[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

I'm new to this archetype so forgive my ignorance, but is Phyrexian Tower really essential? Is it still good even if you don't see a Veteran Explorer? 4 mana seems pretty reasonable turn 2, but what about turns 3, 4, etc? How often do you sit on a Tower with no Vets in play? You could also consider going up to 26 lands.

---

I'm fairly new to the Jund version of Nic-Fit, but I think you might be right. Phyrexian Tower was an absolute necessity in Junk colored versions where you ran Sun Titan (with Eternal Witness, etc) and Academy Rector, but it has a lot less synergy here. Granted you can use it to ramp off of your Wood Elves/Huntermaster tokens in addition to Veteran Explorer, but it might not be enough. I do like that is functions like flashback from Cabal Therapy, giving you a 5th sac outlet.

Maybe the manabase could be revised to something like:

LANDS [25]
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp

That gives you 12 mountains, and 6 fetchlands that can bring out basic mountain. You lose a basic, moving to 5, which may be wrong. Too tight? Too greedy?

Why play Veteran Explorer with only 5 basics?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nedleeds

Why play Veteran Explorer with only 5 basics?

---

5 basics is on the low end, but realistically you can only plan on getting one explorer off at reasonable speed anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mini1337s

LANDS [25]
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp

That gives you 12 mountains, and 6 fetchlands that can bring out basic mountain. You lose a basic, moving to 5, which may be wrong. Too tight? Too greedy?

---

I've had many upon many corner plays where I won off of vet pop #3. Reanimate targeting Vet has come up for me more than once--and Phy Tower is always my sac outlet in those cases.

It's a little ironic you're considering cutting it, and I actually added a second one in. The on-demand instant speed sac outlet is good stuff, and the turn 2-3 plays are over the top. Turn 2 Swagtusk or Huntmaster ftw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Siiig

I've had many upon many corner plays where I won off of vet pop #3. Reanimate targeting Vet has come up for me more than once--and Phy Tower is always my sac outlet in those cases.

It's a little ironic you're considering cutting it, and I actually added a second one in. The on-demand instant speed sac outlet is good stuff, and the turn 2-3 plays are over the top. Turn 2 Swagtusk or Huntmaster ftw.

---

/barn. I wouldn't add the 2nd Tower, but I wouldn't cut the 1 that's there either. It's randomly very useful. The Sun Titan/Rector lists definitely wanted it as a 2-of, because they had more things to abuse the sac outlet. Scape doesn't really, but what it does have is enough for 1.

@Adding Foothills to the list. This isn't a terrible idea, but the question is where they come from. I could see putting in a 1-of in place of 1 Forest, which puts you down to 3 Forest 3 Mountain 2 Swamp = 8 basics. I wouldn't go below 8 basics in a Nic Fit deck. I used to run 7 in Rector for quite a while, but I found myself getting randomly screwed out of value.

Stomping Grounds, as I've said for a while now, are just too critical. Having 6 Taigas is crucial. Basically, the mana base breaks down as such:

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
-----------------12 mountain-type cards for Valakut [red sources]

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
-----------------9 basics for Explorer/Tribe-Elder.

4 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
-----------------13 Forests for Wood Elves [green sources]

2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
-----------------8 Swamps [black sources]

Black is a little low, and has always been historically, which HAS cost me games.

Now, going below 12 mountains is poor, because Valakut. 12 mountains is the lowest number of mountains that is feasible if you expect your Taigas to get Surgicaled (leaves you with 8, which means you can have 2 in play to use and still be able to shift 6 into play to kill).

The cuttable lands are 1 Forest (keeps 13 green, bumps to 13 red and 9 black; but lowers basics to 8); possibly one Bayou (which only really gives you a shuffle and +1 red source in exchange for -1 prime target for Wood Elves); and possibly the Phyrexian Tower (which gives +1 to all sources, but reduces your nut-draw potential, weakens you to StP, and removes your instant-speed Veteran sac-outlet [which means Valakut is less likely to be used at instant speed]).

There's benefits and drawbacks to all of these. The Forest is the least damaging, and is an easy cut for 1 Foothills. Having the 3rd Bayou is probably worth it, because you want to keep your Bayou numbers high for Wood Elves, since Bayou is the most common fetch therein. Bayou is also the land that we most want to see in our opening hand, because it is the colors of Therapy and Explorer. Removing Phyrexian Tower is the most damaging and the least "good" option. Most turn 3 kills involve Tower somewhere, and being able to kill manlands with Valakut at instant speed by saccing Explorers to Tower is a trick that I've used more than once. Additionally, there are few things that break the Jund matchup as wide open in our favor as opening with Explorer into Tower into Thrag/Hunts/Colossus (they really hate Colossus, lol).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

/barn. I wouldn't add the 2nd Tower, but I wouldn't cut the 1 that's there either. It's randomly very useful. The Sun Titan/Rector lists definitely wanted it as a 2-of, because they had more things to abuse the sac outlet. Scape doesn't really, but what it does have is enough for 1.

