I definitely misread the beetle (updated my post now), but I don't see how I can with either OTP or OTD, as the Beetle always walls off Shriekmaw. Looks like 2 draws to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Printable View
I definitely misread the beetle (updated my post now), but I don't see how I can with either OTP or OTD, as the Beetle always walls off Shriekmaw. Looks like 2 draws to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
That’s why you unmask the beetle OTP ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Disagreement here.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
I just noticed the Collective Defiance decks can play around Leyline by slowing down 1 turn
T1 Tinder Wall
T2 Pay 1RR from land + Wall to cast Defiance without kicker.
Tylert OTP
Reveal Leyline on turn 0
T1 T: Mutavault, Chronomaton
T1 G: Tinder Wall go
T2 T: Port. Port every turn to prevent Defiance killing Chrono, but then there's no mana for Mutavault attack or to grow Chrono. 1/1 Chrono can't attack through 0/3 Wall.
Draw
Tylert OTD
Same thing except Rhinos get suspended turn 1, Port must still stop Defiance, and then Rhinos win.
DL 1-4 (WD 4-1 for GoblinSmashmaster)
Still DD vs maxx! since Narnam Renegade is not as threatening as Rhinos.
Aha! That does it, and slow Shriekmaw does beat a 1/1. Will update againQuote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
I don't understand why we draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
OTP:
T0 = Leyline (you can't defiance on T1)
T1 = Muta, Chrono C0. Suspend Rhino R4
T2 = C1. R3
T3 = C2. R2
T4 = C3. R1
T5 = Nothing. Cast rhinos, I have a 5/5 you can attack but you'll loose anyway. if you don't attack I grow chrono to 20 with double blocker.
OTD:
T0 = Leyline (you can't defiance on T1)
T1 = Suspend Rhino R4. Muta, chrono C0
T2 = R3. C1
T3 = R2. C2
T4 = R1. C3
T5 = cast rhinos attack (20-12).
T6 = If you attack i block and grow (20-8).
T7 = You can't attack anymore I wait until I have a 20/20 and attack with mutavault backup for the win.
Can you explain your line?
EDIT: Had not seen that collective defiance could kill chrono.
I can port to draw OTP. OTD, I can't.
1-4.
6. me: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer
I know Swamp+CtW+Skimmer has been played at least several times before.
I choose Phyrexian Walker over Memnite because I figured I'd be more than 3 times
as likely to get a draw from Phyrexian Walker as I would be to get a win from Memnite.
I thought differently in the original version of this post, but due to shiftyhomunculus's correction,
I now believe the difference turned 1 loss-for-me into a draw-for-me and didn't affect any of my other games.
37 points
(4 more than before the corrections to this post)
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares LL 0-6
My creature (Walker or Skimmer) gets put to the Swords, so either of your creatures wins for you.
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment WL 3-3
when I am OTP:
Mana Skimmer has flying, so Young Wolf can't block it, which means you never untap 2 lands. As a result, you can't cast Goblin Bombardment and can't attack or block with Mishra's Factory, so my 2/2 beats your 1/1.
When I am OTD, you deal infinite damage to me on T2. (It took me a while to satisfy myself that this combo actually works here.)
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void WL 3-3
when I am OTP:
You can't cast more than 1 of your creatures. If you cast Clockwork Bettle, then my 2/2 flyer wins because only your first counterattack is with a 2/2; the rest are with a 1/1. If you cast Arcbound Ravager, then you have no other artifacts to sacrifice, and sacrificing Arcbound Ravager itself doesn't help, so my 2/2 wins.
When I am OTD, you make an infinity/infinity creature on T2, and that wins for you.
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw WL 3-3
When I am OTP, Subterranean Hangar will never untap, so my 2/2 wins.
When I am OTD, you pitch LotV to Unmask Phyrexian Walker, and then your 3/2 or 2/1 wins.
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem LL 0-6
You take 3 damage and cast T1 Lodestone Golem. You need at most 6 attacks to kill me
(Persist means I could block twice), whereas I would need 9 attacks to kill you.
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer this is me
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment WL 3-3
when I am OTP:
Your Forest will never untap, so you can't cast both Young Wolf and Goblin Bombardment. Young Wolf loses to my 2/2 flyer, and casting Goblin Bombardment requires having sacrificed Tinder Wall once. After that, Goblin Bombardment can't deal more than 1 damage, so my 2/2 flyer still wins.
When I am OTD, you deal infinite damage to me on T2. (It took me a while to satisfy myself that this combo actually works here.)
