[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Neat suggestions.

I'mma try the Phyrexian Metamorph idea. I like there being an answer to Kira, Thrun, Progenitus, and Emrakul that's the same card, as well as something that lets me play more than four Meddling Mages. Not a whole lot of other things I'd need to copy, really, but the fact that he could randomly be an opponents' Divining Top or something could be pretty neat.

Dream Tides is pretty weird tech. I'd be afraid to rely on it to stop Thrun, as decks that run Thrun almost always have enchantment removal in some form. But it's a neat ability nonetheless.

Klaus your missing stoneforge mystic. Cut the ponder, and the shackles and run that card. It's clearly miles ahead of shackles, and it gives control a superior beater (Batterskull)

I feel that 4 Mistep is clearly too many.

It seems barely correct not to maindeck Wrath in Knightstill. It certainly doesn't make sense in U/w. Phyrexian Metamorph is an infinitely weaker and less versatile answer to Metamorph than Wrath. For all the memetic nonsense about how Wrath is bad, its main shortcomings are against Merfolk, and Metamorph is no better as an answer there, and far worse when you can stick it.

This might be a noob question but what is knightstill. Is it the new lists with stoneforge or did i miss something.

IBA is refering to the list he posted 1 or 2 pages back (featuring Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf).

I believe the Hatfields piloted a variant of UWg control list packing KotR as a resource/win condition fetching Mazes/Wastes etc.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Klaus your missing stoneforge mystic. Cut the ponder, and the shackles and run that card. It's clearly miles ahead of shackles, and it gives control a superior beater (Batterskull)

I feel that 4 Mistep is clearly too many.

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tbh, I haven't tested Batter Skull + Mystic, but in theory it should be an extremly common scenario to go Mystic -> Skull and have Mystic removed the same turn, blanking the neat ability to cheat Skull into play.
I think I might give it a shot, but generally I clearly prefer to blank my opponents removal suite over rocking a combo that only works like 40% of the time. It's simply to fragile if you consider all you opponent's removal just stacks up over the game.
Thoughts?
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4 Missteps is the correct numer if you rely on resolving STPs through opposing Missteps as much as I do.

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Originally Posted by klaus

tbh, I haven't tested Batter Skull + Mystic, but in theory it should be an extremly common scenario to go Mystic -> Skull and have Mystic removed the same turn, blanking the neat ability to cheat Skull into play.
I think I might give it a shot, but generally I clearly prefer to blank my opponents removal suite over rocking a combo that only works like 40% of the time. It's simply to fragile if you consider all you opponent's removal just stacks up over the game.
Thoughts?

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Klaus i agree with you fully it did well at GP because it was unknown now people are running more cheap removal or artifact hate out of the board. I have been running a UWR list that did well at Bazzar of Mox 5 that i had add mental missteps to and been testing.

1 Academy Ruins
4 Brainstorm
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
1 Island
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Sower of Temptation
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Divine Offering

the mental missteps were 3 spell pierces and 1 Nevinyrral's Disk disk. This list during testing has done well against a lot of the aggro decks and stoneforge decks but is a little weak to control. Any advice would be great

Just picked up some Jaces, want to try a fairly classic list out. Any glaring oversights in this one?

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Island
1 Celestial Colonnade

I would find room for a Volcanic/Underground/Tropical so you can set EE at 3.

Why isn´t there any discussion going on about the whole UW Stoneblade Landstill variants? Is this a different thread or isn't there any interest in the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull & friends?

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Why isn´t there any discussion going on about the whole UW Stoneblade Landstill variants? Is this a different thread or isn't there any interest in the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull & friends?

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I was planning to ask the same question as well. Is there a seperate thread for the UW Stonestill?

I was also wondering if it is optimal to run 4 MM? Thanks

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Originally Posted by paladin3056

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Originally Posted by Tom T

Why isn´t there any discussion going on about the whole UW Stoneblade Landstill variants? Is this a different thread or isn't there any interest in the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull & friends?

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I was planning to ask the same question as well. Is there a seperate thread for the UW Stonestill?

I was also wondering if it is optimal to run 4 MM? Thanks

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I too was thinking the same thing. Search function doesn't reveal much.

As for the 4 MM - I think so, it hits so many targets in the format and having another way to react on turn 1 for free is always good :)

the reason this deck HAS to play misstep 4 is the namesake standstill ! lose the counterwar for vial against merfolk T1 and you will see why...