@Adding Foothills to the list. This isn't a terrible idea, but the question is where they come from. I could see putting in a 1-of in place of 1 Forest, which puts you down to 3 Forest 3 Mountain 2 Swamp = 8 basics. I wouldn't go below 8 basics in a Nic Fit deck. I used to run 7 in Rector for quite a while, but I found myself getting randomly screwed out of value.

Stomping Grounds, as I've said for a while now, are just too critical. Having 6 Taigas is crucial. Basically, the mana base breaks down as such:

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
-----------------12 mountain-type cards for Valakut [red sources]

4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
-----------------9 basics for Explorer/Tribe-Elder.

4 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
-----------------13 Forests for Wood Elves [green sources]

2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
-----------------8 Swamps [black sources]

Black is a little low, and has always been historically, which HAS cost me games.

Now, going below 12 mountains is poor, because Valakut. 12 mountains is the lowest number of mountains that is feasible if you expect your Taigas to get Surgicaled (leaves you with 8, which means you can have 2 in play to use and still be able to shift 6 into play to kill).

The cuttable lands are 1 Forest (keeps 13 green, bumps to 13 red and 9 black; but lowers basics to 8); possibly one Bayou (which only really gives you a shuffle and +1 red source in exchange for -1 prime target for Wood Elves); and possibly the Phyrexian Tower (which gives +1 to all sources, but reduces your nut-draw potential, weakens you to StP, and removes your instant-speed Veteran sac-outlet [which means Valakut is less likely to be used at instant speed]).

There's benefits and drawbacks to all of these. The Forest is the least damaging, and is an easy cut for 1 Foothills. Having the 3rd Bayou is probably worth it, because you want to keep your Bayou numbers high for Wood Elves, since Bayou is the most common fetch therein. Bayou is also the land that we most want to see in our opening hand, because it is the colors of Therapy and Explorer. Removing Phyrexian Tower is the most damaging and the least "good" option. Most turn 3 kills involve Tower somewhere, and being able to kill manlands with Valakut at instant speed by saccing Explorers to Tower is a trick that I've used more than once. Additionally, there are few things that break the Jund matchup as wide open in our favor as opening with Explorer into Tower into Thrag/Hunts/Colossus (they really hate Colossus, lol).

---

Any of the longer term shift players in here know the benefit of the Tower. You refered to Forest #4, which is what I cut in place of Tower #2. I believe I still have a verdant in place of Bayou #3, because I need the colors and I actually still don't have one x.X; Something I've considered to combat the surgical play is actually cutting a Taiga in place of a 3rd Stomping Ground... #Tuning.

mini1337s: Can I ask why, if you want to use fetches, you are using RG fetches and not BG fetches? Why do you want to fetch basic mountains?

If you are playing around wasteland, turns 1 and 2 you want to fetch forest and swamp UNLESS you need to t2 wish into t3 pyroclasm. Consider the perfect scenario: T1 catacombs, swamp, therapy. T2 catacombs, forest, explorer. Sac explorer and get forest, mountain--perfect basic manabase. With foothills, you'll need to fetch a basic turn 1.

I feel like you only really need mountains once you have 4 lands out. By then you're not as vulnerable to wasteland.

Also, you want to have as few mountains as possible on the battlefield while setting up for Scapeshift.

What about playing 2x Phyrexian Tower with new legend rule in Scapewish?

To avoid confusion about what we are talking, would it be a good idea to call GBR lists with Valakut Scapewish and GBR lists without it Jund Fit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sherko7

Yeah I need to pick those up! Meanwhile I just remembered I have a couple of Memoricides from when I played straight GB Nic Fit so those will do for now. I agree with your last statement about Slaughter Games being the absolute weapon against Miracles. Most of the games I played against Miracles I always manage to get the 2 Slaughter Games off (RiP and Jace) only to be later destroyed by a well protected Entreat. More Slaughter Games then for sure!:smile:



I will definitely try Probe, but probably not run the Trops! I don't have them! Kessig Wolf-Run was pretty decent for me as due to the lack of finishers (I cut Broodmate) it helps turn my 3/3 Garruk children and most especially the late game Veteran Explorer top decks pretty good clocks on their own. DRS can probably go, and I'm pretty excited to try out Gitaxian Probe!

