Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Some decks do die to removal, however. If you play a deck with a limited number of threats, like say, RUG Delver, if you face a deck that can withstand the mana disruption that also plays enough removal to handle your few threats, then you will lose more often than not to that deck.
Obviously a deck consisting of nothing but creature removal would not be favored against the combo decks of this format. But even so, decks like that have a niche in a creature-heavy metagame. Look at IBA's Train Wreck deck, or his Mono-White Control deck.
And the decks in question right now are the BG or B decks that play discard spells in addition to removal. Playing Darkblast does not require a massive investment on the part of the BG or B player.
Now you're just talking about answers to answers. It's the graveyard hate vs. Nature's Claim/Ray of Revelation argument from dredge discussions.
Are you just here to argue that this deck dies to a niche deck with niche removal, or do you have some actual valid discussion to actually contribute to this thread? Arguing over the "Dies to removal" issue is not in my mind a valid argument because that line of reasoning can be applied to every deck in existence...
Storm dies to trickbind and stifle.
Enchantress dies to universal enchantment destruction as well as individual enchantment destruction.
Counterbalance decks die to Vials as well as enchantment destruction that gets past their balance.
creature based decks obviously die to creature removal.
there is no universal end all deck that is invincible to each and every single answer in existence. That would be really stupid of Wizards to print a set of cards that are that universally immune to other cards. And the instant they did print such a set of cards the game as we know it would DIE. There would be no reason not to play that deck as opposed to any other deck. Simply put, an invincible deck would be the only viable deck in any given format.
Simply put, the whole dies to removal argument is a logical fallacy that should never be argued in realistic terms because the instant you have a deck that doesn't die to removal, then that deck will dominate the format.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Well, we aren't going to get anywhere this way. I think that Abrupt Decay is going to make things difficult in the short run. Even the storm decks are packing them and leaning heavily upon them. Strangely, while I had been thinking that Deathrite Shaman was going to be very hard on Dredge and Reanimator, I have been thinking that I want graveyard hate to use against Shaman as long as it is not getting in the way of offense. But I am betting that in a few months things will even out again. We are going to see more Tombstalkers and probably even more Jace. I am thinking that if the meta starts to turn that way, I want even more graveyard hate. Interestingly enough, it is Leyline of the Void that looks strongest. But I bet that we have enough bombs to keep their Decays choosing which evil to vanquish.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Well, we aren't going to get anywhere this way. I think that Abrupt Decay is going to make things difficult in the short run. Even the storm decks are packing them and leaning heavily upon them. Strangely, while I had been thinking that Deathrite Shaman was going to be very hard on Dredge and Reanimator, I have been thinking that I want graveyard hate to use against Shaman as long as it is not getting in the way of offense. But I am betting that in a few months things will even out again. We are going to see more Tombstalkers and probably even more Jace. I am thinking that if the meta starts to turn that way, I want even more graveyard hate. Interestingly enough, it is Leyline of the Void that looks strongest. But I bet that we have enough bombs to keep their Decays choosing which evil to vanquish.
So Rest in Peace in the sideboard seems to be enough, though, right?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I think most of us are betting on it. As the disruption creatures have gotten progressively stronger for this deck, the graveyard hosers have become a less prominent part of the deck over time in favor of broader disruption. RiP seems to be a godsend for that. It is so over the top powerful that stuff like RUG, which used to usually shrug off graveyard hate is completely neutered by this card. ANT is also seriously hampered by it, where other forms of graveyard hate are not particularly good against it. Even against Nic Fit, which is not usually thought of as a graveyard deck, this card makes sense. No more Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy flashback, Vengevine, Sun Titan, Yosei, and plenty of other random would-be bombs they pack. I remember that it was unclear if it was worth bothering with Tormod's Crypt in some decks, but this card puts that concern to rest.
In fact, I think it is too good in a sense. Dredge and Reanimator pilots have traded in their Ancient Grudges for Reverent Silences or Ray of Revelations. If all or most graveyard hate looks the same, it makes it much easier to overcome. So we just have to see.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Ok, so I'm relatively new to this deck, just picked up my own copy of it a few weeks ago, and it's been a ton of fun.
I just have a few questions about how to mulligan with the deck. Assuming we're using a relative stock deck list:
Question 1:
Would you mulligan this hand blind on the play?