You ought to be running Repeal, so no, 4 Mental Misstep is not necessary or, in my opinion, optimal. I think a 4 Force/3 Misstep/3 Counterspell split on the countersuite is a reasonable starting point.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

You ought to be running Repeal, so no, 4 Mental Misstep is not necessary or, in my opinion, optimal. I think a 4 Force/3 Misstep/3 Counterspell split on the countersuite is a reasonable starting point.

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Misstep is the mainreason LS is experiencing a revival.
I'm too lazy to do the math, but being able to cast Standstill due to Misstep having cleared the way on turn 0.5/1/1,5 is a very common scenario in my testing.
Unless everyone starts cutting their 1-drops it's quite unlikely I'll be cutting a single Misstep in the future.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Misstep is the mainreason LS is experiencing a revival.
I'm too lazy to do the math, but being able to cast Standstill due to Misstep having cleared the way on turn 0.5/1/1,5 is a very common scenario in my testing.
Unless everyone starts cutting their 1-drops it's quite unlikely I'll be cutting a single Misstep in the future.

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That's simply not true. The reason landstill is seeing a revival is because Gerry T and Drew Levin piloted landstill, and some guy thought it would be a cool idea to run ancestral visions over standstill.

These type of things happen every few years. Some guy tries to reinovate the control deck, another guy plays ancestral visions because it's "super sweet"

The bottom line is that the speed-still approach is quite simply not as resilient as more traditional variants. You mine as well be playing UW tempo with a splash for some slightly better cards.

4 Mental Misstep is clearly incorrect, and if you can't see it; I don't know what to tell you Klaus. Landstill runs between 22-24 lands, not counter cow or dragon, adding in 4 misstep's clearly hinders your late-game. In my own opinion I feel like landstill shouldn't be playing misstep at all, but that's just me. If your opponent is playing vial the nominal percent of the time he draws it on 1 or 2 and he's goblins/merfolk/slivers/ some versions of maverick then I guess i'm just going to have to accept my responsibility to force it, and see if the force gets there. If not, I guess I just have to resolve my threats like normal, instead of falling for this trap that is a tempo war. Your not trying to gain tempo, your trying to break theirs. By playing into the misstep war, or a vial war your accepting that you cannot continue the game without dealing with such cards. I don't think this is the correct approach at all.

I agree with moss for most parts, but I'll disagree on that MM is 'useless' in Landstill.

For one, at least people are not dumb enough to cut Snares/Counterspells in favor of MM. This is definitely the wrong decision to cut Snares/Counterspells since there are many bombs that can't be answered without Counterspell/Snare/FoW. At the same time, MM functions very similarly to what Snare does. The question is: Are there enough targets and worthwhile threats that need to be countered by MM the way Landstill favors playing Snares? I think the answer is yes. For the time being.

MM hits Vials, Lackeys, Thoughtseize/Duress/Pierce, Ritual, High Tide, SDT, Nacatl and a TON more important spells (e.g. GSZ/Hierarch in Bant which accelerates to an unfavorable KotR/NOGenitus a turn faster). Moss, you are dead right in saying that MM isn't for Landstill if it's used as an edge to gain tempo advantage. This I agree with you dead on and people who pilot Landstill using MM with this mentality is doing it wrong (e.g. GerryT's UW LOLstill with repeals and Llawans and Submerge). However, I feel that most people who've come to see what MM does in the format (in tempo decks) can also observe what MM does if it's used outside of gaining an edge. In Landstill, when I play with MM, it's the same reason as I play with SNares: I anticipate a meta of relevant 1cmc bombs. Sadly the format is still filled with one. Landstill does fine without MM like it did in the past, but with MM, it frees the use of FoW for later game-breaking counter fights. I usually don't MM at every chance at get despite the feeling that it maybe a 'dead' card in hand. This train of thought is wrong. You use MM/Snare when the situation demands it (i.e. do you have EE in hand etc?). I think this is the key difference between maximizing the power of MM in control decks. For myself, I see MM in the same light as Snare, with the added benefit of actually powering out Standstills (this is a huge boon of MM but I primarily see it as a counterspell similar to Snare).