I don't run Thoughtseizes in the board simply because most of the Sneak Show players in my meta do the "mull to Leyline" durdling and I end up with a ton of dead cards. Honestly I've pretty much given up on the combo matchup, deciding instead to focus on making sure my fair deck matchups are sure wins. With your suggestions I'd probably go:

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Virtue's Ruin
4 REB/Pyro
3 Slaughter Games
2 Extirpate
1 Batterskull - haven't tested this, but I do remember someone saying this is THE SB card against fair decks.
1 Golgari Charm (for the Elves! and just a flex card) or Damnation probably.

Also I do agree with the -1 Kitchen Finks and -1 Punishing Fire. The last tourney before the one posted above I had seen a lot of Burn so I decided to add the Finks in place of the 2nd Witness. Punishing Fire is a bad top deck if you already have one in your yard/hand.:laugh:

---

I only suggested 1 Tropical Island. If you can't get that, I would not go with 4 Probes I think. 3 seems like the right number then. But I am fairly new to Probe as well. Out of curiosity I have made a few Cockatrice games with a cobbled together Jund Fit list with Probes and they were still amazing. I wished I had one in every opening hand, and especially in those with Therapy. But running 4 without ever being able to pay for them might be too much. Maybe Qweerios can tell you more, he played Jund Fit before and is currently on BUG Fit with Probe.

3 Fires seems enough, it makes me confident that we agree on that. The games go long, you have Top and Probes cycle, too.

The SB looks good. I thought about Plague for the Elves and Maverick/D&T matchups but Charm is good, too. A turn faster against Elves and they don't see it coming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Star|Scream

mini1337s: Can I ask why, if you want to use fetches, you are using RG fetches and not BG fetches? Why do you want to fetch basic mountains?

If you are playing around wasteland, turns 1 and 2 you want to fetch forest and swamp UNLESS you need to t2 wish into t3 pyroclasm. Consider the perfect scenario: T1 catacombs, swamp, therapy. T2 catacombs, forest, explorer. Sac explorer and get forest, mountain--perfect basic manabase. With foothills, you'll need to fetch a basic turn 1.

I feel like you only really need mountains once you have 4 lands out. By then you're not as vulnerable to wasteland.

Also, you want to have as few mountains as possible on the battlefield while setting up for Scapeshift.

---

Bear in mind, I'm new to this version. I've added Wooded Foothills over Verdant Catacombs so I can fetch out basic Mountain in circumstances where I have Valakut on board. I haven't found situations where I want basic swamp over Bayou, but that could be my limited experience.
Really, the added benefit of resetting tops is why I've added 3-4 fetchlands. Nothing is worse that needing to dig, activating top, and seeing 3 random non-fetch lands.

I do like where you're heading with that!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mini1337s

Bear in mind, I'm new to this version. I've added Wooded Foothills over Verdant Catacombs so I can fetch out basic Mountain in circumstances where I have Valakut on board. I haven't found situations where I want basic swamp over Bayou, but that could be my limited experience.
Really, the added benefit of resetting tops is why I've added 3-4 fetchlands. Nothing is worse that needing to dig, activating top, and seeing 3 random non-fetch lands.

---

If you have valakut out and it hasn't been wasted, then you should have no problem fetching a nonbasic mountain with catacombs.

Also there are so many mountains in the deck, that being cutoff from red really shouldn't happen that often. I believe that the order of color importance is GBR, especially in the first few turns. Ideally the only time you'd ever need a red source is to cast a burning wish to find your scapeshift. Of course Huntmaster and Slaughter games require it, but not till you have 4 lands (usually.)

Just to let you guys know, at the very least both myself, Kevin, and Architect have played with / tested / considered fetch lands. I never thought of dropping non-mountains to stuff them in.

Catacombs / Foothills are redundant. Catacombs is probably slightly better, more important than the waste comment is the likely hood you still have a basic mountain left in your deck when you smash the foothills late game with valakut active. I can only remember a single instance when I've been able to... say... double lighting bolt people with a veteran explorer.

I think the center of discussion should be explore/exploration. Because I want that. But I'm to lazy to just test it =P

And Prismatic Omen, I want that too.

To jump back a step, Phy tower with the new rule is *shrug*, it doesn't really enable anything we couldn't already do. Unlike Opal, we can't play 2 phy towers on turn 2 to double smash vets for crazy mana excel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

I only suggested 1 Tropical Island. If you can't get that, I would not go with 4 Probes I think. 3 seems like the right number then. [...] Maybe Qweerios can tell you more, he played Jund Fit before and is currently on BUG Fit with Probe.

