Do you run the 2 Swan Song in addition to Warping Wail? Before Origins, Glacial Chasm helped a lot in this MU, but Shaman of the Pack simply ignores it :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
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Do you run the 2 Swan Song in addition to Warping Wail? Before Origins, Glacial Chasm helped a lot in this MU, but Shaman of the Pack simply ignores it :-/Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
Hey so I'm looking at this list I wanted to ask about a few of the choices:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
Crop Rotation - Do you feel that 2 is enough? I haven't yet dipped below 3 in my UG list, I understand that there's only so much room and something's gotta go to make room for the other spells but I'm not sure if this is it.
Warping Wail - This card can be a real house, also feeling like 3 would be the right number here, but again...space constraints.
Show and Tell - I've cut this to 3 in the UG versions, I felt I was seeing 2 of them when I didn't need the extra far too often. Have you noticed this as well? Would be one place to get some space.
JTMS - How has this performed as a singleton? It's not a normal card for these builds, though I can see the potential power, just wondering if it's providing much in the slot when it could be something else.
Glacial Chasm - Not having this in the 75 seems strange, there's a number of matchups I really want this card for, even though I hate playing it because of the extra land sacrifice it requires. But it just does so much to the board states.
Thought-Knot Seer - Have you given this any thought? I've been playing with 3 in the board and they're already providing dividends in some of the combo matchups. It would have won me a game vs OmniTell had it not been for the backup burning wish in his hand.
Edit: I know this is an old list, since you're talking about Swan Songs main now, so I'd be interested in seeing what you've evolved to as well. After this week I think I might give the white splash a try. It was that or G/R, but I think I like Terminus over Kozilek's Return for the same reasons.
Right now I'm thinking about Scroll Rack as a 1-off... Maybe it's a replacement for JTMS?
crop rotation - it has 2 functions: tutor for a specific land and protect against wasteland. Since I run 3 needle, I have a good protection against wasteland (needle have so many function, I will never drop under 3). Crop is also very very good if you play chasm and bojuka bog, and they are not in my main list. The downside of crop is that is very bad against heavy-counter deck / miracle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corazu
Warping wail- I run 3 terminus and 1 StP, I'm quite protected against creature (EVERY kind of creature.....warping wail against reanimator is useless for example). I used warping wail, their slots is now taken by Swan Song. So I can handle creatures and combo as well.
S&T - their number basically depends on the number of creatures you play. Sometimes I drop 1 of them post side, but maindeck I wanna be sure to see them.
JTMS - this card is under testing......I played scroll rack, but it suffers artifact hate (post side the artifact hate is one of the main strategies opponents have against us) and in late game is useless. jace can win some game by itself and gives cards advantages. Sadly, we cannot protect him against creatures as miracle does: when it comes into the battlefiled, turn 4/5, usually the opponent has some creatures down, and Jace dies the turn after. I don't know honestly, probably I will change it with a sylvan library (no artifact hate, no chalice on 1, can give card advantage in game like storm and infect where life points are not so important, etc etc etc)
glacial chasm - the only matchup where it is super good is infect. A good burn player can play around it when he sees an open green mana...... terminus and platinum emperion are better to protect us against creatures. Maybe I'm a very unluck person, but chasm 90% of times for me is "you don't die now, you die in 4 turns".
Thought-Knot Seer - they deserve a test for sure. At the moment I don't know what to cut for them......blue gives us better answers against combo. Seer is so powerful in eldrazi stompy because it can be on the ground on turn 2, in my deck this is very unlikely to happen.
no, the songs replace the wail. good for chasm, another reason to drop it XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Postman
oh yes, I changed the list by the way........2 swan song maindeck instead of warping wail. Having these counters maindeck gives me the possibility to drop 1 Beb for a glacial chasm in sideboard.
2 Platinum Emperion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Show and Tell
2 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tropical Island
2 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Expedition Map
1 Forest
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
3 Terminus
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Flooded Strand
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Swan Song
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
A couple new cards ive been trying lately with success with personal tutor and temporal mastery. Personal tutor in this sets up a terminus, temporal mastery or puts a show and tell on top of our library. My list has been able to shave on those then to accustom this.
35 spells 25 lands
3x show and tell
2x terminus
1x temporal mastery
2x personal tutor
3x crop rotation
2x candelabara
3x sensei diving top
4x brainstorm
3x force of will
3x pithing needle
2x warping wail
4x primeval titan
1x ulamog new one
1x kozilek new one
1x platinum emperion
The other version ive been tweeking is fastpace exploration build which can and has powered out turn 2 titans and eldrazi. This build I lieve gives us the fastest possible outcomes for the deck.
