Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I hope you can record your games so that those who are not able to join in at the time can still see the games and commend on here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I hope you can record your games so that those who are not able to join in at the time can still see the games and commend on here!
I went to that link hoping to watch some 'past broadcasts', figuring I had missed when he'd stream it, but alas... there was none saved. I'm not familiar with how twitch is setup from a streamer's side, but if you can look into making sure your previous streams get saved there.. it'd be awesome. That's how I use twitch more often then not, viewing the video later on rather then streaming, as I'm on satellite internet and it doesn't always keep up with the stream perfectly.
I think that I want to play imperial painter at the upcoming invitational, but I don't get to play legacy much and I need to cram as much research in as possible. I like that it has some amazing 'free' wins against a lot of the field right now, while still having some interaction with opponents, unlike many other combo decks.
There used to be past broadcasts, but the twitch terms of service was changed due to copyright issues with music. Which might have caused the loss of past broadcastsQuote:
Originally Posted by enzee
So behind in tournament reports I wanted to write... But anyway. Just top 8'd an I.Q. event with Painter yesterday (putting me at 14 SCG points...salt)
Here's the crazy diverse and weird top 8. Check out my friend Zach's list.
RD 1 - Burn 2-0
G1 - He got my down to 6 and then I was able to kill him. He didn't really know the format so he didn't try to kill the painter on his turn, I had the blast backup and a welder so it would have been fine but still worth noting.
G2 - We both mulliganed once. He kept a one-lander. I do the same with the one land being City of traitors. Turn one: I draw, pass. Turn two: Draw, lotus petal pass. Turn 3: top deck and play mountain pass, turn 4 city, sphere of law, win the game off that. Blanking eidolon and pyrostatic pillar is amazing. He was hoping I'd play more nonbasics so he could at least price but I was careful to kill city with a basic mountain.
(1-0)
RD 2 - UWR Delver (2-0)
G1 I win the roll, and start off with top. I pyroblast his early delver, and lock him out with blood moon and e bridge.
G2 Goes much the same way though a small mistake almost left me dead to double bolt. I killed him with beatdown this game since he had two leyline of sanctity's and I was running out of blasts.
(2-0)
RD 3 - Burn...again
G1 - My opponent taps out when he puts me to 6, probably feeling safe after killing my welder but daretti is insane. I got to play a top and turn it into a painter and kill him.
G2 - I got super lucky. I faded around 5 or 6 draws. He hardcast fireblast against me... I was able to beat him down with multiple painters, recruiter, revoker, and welder.
(3-0)
RD 4 - Lands
G1 - At this point we know what the other is on. He mulligans to 4, I think his 7 were unplayable and 6 and 5 couldn't beat the blood moon I didn't have...Instead I just went turn 1 grindstone, turn 2 painter, turn 3 kill.
G2 - He starts withut I a turn one basic swamp and mox diamond... :( I blow up a few mox diamonds with painter/blast. I drop a couple blood moons that get destroyed. I drop an E Bridge (which sticks). I drop another blood moon and he makes marit lage in response. We sit there staring at each other. I had put him to 3 but his 7 removal spells by about turn 11 made it difficult to kill him. Finally I topdecked grindstone before he found an answer to bridge.
(4-0)
Rd 5 - Punishing Maverick
I concede. I got paired down against a friend, its a favorable match and if I win I'll be top seed in top 8 but if I concede I get him into the top 8 and stay in myself.
(4-1)
Rd 6 - Lands
I.D. into top 8
4-1-1
Quarterfinals-UR delver
G1 - Against my friend on UR delver. Sucks that I'm against a friend but I had 3 friends and a dude I get along with but don't know well in the top 8 (surfkatt in the nic fit forum). Anyway,, I get game one when he can't find a way to kill painter's servant after 4 probes, a ponder or two and a brainstorm.
G2p f - I died...quick.
G3 - We both mull to 5. eww. I keep a one land with lotus petal and top. I play turn 1 top, he Forces, I pyroblast back. He goes delver go, and top finds me very little while his delver flips 2 turns later and he just crushes me. He told me after he kept a no land hand and topdecked that island...real kicker. he pitched a probe to that force...oh well....just means one more friend at the invitational and I have to go play modern on sunday.
