[Deck] Elves Combo

Why I like pact over wish:You get sideboard slots. Period. In testing originally with a wish list, I would get ranched by BUG and Junk over and over and there was nothing I could really do about it. Since changing to a pact, and then to a fauna shaman list, those matchups have become a lot better. Also, in a combo list, in tutor slots 5-8, you need to hit the card while you are going off. Then 2 mana in those situations is HUGE. In my experience, the ONLY times I've died to pact are games where I was pressured super hard and forced to go for it (sick draws from merfolk, burn, zoo, etc), but in those games living wish wasn't going to win me anything because of how slow it is. The only card I ever felt good wishing for was emrakul, because then I already won.

Anyways, I've since moved on to the Parmat fauna shaman list because my meta is swarmed with RUG and UW blade. These are traditionally kinda hard matchups, and I'm very surprised at how hard vengevine smashes them. U/W is GOING to use their first and maybe their second plows on a symbiote or a heritage druid, then your vengevines go very much unmolested. Of the tier 1 decks here on the source, maverick can be kind of swingy, like if they have an early punishing fire and you don't grab a progenitus, they win. Otherwise, you beat them. The 2 GY decks are the only real bad matchups and if you have an explosive start, you can get an ooze out and just smash their face in while stopping their combo. Still a bad MU though.

Kich: You yourself have admitted that lords are slow and clunky. Why do you run a singleton archdruid instead of 3 priests? Engineered plague isn't really a card that sees any play these days.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Your list is green white with mirror entity..why..would you consider running Fierce Empath to begin with? You don't run the same expensive shit mine does, I'm talking about converted mana cost, not money :eyebrow:.

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My list is mono green and runs the same 3 cmc your list runs.

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Originally Posted by lord182

My list is mono green and runs the same 3 cmc your list runs.

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Ah sorry misread your previous post. Would you mind describing what you meant by it being clunky? Even when I've drawn them in my opening hand it was never "clunky". My list runs so smoothly nothing really feels clunky. Some key points to my list is that I focus entirely on the combo and run a lot more one drops than other lists run. I don't focus at all on lords, just straight 1 cmc combo potential. With so many 1 drops and 3 maindeck birchlores, comboing on turn 2 is a very real possibility and combos on turn 3 are superbly fluid. I found when I ran 3-4 archdruids and 3-4 priests I would just dump -way- too much mana into them.

I run a singleton Archdruid for the rare event of needing to aggro someone out. It helps a bit and turns your set of crappy 1/1 dudes into at -least- somewhat threatening 2/2's. It also gives me a second lord in the event of getting priests extracted or something, it's never really been an issue.

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Originally Posted by resum

Why I like pact over wish:You get sideboard slots. Period.

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This is a completely valid reason. Unfortunately, despite the emphatic use of "period" you list other reasons which I consider less valid.

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In testing originally with a wish list, I would get ranched by BUG and Junk over and over and there was nothing I could really do about it. Since changing to a pact, and then to a fauna shaman list, those matchups have become a lot better. Also, in a combo list, in tutor slots 5-8, you need to hit the card while you are going off. Then 2 mana in those situations is HUGE. In my experience, the ONLY times I've died to pact are games where I was pressured super hard and forced to go for it (sick draws from merfolk, burn, zoo, etc), but in those games living wish wasn't going to win me anything because of how slow it is. The only card I ever felt good wishing for was emrakul, because then I already won.

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It's worth noting here that Living Wish can be a control card where Pact can't be, and thus can alleviate pressure from a certain subset of decks by keeping, for instance, a Karakas/Bojuka Bog/Faerie Marcabre in the board. Or even a Tabernacle, which is surprisingly irrelevant against Elves.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

In the nearing a year of my experience playing summoning pact in Elves I have died 0 times to it. Claiming that the risk of dying is at all a consideration is simply wrong.

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Resum apparently differs, as do I. I have in fact killed Elf opponents with their own Pacts before. It feels wonderful. Besides, if you have to sit with it in your hand and do nothing when under duress then it's a dead card, where Wish would be letting you grab potential outs or otherwise develop your position.

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Summoner's Pact lets you recover your game state for free, if you're at the point where you're tapping Priests of Titania for mana it's usually that you've already won.

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These two ideas seem disconnected. Summoner's Pact isn't free in counterpoint to the first. In the second place I agree, but I wasn't the one talking about how good Pact was with active Priest. I never had problems winning with Living Wish and active Priest.

