I haven't seen that new worm yet, but if it puts two 5/5 Trample wurms into play for 5 CMC, Grave Titan is definitely obsolete for GBw versions.
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I haven't seen that new worm yet, but if it puts two 5/5 Trample wurms into play for 5 CMC, Grave Titan is definitely obsolete for GBw versions.
Its 6cc (2GGWW)
Armada Wurm 2GGWW
Creature-Wurm
Trample
When ~ enters the battlefield, put a 5/5 Wurm token with trample onto the battlefield.
5/5
I can agree with this. For non-Moat GBW versions (looking at Rock-styled and Pod-styled lists here), this wurm probably challenges Grave Titan. If you're on Rector and you have Moat, Yosei is still better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Still an upgrade IMO. It still brings 10 power to the table, except that it is trample now. Being GSZ-friendly is huge. GBw will officialy have the strongest GSZ package after RtR.
It's sweet, but not if you run moat. Yosei flies. Sun titan can be jumped by elspeth and provides recursion. Elspeth can't jump both worm and token in same turn which makes it not so great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
That said I plan on picking one up.
I'm actually thinking of trying a GBW Pod version, but what i'm having troubles with making a list.
It seems really hard to play all the good spells if you want to play loads of good Pod creatures :(
Where are you at currently, Viridia? That's what we're here for after all :p
I love how fast this thread moves!
Some thoughts (mostly for Ayotte):
I've been running G/B almost exclusively for quite awhile now. I've messed around with other versions and I think if you're not playing Scapewish, you should play G/B. It's the most consistent and with tight play is very solid vs just about anything.
I'm a huge fan of Primeval into double Treetop in a control heavy meta. I use it when my expected metagame is like that. However, in a meta with more aggro decks a la Maverick, Goblins, Fish, RUG, etc. I've been favoring something a little different. While still favorable, I don't like giving them percentage points against potential slower and more vulnerable to Wasteland draws. This is what I've been using to great results in a meta like that:
Nic Fit (61):
Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (13):
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
Spells (26):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Doom Blade
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Innocent Blood
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nature's Lore
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15):
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
3 Extirpate
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Thoughtseize
Neither is right or wrong, just my personal preference based on the expected metagame. My meta has more MUD, Affinity, etc. so I like Doom Blade over Go For the Throat. If you expect more Griselbrands, I would swap that. Obviously Return to Ravnica will bring some changes. Abrupt Decay will definitely make an appearance in some number and I will be trying out Vraska too. Golgari Charm will also probably make a sideboard appearance.
Any questions feel free to ask!
This is why I've been lurking this thread for long enough to be this interested. You guys rock.
I like the Hymns, but I haven't seen them in many lists. Are they normal?
Most decks discussed here are three colours, and they usually don't want to invest too deeply into black mana sources early on, making hymn a bad choice for extra discard (which those version usually don't run MB, if at all).
In straight G/B hymn's are viable and very strong, but I find direct discard like duress or thoughtseize to work better with therapy and grant better discard quality overal. The one extra mana cost also makes a big difference vs combo, where you want to get their keypiece ASAP. Really depends on personal preference I think.
Hymns are only really in GB versions. The ability to therapy then flashback with an explorer into a hymn on turn 2 is absolutely insane.
As has been said, they're only really viable in straight G/B. The nut draw Megadeus described is part of the pull. They're also better than pinpoint discard against fair decks most of the time. They're fine against combo and in addition to Therapies and Thoughtseizes out of the board are quite insane.
That being said, you don't want a ton of them. They're pretty dead in the late game. With two, I see them often enough to make them useful, but not draw too many. They're awesome at nabbing the last two cards out of a players hand in the mid game and obviously insane in a Therapy/Explorer opener.
In a meta with more combo, I like extra pinpoint more. In a more fair environment, I've been pleased with a pair of Hymns.
It shores up the Reanimator and Dredge matchups quite nicely. As a 1 drop, Shaman shuts down Dredge if they only have one Dredger. Against Reanimator, you can remove their target in response. Also, it stops stuff like Snapcaster, Lingersouls, shrinks Goyf/KoTR/Goose/Ooze, stops Loam, and also helps in the combo matchup in the case that they want to IGG/PIF loop. Its a 1 drop to compliment Veteran Explorer in stopping Lackey, which is extremely relevant with Goblins presence in DTB. Its also pretty good as instant speed Reach so it has an offense utility as well. Not that Nic Fit has problems removing Solitary Confinement, but the fact that it makes the opponent 'lose life' without actually targeting the Enchantress player means you can keep pressure on even through Elephant Grass and other Prison effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
As an excellent counter to Dredge and Reanimator, and marginal utility against IGG/PIF, I'd say Shaman helps to shore up some of Nic Fits bad matchups while providing mana utility. I'm guessing people will experiment with it as a 2'of or so. Any more than that and its more than likely going to compromise deck space.