---

Does anyone have a BUG Nic Fit list? I only found some weird looking lists with Gifts Ungiven and the one Arianrhod has linked in his sig. I would love to test a blue version, but except Jace and Brainstorm and Probe aparently, what does a blue list look like?

Qweerios has posted a good list here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post732005

If you didn't follow the discussion it can be summarized quickly: I would play a few Carpets in the SB, ~2 things that can kill a Tombstalker (Damnation, Pulse) instead of the 4-4 Decay/Damnation split and maybe a fourth Jace. Qweerios says these changes would not be good.

I posted about this a while back. But I think not running 2 fetches is wrong.

The mana base I have played about 100+ Test games with and 50+ tournament games with is below:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Mountain (one or 2 of these can be stomping grounds probably)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I haven't been playing scapewish much lately, but I think DRS decks and RIP being so popular Stronghold is probably cuttable for a 3rd catacombs.

With this manabase you have 11 Mountains. In those 150+ games, I've lost 1 game because I didn't have enough mountains in my deck to kill a MUD player who was at 56 life, and I could ONLY deal him 54 damage. And yet having those 2 fetches have probably won me 20+ games where not having a shuffle effect, or having the wrong land colors/basic status would have made me lose.

There have been maybe 3 times where I wanted to a get a bayou off wood elves that wasnt there, but I never lost a game because of that.

The 4 basic mountains is probably wrong. 9 Basics is excessive. 1-2 of my mountains can probably be stomping grounds.

I think the arguments for not running 2-3 Verdent catacombs are based off of cute sanarios that come up 1 in 100 games. While fetch lands give you great value the vast majority of the time you see them. Also, catacombs is better than wooded foothills. The deck needs un-wastelandable GB sources in the first few turns of the game. Red isnt usually needed till later so it matters slightly less if those sources are wastelandable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I posted about this a while back. But I think not running 2 fetches is wrong.

The mana base I have played about 100+ Test games with and 50+ tournament games with is below:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Mountain (one or 2 of these can be stomping grounds probably)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I haven't been playing scapewish much lately, but I think DRS decks and RIP being so popular Stronghold is probably cuttable for a 3rd catacombs.

With this manabase you have 11 Mountains. In those 150+ games, I've lost 1 game because I didn't have enough mountains in my deck to kill a MUD player who was at 56 life, and I could ONLY deal him 54 damage. And yet having those 2 fetches have probably won me 20+ games where not having a shuffle effect, or having the wrong land colors/basic status would have made me lose.

There have been maybe 3 times where I wanted to a get a bayou off wood elves that wasnt there, but I never lost a game because of that.

The 4 basic mountains is probably wrong. 9 Basics is excessive. 1-2 of my mountains can probably be stomping grounds.

I think the arguments for not running 2-3 Verdent catacombs are based off of cute sanarios that come up 1 in 100 games. While fetch lands give you great value the vast majority of the time you see them. Also, catacombs is better than wooded foothills. The deck needs un-wastelandable GB sources in the first few turns of the game. Red isnt usually needed till later so it matters slightly less if those sources are wastelandable.

---

I can get behind this. What about:
-1 Forest
-1 Mountain

+1 Stomping Ground
+1 Verdant Catacombs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

I posted about this a while back. But I think not running 2 fetches is wrong.

The mana base I have played about 100+ Test games with and 50+ tournament games with is below:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Mountain (one or 2 of these can be stomping grounds probably)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I haven't been playing scapewish much lately, but I think DRS decks and RIP being so popular Stronghold is probably cuttable for a 3rd catacombs.

With this manabase you have 11 Mountains. In those 150+ games, I've lost 1 game because I didn't have enough mountains in my deck to kill a MUD player who was at 56 life, and I could ONLY deal him 54 damage. And yet having those 2 fetches have probably won me 20+ games where not having a shuffle effect, or having the wrong land colors/basic status would have made me lose.

There have been maybe 3 times where I wanted to a get a bayou off wood elves that wasnt there, but I never lost a game because of that.

The 4 basic mountains is probably wrong. 9 Basics is excessive. 1-2 of my mountains can probably be stomping grounds.

I think the arguments for not running 2-3 Verdent catacombs are based off of cute sanarios that come up 1 in 100 games. While fetch lands give you great value the vast majority of the time you see them. Also, catacombs is better than wooded foothills. The deck needs un-wastelandable GB sources in the first few turns of the game. Red isnt usually needed till later so it matters slightly less if those sources are wastelandable.