Wasteland
Rishidan Port
Aether Vial
Swords to Plowshares
Thalia
Flickerwisp
Mangara of the Corondor
Question 2:
Would you mulligan this hand blind on the play?
Karakas
Wasteland
Phyrexian Revoker
Thalia
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Flickerwisp
Just looking for some educated opinions from veteran pilots of the deck. Any feedback would be great!
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
So, has anyone actually tried out Spellskite to deal with the problems Abrupt Decay causes? I maindecked 2 yesterday at Mythic Games, and it caused considerable problems for the Junk deck I faced, especially when he had an Engineered Plague set on human, which deactivated my Mother of Runes. Abrupt Decay gets redirected, Swords does, and hell, even attacking with them having an active Maze of Ith can actually allow your flying sword-carrying dude hit. It's proven me to be a fantastic late game card in the grindy matchups, especially against Junk.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brooksy01
So, has anyone actually tried out Spellskite to deal with the problems Abrupt Decay causes? I maindecked 2 yesterday at Mythic Games, and it caused considerable problems for the Junk deck I faced, especially when he had an Engineered Plague set on human, which deactivated my Mother of Runes. Abrupt Decay gets redirected, Swords does, and hell, even attacking with them having an active Maze of Ith can actually allow your flying sword-carrying dude hit. It's proven me to be a fantastic late game card in the grindy matchups, especially against Junk.
What would you cut in order to add Spellskite?
While Spellskite certainly has some interesting interactions with removal cards in the format, I don't think these interactions are all that beneficial when compared with other cards in the deck. For example I would rather run Mother of Runes over Spellskite if only for the fact that a Mom can be played for less than a spellskite can and doesn't require 2 life or 1 blue mana to activate.
In fact the only advantage I can see Spellskite offering over Mom is the ability to redirect Colorless effects onto itself.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I actually added Spellskite in the slots typically given to Dryad Militant/Judge's Familiar (Both meta-call cards for me) as a 2 of, and another beneficial factor it gives aside from the redirection of removal is the redirection of artifact hate. Another interesting application I noticed for Spellskite is in post board situations where Dread of Night and Engineered Plague set on human can potentially enter the field, both of which remove Mother of Runes from the equation.
I mean, it warrants further testing on my end to see if it's actually worth giving a slot to permanently, but it pulled it's weight for me in the Junk matchup when I faced it this past weekend, which makes me want to keep testing it, even to see if it's worth a 1-of on an ET board.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey, quit playing Legacy for two years, but I'm back and I've noticed some key changes. A few questions:
Batterskull- Seems kinda bad without SFM. Why it over a Sword of X and Y?
Judges Familiar- I tested the sample list and found I like these, but is there a reason we run them over other stuff?
Jotun Grunt- Where did he go? I realize he doesn't hinder the meta like he used too, but its still a solid beater. I'm assuming he went to the backseat for some reason or another.
Overall the games I've played today proved that the deck has power, and I still love the deck itself. I look forward to taking D+T to various SCGs and GPs.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LegacyDan
Hey, quit playing Legacy for two years, but I'm back and I've noticed some key changes. A few questions:
Batterskull- Seems kinda bad without SFM. Why it over a Sword of X and Y?
Judges Familiar- I tested the sample list and found I like these, but is there a reason we run them over other stuff?
Jotun Grunt- Where did he go? I realize he doesn't hinder the meta like he used too, but its still a solid beater. I'm assuming he went to the backseat for some reason or another.
Overall the games I've played today proved that the deck has power, and I still love the deck itself. I look forward to taking D+T to various SCGs and GPs.
Simple reason for Batterskull is because when combined with Stoneforge Mystic it either causes the opponent to waste a removal spell on Stoneforge Mystic that they wouldn't normally waste on such a card, or it comes into play off of the Stoneforge Mystic and generally proceeds to win you the game. Additionally it is not impossible to cast this card without the stoneforge mystic. I have done it on occasion. It just generally isn't very efficient to do so. That said, the interactions between Batterskull and Flickerwisp are also quite impressive.
With regard to Judge's Familiar, generally speaking that card is used to help with the mana denial package. Judge's Familiar can help clench the storm match up in our favor in a way that neither Thalia or Ethersworn Canonist is able to do on their own. This is because with Judge's Familiar you are able to effectively disrupt one of the Storm Deck's mana ramp spells. This is especially important if you manage to get the Judge's Familiar into play alongside of a Thalia whereby the mana disruption package is just even more potent. Additionally these two cards next to a Rishadan Port suddenly become just absolutely game breaking.