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton LL 0-6
If I don't block, then you only need 8 attacks to kill me (3 pumps + 5 attacks or 4 pumps + 4 attacks), so I must block after dealing at most 14 damage to you. That means I would need at least 13 attacks to kill you, but I can't block more than twice, so you win.
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim WD 4-1
When I am OTP, my 2/2 flyer beats your 1/1.
when I am OTD:
You would Daze CtW or Mana Skimmer, so I keep Phyrexian Walker. Nature can Claim that, but as shiftyhomunculus pointed out, it Persists as a -1/2, and Young Wolf can neither attack through that as a 1/1 nor die to make itself a 2/2.
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider WW 6-0
You can put one storage counter on Subterranean Hangar, but it will never untap after that, so my 2/2 wins.
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance WL 3-3
I originally had this one wrong too, but maxx! seems to have it right in his results post.
(Since my deck didn't go out of its way at-all to use the round-rule,
I was missing that my creatures nonetheless do get Persist. ^_^ )
When I am OTD, Collective Defiance discards my hand and then Narnam Renegade kills me.
when I am OTP:
I cast T1 Mana Skimmer. Due to flying, Tinder Wall is only useful as tinder rather than also as a wall, so on T1, maxx! chooses between Narnam Renegade and Collective Defiance. If he chooses Narnam Renegade, then Mana Skimmer keeps his Forest tapped starting on my T2 and thereby beats his 1/2. If he chooses Collective Defiance, then Mana Skimmer persists as a 1/1, keeps his Forest tapped starting on my T2, and thereby wins for me.
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom WL 3-3
When I am OTP, Peat Bog will never untap, so my 2/2 wins.
When I am OTD, you pitch LotV to Unmask me, and then your Bitterblossom wins.
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction WL 3-3
When I am OTP, Peat Bog will never untap, so my 2/2 wins.
When I am OTD, you pitch Surgical Extraction to Unmask me, and then your Bitterblossom wins.
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated LL 0-6
Maze of Ith shuts down my Mana Skimmer, so you cast Karn Liberated, exile my Mana Skimmer, restart the game, and win with your Mana Skimmer.
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity WW 6-0
When you are OTP, you get to cast something T2. Otherwise, you will never have an untapped land to cast anything. Goblin Bombardment on its own does nothing for you, so you cast T2 Narnam Renegade. That requires tapping Tinder Farm for {G}, so you won't be able to sacrifice anything, which means Narnam Renegade will be 1/2 rather than 2/3. My 2/2 has flying, so I win even though your creature has Deathtouch and can attack first.
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls LL 0-6
(Before maxx!'s results post, I had the right result here but wrong reasons.)
Collective Defiance discards my hand + makes any creature I played either -1/2 or 1/1. Even in the latter case, I would need 20 attacks to kill you, but your Rhinos kill me on T8.
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress LL 0-6
You need at most 7 attacks to kill me (Persist means I could block twice), whereas I would need 10 attacks to kill you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
If you begin with Leyline, then you can't win: jhhdk just casts Tinder Wall and has it block Arcbound Ravager.
Arcbound Ravager will never get above 2 power, so Tinder Wall can block it forever, and Clockwork Beetle can't deal more than 6 damage.
(I have not tried checking whether you can win _without_ Leyline.)
Leyline is one-sided, so it doesn't stop Ravager from growing infinitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Leyline of the Void is 1-sided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Edit: alphastryk plays Sakashima's Student using Ninjutsu
I think I actually only draw when you're OTD - Walker persists as a -1/2 and I can't attack through that, nor can I kill Young Wolf to make it a 2/2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
I would, however, have beaten a Memnite. ;)
@ alphastryk and FTW :
Oh, right. However, I still don't see how Reeplcheep wins when jhhdk is OTP:
jhhdk gets both Young Wolf and Goblin Bombardment out before Reeplcheep can go infinite, and then it seems to me that Young Wolf can trade for Arcbound Ravager, either by blocking a 1/1 Arcbound Ravager or by Bombarding it with both its pump ability and the Beetle's Persist trigger on the stack.
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares WW - This was a bad round for creature removal.
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void LL
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw DD
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem DD
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer WL
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment WL - Turn 2 kill is not the turn 1 kill I was expecting.
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton DL
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim DD
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider LL
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance DL
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom LL
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction LL
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated LL
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity LL - Narnam Renegade makes Young Wolf look hilariously bad.
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls LL - I see even you could resist the allure of Goblin Bombardment.
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress LL
4w8d = 20 points
That did not work out.
Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares
OTP I discard your hand. OTD you can play a Giant Killer first, but I can use the second mode on Collective Defiance to kill it down to a 0/1 while discarding your hand. 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
OTP I discard your hand. OTD Young Wolf and Narnam Renegade bump into each other forever. 4-1
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void
OTP I play Tinder Wall, then you play Beetle. I can Defiance your Beetle, but it persists and lives, so instead I need to discard your Ravager. That leaves me with a Renegade that can't attack into your Beetle without trading, so we stare. OTD you land both of your creatures, and I can't use Defiance as removal on either of them, so Renegade stops one but the other kills me. 1-4
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw
OTP you have to start with Leyline or I discard your hand and win. Then you have to Unmask me or I'll discard your hand on my second turn. That leaves us both with no threats. OTD is the same because your land is slow. 2-2
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem
Whoever goes first locks the other out of the game. 3-3
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer
Another turn 1 deck. OTP I discard your hand. OTD you make Mana Skimmer and I don't think I can do much about it. Tinder Wall can't block it, Renegade can't race it, and Defiance can't kill it. 3-3
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
OTP I discard your hand. OTD Young Wolf is the best you can do before I discard your hand, and then Renegade and Wolf fight forever. 4-1
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton
OTP I play Tinder Wall, you play Chronomaton, then I discard your hand. I can't race from here, so I have to stay back with Renegade. Alternatively I can kill Chronomaton with Defiance, but then I can't race Mutavault and have to stay back on defense. OTD you get to play your whole hand before I can Defiance, which means I use it to kill Chronomaton and just sit back with Renegade to block Mutavault. Or I just block Mutavault with my Wall and Chronomaton with Renegade. Lots of lines, all draws. 2-2
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim
Welcome! This is a pretty interesting meta deck. OTP I can discard your hand. OTD you can Daze whatever creature I play, but on my second turn my other creature will stick. So either Wall blocks Wolf forever, or Renegade and Wolf kill each other forever. 4-1
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider
Faerie Macabre is interesting. Fortunately your storage land is too slow to really stop me. I play Collective Defiance the safe way on my second turn to discard your hand, then Narnam Renegade once the coast is clear. 6-0
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance
This is me :]
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom
You've gotta run out the Leyline when I'm OTP or I discard your hand. If I play Tinder Wall then you have to Unmask me to force a draw. If I play Renegade instead, then you can't Unmask and play Peat Bog. I play Tinder Wall, then you can play Bitterblossom. There's no way I can race that, so I have to force you to Unmask. OTD you can play Bitterblossom before I can Defiance you, and I can't race it. 1-4
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction
This is the same as the mattamort matchup, except your "Leyline" costs you 2 life. I don't think that will change the race math against a resolved Bitterblossom in my favor, so I have to force the draw OTP and then lose OTD. 1-4Edit: You only have to threaten Extraction to keep me from comboing on my turn 1, but then you can pitch it to Unmask on your own turn to take Defiance anyway and save your Bitterblossom. 0-6
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated
Leyline makes me a turn too slow to stop Maze from landing. Your storage land is way too slow to ever land Karn. 2-2
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity
Can't beat this. Nice deck. 0-6
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls
I think your deck is just better than mine against this field. We trade wins in the mirror though. 3-3
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress
Renegade sits back forever to block. 2-2
6+4+1+2+3+3+4+2+4+6+1+0+2+0+3+2 = 43
I expected some Leyline, but not this many. I couldn't find a way to go off on turn 1 with Bombardment, so I settled for Defiance. Seems like Crashing Footfalls was the better 1-mana threat, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiftyhomunculus
Right
I corrected my results post accordingly.
(including my discussion of Phyrexian Walker vs Memnite.)
After thinking about it, I think it's WW for Goblinsmashmaster...Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
He just needs to suspend rhinos T1 everytime.
I can't grow chrono to a 5/5 before he has the mana to cast defiance anyway. So i will either loose my chrono to defiance or die by the rhinos because they are 4/4 to my 3/3 chrono.
OTP: T1 = muta, chrono C0. Forest rhinos R4.
T2 = C1. Wall, R3.
T3 = C2. Collective defiance kills chrono.