---

I can get behind this. What about:
-1 Forest
-1 Mountain

+1 Stomping Ground
+1 Verdant Catacombs

That's probably right. I think these days you might be able to cut the Volrath's stronghold for another fetch too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

To avoid confusion about what we are talking, would it be a good idea to call GBR lists with Valakut Scapewish and GBR lists without it Jund Fit?



I only suggested 1 Tropical Island. If you can't get that, I would not go with 4 Probes I think. 3 seems like the right number then. But I am fairly new to Probe as well. Out of curiosity I have made a few Cockatrice games with a cobbled together Jund Fit list with Probes and they were still amazing. I wished I had one in every opening hand, and especially in those with Therapy. But running 4 without ever being able to pay for them might be too much. Maybe Qweerios can tell you more, he played Jund Fit before and is currently on BUG Fit with Probe.

3 Fires seems enough, it makes me confident that we agree on that. The games go long, you have Top and Probes cycle, too.

The SB looks good. I thought about Plague for the Elves and Maverick/D&T matchups but Charm is good, too. A turn faster against Elves and they don't see it coming.

---

Thanks for more advice! I'll try playing the Probes this weekend, we'll see. I've cut down on the Finks and added the 2nd Witness back. Cutting down to 3 Fires will definitely be my next move. It feels like a really bad top deck once you already have one online. Plus, with all the removal I'm running it sometimes just comes down to a choice of whether I wanna Decay the Goyf or kill it with P.Fire. P.Fire almost always wins out, but see the redundancy?

Anyway, what do you think about a singleton Goyf? My issues with combo is that sometimes I can disrupt their first attempt at going off but my clock is still nowhere to be found. Huntmaster/Thrun will sometimes come in a turn or so too late and by then they'll be trying to go off again. Goyf might help with that. I do understand that he gets swept by Deed but it might be something I'm willing to overlook.

Also abot BUG Fit, I might be willing to invest on that but what does it get you that Scapewish doesn't. Scapewish is honestly my least favorite version of the deck, but I do admit that its obviously the "best one" as far as tournament results go.

@Sherko -- hold out for my next creation, then =)

Also, Goyf is poor vs combo. Like, Goyf decks often board out Goyfs for disruption because he just isn't enough of a clock vs them. Delver is the stand-out example of "enough" of a clock....Goyf is not. If you want to piss off combo in creature form, you could try to Zenith up Teeg even though you can't cast him / he shuts off Slaughter Games (aka, I wouldn't recommend it). The only other anti-combo green creature options are weird stuff like Willow Satyr (which is terrible now that Show and Tell has moved to Omni), or Ichneumon Druid....which gets casually Abrupt Decayed EoT. Your best bet for creature clocks vs combo are Huntmaster and Chameleon Colossus -- both are quick clocks that are resilient to a combo deck's feeble attempts at stalling.

Could someone be so kind as to critique this list? This is my first attempt so please feel free to punch through. I want to splash white mainly for Sun Titan shenanigans (and possibly Vindicate).


Creatures 9
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Harmonic Sliver
?

Spells 22
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe (unsure about this, just seems too sweet to pass up)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land 25
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

And room left over for awesome shit I overlooked.

Other cards for consideration:
Hornet Queen: its mana cost is pretty steep but it trades with Emrakul and Griselbrand. Maybe SB card?
Gaea's Revenge: haste damage on an ideally empty board sounds sweet
Swords to Plowshares: we still need spot removal right?

Other thoughts:
1. Has anyone tried KotR and Armageddon here? Seems like it could be devastating.
2. Is 1 Sun Titan enough? I considered Prime Titan but I don't really have too fancy a manabase.
3. This deck's obvious disadvantage to Scapeshift builds is a lack of Wish board. Could this be compensated for by tutoring? Infernal Tutor, Entomb? Perhaps I have too great a love affair with Loam
4. What is the average amount of mana you have to cast creatures in your games? I imagine the sweet spot would be around 5-7? What's the maximum CMC we should bother with?
5. Can we really not support Wasteland? Feels so dirty :(
6. Also considered Hymn, is this not a popular choice?
Thanks guys/gals/ghouls

Goyf and combo has nothing to do with a "clock". The reason why Goyf isn't great against combo is because you have to tap 2 lands during your turn for a card that does nothing but give a very loose time limit to your combo opponent.

