[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

It wasn't nearly as ropey as it has been in the past. Cloud of faeries is actually amazing, but involves having to play even tighter and more calculated than before. Also my brain still has issues with cloud of faerie untap math. Multiple times I had to just plain write it out on my notes.

I commented to my final round opponent that this was the first time I've done decently with no cloud of faeries in the deck. Don't hold out too much hope though, my builds I've been testing since then include both cloud of faeries and candelabras. This is the first candelabra-less build I would suggest for a "budget" version.

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I noted a few times that my brain would hurt with Cloud of Faeries untap math, but also that I couldn't really accelerate with the Faeries like I wanted to because I'd have to untap at least one blue source in order to bounce, then re-cast the Faeries; I was running your list with Chain of Vapor: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post837957. I did cycle the Faeries a time or two; otherwise I'd wonder about the merits of Peregrine Drake. I also really enjoy the fact that the Faeries functions as a body, though: getting in front of stuff the way Khalni Garden did continues to be strong.

I note that most of the potentially strong decks you're mentioning don't run Wasteland, with the exceptions of UWR Delver and DnT. Maybe the loss of Pithing Needle won't be as scary?

I'm curious as to the role Wipe Away is playing for you. I suspect it's more easily managed than its UU color commitment would indicate, but I already love the fact that one of your lists had Glen Elendra Archmage in it and am wondering about this latest direction.

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Originally Posted by everial

Thanks for the update -- for now I'll just keep hoping a viable Candelbra-less build emerges.

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I guess saving money is the faster way then waiting for something better than candles.

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Originally Posted by slayjay

But some questions:


Why Kozilek over Ulamog? In my eyes there is enough draw and destroying a permanent (Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Karakas) was always fine to me.

Why no Forests / 3 Islands? I would like a split of 2 / 2 more. I am playing in a Blood Moon heavy meta, so I want to be able to hardcast Titan.

Anybody missing Ptihing Needle? No more need for them? I am not sure I want to go out without them, tooo much Wastelands...


Thanks for answers.

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I alternate between Kozilek and ulamog. If I'm running more than 4 bounce spells i'll run with ulamog, since my goal is now slowing them down, and I need to start dealing with the mass of advantage they aren't losing. Once I go down to 4 then that means I'm trying to bowl them over with advantage, so kozilek wins out.

There are 17 blue cards on the main, 14 more in the side (15 if you include spellskite as "blue"). There are only 7 green cards, 4 of which I can put in play with blue spells. This version of the deck is essentially mono-blue.

I hate needle. Hate that most of the major success I've had with the deck was when running it. Hate its ability to be outplayed by my opponent. That being said, with U/R, infect/burn everywhere, wastes are at an all time low.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

I noted a few times that my brain would hurt with Cloud of Faeries untap math, but also that I couldn't really accelerate with the Faeries like I wanted to because I'd have to untap at least one blue source in order to bounce, then re-cast the Faeries; I was running your list with Chain of Vapor: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post837957. I did cycle the Faeries a time or two; otherwise I'd wonder about the merits of Peregrine Drake. I also really enjoy the fact that the Faeries functions as a body, though: getting in front of stuff the way Khalni Garden did continues to be strong.

I note that most of the potentially strong decks you're mentioning don't run Wasteland, with the exceptions of UWR Delver and DnT. Maybe the loss of Pithing Needle won't be as scary?

I'm curious as to the role Wipe Away is playing for you. I suspect it's more easily managed than its UU color commitment would indicate, but I already love the fact that one of your lists had Glen Elendra Archmage in it and am wondering about this latest direction.

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Hopefully answered your pithing needle question in my previous response.

Regarding wipe away, I was thinking of a card that I could bring in against Infect, Storm, and Delver decks, including U/R. My friend Jeff Carpenter, whom I frequently theorycraft with, wisely suggested boomerang, and I couldn't believe I didn't think of wipe away sooner. Wipe away lets you hit a pumped infecter even if an inkmoth nexus, bounce a pumped monastery swiftspear or devolve an insectile aberration/delver into a squirtle, and the important splash is that it allows you to hit Storm's lands in response to a LED'd infernal tutor. There are other side benefits as well. I brought it in against miracles and it was hilariously important against counterbalance. I would use it if burn had multiple forms of lifegain/land-type changing/damage preventing permanent hate. I used it against shardless bug to re-play a glimmerpost to survive two more turns.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I guess saving money is the faster way then waiting for something better than candles.

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Don't so easily jump on the haterade express. Cloud of Faeries x4 is by far my favorite budget build, and it is very very close to max viability.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

<snip>

Don't so easily jump on the haterade express. Cloud of Faeries x4 is by far my favorite budget build, and it is very very close to max viability.

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Have pointers to this build? The last couple of lists with Treasure Cruise only had 2-3x Cloud of Faeries.

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Originally Posted by everial

Have pointers to this build? The last couple of lists with Treasure Cruise only had 2-3x Cloud of Faeries.