I don't think it's wrong to run 1-4 MM, just as I don't think it's wrong to run 1-4 Snares. I do think it is wrong if someone thinks that they need to play 4 MM to be a successful Landstill pilot. THe number of MM in your deck is directly correlated to what the strategy of the deck is employing, to which I agree with Moss that Landstill may or may not need it, depending on which approach it is heading. Moss pointed that the 'speedstill' approach of 1-1'ing and then playing an x-1 spell to gain late-game advantage is not as strong as the traditional approach. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I think that's one way of looking at it. At the same time, there are just about enough benefits of MM to justify or at least question if MM should be played like a counterspell that functions similarly to Snare. I personally like playing 3 MMs. If I don't draw them early game, too bad for me, but I know that I play 3 MM because I'm worried about 1 mana spells that do affect my game, whether it's early/mid/late-game. That's the reason you play cards in decks. If I'm playing MM just to gain a boost in the early game, then that's ENTIRELY the wrong reason to play MM in a control deck, because if you don't draw MM early, you lose. However, if your maindeck is playing MM to account for its deficiency to 1cmc bombs at any point in the game (not just early game), then MM becomes much justifiable to play, and has the additional bonus on answering early game 1cmc threats when you do draw MM early, or setup for a standstill.

Less talk, Knappstill-ish list that I've been testing and bringing to my playgroup for more testing tomorrow:


60 UWr Scepterstill
24 Lands (23+1Edragon)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Plain
2 Island
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon

6 Win
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor


13 Permission
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

9 Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
2 EE

9 Draw
4 Brainstorm
1 Top
3 Standstill
1 ETutor


15 SB
2 REB
2 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Peacekeeper
1 Path to Exile
1 Humility
1 flex slots (2nd Scepter being played here right now)


This list has a very strong matchup against aggro decks, in particular SFM/Merfolks/Bob/Goblins/Elves/Zoo. The weaker matchups are mid-range Rock/KotR decks, which have to be played more tightly given the loss of sweepers maindeck. 1 Scepter in the MD was the last testing I've done about 6 months ago, and it worked great when you drew it with something to imprint (over 14 hard spells to imprint).

The 2nd Scepter is brought in against decks with little artifact removal (Merfolks/non-GWx aggro/Control/Combo). 2Negate/2REB in control mirror along with 3 Cliques has been pretty solid, Relic + Peacekeeper against GY-based decks e.g. Dredge/Reanimator and Negates/Peacekeeper/Humility/REB against Show/NOBant decks. Path comes in against Tombstalkers/KotRish decks. So far the list seems too tight and I've been trying to squeeze the 4th Standstill. I decided on the lone ETutor instead of the 4th Standstill to reduce the awkward situation where I open with no MM/FoW against Vial decks.

@Lightning Helix. I've tested Fire//Ice in its place. In all honesty, Fire//ICe is stronger these days due to huge prevalence of Bobs/Cliques/NORug/Merfolks/Tribal/SFM, but I still end up prefering Helix (due to Zoo in my meta), and the ability to race control/aggro/combo when you imprint Helix on a scepter. I remember the good days where I would race 5-power merfolk Lords with Helix to the face when going to time. Helix also surprises opposing Jace if they decide to brainstorm (somewhat narrow but it has that option, and it kills Nacatls as well).

Will let you know on testing. I made a promise to quit playing Landstill for awhile, but I just can't help but sleeve it out again.

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4 Mental Misstep is clearly incorrect, and if you can't see it; I don't know what to tell you Klaus. Landstill runs between 22-24 lands, not counter cow or dragon, adding in 4 misstep's clearly hinders your lategame as it takes away card quality later in the game. In my own opinion I feel like landstill shouldn't be playing misstep at all, but that's just me.

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I think it is just you. Does the fact that any deck ending in "-still" sucked ass between the debut of Triton's Minions and MM's printing not indicate to you it's necessity as a 4-of? Gerry may have started the trend, but the best players in the world (i.e. the pros) universally used a full set in their various whatever-still control decks in Providence. Those who've written about it even testified that it had become another automatic slot alongside Brainstorm and Force of Will for said decks. Just like that, pure(r) control became viable again overnight.

Powerful 1-drops exist in Legacy, many of which can mark the beginning of the end for slow [Ux] control if they're not dealt with quickly and efficiently. Sometimes, those 1-drops aren't cast on the first turn which means Misstep, contrary to popular acknowledgment, is not dead on turns 2+. If it's reeeally a problem, you can just Brainstorm (a very Misstep-able spell) it away with one of the 4 JTMS you should also be running. "Traditional" lists still suck now as much as they did starting in 2008, which is why they're still not top 8ing events and still not being played except by the handful of self-titled old guard players who can't help but remember what Landstill was like in Type 1.5 when it was "super sweet," always forgetting the entire last 3 years.