What decks do you side in Memoricide against? I guess it's decks with few threat's like storm and other combo decks, but to me it seems quite too slow against these decks.
Deathrite Shaman really makes me wanna go back to straight up G/B nic fit! :tongue:
I thought I'd throw my GBw list up, see what you all thought. I've been modestly successful with it.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Thrun
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent BLood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Hmm, I play 3 Pulse and 3 creature removal (2 Dismember , 1 Go For The Throath ) in my BG list and I'm going to replace those 3 creature removal spells with Decay. It surprises me to see lists with only 2 or less pulses. Do your metagames not have Jace?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
My decklist is based on Calebs list.
Lands (22):
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (14):
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Viridian Shaman
Spells (24):
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember
1 go For The Throat
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
I'm still working on my sideboard but now it is:
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Krosan Grip
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Damnation
1x Gaddock Teeg
These sideboard tactics are what I've figured out so far. Thoughts are welcome.
RUG
In: 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Damnation, 1 Nihil Spellbomb
Out: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Eternal witness, 1 Deranged Hermit
Dredge
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Faerie Macabre, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach, 1 Dismember, 1 Liliana, 1 Viridian Shaman
Maverick
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1???
Merfolk
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 2 Veteran Explorer, 1???
Soulblade
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Krosan Grip
Out: 1 Wall of Blossoms, 1 Veteran Explorer
Goblins
In: 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Damnation
Out: 1 Liliana???, 1 Veteran Explorer
Belcher
In: 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void
Out: 1 Go For the Throat, 2 Dismember, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Deranged Hermit or 1 Thragtusk???
Burn
In: 2 Faerie Macabre, 2 Kitchen Finks, 1 Liliana,
Out: 2 Dismember, 3 Pernicious Deed
(Combo) Elves
In: 1 Curse of Death's Hold, 1 Liliana, 1 Damnation
Out: 3 Hymn To Tourach
- Combo ANT
In 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Surgical Extraction, 3 Chalice of the Void, 1 Nihil Spell Bomb
Out: 1 Go for the Throat, 2 Dismember, 2 Pernicious Deed, 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Veteran Explorer, 1 GSZ
- Random aggro decks (Mono red!)
In 2x Kitchen Finks
Out:
I think With Abrupt Decay will the change the sideboard but Ive an important tournament to play this sunday.
This is the Pod list i came up with so far, but it probably relies too much on the Reveillark/Karmic Guide/Persist guy win:
Mainboard (60)
22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
20 Creatures
2 Academy Rector
1 Bloodflow Connoisseur
2 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reveillark
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Viridian Emissary
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
18 Other spells
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Vindicate
Think about adding Carpet of Flowers to the SB. Carpet is insane against RUG and important against Stoneblade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
RUG: Side out the Cabal Therapies. They suck against RUG because the fluctuation in their hand is so fast that you have no idea what they hold the next turn. You also don't need them for Explorer because they have to attack you on the ground because you usually have enough removal for their Delvers. Bring in Finks.
Dredge: Bring in Curse of Death's Hold!!! It is the best card against them Side out the second Liliana, she is utterly useless against Dredge. Also add both Finks. Side out 2 Therapies or Thrun and a Therapy.
Merfolk: Side out 3 Therapies and keep the Explorers in the deck. Like against RUG they empty their hand quickly and attack on the ground anyway. Kill their evasion (Reejerey/leveled Coralhelm).
Soulblade: Here is where Carpet of Flowers would be very useful. You could side out 3 Explorers and bring in Carpet of Flowers as your board plan. Keeping Explorers is awkward because you need some more Mana but don't know if Explorers will help him even more.
Goblins: I'd say -2 Maelstrom Pulse, - 2 Liliana + 2 Finks, + 1 Damnation, +1 Curse of Death's Hold (!!!)
Belcher: Also Gaddock Teeg! Side out Grave Titan and Thragtusk.
Burn: + 3 Chalice of the Void!!! You don't need Faerie Macabre. Also side out Grave Titan.
Elves: Add all Chalices! I'd say side out Thrun, Grave Titan, Thragtusk, 2 Pulses and keep 2 Hymns.
ANT: Deed is strictly better than Maelstrom Pulse. They only have Empty the Warrens tokens as threats and Deed can be played preemptively (avoiding Discard) and also gets Moxen/LEDs.
It would be difficult for me to side out therapies... Though I see what you are saying about it vs RUG. And yes Carpet of Flowers is absolutely awesome against anything Blue.
Is chalice reallythAt good in our deck?
Siding Liliana out vs anything that floods the board seems fine. I usually keep her in vs Maverick though. That match up becomes super Grindy, and a liliana on an empty board is usually GG for them.