Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Edit: Infernal -> Wish -> ToA Post-IGG even creates more stormcount which would not possible with MB Tendrils
This is of course incorrect, because with Tendrils main you can Infernal for Infernal and then Tendrils. That gives the same storm count. But it would seem that Ill-Gotten Gains is only a good consistent kill if you have both Gains and Tendrils main deck. At least, that's what I found. I've played both, and Gains on side makes your wins with it rather circumstantial. I almost never use it now, because I only very rarely find enough mana to execute it.
But I side with you Lemnear that boarding in Tendrils adds little value, and that Empty the Warrens is a very legitmate strategy versus Burn. Also, turn 1-2 Ad Nauseam should be fine, as long as the opponent doesn't have two Mountains in play plus a Fireblast in hand. Turn 3-4 kill attempts obviously cannot use Ad Nauseam, since you will just die to Bolts or so. It all depends on how good your hand is. If you draw a slow hand, with no business spell, you are greatly dependant on what you find with the cantrips. Those games will be very loseable.
Still, this discussion has derailed from the question whether to use Silences or additional discard and some Chain of Vapors. Racing a hate permanent is a fine strategy if you draw awesome hands. But awesome TES hands always win against decks like Burn. The trick is to win when you draw mediocre hands. I think getting an auto-loss against a resolved Pillar or so is a bad idea. Some Chains should be included, just to be sure. Silence can be used to slow them down of course, but if you draw the Silence after the permanent hits the table, you're done with. If you then draw a Chain instead, you are saved.
But that's just my two cents. :wink:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Another benefit of sideboarding in Tendrils for Empty the Warren is that you can win through Pyrostatic Pillar without killing yourself or bouncing the Pillar. If you don't play Tendrils in the main, this is much more difficult. How you might ask? Simple. You just storm for a smaller amount, and then cast Tendrils. Your life total goes back up to where you want it to be. You can then chain a few more cards, cast IGG or PIF and kill them with Tendrils. The reason why this requires a main deck Tendrils is because you don't rely as heavily on your Burning Wishes which disappears after use. You can abuse your Infernal Tutors more. This is very important in shaping your hand when you are on a clock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
What's the problem with using life as a resource against Burn turn 1/2? We're not talking about AN beyond turn 2 and below 10 life.
Please let me know how Chain of Vapor significantly improves your game against Goblin Guide? You trade a card for 2 less damage. I'm not impressed.
A IGG loop with 2 LED's provides 6 mana. You can still Infernal for a 2nd Wish into Tendrils from the SB. What's your point?
Edit: Infernal -> Wish -> ToA Post-IGG even creates more stormcount which would not possible with MB Tendrils
Umm, you only play 2 Chain of Vapors. You can choose not to cast it.
I don't have a problem with Ad Nauseam turn 1 or turn 2. I just have a problem with that being your main plan, as having the Ad Nauseam in your hand past that is pretty dead. Chain of Vapors is obviously brought in for Pyrostatic Pillar/Sulfuric Vortex. And any other permanent based hate. It's definitely better than Silence as Silence won't do much except force them to unload their instant speed burns on you that turn.
LED LED provides 6 mana, so how will you get enough mana for infernal tutor, burning wish, IGG, burning wish, tendrils? You have no mana floating to cast the second Burning Wish. Tendrils main allows you to go off later in the game and win. It just seems like all of you are banking on the fact that Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens will win turns 1 and 2. What is your plan after turn 1 and 2? I'm guessing you guys don't have one. Tendrils main will make winning past turn 2 easy. You can still Ad Nauseam turn 1 and 2 and you can still BW into Empty the Warren first 2 turns if you choose to. By boarding in Tendrils, you are making it easier for you to win should you find yourself a bit behind.