T1 win with bombardment = Taiga, tinder wall, rakdos cackler, goblin bombardment.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Looses miserably to Leyline of the void :)
And when you are OTP if you tap its Land to avoid him to cast something Chrono Will never go through its wall so DDQuote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares
Not really sure here so I'll go with what Asthereal concluded. WW
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
Macabre means you can't combo, so you try creature beatdown. I play Murderous Rider on turn 5, which is soon enough to stabilize and eventually win by playing Obliterator. WW
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void
Macabre means you can't execute your combo. Your non-combo clock is slow enough that I can Swift End your Ravager and stabilize with Murderous Rider. WW
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw
Unmask takes one of my threats, but Shriekmaw can't kill any of my creatures and can't beat them in combat so I win. WW
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem
You never can play Lodestone while I have Macabre in hand, so OTD you play Tinder Wall and I wait and play Obliterator on my turn 6. You play Death's Shadow on your turn 8. If you attack me with it while Obliterator can block you lose all of your permanents and I use Macabre to exile Timber Wall. Attacking again with the persisted Shadow just kills it and lets me win. Therefore, you don't attack with Shadow in the first place and wait. This lets me build up as many storage counters as I want on Hangar. Once I have built up an arbitrarily large number of counters, I Swift End the Shadow, play Murderous Rider, and attack each turn with Obliterator. You lose your board if you block with Shadow so you don't, and blocking with Tinder Wall just buys you an extra turn since I exile it with Macabre. Meanwhile, you can't race me with Shadow because I can chump block with Murderous Rider, put it back in my deck, and Swift End the Shadow on my next turn. I think this covers all possibilities, so I win. OTP it is the same but better for me. WW
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer
I can't do anything before you hit me with Skimmer. LL
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
Macabre on Wolf when it dies means you can't combo, so you try creature beatdown. I play Murderous Rider on turn 5, which is soon enough to stabilize and eventually win by playing Obliterator. WW
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton
I can Swift End Chronomaton, then I win if you try to kill me with Mutavault so you port me every turn and I can't play anything. DD
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim
I can Swift End your Young Wolf with enough mana to pay for Daze before I die and use my Faerie to exile it from the graveyard before winning eventually. WW
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance
I can't do anything before you make me discard my hand. LL
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom
Serguei's logic for this matchup is probably correct. LL
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction
Serguei's logic for this matchup is probably correct. LL
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated
I think neither of us can win because I can't play my creatures fast enough to threaten Karn through the Maze of Ith, so I have to hold up Swift End to deal with it. However, you can just exile my land with your one Karn ability before it dies, which leaves me with one creature and you with Maze, so we draw. DD
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity
Macabre mean you can't combo, so you try creature beatdown. I play Murderous Rider on turn 5, which is soon enough to stabilize and eventually win by playing Obliterator. WW
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls
I can't do anything before you make me discard my hand. LL
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress
Swift End is fast enough to kill the Ooze both on the play and the draw, WW.
18W 4D 10L = 58
I had no idea what would be played this week other than combo. Once I noticed that Faerie Macabre worked vs non-discard combo decks, I decided to play a grindy deck and hope people would be on decks that used things like Unmask. I spent most of my time debating Unmask vs Obliterator, and am still unsure which was correct.
I can Faerie Macabre in response to the Persist and Undying triggers when Young Wolf hits the graveyard to exile it, so you can't combo kill me and I think I can stabilize soon enough to win here since you are only attacking for 3 each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Good point. You can get Chrono up to 2/2, but then you still need to Port every turn to stop Defiance and then 2/2 Chrono is too small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Yeah, because of this I expected Rakdos Cackler more than Narnam Renegade, so I got surprised by deathtouch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Or for someone to play the slower combo (no accel) Nature's Claim to kill Leyline, so I played Duress vs that.
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated
I didn't want to lose to Bombardment, and I didn't want to lose to Leyline, which left my options feeling pretty limited.
Against all the Bombardment decks I need to restart the game twice, having stolen Bombardment first time so you can't hide your creatures from Karn. Fortunately that doesn't appear to be more complicated in any matches I see.
vs
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares // 6-0, Plenty of time to resolve Karn
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment // 6-0, Plenty of time to resolve Karn
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void // 6-0, Maze handles Ravager
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw // 2-2, Unmask takes Karn, Maze handles Shriekmaw.
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem // 6-0, Fortunately you need Wall twice for Golem, so Maze handles Shadow.
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer // 6-0, Maze handles it.
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment // 6-0, Leyline, Maze.
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton // 2-2, Port locks Karn out, Maze handles Chrono.
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim // 6-0, I might lose Leyline, but Maze doesn't care.
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider // 2-2, Edit: Forgot Rider can kill Planeswalkers. Agree on your drawing logic.
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance // 2-2, I'll get Maze but I'll lose Karn.