I placed 6th at an SCG IQ this weekend as well, playing this list:
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
4 Lotus Petal
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Goblin Welder
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sudden Shock
4 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Processor
SB: 1 Sudden Shock
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Round 1 vs. Miracles - Draw
Paired up against my close friend, and we've played this matchup a thousand times. He's probably one of the best Miracles player on earth when it comes to playing against Painter, through sheer repetition.
G1: Quick combo with blast back up puts it away.
G2: This one goes really long. 2 attempts to combo stopped by Swords or Terminus, followed by E. Bridge and Blood Moon lock. Land a Phyrexian Processor for 3 life, and beat him down to 5 or 6, when he finds Wear/Tear for the Processor, and a redundant copy of Blood Moon. He gets 2x Top and CB in play, while I have 2 Grindstones. Switch into natural Grindstone mode, but he is floating a 2 drop on top of his library. At one point, have 2 Painters in Hand, and trying desperately to grind him out of his 2 Drop, while also trying unsuccessfully to chain Recruiters to beat down the remaining 5 or 6 life. With probably 8 cards left in his deck, though, he ultimates Jace. I misplayed by not keeping a card or two in hand to win with natural Grindstone here.
G3: His turn 1 is the end of time in the round. Fast combo on turn 3 gets shut down by Swords, resolve Phyrexian Processor on Turn 5 for 18 life, but we draw.
Round 2 vs. Lands
Super nice guy, also in the draw bracket and was in the match sitting next to me Round 1.
G1: Mulls to 4, knowing I'm on Painter, but I'm on the play and T1 Blood Moon, so we move to game 2.
G2: This build definitely is weaker to Wasteland, and recurring Wasteland + Rishadan Port, in addition to a Revoker on a Lotus Petal I have in play puts it away. At one point I resolve Magus of the Moon, but it gets hit by Punishing Fire.
G3: T1 Blood Moon, T2 Painter with blast back up (I think blast a Mox Diamond here), T3 Grindstone, T4 Combo.
1-0-1
Round 3 vs. MUD/Daretti/Mindslaver
G1: Get steamrolled, Chalice on 1.
G2 + G3: Blood Moon resolves at key moments, Welder does tons of work shutting down Myr Battlesphere aggro, and Duergar Hedge-Mage destroys a timely Chalice on 1 so I can resolve Grindstone for the win. It is very fortunate that Blightsteel Colossus doesn't reshuffle the whole graveyard, or this matchup would be a lot scarier. Revoker was also fantastic here.
2-0-1
Round 4 vs. UWR Stoneblade
G1: Can't remember exactly. Was a quick one though, and I believe Blood Moon was involved.
G2: He keeps 6, plays Island, says go. T1: is Mountain, Lotus Petal, SDT. T2: He brainstorms, doesn't play a second land drop and must be brainstorm locked, and passes. I spin on upkeep, draw Painter, play Ancient Tomb, resolve Painter and run out a Grindstone, and he scoops.
Round 5 Draw into Top 8 at 4th seed, as there were a number of other draws in the top tables.
Round 6 vs. BUG Delver, Round 1 of Top 8.
G1: I control everything on the board, and eventually resolve Blood Moon when he has no cards in hand, and nothing in play.
G2: Attempt to resolve Blood Moon over just blasting a Delver, which wound up being a mistake as the Moon was countered through double Pyroblast back up with a FoW pitching Stifle and a Daze - this was a good play on his end though, I probably would have pitched the Daze and not played around 2x REB effect. End up getting run over by Goyf and Delver, after an Abrupt Decay on Bridge later. Felt like I could have won this one if I had killed Delver instead of trying for Blood Moon, as I could have comboed off with one more turn's worth of life.
G3: Land an early Bridge, but later attempts to Blood Moon get ADed or countered. Eventually have SDT, but hit nothing but lands for at least 2 or 3 turns until I land Koth, but he goes 2x Goyf, and ADs my Bridge, hitting me for 21 in 2 two turns. I usually side Koth out in this matchup, so I'm not sure why I left in this time.
