i'm cheap. I've skimped on the polluted delta.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
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i'm cheap. I've skimped on the polluted delta.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Not to sound callous, but this isn't the budget thread either. For discussing deck tech and construction, money is not an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Team America is probably one of the last decks I'd look into building if you are budget conscious. What with all the duals (Underground Seas no less!), Wastelands, Goyfs, Thoughtseizes, Cliques, Jaces, etc. it is perhaps the most expensive deck to build outside of fringe cases like Candelabras, Imperial Recruiters or Lands.dec.
And for a reason. These cards are among the most powerful in the game, and with that comes a high demand. Now that BUG is proving itself to once against be the most powerful color combination in Legacy, the prices of some of these cards are only going to continue to raise in price. It is unfortunately one of those cases where having a big wallet can trounce the players with less disposable income.
Personally, I'd be fine with a mass reprinting of all the old staples if it meant the Legacy player base grew. But this not the topic for that discussion. I do think we will probably see some of these cards come down in value with Modern Masters, and Force of Will, Onslaught fetchlands and Wasteland will probably be reprinted at some point.
I've been playing this deck quite a bit. very fun deck. Sadly i sold my goyfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I do have a question. how are you guys dealing with burn? just straight counters?
Hymn essentially gains us 6~ life. Amazing spell in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
If Deathrite Shaman survives, he can gain incremental life from dead creatures.
Goyfs and Tombstalkers race and can block their smaller threats. Early Delvers can't be ignored for forever and can potentially outrace their burn spells.
Daze and Force of Will can prevent their big spells from resolving, such as a lethal price of Progress.
Abrupt Decay takes care of any creatures or fancy spells they may try to bring in such as Sulfuric Vortex or Meekstone.
We play 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders and a Sylvan Library. Mono Red burn is forced to play from the top of their deck.
Out of the board, we have Spell Pierce, Scavenging Ooze, some builds have Jitte, and others may run BEB/Hydroblast.
Honestly, this matchup isn't as bad as it used to be, assuming you are running Team America and NOT BUG control. Force of Will/Daze their turn 1 Goblin Guide if you can. If possible, don't play a Goyf until he'll be big enough to survive a Bolt. Don't play a bunch of lands unless you have to to help avoid a Price of Progress blow out -- you can also Waste your own lands or keep Daze'd island duals back in hand unless you really need the mana. I am usually able to pull through against Burn 2-1.
UR Delver is another story, and is closer to being a 'real' deck to be concerned about. As BUG becomes more of a metagame monster, I'd not be surprised to see more players pick up the UR archetype.
I wasn't really playing burn, but more UR delver. I actually took him out and brought in removal. I may be doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I also don't run jittes and ooze in the board. Maybe thats my problem.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Snuff Out
Has everyone dropped stifle?
I've kept mine in trimming sylvan, 1 hymn and 1 ponder.
I run 3 stifle, and 3 hymn. Rest of the deck is the same as Dans.
It has been great everygame. Am I the only one who is keeping stifle in maindeck?:cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsey
Hymn i can see you take out, but 1 ponder and a sylvan library is rough
I havn't missed them vs having the stifle.
Saved my biscuits vs deed last night. :laugh:
Has anyone used Vapor Snag in their builds. I'm really not a huge fan off Snuff Out/Dismember, and thought that it might be possible to replace them with a couple snags. It does boost the blue count in the deck, and the damage is a nice little bonus.
Yes, I've given it a whirl and I think it ranges from awesome to lackluster. In certain situations, I would rather have a Vapor Snag over any other removal, but in others, Vapor Snag is just plain awful. Snagging a Tombstalker or a flipped Delver = awesome. Snagging a Snapcaster Mage, Stoneforge Mystic, Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Ringleader, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Vendilion Clique, Tarmogoyf, or any other creature with a coming into play effect and/or low casting cost (aka easy re-cast-ability) = lackluster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Larry
I think it depends up your build and your expected meta. Vapor Snag has the nice benefit of being able to 'save' your own creature, perhaps vs. a control match-up. It is also superb in removing key blockers to push through the last points of damage. Vapor Snag has some nice interactions with discard as well. However, I wonder if a card like Disfigure just isn't better?