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom // 0-6, I can play Karn, but he can't do anything useful against a pile of Faeries.
13. Serguei: Peat Bog, BitterBlossom, Unmask, Surgical extraction // 0-6, Now I can't even play Karn.
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity // 6-0, Leyline, Maze.
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls // 0-6, Two creatures and no Karn.
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress // 2-2, Maze but no Karn.
58 points.
vsQuote:
Originally Posted by PJim
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJim
How will you get Maze when you are OTD?
maxx!'s T1 :
Forest
Tinder Wall
sacrifice Tinder Wall to add :r::r:
Persist returns Tinder Wall
sacrifice Tinder Wall to add another :r::r:
cast Collective Defiance
Leyline of the Void prevents Tinder Wall from coming back with persist, so the earliest I can cast Collective Defiance is my second turn, after untapping my Forest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Oh, yes.
With my track record on these, I'm probably wrong about the following too ^_^ ,
but at least I don't see anyone having pointed out an error in what I was thinking for
OTP jhhdk vs Reeplcheep OTD
(on the previous page).
I believe I made a conditional formatting formula to automatically
red-highlight inconsistent match-entries in the spreadsheet.
Since there might be an error, I did not apply it to our actual results grid.
Instead, I set up the 4x4 area from W21 to Z25 inclusive
as a testing area for the conditional formatting formula.
Please try out values in that 3x3 "results grid" to see if you encounter any issues.
Reeplcheep doesn't need Ravager to win as long as Tinder Wall is gone. If jhhdk plays Bombardment and shoots Ravager, then Beetle can keep recurring and attacking as a 1/1. If jhhdk doesn't, he can't stop Ravager from growing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
After finding so much t1 kill with protection from STP. We had to find a solution the opponent goes off.
First LL comes to mind and after with the versatility of sugical+ unmask I came to
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction
Because I did not want to have a lonely threat vulnerable to removals
But it was years I did not see a faerie macabre ( legacy tournaments were a long long long time ago now) but it would have been the perfect choice here instead
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares
Bitterblossom is unbeatable for you.
WW 6pts -> 6pts
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
OTP Unmask young wolf and BB beats easily mishras factory
OTD it is more complex
T1 wolf
T1 Peat bog
T2 mishra attack with wolf S19
T2 Bitterblossom
T3 Attack with wolf and mishra S16
T3 1 token S15
T4 attack with both block wolf surgical it by paying B (peatbog untap) S13
T4 1 token s12
T5 attack mishra s10
T6 2 token s9
T7 attack mishra trade
T7 1 token s8
T8 attack trade
T8 1 token s7
T9 nothing
t9 1 token attacks 1 just created S6-Wrath of Pie19
T10 nothing
t10 2 tokens attack 1 just created S5-Wrath of Pie17
T11 nothing
t11 3 tokens attack 1 just created S4-Wrath of Pie14
T12 nothing
t12 4 tokens attack 1 just created S3-Wrath of Pie10
T13 nothing
t13 5 tokens attack 1 just created S2-Wrath of Pie05
T14 nothing
t14 6 tokens attack 1 just created S1-Wrath of Pie-1
Just in time but it should be enough
Are we aligned ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I think it is WW for me
6pts -> 12pts
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void
OTP I unmask ravager and that's it :0
OTD T1 you have the choice to either play ravager or clockwork.
If you play Ravagger I will have surgical to manage the loop and avoid the draw
If you play clockwork I unmask ravager
So WW 6 pts -> 18 pts
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw
OTP I unmask your unmask and wins withBB
OTD you unmask BB and I unmask shriekmaw for a draw
WD 4 pts -> 22pts
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem
OTP I unmask tinder wall and races you with BB pretty easily
OTD
T1 17 you play wall and try to go of for lodstone and I surgical - S18
T1 Peat Bog
T2 14-18
T2 BitterBlossom
T3 11-18 Shadow 2/2
T3 11-17 1 Token
T4 Attack deal 2 or 5 -> 8-12 or 11-15
T4 I create a new token which will be blocking DS and loose a point of life each turn, and I will be able to win the race with attacking tokens
WW 6 pts -> 28 pts
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer
OTP unmask your threat and wins
OTD I will not be able to play anything
WL 3 pts -> 31 pts
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
you cannot play both WOlf and bombardement in same turn so i un mask the other and wins the race with BB
WW 6 pts -> 37 pts
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton
WL 3 pts -> 40 ptsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim
I am so sad to disagree but you are wrong XDQuote:
Originally Posted by shiftyhomunculus
I cannot do anything agains your deck same for mattamamort.