Overall, came in 6th and went 4-1-1 discounting the ID in R5. I like the list a lot, and if I were to make changes, I would move the Revoker to the MD over the Engineered Explosives, as at my LGS, there isn't a ton of U/R Delver and still a lot of matchups where Revoker is good. Phyrexian Processor seemed like it was pretty insane, though I didn't quite actually win against Miracles with it, it certainly did what it was supposed to.
Beyond that, I'm going to try this SB for a bit, though it is just a slight variation on the one posted above:
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Processor
SB: 1 Sudden Shock
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Crimson Acolyte (really not sure about this one)
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (not sure here either, might just want the 3rd Canonist)
Oh yeah, and I finally got P3K Recruiters!
Hey guys, new to this deck and I'm wondering if there's a budgety version that doesn't use Recruiter? I know it won't be as good, but I'm more of a casual player wanting to play a LGS legacy tournament.
It's severely crippled but you could probably play some extremely graveyard heavy build with 4x welder, 4 gamble, and some number of Enlightened Tutor and Daretti, and RW fetches/duals. It really is not the same deck though. Also, City of Traitors is pretty pricy, and if you don't want those, then I probably wouldn't try it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by thotcrime
The original posts are nice, but clearly outdated with the change in the meta since Khans.
Does anyone have a link to the most recently successful version at a larger tournament? SCG Open/Grand Prix level or higher.
I'm gonna be playing in the invitational in a couple weeks, and I have access to all the cards in this deck through a friend. I really like the blood moon/chalice denial type strategies at the moment, especially since legacy is my weaker format. I'm all about getting the occasional free win and hoping my standard record is good enough to carry me. Was originally thinking of playing MUD for this reason, but after playtesting realized it's too slow and inconsistent against too many decks.
Lastly, if you had to play the deck at a tournament tomorrow, would you suggest a mono-red version or a splash white for enlightened tutors and a toolbox sideboard? I keep waffling back and forth. I love the consistency the tutor adds, especially since we already have multiple ways to find painter, but not grindstone. If I see a window, I want to be able to take it immediately. But, not sure if that makes the deck more vulnerable to wasteland and other effects that I'm not thinking about.
You should play mono red. It has a more stable manabase, more straightforward lines and won't punish mistakes as hard. If you want to play shortcake you'll need to jam a lot more games to get comfortable before your tournament. As far as updated lists, the white splash section has links to successful showings. Yes, the other posts above are semi-outdated, but I'm sure some on here have their tweaked red lists for this meta.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=75202 is the last list that top 16'd an open.Quote:
Originally Posted by enzee
If I had been given the proper time extension in the second to last round of SCG Richmond I would have won and been playing for top 16 as well (no way of knowing if I would have won or not) and my list can be found here: http://mtgpulse.com/event/18566#261705 though I was running A 3rd SSG instead of a Koth. I tried him main to deal with the more controlling meta I was expecting...it was not good.
If you want to play the deck at the invitational you really need to find a list that looks good to you and test it out. The white version is more consistent but I agree with Kap if you're not comfortable in legacy the mono r version is probably where you want to be. Also, it's not a gp or open but I would suggest you base your deck around jonathon suarez's list http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76180. For somebody who doesn't get to play much he has consistent results.
I cant found the shortcake post can anyone give me the link?
Page 1Quote:
Originally Posted by uohoo
I think it's the second post (by Kapn Cook)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Deleted
What is the advantage of the mono red versus shortcake? From the couple lists I've seen, it just seems like you lose out on enlightened tutor for combo redundancy and the toolbox that can provide. On paper, I'm not seeing what's makes it more complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I'm not disagreeing with you, btw, just wondering if you could give a breakdown of what the advantage/disadvantage is between the two. My big advantage in magic is that I am a very quick learner, so I should be able to get in enough games to be passable with either version, but only if I focus on that one for the next two weeks.