With regard to Jotun Grunt, he has effectively been replaced by the card Rest in Peace, which does everything that our old graveyard removal did and then some.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey guys.
I make my post in this thread since i think my deck is more like D'n'T than deadguy.
i just played a local tournament and find the deck pretty strong vs other creature decks and combo. but i lost to UW and Sneak'n show. i should have won the first game vs UW but made a couple of stupid moves. and didn't get my vials for game 2. i think UW is the biggest problem since they can bring in disenchants, pithing needles and more. these cards gave me a hard time game 2. what to do? just win game 1 and hope for a win game 2 or 3?
vs. Sneak'n show i feel its about how quick he can go off. needles and revokers orbviously take out sneak attack and O-ring is good for show and tell.
now my question is do we have a card in these matchups that's the boss?
heres my list:
Creatures: 24
4x Dark confidant
4x Mother of runes
3x Stoneforge mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of thraben
2x Hidehollow sculler
4x Serra Avenger
2x Mangara of corondor
2x Flickerwisp
artifacts 7
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
4x Æthervial
Instans: 4
4x Plowshares
Sorceries: 5
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of kozilek
lands 20
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
4x Flat marsh
1x Bloodstained mire
1x Verdant catacomb
1x Arid mesa
3x Plain
1x swamps
sideboard: 15
1x Rest in peace
1x Relic of progenitus
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Duress
1x Sword of feast and famine
1x Engineered plague
2x Oblivion ring
1x Path to exile
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing needle
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Extirpate
Round: 1. Loose 0-2 vs. U/W Miracles
Round: 2. Win 2-1 vs. Abyssal Persecutor deck.
Round: 3. Win 2-0 vs. Maverick
Round: 4. Loose 1-2 vs. Sneak'n Show.
btw. i wanna bring in an extra karakas. and maybe make a couple of changes for my SB. any surgestions?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
attemanden
Hey guys.
I make my post in this thread since i think my deck is more like D'n'T than deadguy.
Creatures: 24
4x Dark confidant
4x Mother of runes
3x Stoneforge mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of thraben
2x Hidehollow sculler
4x Serra Avenger
2x Mangara of corondor
2x Flickerwisp
artifacts 7
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
4x Æthervial
Instans: 4
4x Plowshares
Sorceries: 5
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of kozilek
lands 20
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
4x Flat marsh
1x Bloodstained mire
1x Verdant catacomb
1x Arid mesa
3x Plain
1x swamps
sideboard: 15
1x Rest in peace
1x Relic of progenitus
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Duress
1x Sword of feast and famine
1x Engineered plague
2x Oblivion ring
1x Path to exile
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing needle
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Extirpate
With the Bob's, and all the hand hate, it's Dead Guy, not D&T.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fry
With the Bob's, and all the hand hate, it's Dead Guy, not D&T.
I beg to differ. That deck only has... 7 dedicated discard spells, one of them is Tidehallow Sculler. As for the Bob's, that is a card that has been in BW Death and Taxes from time to time. Though BW Death and Taxes is extremely rare as both UW and GW Death and Taxes are far more common. That said, the list as it stands definitely has more in common with Death and Taxes than it does with the stereotypical Deadguy deck. Mainly because the deck utilizes the Mangara Lock, less removal spells and the Thalia combination. So I would be happy to include it in this thread. (also is the fact that many Deadguy decks are now actually just BWG Rock decks).
That said, looking over the list there are a few concerns I have. First, why only 3 Stoneforges? I would think you would want to get that Batterskull out of your deck ASAP so you don't rim shot yourself for 5 off of the Dark Confidents. Also, you really want to be running more Flickerwisps. Especially if you are running Tidehallow Sculler's. Afterall Flickerwisp can essentially make Tidehallow Sculler double as effective as it normally would be, and make one of it's effects permanent to boot. The thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek while useful, are really going to slow your game down. I would personally cut them. While discard is nice, it is not the best part of this deck. The Tidehallow Scullers should be all the discard you will need. Especially if you up them to 4 instead of just 2.
Cut the Relic of Progenitus and Duress in the sideboard and add in 2 more Rest in Peace (they really are just that good). Cut the needle for a 3rd Revoker (Revoker is just better). And cut the Path to Exile for a 3rd Enlightened Tutor. Other than that the list looks really good.
EDIT: Also I would highly suggest cutting the non-marsh flats Fetch Lands in favor of 3 more Karakas. But thats just me.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Hey again. i really likes your comments on flickerwisp and tidehollow sculler and i will try it out right away. as for STM i think i can cut one. i dont want my hand to be full of them and one often seems enough. i can protect it with discard and mom's. also i want a lot of cards in this deck and thats just a card i think i can cut.
as for SB i was actaully thinking about cutting relic, needle and duress so thats cool you confirm. but what about O-rings? should i cut one? and what do you guys do vs. show and tell?
what i like about the discard package is that it helps a lot vs all kind of blue decks. and there are a lot of them. also inquisition of kozilek is more or less a creature removal spell for 1 mana, in creature matchups.
discard also helps me vs. miracles, but maybe there are other ways around?
thanks for the comments so far :)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
attemanden
Hey again. i really likes your comments on flickerwisp and tidehollow sculler and i will try it out right away. as for STM i think i can cut one. i dont want my hand to be full of them and one often seems enough. i can protect it with discard and mom's. also i want a lot of cards in this deck and thats just a card i think i can cut.
as for SB i was actaully thinking about cutting relic, needle and duress so thats cool you confirm. but what about O-rings? should i cut one? and what do you guys do vs. show and tell?
what i like about the discard package is that it helps a lot vs all kind of blue decks. and there are a lot of them. also inquisition of kozilek is more or less a creature removal spell for 1 mana, in creature matchups.
discard also helps me vs. miracles, but maybe there are other ways around?
thanks for the comments so far :)
The problem with cutting Stoneforge Mystic is that Stoneforge Mystic is really the most efficient way to play Batterskull. And right now Batterskull really is the best equipment that Death and Taxes (of any sort) happens to have. Unfortunately your deck is running so many things that cause life loss to you (Thoughtseizes, Dark Confidant, Fetchlands) that flipping Batterskull to a Dark Confidant and not having a Stoneforge Mystic or 5 mana producing lands available to immediately cast it will ultimately lose you the game due to hurting yourself more than your opponent hurts you. Thus it is actually in your best interest to have the maximum number of Stoneforge Mystics that you can have so that you can search for the Batterskull before you flip it over on a Dark Confidant draw, that way you don't take 5 damage from one of your own cards.
If you are worried about Show and Tell, then I highly recommend you keep the O-Rings. Those cards can be brutal if you put them into play off of a Show and Tell :D
As for the discard package vs. Blue decks... yes, discard does help against blue decks. But so does Æther Vial, as does Thalia, as does the new card Judges Familiar. There are a lot of things even within Mono-White Death and Taxes that help with Blue decks. The only blue deck that Mono-White Death and Taxes really has a problem with at the moment is UWx Miracles. I still say if your going to run black for bobs and discard, that the only discard you really need is Tidehallow Sculler. Anything else just cuts cards that are more important to the deck's core payload.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
I beg to differ. That deck only has... 7 dedicated discard spells, one of them is Tidehallow Sculler. As for the Bob's, that is a card that has been in BW Death and Taxes from time to time. Though BW Death and Taxes is extremely rare as both UW and GW Death and Taxes are far more common. That said, the list as it stands definitely has more in common with Death and Taxes than it does with the stereotypical Deadguy deck. Mainly because the deck utilizes the Mangara Lock, less removal spells and the Thalia combination. So I would be happy to include it in this thread. (also is the fact that many Deadguy decks are now actually just BWG Rock decks).
That said, looking over the list there are a few concerns I have. First, why only 3 Stoneforges? I would think you would want to get that Batterskull out of your deck ASAP so you don't rim shot yourself for 5 off of the Dark Confidents. Also, you really want to be running more Flickerwisps. Especially if you are running Tidehallow Sculler's. Afterall Flickerwisp can essentially make Tidehallow Sculler double as effective as it normally would be, and make one of it's effects permanent to boot. The thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek while useful, are really going to slow your game down. I would personally cut them. While discard is nice, it is not the best part of this deck. The Tidehallow Scullers should be all the discard you will need. Especially if you up them to 4 instead of just 2.