34 spells 26 land
4x ancient stirrings
4x exploration
4x green sun zenith
4x crop rotation
2x warping wail
3x sensei diving top
2x pithing needle
4x primetime
1x kozilek
1x emrakul
1x oracle
1x ugin
2x candelabra
1x magus of the candelabra
Last but not least was a fun brew which has been taking a lot of people by surprise
3 Temporal Mastery
3 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Show and Tell
3 Warping Wail
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Force of Will
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Flooded Strand
1 Expedition Map
If you want to try and sweet exploration build brew try this
// Deck: 12 post turbo (60)
// Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
6 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
// Creatures
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
// Spells
2 Alhammarret's Archive
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Horn of Greed
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Elderscale Wurm
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Hi, i think Horn of greed is dangerous...Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
I'd agree, that list is full of fun stuff, but it's not a very good list, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Horn of greed can certainly be dangerous. Allowing your opponent to draw into cards is certainly not ideal. However, we can take our top end really quickly and find what we need extremely fast as a result. List is untested as of now. Hopefully I can find time to test it soon.
I will say that it's really unfortunate that there isn't actual constructive conversation rather than, "it's not a very good list" I would presume that seasoned players can come up with something a little better than that.
Horn of Greed wasn't very impressive to me when I tried running it. It falls to a lot of the same shortcomings Exploration does: the card is typically a miserable topdeck and does nothing by itself. There may be some super off-the-wall case where it's usable, but in anything resembling a traditional list, I think you're going to be disappointed. Also, keep in mind that its ability only works on lands you actually play from your hand (or graveyard, in the case of Crucible of Worlds): fetchlands, Crop Rotation and Primeval Titan will not trigger it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
I've been trying some off-the-wall brews, including a 10 Sphere effect maindeck with Ancient Tomb, and I've also tried a Retreat to Kazandu lifegain build with Alhammarret's Archive and Oracle of Mul Daya among others, but pretty both lists are only about 50/50 winrates for me, which likely means they're crappy ideas.
I am aware of how horn of greed works in reference to crop rotation, fetchlands and titan, but I appreciate you being thorough to ensure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
I will likely agree. Playing lands for value is probably really only good when it's paired with life from from the Loam which is not exceptionally viable when trying to run the old eldrazi. It was an interesting idea I wanted to try, figuring we could benefit from digging deep more than our opponent. Archive is likely a weak part and can be switched for something more relevant early at the very least.
Thank you for your input especially as it comes from experience.
Sorry, I was at work and didn't have a lot of time and I know Caprino has been prepping for an event and being new to this deck it may be hard for him to distinguish between the established core of cards and ones that are being tested out, I just wanted him to be clear because in that situation, for him, he's better off running a more stock list (of whatever color combination).Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
I do apologize, it was not constructive and I should have elaborated. My main negatives on the list were Horn and Archive, both of which Zotmaster has elaborated on already and I agree. Archive doesn't really do anything when it hits the board, it doesn't win me the game and it doesn't prevent my opponent from killing me. So for a 5 drop, it doesn't really do anything for me. And given how few slots you do actually have for techy cards, it's not at all worth it - especially since there aren't a ton of situations where you're drawing extra cards, realistically.
Fair enough. As you stated zot already clarified the weaknesses. Archive is there as way to benefit further from horn and courser as well as be a part of an engine to draw and ramp. Thank you for following up with your reasoning. Sometimes I post while I'm busy at work so I can understand the brief post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corazu
As far as a core of cards goes this is certainly not a stock list for anyone. For Caprino
This is my list for GW, it has gone through a couple changes but I got top 8 at SCG 1K providence last year with
// Deck: 12 post (61)
// Lands
4 Cloudpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
// Spells
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
2 Natural Order
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Elderscale Wurm
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Sacred Ground
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
I would love to take this deck to the next tournament next week, but I doubt whether it can hold its own against the super quick goal that we now es Eldrazi, mono white, Delver, not to mention wasteland ... what you think ?
Look other players' games, streaming, or better a local player near to you. You will understand better the pros and cons of this deck, and you'll be able to handle it better. If the tournament you are talking about is a big tournament and you are not confidant with the deck, I will suggest you to avoid bringing it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
what are the internet channels where I can see the video while playing this type of deck? thank you
I have a fantastic win rate with it vs death and taxes. It ramps a bit faster so eldrazi shouldn't be an issue so much, I have needles plus sacred ground for wasteland decks especially lands which I have had positive results against. The main issue naturally is fast combo. Non blue builds don't tend to pair well, but sphere effects and leylines can square those awayQuote:
Originally Posted by caprino
on youtube you have snapcaster, geekfortress, simply search for "12 post legacy", "cloudpost legacy", and so on. Zotmaster and ehhhhh have also their twitch channel, you can look there.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Death and Taxes (Mono-white)Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
If they don't have Cataclysm, or a nut draw of denial vs a bad draw from me, this matchup is basically a cakewalk. Needle stops Wasteland or Vial. Rishadan Port is pretty laughable aside from the first turn or two and then we just go way over the top of them. Cataclysm hurts a lot though. Warping Wail helps with that, as prior to that existing, I wouldn't bring in countermagic for this matchup so would be stone-cold dead to Cataclysm. Warping Wail is a house (on paper) vs this matchup, although I have yet to actually play the matchup since putting Wails in. It kills almost anything in their deck, counters Cataclysm or just provides a blocker/slight ramp.
