[DTB] Vial Goblins

First, I'm testing different versions, mostly Rb with Frogtosser and without.

But I want to talk about a strange version. that takes advantage of a long forgotten card that in today's meta is becoming quite good: Mogg War Marshall.
That guy is incredible in doing many things:
- It's 2cc, which fits the curve nicely
- him alone makes Piledriver a reasonable threat
- It works wonders with Gempalm Incinerator
- It stalls tarmogoyfs like noone in monored, being a full 3 turns fog against a Goyf.
- It has somewhat a synergy with Siege Gang, but when we have a siege gang in play we've most likely won anyway.

That opens to a completely different approach against goyf.dec for monored decks: instead of MDing graveyard hate you can just outnumber your opponent, burying him on CA. I'm playing with 23 lands, 4 Gempalms, 3 Fanatic, 3 War Marshall, 1 Stingscourger, 2 SGC and the usual suspects.
Right now I'm 4-0 against UGW bant aggro and 3-0 against UGwb countertop.

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Mogg War Marshal

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Everytime I see him, it is in some pile of mono red goblins/sligh junk. But, I have to admit, he can do some interesting trades, generating CA through his board advantage.

2cc for 3 permanents is really nothing to scoff at. He is a board generating junkie.

I have no idea what card I'd be willing to sacrifice to play this guy though.



peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by 4eak

I have no idea what card I'd be willing to sacrifice to play this guy though.

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Here's what I'm playing:
// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

I've killed a good number of Goyfs and Tombstalkers with incinerator (with fanatic and War Marshal it becomes a lot better), so I took out Stingscourger, that can take the slot of Sharpshooter or a Tinkerer in the board.

Aye, I know which cards could be removed, I mean to say, I don't think they'd be worth removing. Marshal's synergy isn't powerful enough to merit the slot. I'd be really hard pressed to pass on the silver bullet singletons for him. I'll test it, but I have a feeling Marshall is just another Goblin on the unused options list for the 3-4 available metaslots.

It definitely seems a worthier card in mono red builds. But, it is still competing for the 3rd SGC, Sharpshooter, and Tinkerer slot in my mind. It could replace Stingscourger in lots of ways though, as you'd be much less tempo reliant.





peace,
4eak

And with it instead of Stingscourers you have a much more dificult time agains't Dreadnought/Stalker/Terravore...
Don't know about that...

If you going to play mogg war marshalls, I would like to see at least 1 skirk prospector and 1 sharpshooter. This way you have the ability to set up the combo kill. :)

Very interesting GreenOne. Maybe we should toss in a few Mad Aunties, that way the trade turns out insanely favorable. The problem again is space as its probably already hard to fit in the Mogg Warmarshalls.

But all crappy suggestions aside, it looks on the surface as though you have come up with one of the best Goblins list I have seen. Thanks for sharing it and Ill keep you updated on my testing.

The list does look good, really, but guess I still prefer, for monoRed, the list posted by avatara, lots of pages back. The shell is the same, but SB changed:

// Lands
15 [9E] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
3 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

With 25 lands, you can always do what you want. Mutavaults are insanely good. They don't care about mass removals, and pump gempalm/piledriver.
Seriously, playing with 25 lands makes the deck fell diferent. 4 Wastes, 3 ports, 3 mutas, and still gets to play with 15 mountains, like GreenOne's list.
For the side, I guess we both agree on Liege and Knesis, the rest is a matter of taste.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

With 25 lands, you can always do what you want. Mutavaults are insanely good. They don't care about mass removals, and pump gempalm/piledriver.
Seriously, playing with 25 lands makes the deck fell diferent. 4 Wastes, 3 ports, 3 mutas, and still gets to play with 15 mountains, like GreenOne's list.
For the side, I guess we both agree on Liege and Knesis, the rest is a matter of taste.

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I get the reasoning behind the 25 lands, and I like it in decks with such a high curve.
What I don't get is:
- 4 Gempalm incinerators - this deck plays a lot less turn 1-2 drops so, unless you got a Lackey going, seems like you can't cycle the Gempalm in the early game. It surely does its thing from turn 4 on, so 3x is probably a better number in this deck.
- Sharpshooter - without the fanatics, why play this maindeck?

yeah, maybe 1 Gempalm could be the 4th Siege-Gang or something.
About the Sharpshooter, that is just my thing. There's too much goblins around here, and he is still great to kill confidants, shades, pushing dmg trough moat/propaganda... I always put 1 of them in my lists...