@ Metalwalker: May I remind you that you shouldn't run any less than 3 EE?

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I personally think that SDT (as a three of ) + Path to Exile is a better early-game plan than Mental Misstep + Spell Snare.
As Moss said you're not particularly furthering your own gameplan with Misstep (and Spell Snare) that is hitting your land-drops and then smashing with 4cc bombs. SDT, on the other hand, ensures your land-drops while digging for a sword/EE.
If Mental Misstep enables Standstill, that's another point I admit, but I don't think that MM enables Standstill on a consistent basis, since you're not the only one running MM.

I don't know what Moss is suggesting, though.

Guys,

I'm writing a primer for the UW Stone-Blade archtype so discussion about the deck doesn't mix with the original UW Landstill archtype.
However, I don't have enough experience with the deck to make a correct match-up analysis.
I was wondering if the more experienced players would be interested in helping with the match-up analysis. A PM would be great!

Thanks in advance,
Tom T.

@ catinthecat:
Thanks for that very true analysis on MM in U.Control.

@ moss:
Don't forget that we have Bs, FoW, Top, and sometimes Ponder to address unneeded late game MMs.

Any tips on a game plan against UR Painter?

What UWx build are you playing?

- Snare on Painter, MM on Welder
- StP on Painter in response to Grind
- EE@2 on Painter in response to Grind (it's best to set this on 2 against Servant instead of 1 against Grindstone)
- Extirpate (if they play Intuition)
- Grudge/Grip are good against this matchup (UWg builds are not as popular)
- Needle isn't ideal (since they can REB it) but it works on Grindstone
- Disk is slow, but if Disk/Deed ever resolves, it's over for them. Humility should always be boarded out against this matchup
- If they decide to be cute with Show and Tell postboard, you can be cute with Tariff (which kills Painter if they don't go Emmy, or kill the Emmy if they Show'd you the FSM).

I've played against Painter multiple times, and find the Imperial Painter builds to be much more brutal than the fast combo that is in the DTB section. Imperial Painter can sometimes screw you with Moon/Jaya, making it difficult to fight, but the UR Painter is much easier to beat since they usually go for pure combo/speed which you have many outs to.

I think it will be better served if we actually discuss what MM counters that your worried about if this is the kind of discussion you wish to have. I would also like to see where you value such a threat IE something like the following.

Threat level


Difficulty
vial

Medium
lackey

Easy
nacatl


I think then we can actually determine if this card has value versus something like snare or counterspell.

Me myself I prefer a package that looks like this:

4 force
3 counterspell
3 snare

removal
4 stp
2 ee
2 moat
1-2 wrath

draw
4 bs
3 still
2 jace

I don't feel like jace deserves four slots in the deck.
I don't think there is anything that can or should be labelled as a "pure control deck" as you put it.
I do not feel mistep is absolutely useless in landstill, but I do feel like there are absolutely better options to fight a tempo war with these decks. Sure your stp/bs/ee etc can get countered, that doesn't mean you have to fight wars your not going to win against tempo strategies which pride themselves on controlling the early game with mana denial/ back-breaking dazes. spell pierces, mm's, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?

I think it is just you. Does the fact that any deck ending in "-still" sucked ass between the debut of Triton's Minions and MM's printing not indicate to you it's necessity as a 4-of? Gerry may have started the trend, but the best players in the world (i.e. the pros) universally used a full set in their various whatever-still control decks in Providence. Those who've written about it even testified that it had become another automatic slot alongside Brainstorm and Force of Will for said decks. Just like that, pure(r) control became viable again overnight.

Powerful 1-drops exist in Legacy, many of which can mark the beginning of the end for slow [Ux] control if they're not dealt with quickly and efficiently. Sometimes, those 1-drops aren't cast on the first turn which means Misstep, contrary to popular acknowledgment, is not dead on turns 2+. If it's reeeally a problem, you can just Brainstorm (a very Misstep-able spell) it away with one of the 4 JTMS you should also be running. "Traditional" lists still suck now as much as they did starting in 2008, which is why they're still not top 8ing events and still not being played except by the handful of self-titled old guard players who can't help but remember what Landstill was like in Type 1.5 when it was "super sweet," always forgetting the entire last 3 years.