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I've been testing this to see if it actually is the superior build. I suspect not, simply because of the horrible situations you can get yourself into and still win 100% because of candelabra. But here's the list:

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [LRW] Island (1)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [UL] Cloud of Faeries

// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Treasure Cruise
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away

From a pointers perspective, I would be very hesitant picking up this build. It has EVEN MORE options and lines of play than the standard build of the already most-difficult-competitive-deck in any format. When to cycle a faerie versus save it because there are 13 cards that let you hardcast that titan in your hand you could draw, but cycling it builds treasure cruise and possibly digs you that one card deeper you need. Or feeling out if they're on clique/jace/liliana and just running it out there for seemingly no real value. The card involves a ton of foresight and perception to play effectively.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I alternate between Kozilek and ulamog. If I'm running more than 4 bounce spells i'll run with ulamog, since my goal is now slowing them down, and I need to start dealing with the mass of advantage they aren't losing. Once I go down to 4 then that means I'm trying to bowl them over with advantage, so kozilek wins out.

There are 17 blue cards on the main, 14 more in the side (15 if you include spellskite as "blue"). There are only 7 green cards, 4 of which I can put in play with blue spells. This version of the deck is essentially mono-blue.

I hate needle. Hate that most of the major success I've had with the deck was when running it. Hate its ability to be outplayed by my opponent. That being said, with U/R, infect/burn everywhere, wastes are at an all time low.

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Ok agree.

Another question: With 4 TC and Kozilek you draw a LOT of cards. In my games, I was sticked with a lot of lands in my hand (especially the new versions that run 25-26 lands) and only able to play one land a round. So i had a lot of "dead" (in this moment) cards in hand. Wouldn´t it be great again to play some acceleration like Oracle of Mul Daya, Exploration or Azusa to profit of these lands? Also helps against soft locks like Life from the Loam / Wasteland (I have to play a lot against this in my meta).

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Originally Posted by slayjay

Ok agree.

Another question: With 4 TC and Kozilek you draw a LOT of cards. In my games, I was sticked with a lot of lands in my hand (especially the new versions that run 25-26 lands) and only able to play one land a round. So i had a lot of "dead" (in this moment) cards in hand. Wouldn´t it be great again to play some acceleration like Oracle of Mul Daya, Exploration or Azusa to profit of these lands? Also helps against soft locks like Life from the Loam / Wasteland (I have to play a lot against this in my meta).

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Nice idea! Give it a try, perhaps 1 Map and 1 Crop could be cut for 2 Oracles?

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Originally Posted by slayjay

Ok agree.

Another question: With 4 TC and Kozilek you draw a LOT of cards. In my games, I was sticked with a lot of lands in my hand (especially the new versions that run 25-26 lands) and only able to play one land a round. So i had a lot of "dead" (in this moment) cards in hand. Wouldn´t it be great again to play some acceleration like Oracle of Mul Daya, Exploration or Azusa to profit of these lands? Also helps against soft locks like Life from the Loam / Wasteland (I have to play a lot against this in my meta).

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The way I build the deck is to still manage with "weak" hands. Currently I'm at 28 lands main with Bojuka Bog in there (still unsure on this guy). I very often keep 7 land hands and don't consider my hand dead at all. The number one indicator that you are winning with this deck is if you make a land drop every turn.

There is currently a 3-flex slot in the TC version, and oracle could belong in there. I personally like cloud of faeries for its massive utility and variation. I wouldn't go azusa or exploration, as late they are completely dead. Oracle begets top though. I would be curious to see a test with top-less oracle. Could be intriguing.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

The way I build the deck is to still manage with "weak" hands. Currently I'm at 28 lands main with Bojuka Bog in there (still unsure on this guy). I very often keep 7 land hands and don't consider my hand dead at all. The number one indicator that you are winning with this deck is if you make a land drop every turn.

There is currently a 3-flex slot in the TC version, and oracle could belong in there. I personally like cloud of faeries for its massive utility and variation. I wouldn't go azusa or exploration, as late they are completely dead. Oracle begets top though. I would be curious to see a test with top-less oracle. Could be intriguing.

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Man I tested your list -2 TOP / + 2 Oracle and it worked VERY well for me. Give it a try ;-)

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Originally Posted by slayjay

Man I tested your list -2 TOP / + 2 Oracle and it worked VERY well for me. Give it a try ;-)

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I had somehow missed the interaction of 0 candelabra, 0 top, 3 cloud, 2 oracle. I did some early testing and have been enjoying it. Oracle supplements the only major weakness of cloud of faeries, that being poor acceleration late game, which cruise + oracle perform nicely.

I'm only goldfishing right now, but I'm wondering if Amulet of Vigor deserves some (re?)consideration given our new direction. It sort of can accelerate a la Cloud of Faeries, can be wickedly stupid in multiples, and is considerably less of a dead draw late than, say, Exploration, because of how it can interact with Primeval Titan. It doesn't block anything, but it's another avenue of non-linear mana ramp. Anyway, just a thought as I sit here goldfishing some hands.

Amulet of vigor fits nicely with the Trinket Mage toolbox people have been developing. Especially if people are talking about going down to 1-2 Tops in favor of cruising, having Trinket Mage to fetch it up seems great.