I've yet to hear a good explanation in Mono-Red or any other list why Mutavault isn't just about the worst idea ever conceived. It's a manland that slightly pumps Gempalm, slightly pumps Piledriver if for some reason you aren't dropping out hasted threats to do this more efficiently, and just generally doesn't really seem to do a whole lot other than render Standstill even more awful against Goblins.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I've yet to hear a good explanation in Mono-Red or any other list why Mutavault isn't just about the worst idea ever conceived. It's a manland that slightly pumps Gempalm, slightly pumps Piledriver if for some reason you aren't dropping out hasted threats to do this more efficiently, and just generally doesn't really seem to do a whole lot other than render Standstill even more awful against Goblins.

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It survives sweepers? But I agree, it looks bad. But it does create a body when you have nothing to do with your mana. Which does happen, when you run out of steam and are just turning bodies for the kill.

But the #1 reason. Goblins has always been a tribal deck. Tribal lands just makes it cooler.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I've yet to hear a good explanation in Mono-Red or any other list why Mutavault isn't just about the worst idea ever conceived. It's a manland that slightly pumps Gempalm, slightly pumps Piledriver if for some reason you aren't dropping out hasted threats to do this more efficiently, and just generally doesn't really seem to do a whole lot other than render Standstill even more awful against Goblins.

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It starts with the idea that other then a Lackey and a Vial at 4-5 the scariest thing in goblins is curving out the mana base.

If you agree with that, running a high amount of lands is a good thing. Then, you only need so many mountains and you start looking at utility lands, an extra goblin that survives sweepers is a really good option.

Only after you are already running 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Port should you even consider any other non-mountain lands. Essentially, Mutavault would be replacing Mountains when you are already running 8 colorless sources. This could be a huge strain on the mana base, and I think it would make the deck less consistent in several ways.

I'm not sure what is so important about the card anyways. We already have a great match against other tribal decks (whereby we could abuse their pump effects). We already have fantastic tools to play under Standstill (in fact, we often play better under standstill than our opponent). Synergy with Piledriver seems poor--as by the time I'm Piledriving, I'm usually already winning. And, I think there are just better choices for making Incinerator a better card. Let our other CA generators help us defeat board sweeping.

If Mutavault could be Ringleader'd then it might be a different story. Overall though, beyond destabilizing your mana-base, the card is fairly mana intensive itself, and I generally have better ways to be spending that mana.




peace,
4eak

That sounds like a whole lot of theorycraft right there, have you even tried the card?

+Helps you curve out
+Helps with Piledriver/Incinerator - Yes, when you already got a board full of goblins this is neglectable, but Mutavault is a card that does good when you aren'twinning.
+Survives sweepers
+This is circle reasoning - but it also gives you something to do with your mana in topdeck mode when things aren't going good
+Great versus decks that try to lock you
+Good vs tribal decks

Honestly, in a mono red list, what would you rather run instead of it? It's not there instead of other lands, it's there instead of 3 of your spells with youl still got (4*Matron, 4* Lackey, 4* Ringleader, 4* Piledriver, 4* Incinerator, 3*SGC, 4* Warchief 14 mountains, 4 port 4 wasteland 4 Vial) 60-49 = 7 free spots to use. IMO Stingscourger is a must if you play mono red and after that I prefer Mutavault over the other options. Because it just offers that much more.

Well, the fact that mutavault is mutavault isn't really that important, I think. It just gives you some utility lands while still allowing your deck to consisently curve out.

@ Nessaja

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That sounds like a whole lot of theorycraft right there, have you even tried the card?

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Theorycraft, yet you've copied several of my points in your own argument. Be specific then, what do you think I irrelevantly made up?

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Helps you curve out

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Sure. It is a mana sink. I find Goblins curves out fairly well already, especially when you are playing full Ports and Wasteland. There are also many situations where I just don't activate this land because I don't want to chance losing my land drop for the turn.

If curving out is a problem in Mono Red lists, then just run a bit less land and more tempo cards like Stingscourger.

