressive enough. In my mind her flavor text reads "Kill me at your liesure, I'm going to sit here and drink tea"

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

...4) When it comes to creature selection, if it doesn't have evasion or a relivant ability it needs to be left out by neccessity. Persecutor seems like a great idea...but I would probably play Ghostly Prison before I played Persecutor. Time is what you need to set-up equipped bears FTW and Prison should do that for you...

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Fundemental difference of opinion here. You think we need to force more time, force more interaction with the opponent. I think we need reduce our clock and force our opponent to interact with us.

I would much rather establish a fast clock and make the opponent force his plays, as opposed to putting hate and/or control cards in our deck that may or may not interact with all deck stragies in order to give us time to win with Bears.

Even " 'Da Bears " Had Mike Ditka - persecutor is our Ditka. Sometimes you need to force your opponent to deal with a threat, that way they have to have the control cards in THEIR deck in order interact with you.

(as a side note, sorry for the multi-quote, they are generally long and obnoxious, but I felt like there were a lot of things in saftey's post that should be talked about at length).

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Originally Posted by Dick Cheese

Tim, is your list posted anywhere? I keep seeing all these new efficient white beaters and I'm thinking it might be time for the weenies to make a comeback. between SFM, Squadron Hawk, and Accorder Paladin, seems like you could drop a nasty beating pretty quick.

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Not trying to hijack this thread: An old version of it is on Sally in the developing competitive section under Hate Crimes. I'm gonna post it here once I get some more tournaments with it. Here's the current list, from memory so it might not be 100% accurate as I've been tinkering with it quite a bit lately.

Hate Crimes
4 Aether Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares - might switch to Go for the Throat now that I'm running Vials again.
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring - Tutorable removal with E Tutor
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind

4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand - obviously any white fetch will work but I like to bluff Daze/Stife G1 if I don't have a turn one play
1 Karakas - Not as good without Weathered Wayfarer but still not bad
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
5 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Null Rod
2 Engineered Plague
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Meekstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

Edit: forgot to list the SB

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

No, this isn't really the issue I'm dealing with by adding a finisher. There are 2 fundemental issues that I'm trying to solve, one is the issue you mention - the other is the fact that we can't establish a clock, so opponents basically have infinite turns to develop a way to kill us - and if their win-con has a fast clock then we just loose.

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Haha, gotcha back by interupti-quoting, lol. I guess I didn't explain myself well enough: b/w can't really supply a clock early. Tombstalker could conceivably do it, but Bob makes Top neccessary...if your'e committed to Bob/Tops, then Tombstalker becomes viable. Abyssal Persecutor can do the same...but the deck runs lite on lands with around 20-22, and Percy is a 4-drop (and I'm not including the fact that Wasteland is really a non-land unless you're facing tribal matchups) If I'm going to play a 4-drop play, I want it to have more inevitability in it...maybe Elspeth #1.

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It's the combo decks that just wait out our bears that I have an issue with.

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What the hell do you think targeted discard is for? Lol, sorry, that sounded harsh...what i mean is this: that's why 5-6 md'd targeted discards is neccessary in a combo-heavy metagame. I would most likely play some targeted discard in the board, maybe 2 slots, but that's just how I roll...

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Equipment doesn't start to provide a clock until turn 5 at best, which is fine when you're in a position where you've stabalized board position, but it's bad if you're trying to be the aggro player.

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Another good argument for Elspeth


(Souls of the Faultless)

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It doesn't help with clock issues and it doesn't help against emmy or Pog. Basically it's only good in the same situations as Perish/Nature's ruin, but it's not as good as perish...

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Agreed, and just by saying that tells you how good Perish can be. At the very least, mentioning bad cards reminds you why good cards ARE good.

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I hate mom. She can't apply a clock and she's simply not aggressive enough. In my mind her flavor text reads "Kill me at your liesure, I'm going to sit here and drink tea"

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She makes your equipped bears unblockable, working WITH the equipment to make sure you're getting through in combat. I've said before that, as an aggro player, I would probably support a powerful 1-drop in this slot like Vampire Lacerator if you don't want her in the deck. This answers your problem: you need a clock, and if you're using bears, you'd better have A LOT of them...

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Fundemental difference of opinion here. You think we need to force more time, force more interaction with the opponent. I think we need reduce our clock and force our opponent to interact with us.

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You're talking aggro, which you sometimes need to be, but the deck doesn't function very well as an aggro deck. It's a mid-range deck. Stoneforge Mystic FORCES you to be a mid-range deck. Again, Elspeth is where I'd be looking for that mid-game push. If you want to be able to go aggro as easily as control, you're essentially conceding that you need early, efficient beaters. Is it wrong to suggest Tombstalker in the sideboard to replace Bob in these matchups?

Nice Ditka reference...I lol'd. If you're playing Percy, you need sac-effects. What are you thinking? CTherapies? Edicts? Gatekeepers?

alright - I've had enough of quotes. lol. Now everyone will just have to guess what I'm talking about - which means I'll be even more cryptic.

My argument is this - B/W can put on a clock - we have Dark Ritual. Tombstalker doesn't provide an early clock because there's nothing in the yard to Delve for. Percy Has a shot with Rit.

I have issues with elspeth. First thing, maybe I'm a little racist - but she's white. If I want to win fast I'm taking my lessons from the olympics and proffesional sports. Bottom line, I can't power her out with a ritual. She doesn't start getting there until turn 4 at best, probably 5 since white mana is a pain to get in the deck. I like my heavy black with white splash, it makes mana much simpler. Because of mana issues she's probably no faster than a piece of equipment or a Persecutor....she's a little more resilient, which is cool, but she's still white.

Targeted discard doesn't function well in a long game agaisnt a lot of control decks because of several cards, not the least of which are Brainstorm and Jace. It's great in the early game if you are trying to establish board position, but if your turn 1 'Seize reveals 4 draw spells and/or tutors and 3 land then you are probably pretty screwed if you can't apply a clock (I've had this happen a lot btw). This is the primary reason why I still run wastelands and Vindicate, because discard is not good enough on it's own to disrupt opponents in the current metagame.

I worked very hard to cut mom from this deck and I'm not going back, no matter how good your argument is...lol. Bottom line is this - removal in legacy is too good for mom to have an impact. She'll get there sometimes, but on most occaisions you're just delaying the innevitable. And if you start to use her to force guys into the red-zone or set up chump blocks, that's when you'll see removal - in response to the mom activation or directly to Mom after activation. Like any mom, she has her moments, but ultimately prolonged exposure to her just results in many hours on a couch talking about how she always held you back.

I am talking aggro. I am screaming aggo. I know that deadguy isn't aggro - it runs 10 discard spells and like 10 removal spells, it's so far from aggro that landstill blazes past it on a power chair. This is my very point, it's too friggin slow! lol. And I know this is how Deadguy has run for a long time, but...

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/q.../tradition.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Nice Ditka reference...I lol'd

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I was going to have my persecutor's altered to put Ditka's face on them - I figured it would be well worth it.

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/q...nkle/percy.jpg