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While I don't think 4 Mental Misstep is "clearly incorrect", this post is putting an entirely unhealthy emphasis on what is. It's important to look at what's winning, but the best deck at a tournament usually doesn't win, and the absolute best deck 75 in a metagame (certainly in Legacy anyway) will almost never even be registered.

I think this is particularly important to keep in mind when discussing Landstill, which I think is experiencing a resurgence largely because of Misstep, although some of that is indirectly so, by causing the format to slow down.

Hey Guys,

I was wondering for the right number of Super Jaces and Elspeth1.0s in the deck? I have most of the pieces (I run Merfolk, Quinn and CounterTop Thopters) outside of the Tundras, Moats and Jaces.

Would this deck do fine with minimal to no Tundras? It might sound suboptimal but I'm staying away from dual lands as much as possible.

Does anyone have a sample lists that incorporate both Jace and Elspeth that I can start working on?

Does the deck really need Stoneforge Mystics?

Thanks in advance

I run 2/2 Jace/Elspeth split. Most people these days run 3 Jace and 0-1 Elspeth (usually no Elspeth). I strongly believe Elspeth is much better than Jace in an aggro environment, and resolving Elspeth deals easily against a resolved opposing Jace.

Jace is played because in a favorable board position, he immediately wins you the game with fateseals/brainstorm and bury your opponents in a stage he can't recover. Elpseth serves a different purpose: she is incredible at getting you out of an unfavorable position (which Jace is terrible at).

I play with 3 Tundra for about 1-2 years now. The deck probably cannot go below 3 Tundras if you're planning to play WW-based spells like Humility/Moat/Elspeth. Blue is the primary color (so basic Island is valued higher than basic plains) but if you're playing WW-based spells, you can't drop below 3 Tundra IMO.

Read a few pages back on lists. I always play 2-2 Jace/Elspeth splits. I don't recommend the most recent list I posted because playtesting I wasn't doing so well. The UWb builds that I've posted on previous pages are pretty standard and strong.

I believe SFMstill isn't really under the playstyle of Landstill. It's a strong strategy but I feel the deck isn't classified under the Landstill archetype, but rather under a Stoneblade archetype that I don't understand why we still don't have a thread/primer opened for one under DTB/Developed because the deck is for real.

Notes: Yesterday, I had an EE against Batterskull in play. I plow'd the SFM and EE@0 the germ token, just thought I mentioned that was an interesting play against an otherwise annoying situation :P

Metalwalker, you played 2 Top for a long time, then upped to 3 Top (p. 235), but then you finally arrived at 1 Top. I'm curious why the fluctuation? I'm personnally a big proponent of 3 Top. I think Top is an excellent early-game card just like Misstep, Snare, or PtE, but I would like to hear your opinion (and the opinion of anyone else).

I was making space for more 1-1 pinpoint removal. 2 Top is great in a build that is constantly digging every turn, countering/Stp'ing the only relevant threats, then follow up with a sweeper. I didn't enjoy the list I posted on last page. 1-1'ing bob/SFM is really not the way to go. I'm open to Shackles etc but I feel Shackles isn't stellar in Landstill due to the lower island count. However, with Cliques/Bobs/SFM/Maverick/Merfolk being ever more popular than Goyf/Knights.dec, I think Shackles is indeed solid even with Landstill's manabase.

I'll give it a shot again. I like Top much more than Ponder (that Klaus is playing in his list). I felt a little underwhelmed with just 1 Top after my brainstorm gets MM'd (and I fight back with MM because that particular brainstorm was very much needed). 2 Top is what I primarily play with. I played 3 Tops a few months back because of Counterbalance in the board (great against combo/High Tide/burn/zoo etc) but since MM was printed, I dropped the Counterbalance in the board and went back to 2 Top. I tried the 1 Top in a more speedstill approach of having a stronger early game against faster Bob/SFM/merfolks deck. Didn't pan out too well because it was still hard to keep up with Bob/SFM in particular.

I did steal a couple of games with Scepter/Helix against UWb Stoneblade (lol). After some playtesting, I feel that the loss of sweepers and end-game x-1 spells was not worth the initial better gameplan with additional 1-1 removal.

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Originally Posted by Iron Buddha

Metalwalker, you played 2 Top for a long time, then upped to 3 Top (p. 235), but then you finally arrived at 1 Top. I'm curious why the fluctuation? I'm personnally a big proponent of 3 Top. I think Top is an excellent early-game card just like Misstep, Snare, or PtE, but I would like to hear your opinion (and the opinion of anyone else).