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Helps with Piledriver/Incinerator

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He's also expensive to activate. The turns I'm using Incerator or dropping/swinging with Piledriver are often mana intensive turns that often wouldn't allow me to activate this card.

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Survives sweepers

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Goblins has a pretty good games against decks which are sweeping the board. Our mana denial, abuse of Aether Vial, and constant CA generation gives us an even match against most control decks. This isn't a good enough reason.

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Great versus decks that try to lock you

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Which decks lock out goblins? The vast majority of those decks play Wasteland or Moat-like cards. Good answers to this card.

Krosan Grip (with careful use of fetchlands) is the best card against these decks. Discard is also stronger than Mutavault.

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Good vs tribal decks

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Which tribal deck needed help again? The only Tribal deck I fear is Counterslivers, and I'll grant you that one deck. The rest are completely in my favor, especially with Sharpshooter. This effect isn't necessary; we already have the upperhand.

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Honestly, in a mono red list, what would you rather run instead of it?

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If I was going to play Mono Red, and lose the options provided by another color, mainly for the sake of maximizing the stability of my mana base, I certainly wouldn't be watering it down with man-lands.

I think these cards deserve play before Mutavault:

Mogg Fanatic
Stingscourger
Goblin Tinkerer
Goblin Sharpshooter
Relic of Progenitus
Rishadan port
oh, and Mountain.

All of these cards are more appealing. I'll grant Mutavault gives us options, they just aren't as good as the options provided by the above list of silver bullets or the consistency provided by Fanatic, Mountains and mana denial.

This card isn't really curbing our weaknesses. If I'm relying on Mutavault, then I either should have mulliganed or I'm probably already going to lose.







peace,
4eak

I kind of agree with 4eak. And I think I'd actually rather have Mishra's Factory than Mutavault if I were going to run a manland. Factories do everything you listed except pump Incinerator/Driver. Factories block better. Factories dodge Plague. Factories get huge in multiples. etc.

That said, you can't ever have too many red sources when there's a Warchief in play and you're doing insane stuff. My manabase would be 4 Waste, 4 Port, and about 16 Mountains.

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Originally Posted by 4eak

@ Nessaja
Theorycraft, yet you've copied several of my points in your own argument. Be specific then, what do you think I irrelevantly made up?

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Copied? I've been repeating these points ever since I added them in the deck. You name all the strong points of the card and then claim them to be insignificant, exactly what you're doing in this post as well. I ask; have you tested this? Are these point really as insignificant as you think.

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If curving out is a problem in Mono Red lists, then just run a bit less land and more tempo cards like Stingscourger.

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Sting is only a part of the mana curve when you hit a first turn lackey. But that wasn't what I meant - hitting 5 mana and having a land drop each turn is "curving out".

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Goblins has a pretty good games against decks which are sweeping the board. Our mana denial, abuse of Aether Vial, and constant CA generation gives us an even match against most control decks. This isn't a good enough reason.

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Really? My games tend to be quite different. Sweepers don't require much more then a simple Pyroclasm. Mana denial only brings you so far in that scenario. Mutavault isn't only a goblin that isn't effected by this sweeper, it also helps you build up again. You need to be hitting land drops if you want to recover from a sweep without Vial.

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Which decks lock out goblins? The vast majority of those decks play Wasteland or Moat-like cards. Good answers to this card.

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I was pretty much talking about landstill here. I believe Mutavaults are good in this matchup. As well as in the Merfolk matchup and the sliver matchup. Mutavault is never a dead card.

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Krosan Grip (with careful use of fetchlands) is the best card against these decks. Discard is also stronger than Mutavault.

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That's Rg

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Which tribal deck needed help again? The only Tribal deck I fear is Counterslivers, and I'll grant you that one deck. The rest are completely in my favor, especially with Sharpshooter. This effect isn't necessary; we already have the upperhand.

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I find Sharpshooter to be much more conditional then Mutavault. Besides, they have a completely different role. Sharpshooter isn't maindeck material as it quite simply blows in a whole lot of matchups, Mutavault is decent against a lot.

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If I was going to play Mono Red, and lose the options provided by another color, mainly for the sake of maximizing the stability of my mana base, I certainly wouldn't be watering it down with man-lands.