FYI, it's faster, because my hand would require less cards. I only need Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, LED for 16 damage. You set up the double LED with the Infernal Tutor. Your hand requires LED, LED, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish. You also need more mana for Burning Wishings on the same turn. My point is, main deck Tendrils makes IGG win rate much higher. It's also the match up you want IGG for, where your life should hold more value than against other decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
This is of course incorrect, because with Tendrils main you can Infernal for Infernal and then Tendrils.
Kudos. People have been playing without main deck Tendrils for so long, they don't even remember that you can chain Infernal Tutors....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
If you draw a slow hand, with no business spell, you are greatly dependant on what you find with the cantrips. Those games will be very loseable.
Hence, main deck Tendrils of Agony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Still, this discussion has derailed from the question whether to use Silences or additional discard and some Chain of Vapors. Racing a hate permanent is a fine strategy if you draw awesome hands. But awesome TES hands always win against decks like Burn. The trick is to win when you draw mediocre hands. I think getting an auto-loss against a resolved Pillar or so is a bad idea. Some Chains should be included, just to be sure. Silence can be used to slow them down of course, but if you draw the Silence after the permanent hits the table, you're done with. If you then draw a Chain instead, you are saved.
But that's just my two cents. :wink:
Silence will just draw out their instant speed burn. They can still attack also, so you've not slowed them down at all. In addition, should their Pyrostatic Pillar come down, you are now in trouble if you draw Silence again. I'd definitely bring in the bounce over Silence. Discard could come in if you have something to take out, but unless they are holding multiples of cards, Cabal Therapy just doesn't seem worth it.
Trying to second guess for Mindbreak Trap just seems like a terrible plan. Any deck can play Mindbreak Trap. Do you just always leave in Silence? That seems silly and illogical. Bring in things that you can actually hit, and if they have it, they have it. Bring Silence back in next game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkness
I have to Agree with Lemnear on the topic of IGG. In my testing against burn, casting Burning Wish into IGG or Past in Flames is probably your best option. You generally have plenty of time against them because their lack of interaction. If you open up with a hand of rituals, sculpt for Past in Flames. If you have a hand with LEDs, sculpt your hand for an IGG combo. The matchup is a lot easier than one may think.
My opinion blinding going into game 2 of their sideboard is to bring in 2 CoV for 2 Silence. Having access to CoV and Silence allows you to fight both Mindbreak Trap and Pillar. If there is a game three, it's probably due to losing to their hate that you couldn't stop, which allows you to properly sideboard with more knowledge.
Err.. his plan isn't IGG. That's my plan. His plan is to ETW for anything greater than 10 goblins or Ad Nauseam turn 1 and 2. Both are early game plans and are not plans for the long game. Their interaction with you is a race. The difference is, their deck is much more linear and redundant than TES making it more consistent in knocking your life to 0 without the aid of an engine. Their problem is they can't get through speed bumps other decks put up. Our problem is, we don't put up speed bumps.
EDIT: Added bold because people keep ignoring my argument against Silence in the burn match up
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Err.. his plan isn't IGG. That's my plan. His plan is to ETW for anything greater than 10 goblins or Ad Nauseam turn 1 and 2. Both are early game plans and are not plans for the long game. Their interaction with you is a race. The difference is, their deck is much more linear and redundant than TES making it more consistent in knocking your life to 0 without the aid of an engine. Their problem is they can't get through speed bumps other decks put up. Our problem is, we don't put up speed bumps.
(Bolded the part I think is especially useful.)
Undisrupted burn will consistently deal around 20 by turn 4. Between probes and our lands, and given a good hand for burn, they can be in striking range by turn 3. Price of Progress deals more and more damage for 2 mana the more lands we have. That means the "long game" can only really be a few turns after turns 1-2.
This means we generally need to win before they kill us, or disrupt them to give us a bit more time. We do have some disruption options, but they aren't stellar. Silence can be a Time Walk. Discard that hits high-damage spells can significantly slow their clock(in terms of turns) since they don't have any ways of drawing extra cards. The worst-case scenario for both silence (opponent uses all their mana to cast instants in response) and discard (they have redundant burn spells, or you miss on therapy) is pretty horrid, though.
On the sideboard front, Chain/Decay can slow down any creatures they are trying to deal damage with, but neither are particularly impressive speed-bumps. Chain is especially meh against Goblin Guide/Keldon Marauders. Plus, sometimes they just have a burn-spell hand.
I think there's some logic in reasoning: "They probably win if the game gets to turn 4, so I should play/mulligan/sideboard to maximise my chances of winning by turn 3, at the expense of the possibility of winning later in the game."
Finally, I've always felt a bit awkward about Gitaxian Probe in the burn match-up. The life component of the spell feels way more expensive against burn than pretty much any other deck, because 2 life can be enough to shift their clock one turn earlier. Getting more information to work out how many turns you have can be extremely useful, though. And, phyrexian mana spells can actually be cast for mana instead of life. I think Probe probably stays in though, because (i) it can help fuel an early goblins win (ii) taking it out can disrupt mana ratios and (iii) there isn't really anything else appealing to bring in.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I don't understand jin's argument for maindeck Tendrils. You must have gotten confused when counting mana if you truly believe that 2x LED cannot pay for Wish + Tendrils post-IGG, try re-thinking the spell sequence and you will realize that. The corner case where you could IGG only with MD tendrils would be going for IGG with a combination of rituals and 1 LED, not sure how relevant it is.
I'm surprised that no one has suggested bringing in IGG (cutting the maindeck EtW) post-board though, this seems to have a much higher impact on your ability to set up an IGG loop since you would only need to find an IT+mana, instead of IT+Wish+mana.
This way you maximize your chances to go off with the preferred engine, your nauseams are still just as good should you have a turn1/2 nauseam kill available, and EtW can still be accessed via Wish.
Personally I would also consider bringing IGG in some match-ups where EtW is typically sided out (Maverick, etc.) because it really is one of the best engines in these cases and its only drawback is to be a dead card in hand.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Discard is key, guys. Duress is an all star against Burn. Cast it turn one. If they have a Pillar or Trap, take it.
If they have nothing of interest, take the spell that deals the most damage (Fireblast, typically, since it costs no mana to cast).
Once you know their hate card of choice, your Therapies become valuable.
Of course, Probes are not that strong here, since this is that one matchup in which life matters a LOT.
Still, you can always hardcast them. Something that I never see people do, but I do it pretty often, actually. :smile:
Chains replace Silences for as many as we have. Decays are bad because they cost too much life under Ad Nauseam. Arguments are already discussed: Silence can only slow them down a tad, while Chains can save you from a certain loss. I feel that has priority. That's what your protection spells are for, right?
Tendrils main deck can be used as a business spell (small Tendrils to gain life), but you need to rebuild quicker than he will, and chances for that are actually quite bad. Burn has some creatures, and one Goblin Guide that deals you 10+ damage is nothing to sneeze at. Main deck Empty just seems better, because it allows for an actual win with less than 10 storm. Both can be Wished for, so it all comes down on which one is better to have in your (opening) hand. I feel that is Empty the Warrens.
At least, these are my opinions and their arguments.
EDIT @Loop: One option could be to side in both Gains and Tendrils, leaving you to only need an Infernal for an easy win. Unless they side in grave hate of course, but we can invest game 2 in that, since it's just bad and will give us a better chance game 3. So -1 Empty, -1 Infernal (so all Wishes become possible Gains loops), +1 Gains, +1 Tendrils. I would advise against this, but we used to play like this back in 2008 and it's not that bad. It just makes Ad Nauseam worse, which can be dangerous against Burn, especially on the draw.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
EDIT @Loop: One option could be to side in both Gains and Tendrils, leaving you to only need an Infernal for an easy win. Unless they side in grave hate of course, but we can invest game 2 in that, since it's just bad and will give us a better chance game 3. So -1 Empty, -1 Infernal (so all Wishes become possible Gains loops), +1 Gains, +1 Tendrils. I would advise against this, but we used to play like this back in 2008 and it's not that bad. It just makes Ad Nauseam worse, which can be dangerous against Burn, especially on the draw.
So why not -1 infernal, -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 IGG, +1 ToA?
I guess we can all agree that Ad Nauseam is bad against burn turn >2 or on the draw turn >1. Empty on turn 1/2 is more likely than Ad Nauseam turn 1/2.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I never expected my question about siding vs Burn would start a two-page debate:tongue:
I took I the deck to my local shop again, and sure enough, first round:
Rd. 1 vs Burn
Game 1: Mull to 6 on the draw. His hand isn't the quickest, but even still it's very tight as I go for the IGG kill from 12 life with him being able to burn me down to 2 with PoP, Fireblast, and Lavamancer, and my City takes me down to 1. All that matters is that I took him to zero.
Sideboarding: After all of the back and forth debate in the thread I wasn't sure which direction to go. I'm very comfortable with the IGG loop into Tendrils from playing SI for the past year, so I decided to give it a try.
Out: 2x Silence, 1x Empty, 1x ??? (Mox, I think). In: 2x Chain, 1x Tendrils, 1x IGG.
Game 2: Mull to 6 on the draw again, but he mulls to 5 and looks pretty unhappy. He plays T1 Guide, T2 Guide, but is stuck on 1 mountain, tapped, with 3 cards in hand. I draw for my T2 and have the IGG kill in hand, provided he's not holding Mindbreak Trap. He's a friend of mine who I've faced many times and I think he's borderline tilting here--I'm fairly sure he had crap mulls and then decided that 2x Guide was better than going to 4 cards. I choose to gamble and go for it knowing that even if I lose the bet, I've got game three on the play with clear knowledge of his hate choice. He does not have the Trap and scoops as soon as I play Tutor and crack LED.
2-0 win (2x IGG loop into Tendrils)
Rd 2 vs UW Vial Grunt & Geist
Game 1: Mull to 6 on the draw
Mine, Mine, Fetch, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Petal. Keep.
He plays T1 Tundra into Vial. I draw Wish and start sculpting. Soon I'm staring down Geist and Grunt which beat me to 7. I make the attempt but Burning Wish eats Force and I'm dead cold.
Game 2: Mull to 6.
Stifle, Meddling Mage, Counters, and a quick clock are too much for me to overcome.
0-2
Rd 3 vs MUD
Game 1 on the draw:
Ritual, Rite, Petal, LED, Tutor, Mox, Empty. Keep. Hello Ad Nauseam from 20 with mana floating!
Opponent T1: Ancient Tomb, Chalice@1.
Doh.
He has little to follow it up with, and I draw Petal, Petal and go for 12 goblins which get there easily.
Game 2: mull to 6 on the draw.
He plays Great Furnace, go. I Probe, seeing Trinisphere coming down next turn but nothing to affect this turn, and proceed to play T1 Ad Nauseam from 17 life into Tendrils.
2-0 win
2-1 in rounds, 4-2 in games.
I mulled in 5/6 games, and have lost the die roll for 6 straight matches including last week. I'm happy to be able to win anyway!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Nice game against MUD. I never beat it for some reason. I play Ali AIntrazi at the last open. On the play he goes for T1 Chalice. It hurts but I can fight through that even with my no lander. Then he Goes Trinisphere... Whoops GG lol
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loop
I don't understand jin's argument for maindeck Tendrils. You must have gotten confused when counting mana if you truly believe that 2x LED cannot pay for Wish + Tendrils post-IGG, try re-thinking the spell sequence and you will realize that. The corner case where you could IGG only with MD tendrils would be going for IGG with a combination of rituals and 1 LED, not sure how relevant it is.
Burning Wish removes itself, so if you only have LED, LED, Burning Wish. You can't Tendrils unless you have a Burning Wish in your Graveyard or more mana floating with Infernal Tutor in your Graveyard. Both of these require more setting up than simply just boarding in Tendrils of Agony.