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I've also gone through this fluctuation over the years. Started with 1, upped it to 3, then 0 and now still debating between 1 and 2.

I had been testing the deck a while with no Top, as was the style of the time, but I decided to try 1x for my first "big" tournament with the deck (170~ people) and it performed well and I managed to sneak into the Top 8.

So I upped it to 3... and I found that it did a very good job of letting me not lose, but not a great job of helping me win. That is, I picked up a TON of draws.

I had a number of tournaments where my record was something like 5-0-3, ending in 9th/10th place because you stretch games out with topping and often top lets you delay the inevitable when you're in a losing position. So rather than just losing/scooping game 1 or 2 and having time to roll them in game 3, you drag it out (unintentionally), and now you don't have the time to even shuffle up and end up taking a draw.

Well I got fed up quickly, and decided top was a crutch and I would just be a badass and not run it at all like the old days and just get by with a very consistent build (lots of 4 and 3 ofs). This is a workable strategy, and has it's merits, but in the end it just didn't feel as powerful despite solving the "tons of draws" problem.

So now I'm back to 1x, flirting with the 2nd, which I feel is a good balance of utility and real answers/threats.

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Originally Posted by mossivo

Me myself I prefer a package that looks like this:
cards

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You and most landstill players for the past several years. In that time, Landstill was never a tier 1 deck, nor was it even very good. CBtop just did everything better. But times have changed. The decks are faster and the format's #1 bogeyman since Coldsnap is gone. Moat and Wrath are no longer reliable stabilizers by themselves against aggressive decks with 16 counterspells or where half their damage is burn-based anyway. EE went from a slow, crappy card with the versatility to get around CB to just being a slow, crappy card.

The "neo" blue disruption package looks like: 4 FoW, 4 MM, 3 Snare, 4 BS. It trumps the classic Landstill suite in basically every way; any counter you pay for, they pay half to stop you and they run just as much of it. What are you even trying to stall into, assuming you don't just get run over? One of your two Jaces? An Elspeth? Against other slow blue decks, you're running exactly half as many of the single most powerful card in the matchup. Against aggressive decks, you're banking on expensive 4-mana trumps that all of them have ways to get around anyway, if you can resolve them without dying (a very, very big if).

If you choose to "accept your responsibility" to Force every potentially backbreaking cmc 1 card, you also choose to accept your responsibility to lose to them because you'd rather put your faith in expensive catchalls. Before NPH, it was a cost you had to pay if you wanted to play the archetype. Now, you have a free unconditional 1:1 counter. Eschewing it in favor of the same cards that were mediocre when they were "good" is just negligent.

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Originally Posted by IBA

While I don't think 4 Mental Misstep is "clearly incorrect", this post is putting an entirely unhealthy emphasis on what is. It's important to look at what's winning, but the best deck at a tournament usually doesn't win, and the absolute best deck 75 in a metagame (certainly in Legacy anyway) will almost never even be registered.

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Yes and no. Yes, it's statistically provable that the "best" deck in a metagame is more likely not to win a tournament in which it's registered. But no, that does not mean classic Landstill is anywhere near it. Here we have a bunch of players who insist the classic UW Landstill shell is optimal. Objectively, since Merfolk entered the Legacy metagame, the deck has failed to put up any kind of consistent positive results. But all of a sudden, Landstill is a tier 1 deck. Even if none of the lists putting up numbers every week is optimal, they all have some things in common. One of those things is 4 Mental Misstep. Another is 3+ (usually 4) JTMS. Could it be coincidental that all of these decks are winning despite these 8 slots, rather than because of them? Sure. Is it likely? Mmm probably not.

People tend to insist that the current version of a deck is the best until someone, usually a pro comes along and wins a tournament with something new and flashy and then everyone jumps on that ship.

But to say that the 2008 builds of Landstill are insufficient is not to say that the Gerry Thompson build is optimized.

RogueMTG, that is indeed a valid point. But theoretically it comes down to the player being able to evaluate the gamestate correctly. I'd say with Landstill you have a very good knowledge of what your deck can and cannot do, because what it can do is excatly your 4c bombs:
Cards like Wrath of God/Humility/Moat usually turn things around if they resolve no matter the gamestate, and Standstill/Jace immedietaly puts the nail in the coffin afterwards. - So you can judge pretty well whether your plan is worth it or not.
---However, that's theory of course.---

But I have to say that my two favourite Landstill variants ever are the one of Citrus God p. 169 (I'm aware that it's two years old) and Mana Drain's list p. 223. They both run 3 Top. What I like about them is that they perform very straight forward.