That's true on the snags, I guess it can be awful against a great many creatures in Legacy. Disfigure is interesting, the only problem I see with it is that it does nothing to Tombstalkers, and most Goyfs or Knights. Then again, I suppose Submerge is the best answer for Stalkers in the mirror, and Decay hits everything else worth hitting. Maybe 2 Disfigure to go along with 4 Decay? Think I might try them out, hopefully I get time to test this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
The major reason I like Disfigure is because it is a turn-1 answer to opposing Deathrites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Larry
You lose the flip, your opponent goes fetch->land->Deathrite. You have to take that Deathrite out. If you let it live, it just opens up too many possibilities for your opponent's turn 2. Do they ramp in Liliana or Shardless Agent, do they Wasteland your land and then Hymn you?
Disfigure (or Dismember) is the answer to turn 1 Deathrite. While it's true that Disfigure does not hit everything, it is the best answer that we have.
Theoretically I like Stifle a lot too, but I think the idea is that the deck has moved more towards tapout and away from leaving mana up for things like Stifle, Snare, and Pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsey
I went to my first event Wednesday evening near Washington DC. I had a couple strategical issues come up, and I'd like to address them to see how other people regard them.
Tempo- I've had this topic come up with multiple players, and I'm consistently told the same thing: I should be putting down a threat and going in, and that to not play to that is a mistake. Quantifying what "tempo" means is difficult, and even if there were some uniform definition I'm not sure it would be correct to always play to it anyway. As a point of contrast, I tried taking to the mindset provided by Drew Levin and his two rug delver articles from the last year since the decks operate pretty similarly on paper. He describes the disruption as versatile and cheaply-costed, and that it's okay to trade one for one with the opponent if you have a way to win eventually.
Now this isn't to say that it's correct, but it's been working pretty well for me so far. Thoughtseize in particular seems to aid this strategy immensely, telling me how to prioritize my other disruption, telling me when I should try to race the opponent, telling me exactly what to Ponder for, etc. The way Thoughtseize has played out for me, I either find myself forming a plan around it to play more aggressively, or it becomes "I hate this card, get rid of it" so I don't lose to any one card...at least immediately. Slow-rolling games also helps just by openly suggesting to my opponent to play around Stifle, which is not as good of a bonus but at least it's something.
I also had an interesting game against rug where I chose to go second to have an extra card, but I had several players tell me that this was a bad idea. From my very limited experience, a mulligan is brutal because I don't have any ways to make up the loss of a card, so going second becomes a way to trade half of a turn for the extra card. Finally, I got into another discussion about turn 1 Ponder, where I said that if I'm not looking for anything in particular, I'll just pass and hold the ponder until I know what I should be looking for.
This covers a lot of diverse angles on how the deck operates and at what speed. I guess my overall question is, which slower lines of play are correct, or am I approaching the play incorrectly on a theoretical level? Also, why? I know some of these questions are very play-specific, but I'd like to stay general at first to use it as a basis for future learning.
Stifle- I had some interesting plays with this card the entire night. Often, I saved it looking to counter a specific action in a match rather than blowing it as a land destruction. Other times, I intentionally waited for a Brainstorm to use it on the fetch shuffle as a weird counter. I've been told that Stifle is supposed to destroy a land 90% of the time, and if that is not the case then it's a bad card. Are there any opinions on sandbagging a stifle for other utility purposes and intentionally ignoring fetches?
To be clear, I'm more interested in technical proficiency and playing the deck correctly over card choices. Card choice obviously matters but I think approaching competitive play as a new player makes the technical aspect more important.
There really are no hard rules for when to play Ponder, as sometimes it is correct to play it on turn 1, and other times it's better to wait and see what your opponent is playing. It's not really quite like Brainstorm since it doesn't necessarily gain in power the same way the longer you hold it, and in fact since it's a sorcery you may want to play it earlier in order to spend your subsequent turns actually doing something more meaningful with the available mana.
We also play 4 copies, so it's not quite the precious resource that control decks running 1 or 2 see it as. It is pretty fantastic and crucial for winning the top-deck war.
If I'm on the play against an unknown opponent and don't have a Delver, Daze, FoW or Shaman but *do* have a Ponder, I will likely Ponder in an effort to find either a Daze/FoW for their potential turn 1 play or to find a suitable turn 2 play. Sometimes you also need to burn a turn 1 Ponder in an effort to find additional lands if you're land-light or know you're up against a deck packing Wastelands.
If you're on the draw, it's typically easier to know what to Ponder for, or if you even need to based on the rest of your hand.
Thoughtseize is a great strategic card, and I think it is a suitable replacement for Hymn to Tourach if your metagame is more focused around combo and control. However, Hymn is a devastating early play and fits in with the current 'tap out' model of playstyle that seems to be working well for TA builds.
Jammed about 5 matches against my friend playing OmniTell. I think I lost 4 of the game 1s. I realized how weak this deck is to the OmniTell matchup. Hymn only does so much, they can fetch basics to prevent wasteland easily. And with Sol-Lands it's very easy to play around Daze. Hymn is only occasionally good (its an attrition card) and it often hits cantrips and lands which they already have in their hand. They also run Dazes, which can punish us for playing our cantrips / applying pressure too early.
We ended up 2-3 (him taking 1 match over me). I think the sideboard configuration should be better to help with this matchup. Not really sure what.
I don't think the new BUG Delver deck is really the "tempo" shell that people are used to with the UW / RUG a little bit back. BUG decks play cards like Sylvan Library, Tombstalker, Hymn to Tourarch. Hymn and Sylvan provide attrition against the grindier matchup and Tombstalker does what Tombstalker does. BUG is different from RUG in the fact that RUG's cards are significantly losing value each turn unless you have a boardstate that forces the opponent to play into it. They run cards like Stifles to strap the opponent on mana, forcing them to play into their soft-counterspells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
BUG doesn't necessarily do that. Delver of Secrets is still a threat the opponent must answer at any stage of the game, and Hymn to Tourarch is usually a very good top deck regardless. Tombstalker allows you to go over the top of many decks mid-late game. Deathrite allows you to grind the opponent out and gain access to many more plays on turn 2-3 with the help of fetches.
I don't think this new BUG Delver shell is the only way to build it. I still have a thing for decks with Sinkholes / Stifles, especially with Deathrite, turn 2 Sinkhole backed up with Daze seems very very good. If you truly want a tempo BUG Delver build, you need to refine the decklist and change it. Probably changing Hymn -> Thoughtseize is one of the first thing I would do. Adding Spell Pierces in the mainboard for additional disruption. RUG has many of the "blow-out" hands where they have everything in their opening 7 that answers your first 3-4 cards you lay down. This deck does not seem to do that from the matches I've played with and against it.
I think taking a slower-grindier line of play with this deck is acceptable, but I wouldn't want to ever be on the draw against RUG Delver in my opinion. Deathrite is probably one of the more important cards in that matchup and slamming it down turn 1 without disruption (or even them main phasing a burn spell on it), is something I want to do. I hope this answers some of your questions about this deck.
Thoughtseize v. Hymn
Hymn is a 2 cc card. The 'stock' list runs 11-15 turn-1 1-casters (3 Deathrite, 4 Delver, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm- if you want to cast Brainstorm turn 1).
The 'stock' list runs 5 turn-2 casters (4 Goyf, 1 Sylvan Library) - I discount Abrupt Decay and Tombstalker because you don't really want to Abrupt Decay on turn 2- maybe something crazy like Counterbalance or Stoneforge Mystic, but even if the opponent played a turn 2 Goyf, I would still opt to play my own or to Hymn them. Tombstalker - you aren't going to have delve 8 on turn 2.
So, the main reason I run 4 Hymn over 4 Thoughtseize is that it better fits the deck's mana curve.
I'll play Thoughtseize in the board all day long. Also, vs. aggro/burn, you don't really want Thoughtseize (due to the -2) and Hymn is still good.
Hymn also has the possibility of hitting lands and other random goodness. If an opponent keeps a 2-3 land hand, plays a land turn 1 and you happen to hit his/her remaining lands, then you are on the fast track to a win.
Hymn helps grow Goyf bigger. Hymn fits better with the Wasteland plan (because you can discard lands.)
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Hym is far superior in this deck then Thoughtseize.
In fact, I would not even play Thoughtseize in the sideboard as when you board Thoughtseize in, it is likely not to get creatures but rather it is likely boarded in against combo, control or the bad burn match up and paying the two life is painful and/ or unnecessary in these circumstances. Therefore, I prefer Hym in the main deck and duress in the sideboard over Thoughtseize in the context of this particular deck.
Speaking of aggro version, what do you guys think of this version here.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=70464
He top-ed a 55 man event a while ago and somehow it seems to be good in the european metagame.