How is bringing in IGG different than bringing in Tendrils, except drawing IGG is way more dead than drawing the Tendrils...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom T
So why not -1 infernal, -1 Ad Nauseam, +1 IGG, +1 ToA?
I guess we can all agree that Ad Nauseam is bad against burn turn >2 or on the draw turn >1. Empty on turn 1/2 is more likely than Ad Nauseam turn 1/2.
This is bad. First, Ad Nauseam still just wins you the game if you have it turn 1 and turn 2. Also, boarding out Infernal Tutor and boarding in IGG is just counter productive. YOu need all 4 Infernal Tutors if you want to go with the IGG plan.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Also, boarding out Infernal Tutor and boarding in IGG is just counter productive. You need all 4 Infernal Tutors if you want to go with the IGG plan.
Not if you want a Burning Wish to also open up the possibility of going for a Gains loop into Tendrils.
It's rather slow, but so is having to find a Wish AND a Tutor/Wish to be able to go for Gains into Tendrils from side.
It's all a bit clumsy, but that's what you get if you demand a win through Gains.
I agree that boarding out Ad Nauseam in this deck is always wrong. Removing your typical turn 1-2 kill just seems bad.
All in all I think we should keep Empty and Ad Nauseam, and side -4 Silence, +2-3 Chain, +1-2 Therapy/Duress (depending on what you have).
The strategy should be a turn 1-2 big Empty the Warrens or a safe Ad Nauseam. If that appears to be impossible, we should sculpt into either a Gains or a Past in Flames win. When we go off, we should always look for the alternative Diminishing Returns. If you can do a Returns with UBR+ floating, that can often be much better than an Ad Nauseam or small Empty on turn 2. In general, a Returns with UBR+ floating is enough for the win. I think failing percentages here are below 15%.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Not if you want a Burning Wish to also open up the possibility of going for a Gains loop into Tendrils.
It's rather slow, but so is having to find a Wish AND a Tutor/Wish to be able to go for Gains into Tendrils from side.
It's all a bit clumsy, but that's what you get if you demand a win through Gains.
I don't understand. I would board in Tendrils of Agony, so I wouldn't need Burning Wish into Tendrils. I don't think boarding in IGG will have the same effect as boarding in Tendrils, as I have already advocated.
Should someone choose to board in IGG, I would suggest taking out Ponder, Chrome Mox, or Discard before boarding out any Tutor(/Wish).
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
It's all about the situation where you have only Burning Wish in hand.
You Wish for Gains. Wish exiles itself. No way left to find Tendrils afterwards.
The board strategy you suggest makes having two Wishes in hand also bad.
First Wish gets Gains, second Wish cannot get Tendrils because you boarded it in.
So then if you want to win through Gains, you MUST have an Infernal Tutor.
The situation I described (but vote against) opens up these plays:
1. Wish for Tutor into Gains for mana, mana, Tutor and then play those into Tendrils.
2. (the usual) Tutor into Gains for mana, mana, Tutor and then play those for Tendrils.
With the disadvantage of having the possible bad draw of Gains, and higher average CMC.
So if Gains is what you want, that is the best setup. But it sucks for all the other ways of going off.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
It's all about the situation where you have only Burning Wish in hand.
You Wish for Gains. Wish exiles itself. No way left to find Tendrils afterwards.
The board strategy you suggest makes having two Wishes in hand also bad.
First Wish gets Gains, second Wish cannot get Tendrils because you boarded it in.
So then if you want to win through Gains, you MUST have an Infernal Tutor.
The situation I described (but vote against) opens up these plays:
1. Wish for Tutor into Gains for mana, mana, Tutor and then play those into Tendrils.
2. (the usual) Tutor into Gains for mana, mana, Tutor and then play those for Tendrils.
With the disadvantage of having the possible bad draw of Gains, and higher average CMC.
So if Gains is what you want, that is the best setup. But it sucks for all the other ways of going off.