I really like mossivo's setup. Assuming 24 lands he has now 7-8 cards to play with.

At least one of those should be some kind of artefact/enchantment removal (third EE, Oblivion Ring, Cunning Wish, etc.). Gerry Thompson made that mistake in the SCG Open Louisville: he cut the Repeals, and ended up having no maindeck answers to artefacts/enchanments. He "lost handily to Joe Bernal's Bitterblossoms".

Two more slots should be dedicated to card draw, else the deck is losing consistency: Top, Standstill, whatever.

That's 4-5 remaining slots.


You can't ever run less than 3 Counterspells, LSV and PV did in the GP, but I'm very sure that this is an awful idea. Counterspell is a fundamental part of Landstill's lategame consistency.

Your evaluation of EE I don't understand. EE is a tier one card, am I wrong?!

Wrath of God/Humility/Moat: I'm very sceptical if a list doesn't run 3 of those. Jace and Standstill fail under severe pressure. Don't forget that Mutavault is a huge threat for Jace. Do you really want to get out of the worst case scenario with pin-point removal? Also, Mental Misstep relegated Spell Pierce to the SB, good thing. Daze you can draw out simply by playing into it in the first couple of turns.


EDIT:
I suggest this layout:

24 lands

// counter: 10
4 FoW
3 CS
3 Snare/CS/MM/Cunning Wish

// removal: 10
4 StP
3 EE
3 WoG/Humility/Moat

// draw: 10
4 BS
3 Standstill
2 Top
1 Top/Standstill

// win: 3
3 Jace/Decree of Justice

// 3
3 open slots

I made top 4 today in a 28 player 5 round swiss + top 8 tournament with the following list:

4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Moat
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Misdirection
3 Peacekeeper
1 Volcanic Island
2 Pyroblast
2 Vendilion Clique

Round 1 TES 0-2
Round 2 BW 2-0
Round 3 Burn 2-1
Round 4 RUG Order 2-0
Round 5 GW with Fauna Shaman/Vengevines 2-1
Top8
Quarter finals Aeon Bridge 2-1
Semi finals Hive Mind 1-2

GW Maverick won TES, Cephalid Breakfast and Hivemind in the top 8 and won the tournament.

Congratz! Too bad you didn't face Merfolk, as I believe this is Landstill nightmare :( (the only reason why im not playing the deck...)

On a related note, expecting a lot of Zoo + Merfolk + aggro control + aggro tomorrow. I expect very little combo/dredge.

Should I decide to pick Landstill, how am I to optimize it for that meta? Red for maindeck Helix/Bolt/Fire and ice/pyroclasm effect?

the only question I have is, what happend in the first round? 0-2 vs. TES with this deck?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omega

Congratz! Too bad you didn't face Merfolk, as I believe this is Landstill nightmare :( (the only reason why im not playing the deck...)

---

There were at least 3 Merfolks in the room, they were all destroyed by gw decks. My side plan was 3 peacekeepers + misdirections to protect them (from dismember) but I havent actually ever gotten to test these.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

the only question I have is, what happend in the first round? 0-2 vs. TES with this deck?

---

G1 He broke 2 standstills and I was starting to beat him with factories but then he warrens'd for 8 goblins, I had full grip of fows/counterspells and active jace, he had massed a lot lands on the table with the standstills being there so I couldnt really counter anything before the warrens. I dealt slowly with the goblins (lack of Engineered Explosives showed here.. couldnt find wrath either, I was mainly fatesealing him with jace to not let him have tendrils) he got me low enough life total and used the tendrils he had been holding whole game to kill me :frown:

G2 He went for 16 tokens with pyroblast back up on turn 2 after duressing me turn 1, I could only get to 3 mana while holding day of judgment.

I didnt find myself needing explosives in any of the other games though, here it would have been MVP.

Made top 8 at a 40ish person tourney with Landstill today.

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Moat (borrowed, probably better as Wrath 2)
1 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Underground Sea

SB:
3 Extirpate
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Planar Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux
2 Engineered Plague
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Oblivion Ring

The SB was pretty terrible, but nearly every single card in the maindeck pulled its weight. The mana was a little iffy, and I definitly punted my t8 match, but whatever. I will play it again soon.

I have a little dilemma:


2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


OR


4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor