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I run carpet in my sideboard flex spots when I expect allot of RUG, and it has always been good for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Slayer
I haven't tested Ignorant Bliss but it seems terrible. On the draw it stops neither Hymn or cc1 discard, it also forces you to fetch out a red dual early which is not something I want to do against a wasteland deck like JUND. If Hymn is that big in your meta I feel like you better off running Divert, which I did test and was underwhelming.
On the question of ignorant bliss, is it worth playing without a way to tutor for it? As a two of I doubt we will have it in hand when we want it.
Why would you waste a tutor-effect for ignorant bliss over something that really matters? Would you keep a Bliss in your ponder paired with crap or shuffle to draw something like Infernal or LED?Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
@ Ignorant Bliss
I like it, i switch them with confis all the time. For the GP Strassburg i use 2 bliss+other hate for 4 confis.
I mean when the oppenent play a Hymn or a Thoughtseize etc. the discard goes into nothing and with confi can he discard still a good card and the BoBs can be handle with removal.
Sometimes you don't draw that what you needed with the BoB...
I prefer Bliss.
How does Bliss help you drawing "what you need"? How does it help you against Thoughtseize Turn 1/2 unless you are willing to waste a Petal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
The only cards you mind being discarded is Infernal Tutor.
The purpose of Ignorant Bliss is not to 'shut down' discard, but to compliment Brainstorm in protecting your important spells. If by chance you are forced to use your BS early to protect from discard, and they draw more discard, Ignorant Bliss provides this support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If you you are holding both BS and Bliss in your hand during a discard spell, you may opt to use Bliss over BS to conserve it for the combo turn. Virtually, Bliss adds 2 more cards to your deck that can play around discard spells. That's all...
That are your important spells aside IT? LED's you play out anyways or the redundant cantrips or Rituals?Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
Don't I always read in this thread that ANT is "resistant to discard" anyways? /sarcasm
I don't understand your question. Your important spells depend on the hand you're shaping. Storm players should know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If you are short on mana, then that's the important spell. If you are protecting a storm engine, then that is your spell. If you are protecting the win con, then that is your spell. The point is, it depends on the hand you are shaping, but because the goal of hand disruption is to disrupt your best cards or to attack your card advantage, spells like Ignorant Bliss and Brainstorm can help to mitigate those effects.
Resistant to discard =/= discard proof.. I think you are over generalizing a bit.
@Lemnear
I can only agree with Jin.
What do you prefer my friend?;)
I don't think fetching a red dual just for Bliss is wise. Neither would be burning a Petal for it. In most cases the Turn 1 Thoughtseize/IoK can't be dodged anyways. To be in-time you either need to fetch a Volcanic for Bliss very soon or have to burn a Petal. Neither option is really good for ANT. Confidant would do much more for you in the long and grindy games vs. BG. Bliss can be a blessing if you dodge a single Hymn but Bob will win vs. a flurry of discard-Spells over several turns while dealing damage.
If preventing your spells from discard is your goal, your own discard can be used for that purpose without the need to generate the ugly 1R. I don't think the rare situations where Bliss shines are worth the SB slot
Right now I'm on the Ignorant Bliss plan, and it has been serving me well. I'm a type of player who prefers to have the SB compliment my main deck components rather than have a transformational SB. Therefore, my SB is an extension of my MB. The Ignorant Bliss acts as BS 5-6 VS discard decks. I play that rather than playing Dark Confidants; although some may argue that Bob serves as Ad Nauseam 2-5. I think they are both valid plans, but in order to save SB space, I'm playing the Bliss right now. It seems ok so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Dark Confidant used to be strong when it was a new tech, but now with the prevalence of burns and the unsurprising creature for ANT post board, it has really gone down in effectiveness. I rather board in less things and maintain my efficiency as a storm deck than to clutter the post board game with a creature that doesn't help much in generating storm vs discard, immediately.
That said, I feel that Dark Confidant in the SB keeps BWx decks honest post board. Do they keep in Sword to Plowshares? Do they take them out? It's a mystery.
Corner case scenario with ignorant bliss is that you could cast infernal tutor, respond with bliss and be hellbent. Still seems like a clunker to me.
Quite funny you say that, cause i heard that Timo has dropped the Burning wish plan already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
For those of you who run Grim Tutor, how many copies do you run?
I'm considering acquiring one copy right now, but I don't really want to do that unless it enables me to play a more optimal version of ANT (I feel like Prosak's build is a bit lacking for gas). I know Timo Schunemann's list from GP Amsterdam had a copy in the sideboard, but it sounds like it's fallen out of favor.
ye? where? i'll like to read this things, i mean, he won a gp and split finals in ovino with the same list sooQuote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
Wait, is someone seriously considering Ignorant Bliss in ANT?
I'd even sooner consider Divert or something. That at least costs just U.
Ignorant Bliss is just terrible in my opinion.
Yes i prefer Bliss, why i should use a bad counter who makes nothing?
Never gonna drop Burning Wish. Had a game, we both in topdeck mode, and opponent had 2 creatures in play. I topdeck BWish, cast for Dim Ret., and proceeded to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
This is in addition to BWish into IGG wins, Grapeshot for lethal around a Teeg, Pyroclasm against 2 hatebears, wishing for a discard spell, among others.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...3&d=1365653080
Like that one for the discard.decs?
That's like a Dark Confidant that only works when you're in deep shit.
I'd like my Confi to also work when I'm in shallow shit.
I'm not saying 'play Divert'. I'm saying Divert is less bad than the other crap.
I don't see why we would side bad cards to hate discard in the first place.
I feel Past in Flames is enough to beat discard decks usually.
You can side an additional one in, or Wish for a second, if you're on the Wish plan.
If they draw a God hand and discard AND exile important stuff, then you're losing anyway.
Ignorant bliss isn't bad since it replaces itself and protect you from any number of discard spells for a turn but in my taste it is just to narrow to deserve a SB slot.
We don't really care about discard unless it is combined with permission or permanent based hate, and in that case we are better off using our SB slots to attend to that problem.
@ The new confidant: It sucks since it does nothing if you have a card in your hand already. In any case you are better off with Dark confidant in AnT.
It combines nicely with liliana though.
I know him personally and can assure you he is not playing Burning Wishes in his ANT deck right now. He also stated it in his blog I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
How would one access this blog? I'm far far from knowing him or anything but from reading his report on E.C .it seemed like he would never even think about other variants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
That report is ancient by now! It was from pre-Decay storm! I know this is a controversial opinion on the ANT thread (and is just my opinion), but I think ANT stopped being on par with TES once Abrupt Decay got printed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
At that point ANT's advantage of a "stable manabase" stopped existing because it had to splash both R and G (in addition to losing out on powerful tools like Silence). Counterbalance has seen an uptick and AD is much easier to cast than Wipe Away, so it's pretty hard justifying not playing Decay considering the benefits it has in the Chalice and hatebear matchups, but at the same time it has a pretty real cost.
Keeping the fetch-dual manabase with AD warps the deck to either be extremely durdly (16 cantrips and board Trop) or very all-in with a deck that's not designed to be all-in (TNT).
I really don't have anything more than a gut feel from playtesting for why this is true, but I still believe that it is.
A friend of mine speaks with him quite often and friends of him come to Belgium to play legacy in our LGS sometimes and we spoke about it. I am currently looking to start with ANT and asked questions about which version to play and what they thought about burning wish. That's when they told me he wasn't playing tem ATM.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
The blog can be found here:Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
http://www.mtg-forum.de/blog/98-the-...nd-the-wicked/
It is on a german magic forum and written in german though. He does not write a lot lately and roughly a third is about magic when he does. Reading the blog requires registration.
If I remember correctly he tested ANT with Snapcaster Mages at the time of GP Bochum and finally settled with an adjusted maindeck of Prosaks cantrip version.
Burning Wish was seen as a nessessary evil in the GP Ghent list. It can create some arkward situations. You need either another tutor to grab an engine with it or enough mana to go with Grim Tutor to get your engine and puts a strain on your manabase by needing more red mana in the combo turn. It also eats up a good chunk of your sideboard.
Some problems with BW or Grim main are also described here by Prosak:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...rm-Primer.html
I played the GP Ghent deck alot and liked it. I miss the ability to interact with cards like Teeg in G1 or put some goblins on the table T1 in the newest list.
On the other hand the new list plays alot smoother now without Burning Wishes and G1 Teeg is not encountered very often these days.
People often say it is alot slower then the BW version, but most of the fast kills were enabled by Infernal Tutor anyways.
Manabase feels stable and you get a real sideboard now.
Current list as of march the 25th looks like this:
Deck: Ad Nauseam Tendrils http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif
//Main
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
//Sideboard
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Duress
1 Tropical Island
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen
Leaving us with 5 open slots in the sideboard which are currently filled with the following:
Deck: Ad Nauseam Tendrils SB Flexslots http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif
//Sideboard
3 Grafdigger's Cage (against TinFins)
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Carpet of Flowers
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen
Greetings Chris
Edit: Got rid of sacks :-)
It's Prosak, not a professional sack.
Prosak:
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/da...FM7_Prosak.jpg
A sack:
http://www.photo-dictionary.com/phot...6/8698sack.jpg
Anyone know if the numbers Nihil Credo uses make any differentiation between ANT and TES? That's the only way his DTB numbers make sense
Edit: dug into the tcdecks numbers. Basically I was forgetting about Europe :rolleyes:
Two questions... Which is better going into something like an SCG Open? Prosak's ANT list or Bryants TES? I feel fairly comfortable with both but I barely ever play legacy anymore so I have no clue which is a better choice?
Also can anyone explain to me how to board for Prosak's list? I am not sure what to cut for the Carpet's and the Decays. Also I assume when you bring in the Trop you are cutting a non-land. can anyone confirm this?
At this point, strictly speaking the data supports ANT (although it's not by much for US tournaments). Obviously I and other people on the TES thread think that deck is superior, but there's basically no way to convince people apart from encouraging them to play the deck in tournaments (after getting comfortable with it - it's not as intuitive as ANT). I feel like if you have a good handle on TES then there shouldn't be a question, otherwise you should play ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
Cabal Ritual comes out for Carpet of Flowers versus Blue Decks. They are both rituals, except Carpet has no graveyard weakness and are almost always online against blue decks. Tropical Island comes in for a Fetchland. Abrupt Decay comes in for 2x Preordain, a Cabal Ritual. If you play 4x Decays, then you may shave a discard spell, but I generally find 3x Decay are enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
Player mentality matters a bit, too. Even if you're technically proficient, TES is more oriented for aggressive, somewhat gambly early game plays and has a bit worse long game. ANT is a more everything is guaranteed and (relatively speaking) slow and steady kind of affair, play feel wise. In as diverse and tricky a format as Legacy, being comfortable with your deck is key.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Though if you play Prosak ANT, for goodness' sake don't run that Massacre in the board. Being dead to Teeg is not very funny.
Today ANT is on day 2 in th GP Grand Prix ;)
(make 7-2 without byes;)) The list fallow soon..
@ zombie
the first thing dont say prosak ANT, its not his deck and he's not the only player that say 4/4/4/4 is right thing.
@.i think.massacre is.pretty. maybe a.change slot.
If someone speaks of Prosaks ANT I just see Gemstone Mines and not the 4/4/4/4 thingy :-P But I tend to see the bad things first :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Edit: Massacre is just not needed in his board. Decay, Karakas, Vapor handle most of the Hatebears and Massacre seems to be for Thalia and such....and in that case a single DoN seems better.
On my first GP ( Strassburg)
89 place from 1663 people with ANT without byes.
i'm very happy with this results.
My List fallows...
Has anyone ever tried a couple Thought Scour over a couple of the Preordain? I find that I am often waiting a turn to go off because I don't have Threshold, and that is usually just as important if not more important than the dig that the Preordain scry gives me. A common use for my Preordains is a "shuffle" for Brainstorms, and Thought Scour does this as well. Just curious if anyone has tried it...
Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Thanks men.
Here is my List:
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ad Nauseam
2 Misty Rainforest
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Ignorant Bliss
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
The only thing i would change is the Pact.
The List Perform very well!
For a moment I thought you ran just 13 lands. Sickest mind trick ever, putting 2 misty rainforest at the bottom of the decklist. Also of note, how relevant is having the bayou as green source number 2 in the sideboard? I'm guessing you ran the badlands because you had ignorant bliss in the sideboard. As for massacre, did it ever get screwed over by teeg? Slaughter pact is an easy switch to chain of vapor or echoing truth at least to me. Leyline of sanctity is seeing more play and just 2 CoV's as answers to leyline is pretty loose since you have to rely on ad nauseam more to find the CoV's for you to answer leyline(s). Either way, congratulations on the finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
No one has tried thought scour to my knowledge. It seems neat for enabling threshold and randomly milling PiF or making PiF better by milling rituals but I'm hesitant to try it because every time it mills infernal tutor or some other good cards I'm going to cringe. Usually cabal ritual is threshed at least for me, unless it's turn 2 or something. I even manage to get it threshed through double deathrite shaman generally.
@ Massacre
I never get owned by Teeg(Massacre is not the only removal). I think Massacre is good to, for win time against fast decks like Elves.
@ Bayou
First, I don't like Gemstone Mine at all. Because it get wasted so easy..
Ok bayou too, but i prefer more Fetchies, they make Treshhold too and can't be wasted+ search your basic+ better Brainstorms.
And i like this art of green split very well. All the Time you can fetch what you need and make Treshhold.
@ Slaughter Pact
yeah i will cut the Pact for a one off Dread of Night or something like that.
@ Chain of Vapor
Chain was pretty good and safed my games.
But a Game on day 2 was against Show and Know.
It was 1:1 and he was on the play on g3. I know that he is playing Leyline of sanctity.
I boarded in 2 Chain of Vapors. Then he begin with double Leyline and Volcanic, GO!
I have a Perfect first Turn kill Hand with Ad Nauseam and enough Mana free for cast more ritual etc..
I have to go for it, no FoW and make a lot mana + again with PiF to. Don't find a Chain. Have to search with tutor and bounce him the first Leyline.
then the second i cant bounce him it, because he play a REB in my Face -.-
Game...not enough Mana to Flashback Chain + search Tendrils..But was a good Game.
@ Ignorrant Bliss
It saved my 2 Games against Jund;)