Yes, but what is more likely, having 2 Burning Wish or having a Burning Wish and an Infernal Tutor? If you didn't know, it was a rhetorical question. Either way, if you have Burning Wish, you have options to other storm engines that will find you the Tendrils of Agony. If not, you still have Grapeshot and ETW in your SB. Both strategies have their options, but the question is, which one is more probable to win off of?
In your situations,
1. Sure, you can Wish for Tutor and set up for IGG that way, but that takes longer than having the 3 cards (IT, BW, LED), because you need more cards and more mana for your combo (MANA, MANA, Burning Wish, Burning Wish), plus you waste a Burning Wish, so you'll need to dig hard or tutor for the remainder. With this much mana, you might as well go for Past in Flames...
2. It'll be harder to find the Tutor because you would have sideboarded one out. You could BW for it, but then you waste a Wish doing so limiting your future options; although this is arguably faster than my suggestion.
Do you still play IGG in your SB? It sounds like you hate it. (Honest question)
PS: Sideboarding in Tendrils also makes a quicker Past in Flames an option as a win condition. SB IGG does not have the same effect. I'm just saying...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
What I am explaining only takes more mana, or a turn more (Wish for Infernal).
It doesn't take more cards, unless you use one card to get those extra two mana.
What I am suggesting is the only way to get a consistent Gains kill.
What you are suggesting means there's only a Gains kill if you have Infernal.
The guy who started this told us he wanted Gains kills, so I posted the best way to always have those.
I personally do still play Gains, but I haven't used it in a while.
But that's mainly because I haven't drawn a proper hand of TES in three months together.
Right now I play a different list (sort of TNT'ish). It's pretty nice, but I haven't tested much yet.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Burning Wish removes itself, so if you only have LED, LED, Burning Wish. You can't Tendrils unless you have a Burning Wish in your Graveyard or more mana floating with Infernal Tutor in your Graveyard. Both of these require more setting up than simply just boarding in Tendrils of Agony.
How is bringing in IGG different than bringing in Tendrils, except drawing IGG is way more dead than drawing the Tendrils...
This is bad. First, Ad Nauseam still just wins you the game if you have it turn 1 and turn 2. Also, boarding out Infernal Tutor and boarding in IGG is just counter productive. YOu need all 4 Infernal Tutors if you want to go with the IGG plan.
What I was saying is that by bringing IGG in, it allows you to go for the loop with only IT as business, not IT+wish, do you seriously not understand that?
As for 2x LED being able to pay for wish like everyone has been telling you for 1 page, the sequence goes IT (or wish with IT in grave if you did not bring igg in), led, led, crack both for BBBBBB, grab IGG and play it floating BB, get back IT led led, led, led, IT cracking both for BBBRRR, wish, tendrils.
With this sequence, bringing Tendrils in only results in you having 2 manas floating when you win the game, as everyone was saying 2x LED will generate extra mana to pay for the wish.
Hopefully now you understand that bringing IGG in is different than bringing Tendrils in, because it actually speeds you up by requiring you only find IT as business instead of having to find 2 business spells. The real drawback that was mentionned is that you cant IGG through Wish anymore, so that means hands with double business get worse.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loop
What I was saying is that by bringing IGG in, it allows you to go for the loop with only IT as business, not IT+wish
He could still do that: Infernal for Wish, Wish for Gains, get back mana and an Infernal into Tendrils.
It requires a lot of mana, but it works.
Fun part is: it takes the same amount of mana as what I suggested to get consistent Gains kills, but he said that was bad.
(Board out one Infernal, board in Gains and Tendrils. Works with only one Infernal in hand, but also with only one Wish, though that's as expensive as the thing Jin suggested with one Infernal in hand.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loop
As for 2x LED being able to pay for wish like everyone has been telling you for 1 page, the sequence goes IT (or wish with IT in grave if you did not bring igg in), led, led, crack both for BBBBBB, grab IGG and play it floating BB, get back IT led led, led, led, IT cracking both for BBBRRR, wish, tendrils.