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The most important aspect of elves is the first few turns and how well you can recover. Living wishes are slow, they're mana intensive for when you need them, and keeping emrakul outside the deck is irrelevant. Running a singleton Emrakul main deck versus the one in the board is as statistically insignificant as running your 4th symbiote in the board. That's not even the largest issue. It's the simple fact that Living Wish is worse than summoner's pact in too many situations.

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This is incoherent. The marginal cost of running a Symbiote in the board is only having 11 rather than 12 ways to get Symbiote maindeck; the marginal cost of running Emrakul main is having a dead card to draw a good chunk of the time.

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Situations in which you aren't comboing out with nettle sentinels, living wish sucks

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Again, this simply isn't true and makes me suspect you haven't tested it. Which is fine but then don't pretend you have. In the combo situation Pact is much better. The entire advantage to running Living Wish is that it's superior when you're not comboing off, because if you can't combo off Pact costs twice as fucking much.

I mean that and giving you a wider array of answers and flexibility (albeit at the cost of sideboard space.)

I mean at this point I'm not even saying that it is correct to run Living Wish, I haven't tested either build in the current meta; I'm more annoyed that your arguments for why not to run Wish are simply wrong. There are good arguments against Wish but "it's dead when not comboing off" is as far as possible from being one of them.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Ah sorry misread your previous post. Would you mind describing what you meant by it being clunky? Even when I've drawn them in my opening hand it was never "clunky". My list runs so smoothly nothing really feels clunky. Some key points to my list is that I focus entirely on the combo and run a lot more one drops than other lists run. I don't focus at all on lords, just straight 1 cmc combo potential. With so many 1 drops and 3 maindeck birchlores, comboing on turn 2 is a very real possibility and combos on turn 3 are superbly fluid. I found when I ran 3-4 archdruids and 3-4 priests I would just dump -way- too much mana into them.

I run a singleton Archdruid for the rare event of needing to aggro someone out. It helps a bit and turns your set of crappy 1/1 dudes into at -least- somewhat threatening 2/2's. It also gives me a second lord in the event of getting priests extracted or something, it's never really been an issue.

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I said sometimes it's clunky because rarely needed to fetch Emrakul that way when comboing and now I maindeck Fauna Shaman so I fetched what I need with her. Don't get me wrong Fierce Empath doesn't work in my list but it's the best way to fetch Emrakul if you don't play with Fauna.

I said that Living Wish sucked when you aren't comboing off because it does. It's not dead, I explicitly said that it's not like you can't win with the card, it's just not as good.

At what point did Resum differ? He elaborated my point that you never really die to Summoner's Pact and even went on to explain that Living Wish wouldn't have done anything anyways because it's slow and 2 mana is a big deal.

There's too many scenarios and card setups where having living wish will not let you combo that turn when you need to in order to win. I tested living wish for 3 months straight and lost too many games to it sitting idly in my hands not doing anything because it cost too much to play.

Pact is free, I've had to pay for it twice without comboing off, I was under absurd pressure and it was a hail-mary at that. Living Wish won't win those situations, or if they would, enlighten me. What's your sideboard look like?

Situations in which you aren't comboing out with Nettle Sentinel do suck with living wish. If your three elves are 3 elves that aren't nettle sentinels, you tap for 3, you play a dude, draw a card, if that card is Living Wish and you need to play it to keep going, there's a decent chance you're fucked.

There are combos that involve burning pretty much just tutors in order to keep going, at the very beginning of the combo when mana is most important, paying 3 mana for a heritage druid or a nettle sentinel is too risky. If you have to do it more than once, you're paying 6 mana for 2 creatures, sorry, that just doesn't fly with me. The way you describe the card to me and my experience with the card says that it's more of a card that can give you hope to an already lost game, but you're not going to win anyways. I'd rather have a sideboard plan against reanimator/dredge, not 4 cards maindeck that require it to not be countered and for me to go first in order to just have them play around it and win anyways. I would rather opt for speed over flexibility. That's it.

Sideboard space, speed over flexibility, turn 2 wins, and easier/more ways to start the combo. My list has a pretty decent shot at turn 2 wins, and game 1 that's what I would aim for against other combo decks.

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Originally Posted by lord182

I said sometimes it's clunky because rarely needed to fetch Emrakul that way when comboing and now I maindeck Fauna Shaman so I fetched what I need with her. Don't get me wrong Fierce Empath doesn't work in my list but it's the best way to fetch Emrakul if you don't play with Fauna.

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I would say that Fauna is pretty terrible as a tutor unless you have some way to give her haste. Better opponents will just kill her and slow you down. You can't use her on your combo turn unless she's already been in play and you lose creatures you should be playing.