Cut the Relic of Progenitus and Duress in the sideboard and add in 2 more Rest in Peace (they really are just that good). Cut the needle for a 3rd Revoker (Revoker is just better). And cut the Path to Exile for a 3rd Enlightened Tutor. Other than that the list looks really good.
EDIT: Also I would highly suggest cutting the non-marsh flats Fetch Lands in favor of 3 more Karakas. But thats just me.
I hope you´ll excuse, but I cannot resist the urge.
You beg to differ between BW Death and Taxes and state one paragraph below, that many DGA decks are now "actually just BGW Rock" decks. What the hell? Now i guess it´s my turn to beg to differ. There are currently two trends regarding DGA: The Vial-Version and the Greensplash-Version.
The Vialversion indeed is extremly similar to the above posted BW Death and Taxes Deck. The only difference between them are the Flickerwisps and the Mangaras. Everything else is, of course with slight variances, the same. You also mention, that the BW DnT Deck has only seven dedicated discard spells, which would be an indicator for having more in common with DnT then with the "stereotypical" DGA Deck. But currently discussed DGA build do not have much more discard then that. The times in which DGA would take a playset of Thoughtseize, Hymn and Cabal Therapy has long passed. Therefore, the above posted BW DnT build does have more in common with DGA then with DnT.
The other point I´d like to adress is the statement, that most DGA Decks are "actually BGW Rock" Decks. As mentioned above, there indeed is a Version of DGA splashing green. Mainreason for that is the (ab)use of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. As you easily will see, no KotR, no Eternal Witness, no Pernicious Deed, no Maelstrom Pulse (Perhaps sometimes as a one-off).
All in all, to say, that current Versions of DGA are "actually similar" to Rock, but the posted BW DnT Deck is not nearly as similar to DGA as it is to DnT is... bold and adaventurous.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valech
I hope you´ll excuse, but I cannot resist the urge.
You beg to differ between BW Death and Taxes and state one paragraph below, that many DGA decks are now "actually just BGW Rock" decks. What the hell? Now i guess it´s my turn to beg to differ. There are currently two trends regarding DGA: The Vial-Version and the Greensplash-Version.
The Vialversion indeed is extremly similar to the above posted BW Death and Taxes Deck. The only difference between them are the Flickerwisps and the Mangaras. Everything else is, of course with slight variances, the same. You also mention, that the BW DnT Deck has only seven dedicated discard spells, which would be an indicator for having more in common with DnT then with the "stereotypical" DGA Deck. But currently discussed DGA build do not have much more discard then that. The times in which DGA would take a playset of Thoughtseize, Hymn and Cabal Therapy has long passed. Therefore, the above posted BW DnT build does have more in common with DGA then with DnT.
The other point I´d like to adress is the statement, that most DGA Decks are "actually BGW Rock" Decks. As mentioned above, there indeed is a Version of DGA splashing green. Mainreason for that is the (ab)use of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. As you easily will see, no KotR, no Eternal Witness, no Pernicious Deed, no Maelstrom Pulse (Perhaps sometimes as a one-off).
All in all, to say, that current Versions of DGA are "actually similar" to Rock, but the posted BW DnT Deck is not nearly as similar to DGA as it is to DnT is... bold and adaventurous.
While I acknowledge that you are correct and that I mispoke regarding Deadguy Ale's types and I apologize for that. I do not retract my statement that the list in question has more in common with Death and Taxes than it does with Deadguy Ale. This is in part because of the inclusion of Mangara and Flickerwisp, but also because the owner of the deck has stated that it is his intention to be building a Black-White Death and Taxes and not a Deadguy Ale deck by posting it in this thread and not the Deadguy Ale thread. I have every intention of helping him with that goal. So I would appreciate it if you did not further derail this thread with discussion of Deadguy Ale that does not belong here.
If you have something to contribute to either Mono-White Death and Taxes, Green-White Death and Taxes, Blue-White Death and Taxes, or Black-White Death and Taxes (and yes all of these color variants have been tried and yes they are all different from the decks GW Maverick, UW Tempo, and Vial Deadguy) then please contribute. But if your only purpose here is to derail the thread then I will ask you to leave.
And honestly, please learn the history of the Rock. The Modern Versions of known as BGW Rock, have next to nothing in common with the historical versions of the Rock.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Complete resistance to Flashfires