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Except you wouldn't be adding the Mutavaults instead of your resilent lands but rather in addition to. Completely moot point.

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Mogg Fanatic
Stingscourger
Goblin Tinkerer
Goblin Sharpshooter
Relic of Progenitus
Rishadan port
oh, and Mountain.

All of these cards are more appealing. They're either silver bullets or improve consistency against all decks. I'll grant Mutavault gives us options, they just aren't as good.

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Alright- so I already included Port Stingscourger and sufficient amount of mountains in the list. That leaves us with Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, Relic and Mogg Fanatic.

I believe that all of those cards provide you less flexibilty and utility then Mutavault. As well as the amount of MU's they do good in.

As for Factory, fair point. Though I do think the interaction with Piledriver and Gempalm is strong enough to choose mutavault over it.

@ Nessaja

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You name all the strong points of the card and then claim them to be insignificant, exactly what you're doing in this post as well.

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Yes, I brought up its strengths and said, "these strengths aren't relevant enough".

It isn't like I've called the card outright useless, just not important enough to see play. I haven't found those strengths to contribute nearly as much as you have.

The point was that it sounds odd to accuse me of theorycrafting because we've basically outlined the same strengths (even if we have differing opinions on just how relevant those strengths might be).

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Sting is only a part of the mana curve when you hit a first turn lackey.

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I find Sting a bit more versatile than that.

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But that wasn't what I meant - hitting 5 mana and having a land drop each turn is "curving out".

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Getting to 5 lands in 5 turns isn't the only option. The more tempo-oriented cards you play, the more turns you'll buy yourself to draw cards and make those land drops.

I'd strike the "land drop each turn" and add "using all of your land resources each turn". Curving the deck out is about maximizing the mana resources you actually have each turn, not necessarily about making land drops or increasing your average mana pool.

Whether or not you move to 22 lands or not isn't the issue though. There are other ways to make sure you are tapping out each turn.

You still haven't addressed the point that in poorly curved circumstances, you often won't be activating a manland, even if the mana was available, simply because you couldn't afford to lose the mana source. If you are having trouble building up to drop a 3 or 4cc card, then you often won't be taking the risk of opening your mana-base up to creature removal in the first place.

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You need to be hitting land drops if you want to recover from a sweep without Vial.

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Make your land drops, but make them Mountains. You'll still be wanting every red source you can get to empty your hands through Warchief after a sweep.

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I was pretty much talking about landstill here. I believe Mutavaults are good in this matchup. As well as in the Merfolk matchup and the sliver matchup. Mutavault is never a dead card.

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Mutavault is just worse than mountain against decks running Wasteland. We have cycling, Vial, early dudes, and mana-denial which excels against their opposing man-land/standstill based strategies. We need to maintain our mana bases in these matches and pressure our opponent, not open ourselves up any further to their mana denial.

Merfolk doesn't need the help, and Slivers is already heavily in their favor. I'm failing to see where Mutavault was necessary.

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That's Rg

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That's the point. If you are going to lower the stability of Mono-Red by playing Man-lands in the first place, which is essentially the only good reason to play mono red, then you might as well just be splashing for a better answer than Mutavault.

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I find Sharpshooter to be much more conditional then Mutavault. Besides, they have a completely different role. Sharpshooter isn't maindeck material as it quite simply blows in a whole lot of matchups, Mutavault is decent against a lot.

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Again, you missed the principle of what I said. Our Tribal matches do not need help! Running Mutavault has no real effect in this match. We are either heavily favored (the vast majority of tribal decks) or heavily unfavored (slivers, where Mutavault still won't matter, as they'll still block us into oblivion).

Sharpshooter wins ground wars all over the place. He has high synergy with the removal in this deck. He's very main deckable.

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Except you wouldn't be adding the Mutavaults instead of your resilent lands but rather in addition to. Completely moot point.

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No. It isn't moot. If I went mono red, I would play Mountains before I would play Mutavaults. That was the whole point of going Mono Red in the first place. Otherwise, you should be splashing for another color.

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Alright- so I already included Port Stingscourger and sufficient amount of mountains in the list.

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Sufficient means you've got as many lands as you need to run, and all but 8 of them are Mountains. You are playing Mono Red to see Mountains, not Mutavaults.





peace,
4eak