What are you discarding to her that you don't want on the field?

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I said that Living Wish sucked when you aren't comboing off because it does. It's not dead, I explicitly said that it's not like you can't win with the card, it's just not as good.

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This is patently untrue. I've often used the 2nd turn to L-wish for Cradle or Viridian Shaman prior to going off. Not every hand is going to be a Glimpse-ready hand, and those are often bridged by playing Visionary (why aren't you running 4 btw?) or GSZ for a piece. Living Wish acts the same way by setting up your combo phase.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Quick note since I'm tired as fuck. Made top 8 in a 53 man tourney with the list a few posts above, then promptly lost to TES in 4 turns. Total run: 5-2 (11-4).

Bonus: Decklist!

4 Forest
2 Bayou
7 Fetchlands
1 Gaea's Cradle (only own 2 in paper, so make due with what I got)

4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Birchlore Ranger
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Regal Force

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Living Wish

Sideboard:
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas (wanted to show-boat for infinite turns, but never got the chance)
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Terastodon
1 Emrakul

3 Krosan Grip
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress (lacking 'Seizes)

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This was back from April. I would still run this list today if I decided to test Living Wish again.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

This is patently untrue. I've often used the 2nd turn to L-wish for Cradle or Viridian Shaman prior to going off. Not every hand is going to be a Glimpse-ready hand, and those are often bridged by playing Visionary (why aren't you running 4 btw?) or GSZ for a piece. Living Wish acts the same way by setting up your combo phase.

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Outside of the cradle, pact can do the same thing on your combo turn and not give your opponent a turn to think about it. I don't see how that changes what I said about it. It even lets you play the shit you probably should have played turn 2 anyways. That being entirely true, I don't think it's as good as pact. It produced speed bumps of mana that were unnecessary, it can't hit redundant copies of something, and it fucks with your sideboard for games two and three.

Summoner's pact is a better tutor because it costs zero mana.

Think about it for a second, why does high tide decks run pact of negation over counterspell? Counterspell won't make you lose if you fizzle out right? It only costs two mana. Can be used on turns outside of the combo turn. Sounds like counterspell is the better card than pact of negation.......on paper.

That being said Summoner's Pact is strictly intended for a fast combo style elves deck only.

I'm not actually particularly interested in arguing over which the deck should run at the moment, as, as I mentioned, I haven't tested the deck much lately and don't think it's a good meta choice.

I was only pointing out that the reasoning why was terrible. The reason given was that Living Wish is only good when going off. In fact Living Wish is damn near always worse than Pact going off; Living Wish is at its greatest relative value over Pact when you can't go off, since that's when Pact costs four mana and you have the most need for setup spells or answer cards.

Currently, I would never run a pure combo list of elves in any meta. Punishing maverick, stoneblade, and RUG tempo are the 3 most popular decks and they all have very favorable matchups against the 7-8 tutor emrakul style elves. The list I currently run is a mono-G fauna shaman list, but I'm working towards getting the cards to run a UG intuition list. You're a turn to two slower, which hurts against storm, reanimator, and dredge, but storm is already hated out by stoneblade and RUG tempo who have tremendously good matchups, and reanimator and dredge will be suppressed by the fact that dredge just won the last starcityopen.

IF I were to run an emrakul elves list, I personally like the summoner's pact list more because of the fact that pact is better when you're starting to go off. IBA is right in that living wish is better when you're nowhere near going off because then you can grab something situationally good. One thing I liked about the living wish version over the pact version was that you could just win off of some untappers and a mana lord, but the technology of fierce empath mitigates that advantage of living wish. The only reason I personally would run living wish over summoner's pact is that you get an effective 7 copies of Gaea's Cradle. That card is just that sick. (about dying to summoner's pact, I only really died to it during my first few weeks of playing when I got greedy with a cradle or a mana lord or something when I should have played around removal. either that or I was dead the next turn no matter what).

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Originally Posted by resum

Currently, I would never run a pure combo list of elves in any meta. Punishing maverick, stoneblade, and RUG tempo are the 3 most popular decks and they all have very favorable matchups against the 7-8 tutor emrakul style elves. The list I currently run is a mono-G fauna shaman list, but I'm working towards getting the cards to run a UG intuition list. You're a turn to two slower, which hurts against storm, reanimator, and dredge, but storm is already hated out by stoneblade and RUG tempo who have tremendously good matchups, and reanimator and dredge will be suppressed by the fact that dredge just won the last starcityopen.