As for Gitaxian Probe in non-blue lists, I think it isn't necessary. The card essentially makes up for a flaw in Cabal Therapy and can quickly become a liability. However, I highly recommend Wall of Blossoms, great card with Sun Titan lists and a good Therapy fodder as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Sherko -- hold out for my next creation, then =)

Also, Goyf is poor vs combo. Like, Goyf decks often board out Goyfs for disruption because he just isn't enough of a clock vs them. Delver is the stand-out example of "enough" of a clock....Goyf is not. If you want to piss off combo in creature form, you could try to Zenith up Teeg even though you can't cast him / he shuts off Slaughter Games (aka, I wouldn't recommend it). The only other anti-combo green creature options are weird stuff like Willow Satyr (which is terrible now that Show and Tell has moved to Omni), or Ichneumon Druid....which gets casually Abrupt Decayed EoT. Your best bet for creature clocks vs combo are Huntmaster and Chameleon Colossus -- both are quick clocks that are resilient to a combo deck's feeble attempts at stalling.

---

Next creation, yes please :D

Willow Satyr is kinda cute, might try running that LOL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Qweerios

Goyf and combo has nothing to do with a "clock". The reason why Goyf isn't great against combo is because you have to tap 2 lands during your turn for a card that does nothing but give a very loose time limit to your combo opponent.

As for Gitaxian Probe in non-blue lists, I think it isn't necessary. The card essentially makes up for a flaw in Cabal Therapy and can quickly become a liability. However, I highly recommend Wall of Blossoms, great card with Sun Titan lists and a good Therapy fodder as well.

---

Your arguments on Goyf are pretty convincing. Since I don't have them, then probably won't bother testing that for now. :laugh:

I'm planning on just giving up on the combo matchup for the time being and focus on beating the faces of fair decks. The 4 blasts will probably be the only combo hate I'll be packing as well as Slaughter Games and Extirpates. Their applications are wider anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

Could someone be so kind as to critique this list? This is my first attempt so please feel free to punch through. I want to splash white mainly for Sun Titan shenanigans (and possibly Vindicate).


Creatures 9
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Harmonic Sliver
?

Spells 22
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe (unsure about this, just seems too sweet to pass up)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land 25
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

And room left over for awesome shit I overlooked.

Other cards for consideration:
Hornet Queen: its mana cost is pretty steep but it trades with Emrakul and Griselbrand. Maybe SB card?
Gaea's Revenge: haste damage on an ideally empty board sounds sweet
Swords to Plowshares: we still need spot removal right?

Other thoughts:
1. Has anyone tried KotR and Armageddon here? Seems like it could be devastating.
2. Is 1 Sun Titan enough? I considered Prime Titan but I don't really have too fancy a manabase.
3. This deck's obvious disadvantage to Scapeshift builds is a lack of Wish board. Could this be compensated for by tutoring? Infernal Tutor, Entomb? Perhaps I have too great a love affair with Loam
4. What is the average amount of mana you have to cast creatures in your games? I imagine the sweet spot would be around 5-7? What's the maximum CMC we should bother with?
5. Can we really not support Wasteland? Feels so dirty :(
6. Also considered Hymn, is this not a popular choice?
Thanks guys/gals/ghouls

---

In general:

- you play 3 lands too many if you don't use Valakut or other value lands; 22 is the safe number, 21 would be greedy
- if you have access I would play a Tropical Island for Probe
- you need more threats in general; 1 Thragtusk is a good start; for example you could try a second Witness and a Garruk Primal Hunter

your questions:

1. KotR dies to Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares and it would be your only target for these spells. Armageddon is a bad idea because your goal is to have many lands on the table.

2. Like I said above one Sun Titan is not enough in terms of cards that win the game. Sigarada is amazing but you need a bit more. Thragtusk, Garruk, Witness could replace the 3 lands you have too much. Prime doesn't do anything in your list at this point. You could run "Twin Towers" (1 Volrath's Stonghold + your Phyrexian Tower) to make it useful.

3. The wishboard is no real advantage. It is only good in Valakut because it can find Scapeshifts so don't worry. The only playable tutor in Nic Fit is Diabolic Intent. You can play that as a one-off if you want but Tutors are in general not necessary, filtering with Top is better.

4. Maximum CMC is probably 6 or 7.

5. We give them Basic lands. The principle of the deck is that most Legacy decks can't do anything anyway with the Mana we give them. Wasteland is counterproductive. If you play with Titan you can run one Dust Bowl to get rid of annoying things like Riptide Laboratory, Karakas (with Clique) or 12-post lands.

6. Hymn is a great card. Most current deck lists don't find the room for it but no one would blame you for playing 2-3 Hymns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Siiig

I think the center of discussion should be explore/exploration. Because I want that. But I'm to lazy to just test it =P

---

Tried Explore at the Legacy local on Thursday.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift
3 Explore

4 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
3 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Collective Voyage
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Overmaster


Went 2-1 snagging 4th out of 14 people. It was ok, but I feel like my land count, even at 25 was too light. I won 4 of the 6 games I played, losing 2 games in the first round. There was never a time where I resolved Explore and laid a land that I felt ahead.
Granted I just took out the Wood Elves and Elders, which could be wrong in the first place, but it felt fine as a gut pull.