Delver
I don't find these matchups to be all that bad. I haven't played against it nearly as much lately though. RUG Delver can be somewhat rough, especially if they're splashing Black since DRS gets around Glacial Chasm and Abrupt Decay can screw up your needles. BUG is really rough with Hymns, but winnable. UWR Delver is a lot faster, but they're all winnable matchups as long as you can protect for wasteland. You just have to be careful with timing and sequencing to get around Dazes.
Wasteland
Pithing Needle. Crop Rotation also helps against this, but I love Pithing Needle.
Eldrazi Stompy
This deck is why I think I'm switching to Bant so I have access to Terminus and Swords to Plowshares. This matchup is just really rough. Chalice doesn't hurt so much but they can put in way too much damage too quickly and that plus Wasteland just really fucks you up unless you can land an early titan off Show and Tell, or Platinum Emperion which most configurations won't be able to deal with aside from a slow ticking Ratchet Bomb which gives you loads of time. My friend is running Duplicant though as super awesome tech which totally bungs that plan (he runs it largely for Show and Tell in general).
Just don't watch my broadcast from yesterday, because I was awful :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Morden
I'm still brewing and will likely be streaming tonight, tomorrow or both. I would love to find room for Pithing Needle and/or Warping Wail in my brews. It's likely that the fact that I'm wishing I had both implies they should be in any configuration, but I don't let such facts get in the way of my brewing :P
What are you brewing with currently if I may ask. I love discussing and contemplating new ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corazu
Have you played this matchup? D+T is one of your worst matchups. Waste/port/revoker/thalia wreck you.
I've played this matchup a number of times, it's nowhere close to my worst matchups. Storm, OmniTell, Eldrazi, Elves are my worst matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman
For whatever caveat, I play UG. Show and Tell makes a big difference, I guess. Maybe the Monogreen builds have more trouble since they lean heavily on Candle.
I'm probably something like 5-1 vs death and taxes with gw. I think the UG version is tough for DnT as well since show and tell primeval titan is miserable.Quote:
Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman
Streaming right now with a different list. I wasn't too impressed with my last two brews, but I can PM them to you after I'm done if you're interested. Right now I'm playing a brew that hinges on Crucible of Worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
Sounds sweet. I've been trying to find a use for crucible. I recently had it in the mud list I posted on the last page or the page before that for replaying posts or using sactum of ugin since chaining threats just wins the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
I think I've hit on a brew that at least has a bit of promise. I was able to beat up on Grixis, which normally gives me some problems. There's still a little wiggle room here, and I'll get into it, but the list really plays off synergies.
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Elephant Grass
4 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
7 Snow-Covered Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Wastes
1 Windswept Heath
2 Karn Liberated
SIDEBOARD
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Spatial Contortion
3 Surgical Extraction
In my previous (terrible) brew, I really enjoyed the interaction between Crucible and Oracle. I was running lifegain effects, but the problem with those is that they don't really do anything by themselves, and while Courser of Kruphix is a solid enough body, it doesn't do enough to accelerate you. I put together this list to better capitalize on the interaction. Now you can do powerful things like fetch repeatedly to constantly get new cards with Top, recycle binned Cloudposts or whatever you sacrifice with Crop Rotation, and even be the same asshole everyone else is and Wasteland them, which comes with the added bonus of providing an instant-speed answer to Lands. Oracle and Crucible together also equal happy Glacial Chasm times, and if you have a Glimmerpost to gain you life, it should be virtually impossible to die to damage or Deathrite Shaman. The interaction also (slightly) compensates for no Needle effects, and finally, it enables an alternate win condition in Titania.
Snow-Covered Forests are for no other reason than to make people respect the possibility of Dark Depths. The fetches are diversified for the same reason. Substitutes are fine if you don't want to go that far.
Elephant Grass is the hedge against idiot swarms, and combined with Tabernacle is a reasonable way to tie up resources. True, you can still die to a single Infect creature, but you're not really any more vulnerable to it than you would have been if you were relying on Maze of Ith.