IF I were to run an emrakul elves list, I personally like the summoner's pact list more because of the fact that pact is better when you're starting to go off. IBA is right in that living wish is better when you're nowhere near going off because then you can grab something situationally good. One thing I liked about the living wish version over the pact version was that you could just win off of some untappers and a mana lord, but the technology of fierce empath mitigates that advantage of living wish. The only reason I personally would run living wish over summoner's pact is that you get an effective 7 copies of Gaea's Cradle. That card is just that sick. (about dying to summoner's pact, I only really died to it during my first few weeks of playing when I got greedy with a cradle or a mana lord or something when I should have played around removal. either that or I was dead the next turn no matter what).

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Would you mind posting the mono-g fauna shaman list? What exactly is the fauna shaman for? Pitching VV's to find business?

I'm currently fiddling with U/R Delver and Turbofog, but maybe I'll grab some vengevines and fix up a mono-g VV version. I feel like elves always has potential, it's tough that virtually all forms of hate hit the deck, but it's hard as shit to fizzle and Vengevines can be pretty unstoppable sometimes. I can see how interactions with Symbiote and Ranger can let you swing out 3-4 vengevines in one turn for minimal mana investment.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Would you mind posting the mono-g fauna shaman list? What exactly is the fauna shaman for? Pitching VV's to find business?

I'm currently fiddling with U/R Delver and Turbofog, but maybe I'll grab some vengevines and fix up a mono-g VV version. I feel like elves always has potential, it's tough that virtually all forms of hate hit the deck, but it's hard as shit to fizzle and Vengevines can be pretty unstoppable sometimes. I can see how interactions with Symbiote and Ranger can let you swing out 3-4 vengevines in one turn for minimal mana investment.

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It's almost the same as Oliver Parmat's list. It's really well tuned.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2368&d=215777
I have my sideboard adjusted for the local meta of course. Also -1 Gaea's Cradle -1 Virdian Shaman +1 Pendlehaven +1 Viridian corrupter because of card availability. If i were playing at a GP or something I would get the 4th cradle.

Hello all,

I recently qualified for the SCG Invitational through a Standard qualifier, and I need a Legacy deck for the tournament.

I have experience playing Combo Elves in Overextended (while it existed), as well as Aggro elves in Extended, Scars Standard, Modern, and Overextended. I play Legacy Affinity on MODO and have had some success with the list, and I have decided to either play that or elves for the Invitational in Baltimore. I'm here to ask you for your help and for your advice, because I don't think Affinity is quite good enough.

Last night I cashed in a few modern decks and put this list together online:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Birchlore Rangers
2 Priest of Titania
2 Quiron Ranger
1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Green Sun's Zentith
1 Crop Rotation

12 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven

I don't have a board together yet but I jammed some games online and came up with these initial conclusions:

1. Reanimater is impossible

2. Dredge is a bad matchup

3. A lot of opponents don't know the best ways to interact with Elves (what to bolt; what to counter)

4. Regal Force is SO important when I don't naturally have a Glimpse in the first few turns

5. It feels like every time I cast Crop rotation, I win, but getting it countered seems dangerous

6. Sometimes it takes a LONG time to get to Emrakul and finish people off

7. This deck feels very strong, and if I get going, I just win

So my questions to you (since you have more knowledge and experience than I do):

A. Is mono-Green viable? Or do I need to splash either white (for mirror entity) or black (for sideboard buried alive) to be viable? This is important because I can borrow Cradles but I have no access to duals.

B. Is the Vengevine version just better? Why?

C. Are there any general tips or go-to plays that I should know as an Elves player?

D. Can anyone suggest a good board strategy and graveyard decks (and others)?

E. Is there anything else I should know before I decide to run Elves in a major tournament?

I plan on doing lots of testing over the next two months and hopefully providing results and feedback when I can. Any help is very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Jon (woodjt5 on MTGO)

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Originally Posted by woodjt5

6. Sometimes it takes a LONG time to get to Emrakul and finish people off

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I also run a mono green list. Get a singleton Fierce Empath. Your line of play will be: Get 18-19 mana, Pact or GSZ for Empath, get Emrakul, play Emrakul. Your combo turns are severely cut down in time. If you happen to draw into Fierce Empath, he's also a great tutor for Regal Force if you have no other tutors.

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So my questions to you (since you have more knowledge and experience than I do):

A. Is mono-Green viable? Or do I need to splash either white (for mirror entity) or black (for sideboard buried alive) to be viable? This is important because I can borrow Cradles but I have no access to duals.