First off, the decks are basically the same if you can T1 Blood Moon - always do this in the dark. In games where this doesn't happen, they play a little differently. Mono-red is less complicated than Shortcake, not more. In the following, keep in mind, these decks are VERY VERY similar, and do many of the same things equally well, or only slightly skewed one way or another, so whatever differences are listed here are exaggerated for the purposes of finding and explaining them, since you're asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by enzee
Mono-red tends to be more controlling, and plays more prison elements, MD removal, usually more Moon effects (6-7 instead of 5), sometimes MD Koth or another planeswalker, more Revokers, and more Ensnaring Bridges MD. Mono-red has very little deck manipulation, and card quality in your hands helps you to lock your opponents out of the game if you correctly leverage the pressure of comboing off on your opponents resources to either actually combo quickly or resolve your lock pieces. However, mono-red doesn't run E-Tutor, and only has Top for deck manipulation, so most of your choices after the first few turns of the game are going to be based on what's in your hand ie you will have less of a chance of hitting "outs." Once Blood Moon is down, you also lose a lot of your shuffle effects besides Imperial Recruiter.
The advantages, in my mind, are 1) VERY stable manabase, wasteland isn't very good against you, no Blood Mooning yourself out of white mana etc. 2) your MD is more controlling, making match-ups where your combo is bad have much better G1s 3) You can also be slightly more aggressive when it comes to beating down, as you will usually be running Koth and Simian Spirit Guides over Lotus Petals, and your Pyroblasts and REBs have more surprise value. 4) While you're not exactly a card advantage machine, you usually don't lose any to E-Tutor, and the strength of 3x Bridges and 6-7x Moons sets you up for the long games. These long games usually don't take a ton of thought to play once you get down Blood Moon and Bridge, as you're pretty close to untouchable at that point against most of the field. If you don't get there though, it's pretty unlikely that playing to your outs is going to reward you very much. Very high power, and lots of redundancy, but slightly lower "play" when it comes to leveraging skill and outs for unlikely wins. Your wins will often be landslides, and your losses will usually be the same.
RW w/2 Tutor, on the other hand, is more capable of quick combo, either through PS/GS or T2 tutored Moon if T1 doesn't happen. You lose out on a card via your draw step, however, and sometimes this can be quite a blow out. ETutor does allow you to run fewer copies of Bridge, and the it's flexibility also can let you skimp on removal in the MD, since you can hope to tutor the for your singleton artifact answers etc. It can play a long prison style game extremely well, but perhaps not as powerfully as mono-red. In some ways E-Tutor makes the deck more quick and consistent, but a bit more fragile in G1. The real advantage of Shortcake is in the SB, where you get access to white hate cards, and can run singletons as tutor targets. Mono-red sideboards are very much brute force affairs, and are something like 3x Tormod's Crypt, 3-4 Thorn of Amethyst, 3-4 Firebolt, and a couple of Imperial Recruiter targets. Shortcake sideboard is much more flexible. This deck does sometimes trip over itself with Blood Mooning itself out, getting crucial spells countered, lots of opportunities to open yourself up for 2-for-1s etc., though. Quick, but does not have a high density of super knock-out cards like mono-red does. More finesse, less overt power, better SBed games against bad matchups, less powerful G1s against good matchups.
Between the two, Mono-red is a little bit easier to play, because when it's doing it's thing, it is very hard to lose. When you have Blood Moon and Bridge out, it's basically like having Counterbalance and Top, and sometimes it's significantly better than that. The deck often just slams cards into play and hopes for the best though, particularly after the first couple of turns. Shortcake is a little bit slicker, and usually is just trying to assemble the combo by baiting out counterspells on prison pieces etc. and then comboing off quickly before the opponent can recover. It's much more about choosing your moment, and playing around the opponent, which is a little trickier.
In short though, Shortcake aims to combo quickly, while mono-red usually seeks to establish control first by using the threat of the combo. Ideally, either way the opponent fights it leaves them susceptible to whichever elements they can't fight, be that the combo game or the prison game.