So Young Pyromancer seems like it could have a home in Jund Nic Fit. I don't play this deck though, so I don't know... Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

So Young Pyromancer seems like it could have a home in Jund Nic Fit. I don't play this deck though, so I don't know... Thoughts?

---

I mean, what's that card doing for the deck? It doesn't play an overwhelming number of cheap spells, Pernicious deed will 100% kill it and all it's tokens, it has super low impact--if you don't mind me asking, what makes you say that it might have a home in Nic Fit? It seems like it doesn't meet any criteria of being: high impact, dodge deed, relevant comes into play ability.

People want to find a shell to use it and Cabal Therapy together. This deck and Dredge are the only two that have any success utilizing a playset of said card. Young Pyromancer is too low impact for Legacy in general and as pointed out has awful synergy with this deck's plan.

If you keep on the Deed plan, it's obviously not good. What I feel like makes this deck is that it is GBx and plays Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. It is also fine to play when you are playing Innocent Blood (which is a synergistic card with Veteran Explorer). I don't think the problem with Young Pyromancer is that it is too low impact... I mean it is a 2/1 for 1R that gives you 3 1/1's over the course of a couple turns. The problem is finding a shell that has enough synergies with it. I think this deck definitely has some synergies, but I have no idea if it is enough, and I also don't know if this deck is good enough to begin with... So who knows.

The best shell for Young Pyromancer is going to be something akin to Sam Black's Zombardment deck. Not the ramp/deed deck. Young Pyromancer does exactly zero things to further Nic Fit's game plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

If you keep on the Deed plan, it's obviously not good. What I feel like makes this deck is that it is GBx and plays Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. It is also fine to play when you are playing Innocent Blood (which is a synergistic card with Veteran Explorer). I don't think the problem with Young Pyromancer is that it is too low impact... I mean it is a 2/1 for 1R that gives you 3 1/1's over the course of a couple turns. The problem is finding a shell that has enough synergies with it. I think this deck definitely has some synergies, but I have no idea if it is enough, and I also don't know if this deck is good enough to begin with... So who knows.

---

In what world is trading the Deed plan for this creature ever worth it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kich867

In what world is trading the Deed plan for this creature ever worth it?

---

I'm not talking about trading Deed for a creature. Really I was just starting with Veteran Explorer, Young Pyromancer, and Cabal Therapy. I have no idea what the rest of the deck would look like other than some fatties to ramp into.

Also Young Pyromancer is probably not that powerful in a Zombardment list because of the low number of instants and sorceries. I could see it being decent in that deck though, but maybe as like a 2-of or something.

so...
Dark Prophecy - BBB
Rare
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control dies, you draw a card and lose 1 life.

Thoughts?

Triple black is virtually impossible, and it suffers from the same problem that killed Phyrexian Arena as an option: Abrupt Decay.

So I'm looking at putting a Green Black Nic Fit list together, and I have a few questions.

Firstly I notice lots of lists run Lilly of the veil, how necessary is she for this deck? I've tested her out a few times, and it seems I only use her for her as a three mana edict, since there usually isn't anything in my hand that I want to get rid of.

And I've also seen alot of Garruk Relentless or Garruk Primal hunters as well which would be the better one for the deck? I haven't tested too much so I haven't gotten to see either in action. Any opinion is welcome.

The current list that I'm testing:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Bayou

The advantage that GB Nic Fit has over the other versions is that you have more room to run disruption in the form of discard, so you can often have more game against combo. Liliana of the Veil is one of your best cards against decks like Show and Tell, which are usually a pretty poor matchup for the deck. Since that deck seems to be everywhere, I wouldn't play less than 2 Liliana, but if you really don't like the card you can try more Hymn to Tourach instead, or some Thoughtseizes. I wouldn't drop much disruption since that's the main advantage of that build of the deck.

Regarding Garruks, I think Primal Hunter is WAY better than Relentless. For one, it can't get Abrupt Decayed if it flips. 3/3s are way more threatening than 2/2s of course, but it also puts more pressure on opponents by ticking up loyalty as it puts creatures into play. Drawing cards is not irrelevant.

Regarding your list, I don't like Master of the Wild Hunt, I remember liking Wickerbough Elder more than Acidic Slime in GB Fit, Kitchen Finks should probably become Thragtusk, and I really don't think you want Dryad Arbors. If the Dark Depths combo has been good for you, that's awesome, but if it isn't then I would consider 2 Treetop Village. Titan into 2 Treetops was the best way to put immediate pressure on the opponent when I was still playing GB.