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Not totally sure. Mirror Entity is a strong build but opens you up to wasteland and kin. I think mono-green is certainly viable, and while I'm a little skeptical of the Fauna Shaman engine, I can see it's merit. I'll likely be trying it out soon.

I posted my list earlier in the thread, take a look at it. In terms of mono-green "get Emrakul" lists I think it's the best there is. But Vengevines give you a plan you otherwise wouldn't have, they're hyper aggressive and swing hard. If they die it's fine, you play elves and you can recur them via Wirewood Symbiote.

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C. Are there any general tips or go-to plays that I should know as an Elves player?

D. Can anyone suggest a good board strategy and graveyard decks (and others)?

E. Is there anything else I should know before I decide to run Elves in a major tournament?

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I addressed vengevines in the previous question.

C: Just remember how your elves interact. Nettle sentinels untap, set up a convenient way for you to remember not only to untap them but to constantly be using them, you'll end up with more mana in the long run.

Know when you should keep your hand etc.

The great thing about Elves is the more you play, the deeper understanding you have of -just- how much mana you can actually produce, often with very little.

The general rule of thumb is if you have a choice between generating mana or drawing cards, always draw cards. You can have all 4 glimpses active if you have all 4 GSZ's in your deck, you can play them for 0, fail to find anything, and place them in the deck again.

D: Faerie Macabre

E: Just keep your cool, work on your nerves. Keep a level head and don't get tricked, read every card you don't know. If you know how to play your deck and keep a cool head, you'll go a lot farther than you normally would. It's not specific to elves.

I'm not really sure what to say about it otherwise, don't rush yourself, keep a pen and paper with you to do math on if you need it. A lot of decks cave to elves, a lot of decks don't though. Reanimator--you need Faerie Macabre's. Game one is likely a loss unless you can go off before they establish themselves. I would probably run both Faerie Macabre's and Tormod's Crypts, the matchup is that bad. This is why I think Vengevine plans might be better, you don't intend to win in one turn -anyways- so subbing out cards you don't particularly need won't kill you.

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Originally Posted by woodjt5

A. Is mono-Green viable? Or do I need to splash either white (for mirror entity) or black (for sideboard buried alive) to be viable? This is important because I can borrow Cradles but I have no access to duals.

B. Is the Vengevine version just better? Why?

C. Are there any general tips or go-to plays that I should know as an Elves player?

D. Can anyone suggest a good board strategy and graveyard decks (and others)?

E. Is there anything else I should know before I decide to run Elves in a major tournament?

(woodjt5 on MTGO)

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A. Mono green is viable. Splashing white or black gives you a chance against combo, but makes you susceptible to wasteland. I don't know if it is worth it.

B. Vengevine engine isn't exactly better. It is better in an aggro control/ control meta. It is worst against most combo decks.

C. Wirewood Symbiote + Elvish Visionary can win you games.

D. Either go overboard with graveyard hate or don't bother putting much graveyard hate in your sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I
Not totally sure. Mirror Entity is a strong build but opens you up to wasteland and kin. I think mono-green is certainly viable, and while I'm a little skeptical of the Fauna Shaman engine, I can see it's merit. I'll likely be trying it out soon.

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I was very skeptical of fauna shaman originally too, but once I actually played with it, I saw how straight up busted it is with untapped in heritage druid. Basically if you have a fauna shaman and a heritage druid, they basically have to choose what beats them, a million mana from druid or a steam of VVs from shaman.

Also, you shouldn't be too worried about being susceptible to wasteland if you splash. You shouldn't be fetching/laying your dual until you're using to cast a spell anyways, and by then it's done it's job. Also, I fistpump internally every time they waste my duals instead of my cradles.

Evening, my fellow green men;

I'm planning to build an elves deck mainly to lend to friends for our local legacy tournaments. The meta is a healthy mix of... everything from TES to reanimator to UW stoneblade, with the odd goblins, and pox thrown in (etc.)

I'm wondering which build of elves (combo vs Fauna Shaman) would be better. If someone can give me a quick rundown of which archetypes each build does better against, it'll be much appreciated. Right now I'm looking at having the combo-heavy build MB with the ability to side into the Fauna/Vine engine, plus hate for stuff like storm (mindbreak/thorn) and reanimator (Faerie).

I've only got 2 Gaea's Cradles (should be enough for local events), and will need to pick up some vines if I decide to go with the vine build. Otherwise, I've got most of the deck.

Thanks in advance!