OTP we can only unmask your threat to draw. and you have all the answer to win vs BB. It looks like you designed your deck to beat mine XD
DL 1 pt -> 41 pts
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider
After making all the cases It appears that taking Obliterator is mandatory with unmask to win.
Let s count when I am OTD
T1 Subterranean Hangar
T1 unmask obliterator , peat bog
T2 1 counter
T2 BB
T3 2 counters
T3 1 token S19-R20
T4 3 counters
T4 1 token attack with 1 S18-R19
If you play Fae
T5 faerie
T5 3 tokens S17-R19
T6 1 counter
T6 4 tokens s16-R19
T7 2 counters
T7 5 tokens S15-R19
T8 3 counters
T8 6 tokens S14-R19
T9 rider
T9 7 tokens S13-R19
T10 attack with rider and bloc 5 tokens. 1 Counter S13-R21
T10 6 tokens S12-R21
T11 2 counters
T11 7 tokens S11-R21
T12 3 counters
T12 8 tokens S10-R21
T13 Rider
T13 9 tokens S9-R21
T14 1 counter. attack with rider. 7 tokens S9-R23
T14 1 new token + 1 token in defense attack with 6 tokens 1 blocked and killed S8 -R18
T15 2 counters
T15 1 new token + 1 token in defense attack with 6 tokens 1 blocked and killed S7 -R13
T16 3 counters
T16 1 new token + 1 token in defense attack with 6 tokens 1 blocked and killed S6 -R8
T17 rider
T17 8 tokens S5 -R8
T18 attack with rider 1counter 6 tokens S5-R10
T18 1 new token attacck with 6 tokens S04-R5
T19 attack with rider 1 counter 6 tokens S5-R10
T189 1 new token attack with 6 tokens S03-R0
it is a WW for me
WW 6 pts -> 47pts
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance
OTP unmask tinder wall then BB races easily
OTD you cannot go collective and BB races easiliy once again
WW 6 pts -> 53pts
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom
Nice find
DD 2pts -> 55 pts
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated
Unmask Karn then win both OTP and OTD
WW 6 pts -> 61 pts
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity
Surgical will manage the persit triggers and BB will win
WW 6 pts -> 67 pts
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls
I can only unmask crashing OTP to draw
LD 1 pts -> 68 pts
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress
DL 1 pts -> 69 ptsQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Instead, can't you Daze the Walker, forcing Phasmoid to tap the land, and then Claim Walker on your turn? When you're OTP you should win this.Quote:
Originally Posted by shiftyhomunculus
Asthereal's results for round 5:
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares <-me, going waaaay offbeat
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment LL 0-6
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void WW 6-0
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw WW 6-0
(You Unmask Plow. I play lands and attack with Factory until you drop Maw for no value (either as 2/1 or even more slowly as 3/2). If you attack, I can attack back and win the race. So you keep Maw back. I attack, you block and we both persist. You into a 2/1, me into a 1/1 land. Then I cast Killer, allowing me to win the race.)
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem DD 2-2
(I can Plow Golem, and eternally tap Shadow with Killer. I don't see a better line.)
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer WW 6-0
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment LL 0-6
(I don't see how I can time Plow, making you sac the Wolf without being able to keep the combo going. Might be wrong, but I think Plow isn't good enough here.)
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton WD 4-1
(I cast Killer as soon as I can. Only then do I Plow Chrono. Now if you Port my Factory, I can attack with Killer and nibble on your life total. If you don't, I can attack with Factory, which trade with Muta. Muta comes back as 1/1. From here I can attack with the 1/2 Killer. OTP this is fast enough for the win, OTD I have to take the draw.)
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim WW 6-0
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider LL 0-6 (did not plan for this..)
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance LL 0-6 (good deck!)
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom LL 0-6
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction LL 0-6 (didn't expect Blossom at all...)
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated LL 0-6 (can't stop Walkers)
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity WW 6-0 Overlooked the fact that you can't play your cards in a favorable order.
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls LL 0-6
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress DD 2-2
Total: 38 points, disagreements settled
Your results make sense, will update the spreadsheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
You're quite right, thanks for pointing it out! Somehow missed that I could deny your win condition too OTD. I've updated my results post and the spreadsheet accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
This makes more sense to me than Tylert's analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
He has Factory as a 2/1, which may be the error. 2/2 Factory forces trade with 2/2 Mutavault, both persist and trade again, and then 1/2 Giant Killer eventually breaks the stalemate. (Porting Factory loses to Giant Killer beatdown)
The lifegain from StP does not matter enough to force a draw, because Asthereal can attack back with +1 power (3 or 2) if Mutavault attacks. That extra attack power is more than the StP life.