Cards in the toolbox:

Sensei's Divining Top
Expedition Map
Candelabra of Tawnos
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Amulet of Vigor


1-2 Trinket Mages seems like a natural choice.

I've been testing this online against a gauntlet with a couple of buddies of mine and have been relatively happy with the results:

//Creatures

4 Cloud of Faeries

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

2 Oracle of Mul Daya

4 Primeval Titan

//Spells

4 Brainstorm

3 Crop Rotation

3 Expedition Map

3 Force of Will

3 Repeal

2 Show and Tell

4 Treasure Cruise

//Lands

4 Cloudpost

1 Eye of Ugin

4 Flooded Strand

1 Glacial Chasm

4 Glimmerpost

2 Island

1 Karakas

3 Polluted Delta

4 Tropical Island

2 Vesuva

//Sideboard:

3 Flusterstorm

1 Force of Will

1 Glen Elendra Archmage

4 Hydroblast

1 Spellskite

3 Trickbind

2 Wipe Away

A buddy suggested Trickbind in the sideboard for Wastelands and Storm. Much better than Stifle since you can't really counter it and our deck isn't looking to get into counterwars and potentially interesting against Sneak Attacks. I'm not really sure if the mainboard Forces are anywhere near right, but they have felt pretty darn good when staring down a combo matchup. We really only need to care about one or two spells pre-board and Treasure Cruise is the real deal when it comes to digging for answers.

I'm not yet convinced that cutting Candelabras is correct, but I do like the fact that my blue count is high enough to justify MB Force. I haven't felt I needed it yet, but that doesn't mean the deck wouldn't be faster without it.

Hey guys!

Im going to play in a big tournament on Sunday. And i would like to play 12 post, its a while since i played it, but i think its the rigth time to play it again.
The problem is that i dont know how to build it atm. im expecting to meet UR delver/burn, Combo ( Storm ), Death and taxes and Miracles.
Miracles have never been a issue, but i remmber that Combo and Burn have given me some trouble in the past.

I´ve been reading all the newest posts on the forums aswell, and im not quite sold on playing 4 Cruise. mainly because i´ve fond top to be so good and cruise just makes our stading hands even worse.

But im open mind and ready for anything. Help with sideboard would also be nice. ill try and make my own list and post it later.


Oxide

Just tested RockLee's latest build and got rolled by S&T, a matchup I never lost in my life with the Pithing needle version. It seems like you're just DEAD to Sneak attack.
Granted I mulled to 5 g3 and I never resolved a single copy of TC because it ate FoWs every time. I felt much weaker vs JTMS also w/ his list w/o SDT and no Needles.
Will keep testing.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Just tested RockLee's latest build and got rolled by S&T, a matchup I never lost in my life with the Pithing needle version. It seems like you're just DEAD to Sneak attack.
Granted I mulled to 5 g3 and I never resolved a single copy of TC because it ate FoWs every time. I felt much weaker vs JTMS also w/ his list w/o SDT and no Needles.
Will keep testing.

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I felt like I had the opposite happen. I always felt like I never had enough to reliably beat Sneak and Show with the old builds (and yes, I'm aware most people feel the opposite); that I could hold out for a while but ultimately I'd crumble, other than stealing the occasional game. This latest build felt great. I let him resolve a Blood Moon, got down a Glen Elendra Archmage to swing in for some beats and just sat behind a wall of countermagic and bounce. I ended up casting Kozilek on 10 lands, resolved 3 Treasure Cruise, and won with an Emrakul cast on 15 lands. Just didn't care at all about the Blood Moon and just sat behind my goodies.

Just tested vs BUG delver and got destroyed in 3 w/ RockLee's build. Still never resolved a single TC. Missed SDT and missed Cavern of souls a lot.

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Originally Posted by sauce

Just tested vs BUG delver and got destroyed in 3 w/ RockLee's build. Still never resolved a single TC. Missed SDT and missed Cavern of souls a lot.

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could you explain the games more? decision trees?

Stating "Tried your build, I got crushed" doesn't give any information, even if anecdotal. I have only lose one game to Bug-anything since testing TC. Has been complete blowouts.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

could you explain the games more? decision trees?

Stating "Tried your build, I got crushed" doesn't give any information, even if anecdotal. I have only lose one game to Bug-anything since testing TC. Has been complete blowouts.

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Yeah, sorry. So, basically, the games went about like this. I got thoughtseized 2x then Goyf beatdowns. Tried to TC got FoW'd. Tried to Titan got FoW'd.
G2, I baited him with TC, it got FoW'd and then I Crop rotationed into Eye and Emrakul'd him right on out.
G3 he had double hymn, Pierce for TC which I could not play around and then landed 2x Goyf into Sylvan -> Liliana.
I really missed SDT in this matchup. Also really wanted Cavern which is an easy fix to the decklist.

I think the first problem I have had with the list is Cloud of Faeries. It has utility but does not do a whole lot early. I will probably try cutting all 4 in favor of SDT's in order to keep both SDT and TC in the deck.