Mana-base vs. SB flexibility is a matter of preference, though with Wasteland currently on the downswing, this is less of a concern these days. If you're curious, I played some with Shortcake before switching back to Mono-red, which I preferred for quite a long while. With the printing of Containment Priest, which I really truly believe is a bit of a catch all for our bad matchups (Elves, Sneak, Dredge, Reanimator, etc. etc.), I decided I wanted to run a white splash, but play a pretty controlling mono-red style list. The upshot of Burn and U/R Delver also was incentive to look for good SB options, and Kor Firewalker was the best in my testing. I ended up sort of merging between the two perspectives, trying to take the powerful SB and white cards, while opting for a more controlling, less all-in combo deck. I run a heavier white splash than Shortcake, but it is purely for SB options, and these white SB slots conveniently do not usually come in against decks where Blood Moon is good. This deck is pretty easy to play if you have experience with mono-red, and has a much better and unexpected sideboard than strict red, I think.
If you're interested in this list, I posted one in the tournament report a few posts above this one, and in the last couple pages back. If not, I highly recommend the front page for Mono-Red (and Johnathan Suarez's or Greg Smith's lists) and Kapn's Shortcake list (which is fantastic, proven, and absolutely the basis for my whiter build now, and even the general guide for most numbers in my old mono-red deck), and check out Jandax's primer and sroncor's posts. Really, read their stuff and try it out, I spent close to a year just playing through all their old posts at my LGS each week to see what I liked before I even started posting or tinkering with my own ideas, just to know what I liked about all the different card choices and builds.
Also, here's a handyish list of some recordings of people playing, so you can see the difference:
http://www.mtgcoverage.com/asearch.p...rial%20Painter
I would watch Greg Smith, Jack, and Jean-Mary Accart, in particular. Greg Smith is always on Mono-red, Jack Kitchen is Shortcake, Jean-Mary Accart is Shortcake, Reuben Bresler is on Shortcake.
Good luck!
Did you read a few post down on the first page under Shortcake 2.0 i believe. Kapncook updated the post with recent wins in Sep/Oct 2014 and the current version he and Seth is running in the Cruise meta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enzee
Also worth noting, is that with any version of this deck (or probably any deck, really,) you're going to lose a lot before you get a feel for what's important in each matchup, at each stage in each game. This is every so slightly less true of Mono-Red than of Shortcake, but cards will lose and gain value throughout the course of each game in ways you wouldn't expect, unless you have a lot of experience with the decks.
I skimmed through there yesterday, didn't see it. I'll look again.Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverpool
@RingoDeathStarr:
Thank you for very much, very insightful. Honestly, I'm optimistic, but realistic about my chances at the invitational. It's my first one, need to go just to work out the nerves of playing with the pros and increase my comfort level for the next one in richmond. If I can make day 2, I'll be happy. If I make the money, it'll feel like I won the tournament.
So, if I can have a 50/50 or better record in legacy, I think I have a good shot at reaching my goals. I've got more standard experience and think I know what the meta will look like.
In the mono-red lists, has anyone tried a couple cavern of souls in the manabase? Seems like the main way most decks can stop our combo is by countering servant or welder, if you can ensure one of them resolves, they just couldn't do anything about it other then stall for a turn (or only StP, but a servant out on blue lets us counter those now at least, at least we've reduced their outs).
Considering we don't need much colored mana in that version, it just seems good on paper. Does it not work as well in practice?
edit: I mean, obviously it just becomes a mountain under blood moon, but either blood moon has locked them out of the game and then it doesn't matter.. or we're trying to power out the combo, and it prevents the counterspell. Just seems like it gives some inevitability against Force of will and such. Especially against U/R delver, where the blood moon doesn't lock them out of the game, and they have to counter the grindstone.
This deck seems much weaker in the current meta now that some of our favorable matchups (Shardless BUG) have been pushed out, and now that many of the easier Delver matchups (mainly UWR, but also RUG, to a lesser extent), have been replaced with the much faster UR variant that has a faster clock and a strong burn-out plan. It's also rough seeing a ton of Smash to Smithereens and Hydroblasts everywhere, so I've laid down this deck for a while.
Have any of you guys made changes to the deck to address the new meta shifts? I've seen some interesting inclusions, such as Dragon's Claw and Daretti, but I'm not sure this is a strong choice for many players at this point.