As he so often is, Karn is the question mark. The deck really wants some way to deal with that occasional problem permanent that Ulamog can't deal with quickly enough, and with the increased reliance on colored permanents, All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon are considerably less ideal. There aren't too many options besides Karn in mono-green, but at least Karn also doubles as his own win condition.
Regardless, I think this configuration has some promise. It's possible Forcefield is a better substitute for Elephant Grass, but regardless I think there is some potential here: Crucible and Oracle combined are extremely powerful.
This deck can definitely hold its own. I play a Colorless Green build. Playing around Wasteland is something you just learn to deal with. (It's one reason I don't skimp on the full 4x Crop Rotation.)Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
Death & Taxes is pretty even to slightly favorable. Pithing Needle stops Wasteland, and they have no countermagic for Crop Rotation if you don't have Needle. Warping Wail hits almost every creature they have. All Is Dust/Ugin wrecks them. Port is annoying, but you can outclass it with a single Candelabra.
Delver isn't too bad. BUG is probably the least favorable version because they have Abrupt Decay for Needle, but it's still a decent matchup. Warping Wail improves all but RUG, which has no real targets besides unflipped Delver.
Eldrazi is not a favorable matchup so far, but a lot of people on this forum have been working on ideas to deal with it. I've been very impressed with Silent Arbiter so far (which has also been great in many other matchups). If you can drop Needle under Chalice, Maze has been particularly excellent here too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Since this thread has been getting a large volume of mono green focus, here is my U/G list I have been winning extensively with:
// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [ON] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [M10] Forest (1)
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [OGW] Thought-Knot Seer
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind
I tried TKS main, but I found I was most after sideboard cards (moon, null rod, cataclysms), and the lilliana, combo pieces, hate cards were most superficial wants.
My test group has been using SoI rules for repeal, and found the change not terrible.
Oh man, Ancient Tomb is a fantastic idea that I never even considered. The number of times I've wanted to cast a T1 Warping Wail and couldn't is insane. It also lets you transition into something closer to a dedicated S&T deck as you can reasonably expect to cast T2 S&T an non-negligible percecntage of games (also why I assume you upped the number of S&T to 4 and added an extra Emperion. Great list :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Edit: is 27 land (plus another 3 in expedition map) not a tad high? Are you finding trouble with getting flooded out at all? Also, what prompted your switch from flusterstorm to swan song?
I would assume because swan song counters more types of spells and repeal can bounce the token for U.
This is kind of where I'm at right now. The sideboard is kindof meh but I really do like the ancient tombs for the snt gameplan
// Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
// Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show and Tell
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Warping Wail
//Sideboard
//Creatures
3 Thought-Knot Seer
//Lands
1 Wasteland
//Spells
2 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Tabernacle -1 warping wail -1 Swan Song +3 Thought-Knot Seer
I like to leave the trinket mage pithing needle package mainboard as it makes us much stronger against wasteland. The one wasteland sideboard is mostly for Eldrazi.
I play the mono G turbo eldrazi and would like to have some input on main boarding bayou (also have bojuka bog main) and side boarding 4 abrupt decays. Abrupt decay deals with chalice on 1, which destroys mono G's game plan, also it deals with plenty other threats that have been listed billions of times on abruptdecay.com. I have been having some troubles against Eldrazi aggro and chalice on 1, which is why I am asking. Thanks.
It is definitely a viable plan. I played around with a bg build for a while so I had post board access to discard and mainboard pernicious deeds and deathrite shamans. I believe rock lee tested something similar to that extent at least with deathrite. It was ok, not the best of builds but I did have a lot of fun with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendelton
I've been grinding on colorless mono green and have been running ratchet bomb to nuke chalice. It can still be searched up with ancient stirrings.
I used to run ratchet bomb (mostly for crazy pyro/mentor tokens) it is just a bit too slow against Eldrazi Aggro. By the time you get rid of the chalice they have a dominant board presence. Not saying that ratchet bomb is bad and I may go back to it, I just was wondering if there were better solutions out there. Thank you for your timely and kind reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop_x
If you're using it to nuke chalice it is likely that you won't be able to have stirrings dig out bomb unless you are doing it preemptively and on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop_x
Personally if I'm really that worried about chalice I am going to bring in krosan grip. Otherwise I want to focus on ramp and getting a primeval titan to fend off the eldrazi aggressors. I'm not that familiar with the match up as I haven't played it yet. But I am very curious about other people's experience so I have some idea of what to expect
I've been playing against Eldrazi at least once a tournament. Its not that bad of a matchup by my experience; maze and candelabra is pretty hard to beat. Also play 2 dismember on the side. Silent arbiter makes it pretty tough for them also.