With this sequence, bringing Tendrils in only results in you having 2 manas floating when you win the game, as everyone was saying 2x LED will generate extra mana to pay for the wish.
This is also incorrect: you get BBB BBB from the LEDs the second time, and then Infernal for Infernal and only then go for Tendrils. Same amount of storm, no mana left.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
He could still do that: Infernal for Wish, Wish for Gains, get back mana and an Infernal into Tendrils.
It requires a lot of mana, but it works.
Fun part is: it takes the same amount of mana as what I suggested to get consistent Gains kills, but he said that was bad.
(Board out one Infernal, board in Gains and Tendrils. Works with only one Infernal in hand, but also with only one Wish, though that's as expensive as the thing Jin suggested with one Infernal in hand.)
Yes, I realize you can go IT->Wish->IGG, but that's effectively quite a bit slower. Hence why I said that bringing IGG in could speed you up.
I also think that what you suggested (Wish->IT) is more efficient since it does not have to be paid all in one sequence, though I personally would not bring out an IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
This is also incorrect: you get BBB BBB from the LEDs the second time, and then Infernal for Infernal and only then go for Tendrils. Same amount of storm, no mana left.
This is exactly why discussions in this thread tend to be pedant and annoying. God you're entirely missing the point by trying to point out that something is "incorrect". Of course you can go IT->IT, what's your point? My point was that 2x LED would produce enough mana to be able to Tendrils through Wish anyway, so it was not a bottleneck or an extra constraint, and thus bringing Tendrils in would not be a real speedup (unlike IGG because IT->Wish->IGG while costing the same amount IS a bottleneck). Your comment added basically nothing to this idea.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
In that case I was missing the point.
Does Bryant ever side in Tendrils by the way?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loop
As for 2x LED being able to pay for wish like everyone has been telling you for 1 page ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
loop
This is exactly why discussions in this thread tend to be pedant and annoying. God you're entirely missing the point ...
I never once said that double LED cannot pay for Burning Wish. I'm merely stating that the chance of you drawing LED and LED is less likely compared with the chance of you drawing Tutor/Wish, Tutor/Wish, LED. In the second case, you can use Tutor to set up your double LED, which I believe is faster than hoping to luck out on double LED in your opening hand. Because you play 8 Tutors, there is a much higher chance of getting double tutor than it is to get double LED. Setting up is thus faster because you can use the redundancy to create a more desired card sequence.
Having Tendrils in the main might not be faster than having IGG in the main, but it's faster because it opens up all of your other storm engines to a faster win condition. With the idea that bringing in IGG is faster only applies if you are planning to only win with IGG, which is rarely the case with TES. The situation often dictates your storm engine. By boarding in Tendrils, any of your options are faster than if you didn't have Tendrils in the main. With the IGG engine, your speed does not take a hit when you board in Tendrils. When you board in IGG, your other storm engines take a hit.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I never once said that double LED cannot pay for Burning Wish. I'm merely stating that the chance of you drawing LED and LED is less likely compared with the chance of you drawing Tutor/Wish, Tutor/Wish, LED. In the second case, you can use Tutor to set up your double LED, which I believe is faster than hoping to luck out on double LED in your opening hand. Because you play 8 Tutors, there is a much higher chance of getting double tutor than it is to get double LED. Setting up is thus faster because you can use the redundancy to create a more desired card sequence.
Well, that is a good argument for keeping IGG in (as I was saying, bringing it in does hurt double business hands), and seems like a reasonable analysis.
I can agree with that and this is a good rebuttal to my proposition of bringing IGG in.
However I still don't see how bringing Tendrils in speeds you up significantly, that was my issue with your original argument.
Since this whole discussion originated from an argument over the Burn match up and the usefulness of maindeck EtW in it, it then seems reasonable to suggest simply cutting EtW post-board without bringing any other high-CC, thus making AdN better in a match-up where your life-total can be sensitive?