I hope some of this was helpful!

A disappointing 2-3-1 finish today. Got slow played by a BURN (!) player after I had Batterskull online and swinging every turn game 3. We went to time and got a draw. Tilt :(

R1: ANT (0-2)

Nothing much to say here really. Got beat on turn 2 both games. I mull'd to 5 on G2 with a hand of Mountain, GSZ, Duress, Cabal Therapy and Forest. Had to keep. Died.

R2: Burn (2-1)

Lost G1 off of triple Goblin Guide. Managed to stabilize G2 and G3 off of Huntmasters and Thragtusks as usual.

R3: ANT (!) (2-1)

Raped on G1 turn 2. T2 I managed to draw Duress + Cabal Therapy on my opening and had disrupted him enough. A turn 4 Slaughter Games naming Tendrils and he scooped. T3 had double Cabal Therapy, Duress and Extirpate in over 3 turns. Important thing to note is that I had kept a no black mana hand as I had a Carpet of Flowers. True enough, he played an Island and I managed to piggy back his lands to get the black mana I need. Huntmaster finished the job.

R4: Burn (1-1)

Got slow played... My brother who was watching from the side told me that she was holding a MOUNTAIN once and just sat there pretending to count. She was obviously slow playing mid game 3 really. Sad. I was 1 turn from winning when the 5th turn ended.

R5: 12Post (0-2)

I was on tilt. Nothing much to say here. I got raped by Eldrazis. No plays of note from my end, just tilted and died.

R6: Sneak Show (1-2)

Managed to win game 1! I knew he was playing Sneak Show as he was sitting beside me during match 1. He Spell Pierced my Cabal Therapy T1, and I managed to flashback it on T2 through Veteran Explorer and hit the SnT. He hardcasted Sneak Attack but didn't have the monsters. I broke another Veteran Explorer and dropped Prime Time. He was down to 10 when he finally landed a Griselbrand. He immediately drew 7 going down to 3 and in response I hit him with P. Fire :P You don't see that very often! Games 2 and 3 were the usual SnT beating.

Here's the list I played:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Damnation

The Damnation on the board was supposed to have been for Virtue's Ruin as there's a lot of Mav in our meta. Wasn't able to face even one of 'em sadly. Anyway, when I left the scene kabards had just gone 5-1 with Punishing Nic Fit and was waiting for the top 8 match! :tongue:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xieyun006

So I'm looking at putting a Green Black Nic Fit list together, and I have a few questions.

Firstly I notice lots of lists run Lilly of the veil, how necessary is she for this deck? I've tested her out a few times, and it seems I only use her for her as a three mana edict, since there usually isn't anything in my hand that I want to get rid of.

And I've also seen alot of Garruk Relentless or Garruk Primal hunters as well which would be the better one for the deck? I haven't tested too much so I haven't gotten to see either in action. Any opinion is welcome.

The current list that I'm testing:
list...

---

23 lands and no back up ramp engine seems low for the amount of utility lands you are running. I like the idea behind Ghost Quarters, but that really needs to be wasteland. It is strictly better. The depths/stage combo seems good. Dryad Arbor sounds great on paper, but you will find he is just bad in this deck.

2 Tops is not good, you need at least 3.

Liliana you either want to see every game, or never. Shes not a good mid/late game draw. That's why I only like her as a 3/4 of or a 0 of. If you want to put both players into topdeck mod every game, run 3 of her. If not, run 0.

Primal hunter is amazing. He win games singlehandedly. I actually think relentless is actually really bad in nic fit. All he does 99% of the time is make 2/2 wolf tokens till he dies or trade with a delver. He is always boltable, and is actually worse when he flips since he gives up his protection/removal and becomes decayable.

If I were playing GB and wanted to be on the depths/stage plan with the upcoming rules change, I would play something this:

3 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

@Sherko: No Probes? Would have liked to hear how they did. They also would have been amazing against all these Combo decks.

@burn opponent: That is NOT slowplay, that is stalling and stalling IS cheating and punished by DQ and further penalties. That difference is important to know. Never be afraid to call a judge and do it as soon as you realize what is going on. People are too shy about that. You wouldn't wait for the opponent to draw her third extra card before you call a judge either.

@Stage/Depths: My instinct says that this is not worth it. A giant GSZ is usually enough to win anyway and colorless lands really hurt. Also it is very slow. You pay 7 the first turn, then the second turn you make the 20/20 (if they don't have Wasteland) and only on the third turn after paying 7 you win. Two Treetop Villages win just as fast.