I have leyline of the void guys.... Factory doesn't come back.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Right, Leyline. All my other oponents pitch that one to Unmask so I kinda forgot about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
So OTP I go:
A: Plains, Killer
T: Muta, Chrono
A: Factory, attack for 1, T=19, Plow Chrono, T=20
T: Port (now if you attack for 2, I attack back for 3 and win, if you Port, I attack for 1 and also win, so you wait)
A: Attack with Factory, you block and trade, Muta comes back as 1/1
T: Can't attack yet, as Killer is 1/2 and your guy is 1/1, so you wait
A: Attack with 1/2, you go to 19 first
T: Attack back, now I go to 19
And I win this race.
OTD you're a turn faster, so I can't win the race and have to go for the draw.
4-1?
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I stack the triggers to let Rider persist on turns 10 and 14 instead of putting it back in my library, which I think would do enough chip damage or kill enough of your tokens that I might win?Quote:
Originally Posted by Serguei
I don't see how that would help shiftyhomunculus against me at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana SkimmerQuote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim
Homunculus OTP
H: Wolf
P: Walker. Any attempt at Culling or Mana Skimmer loses to Daze.
H: Claim the Walker. -1/2
P: Pass. Any attempt at Culling or Mana Skimmer loses to Daze.
H: Cannot attack 1/1 into -1/2.
Draw
Dazing the Walker doesn't stop that line. The issue is that Walker > deck.
Phasmoid OTP
P: Walker. Culling. Mana Skimmer
H: Wolf
P: Skimmer taps land forever and races Wolf
DL 1-4 for Shifty
(WD 4-1 for Phasmoid)
I dont think this line works as well if we decide to attack earlier and let rider as 1/2 forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa
T10 attack with rider and bloc 5 tokens. Rider persists as 1/2. 1 Counter S13-R21
T10 6 tokens S12-R21
T11 attack 1/2 S11-R22
T11 1 New token, Attack with 6 Tokens, 1 is blocked S10-R17
T12 attack 1/2 S9-R18
T12 1 New token, Attack with 6 Tokens, 1 is blocked S8-R13
T13 attack 1/2 S7-R14
T13 1 New token, Attack with 6 Tokens, 1 is blocked S6-R9
T14 attack 1/2 S5-R10
T14 1 New token, Attack with 6 Tokens, 1 is blocked S4-R5
T15 attack 1/2 S3-R6
T15 Attack with 5 Tokens, 2 are kept for block on turn16, S2-R2
T16 attack 1/2, block with token S2-R3
T16 Upkpeep go to S1-R3, attack with all token S1-R-2 Serguei wins
Attacking or not attacking with Faerie is identical as we always blocks with the summoning sick token, and you kill one token per turn either by blocking / attacking. The only turn it changes is the last one since we have to block both creatures, otherwise we would die to BB.
Example without Faerie attack
T11 attack 1/2 6 tokens S11-R22
T11 1 New token, Attack with 6 Tokens, 1 is blocked, 6 Token left S10-R17
Example with Faerie attack
T11 attack 1/2 + Faerie, Faerie is blocked 5 tokens left S11-R22
T11 1 New token, Attack with 5 Tokens, None is blocked, 6 Token left S10-R17
As usual, we first find turn 1 decks, all of them died to GY Hard, so GY Hate would be very popular.
From there, I had two options : The best GY deck or The best anti gy deck. I loved Chancellor G, Tinder Wall, Force of vigor and Golem but it had two issues, losing to some combo on turn 1 (but decent vs bombardment)+ losing to people that would play other hate than leyline. So lets join the LL side.
Many options available from very aggro (with DS mostly) to very control, we ended up in the middle.
12. mattamort: Leyline of the void, Unmask, Peat bog, Bitterblossom
The entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Plains, Mishra's Factory, Giant Killer, Swords to Plowshares
Bitterblossom is unbeatable for you.
WW 6pts -> 6pts
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
OTP Unmask young wolf and BB beats easily mishras factory
OTD Leyline in Play
T1 Wolf M20-W20
T2 Peat Bog M20-W20
T3 Mishra M19-W20
T4 BB M19-W20
T5 Attack wolf + Mishra M16-W20
T6 BB creates Token M15-W20
T7 Attack wolf + Mishra, Wolf is blocked and is exiled M13-W20
T8 BB creates Token M12-W20
T9 Attack Mishra M10-W20
T10 BB creates Token (2 Tokens) M9-W20
T11 Attack trade M9-W20
T12 BB creates Token (1 Token) M8-W20
T13 Nothing
T14 BB creates Token (1+1 Token) M7-W19
T15 Nothing
T16 BB creates Token (2+1 Token) M6-W17
T13 Nothing
T14 BB creates Token (3+1 Token) M5-W14
T16 BB creates Token (4+1 Token) M4-W10
T18 BB creates Token (5+1 Token) M3-W5
T20 BB creates Token (6+1 Token) M3-W-1
I think it is WW for me
6pts -> 12pts
3. Reeplcheep: Crystal Vein, Arcbound Ravager, Clockwork Beetle, Leyline of the Void
OTP I unmask ravager and that's it :0
OTD, Leyline is played
T1, Vein, sac for ravager is not an option since BB easily beats a 1/1, so Beetle it is
T2, Peat Bog
T3, Ravager, attack with beetle M19-R20
T4, BitterBlossom
T5, Ravager Sac Bettle, attack for 2, M17-R20
T6, BB create token (1 Token) M16-W20
T7, attack for 2, M14-R20
T8, BB create token (2 Token) M13-W20
T9, attack for 2, blocked M13-R20
Since I start with higher life total than vs Wrath, I win here as well
WW
6pts -> 18pts
4. alphastryk: Leyline of the Void, Unmask, Subterranean Hangar, Shriekmaw
OTP I unmask your unmask and wins withBB
OTD you unmask BB and I unmask shriekmaw for a draw
WD 4 pts -> 22pts
5. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, Tinder Wall, Lodestone golem
I play Leyline
OTD
T0 Leyline, you can not play golem
T1 Citadel M20-D17
T2 Peat Bog
T3 Citadel M20-D14
T4 BitterBlossom
T5 11-20 Shadow 2/2 M20-D11
T6 BB creates Token (1 Token) M19-D11
T7 Attack with DS deal 2 or 5 leading to -> M14-D8 or M17-D11
T8 BB creates Token (1+1 Token) M18-D10 or M13-D7
From there I blocked, with the untapped token and we lose 1 life each turn
WW -> 28Pts
6. Phasmoid: Phyrexian Walker, Swamp, Culling the Weak, Mana Skimmer
OTP : Unmask on Skimmer
OTD : I cant answer Skimmer
WL -> 31Pts
7. jhhdk: Forest, Tinder Wall, Young Wolf, Goblin Bombardment
Leyline is played
OTD
T0 Leyline
T1 Wolf
T2 Peat Bog
T3 Wall + Attack M19-J20
T4 BitterBlossom
T5 Bombardment + Attack M18-J20
T6, BB create token (1 Token) M17-W20
T7 Attack, Trade and BB wins from here
WW -> 37Pts
8. Tylert: Leyline of the void, Rishadan port, Mutavault, Chronomaton
OTD : I can never cast BB
OTP : BB beats chrono + Vault
WL -> 40 Pts
9. shiftyhomunculus: Tropical Island, Young Wolf, Daze, Nature's Claim
The deck designed to beat mine :D
OTP : I can unmask wolf leading to draw
OTD : Daze and Claim are answer to BB, cant do much
DL -> 41 Pts
10. RoosterCocoa: Subterranean Hangar, Phyrexian Obliterator, Faerie Macabre, Murderous Rider
See Serguei Analysis
WW -> 47Pts
11. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Wall, Narnam Renegade, Collective Defiance
OTP unmask tinder wall then BB races easily Narnam
OTD two options
T0 Leyline
T1 Forest Wall -> To threaten collective Defiance next turn
T2 Unmask Renagade -> This is a draw
ou
T0 Leyline
T1 Forest Renagate
T2 Peat Bog
T3 Wall
T4 Blossom -> This is a win for me
I guess you take the draw
WD -> 51Pts
13. Serguei: Peat Bog;BitterBlossom;Unmask;Surgical extraction
DD -> 53 Pts
14. PJim: Leyline of the Void, Maze of Ith, Icatian Store, Karn Liberated
Karn is unmasked, BB wins
WW -> 59Pts
15. silkster: Tinder Farm, Narnam Renegade, Goblin Bombardment, Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline in play
BB beats a 1/2
WW -> 65Pts
16. GoblinSmashmaster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Collective Defiance, Crashing Footfalls
I can only unmask crashing OTP to draw
LD 1 pts -> 66 pts
17. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Badlands, Bloodhall Ooze, Duress
DL 1 pts -> 67 pts