[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Danyul, could I bug you for your list? Mine is a tad dated with only 3 NO main and 19 lands. Was trying to figure out how to squeeze another NO and Arbor without hurting to much of the Glimpse combo consistency.

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1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

10 Fetchlands
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea’s Cradle

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay

I'm testing the 10th fetchland over a Llanowar Elf. So far things have been working as planned and I have been mulliganning less often. So that seems like a solid change. The lone Priest is in where the Heritage Druid would usually be. Chrandersen suggested that change a while back as a way to shore up the Sneak Attack matchup but I also like it in the Elves mirror and against other combo decks or decks light on removal. The 4th Heritage is an easy cut because it does nothing in multiples and requires a significant board presence to really get going anyway. I'm not in the 4th MD NO camp but if I was I'd probably cut the Priest or first. Or the Viridian Shaman if you don't see that being useful in your meta.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

His build is pretty standard - Ruric main to battle combo/spell heavy decks, extra mana dorks and second Hoof for consistency, eschewing the usual silver bullets (forgoing Viridian Shaman nowadays is suicide IMO).

Sideboard is rather standard as well.

Discard: vs. combo, vs. blue decks where NO is the main plan.
NO+Prog: In some matchups NO is the main plan because the opponent just loses horribly to Ruric or Progenitus. Fourth NO gives speed and consistency to that. Is in the board because it can often be clunky in many matchups.
Abrupt Decay: Catchall solution to nasty things. Kills Delvers, Counterbalances, Energy Fields, Aven Mindcensors, Vials...
KGrip: I can only imagine this is here for Miracles and Show and Tell. Hits Leyline of "Yay let's turn mulligans into lottery" and kills Divining Top.
Shaman: Artifact destruction, better maindecked.
Ooze: Faster-than-DRS graveyard hate, and a total boss in many fair matchups esp. vs. tempo.

I can't give out detailed guides atm, but the general patterns of side-outs are:
1. Shave numbers here and there. Lots of -1 this -1 that to make room without hurting versatility.
2. Cut Heritages and Nettles down to 1-2 copies each. The Nettle-Heritage engine requires a lot of resources to actually work, which just isn't realistic in many matchups. The decks that force this usually dislike Symbiote-Visionary and fold to NO-Pro.
3. Cut the Best Friends Team. The Symbiote-Visionary engine kicks ass, but it's slow. Combo decks usually are not slow, and cards pretty much need to beat for 2+ or have otherwise great immediate impact. -3, -3 they go, one copy of each left in for those oddball grindy games.

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Thank you very much. I think i got it. Now, i'll have to take more notes. Thanks again! :)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You may look at the primer and Julian's BoM 8 Report (splitted in 2 parts on StarCityGames) to find all your questions answered. Please step back from asking him via PM in that regards as his Message folder is perma-flooded with people asking him about boarding since he won BoM. Thanks

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Thank you! I will be sure to do that. I appologize for any inconvenience caused. Thank you very much! :)

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Originally Posted by danyul

The lone Priest is in where the Heritage Druid would usually be. Chrandersen suggested that change a while back as a way to shore up the Sneak Attack matchup but I also like it in the Elves mirror and against other combo decks or decks light on removal. The 4th Heritage is an easy cut because it does nothing in multiples and requires a significant board presence to really get going anyway. I'm not in the 4th MD NO camp but if I was I'd probably cut the Priest or first. Or the Viridian Shaman if you don't see that being useful in your meta.

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Having a Priest live can get pretty silly pretty fast, considering all the untap effects we have.

In one of my old builds it let me hardcast an Emrakul on turn 3, lol. Sure, your hand had to be pretty nuts to be able to do so and you could pretty much only do it when your opponent didn't kill or counter any of your stuff, but still. Even managed to actually do it once during an event, game 2 against an Affinity player. The Emrakul plot also was why I chose to run a Fierce Empath :smile:.

I do not know why, but I'm not too keen on the Priest MD. It can get pretty damn stupid, but I'm still stuck on 3 x Birchlore Ranger for more explosiveness when lacking Heritage Druid.
Lately, Elves! been sitty comfortably in its deck box all foiled up except lands since I'm learning D&T
Also.
Fierce Empath? WUTZ?

In my old build running Emrakul. The biggest trick there that people never saw coming was GSZ -> Fierce Empath -> Emrakul. So you pretty much had 6 potential Emrakuls in your deck :laugh:. And yes, this was in an age where I ran multiple Priests of Titania, Elvish Archdruids and 3 Concordant Crossroads. The most silly thing that deck could do during a Glimpse chain was having a Crossroads in play and returning one Priest/Archdruid to your hand to untap a second and replaying the first Priest/Archdruid, essentially untapping 2 Priests/Archdruids minus 2/3 mana with 1 Wirewood Symbiote :smile:. Good times!

After that I never really could part with the Empath. Just one of my idiosyncrasies :smile:. Nowadays it allows me to GSZ the Empath to get Hoof/Regal Force in hand and use the Empath to make that one last mana (yay, Birchlore/Heritage) I need to cast the darn thing the following turn every once in a while. It already won me a couple of long games.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

In my old build running Emrakul. The biggest trick there that people never saw coming was GSZ -> Fierce Empath -> Emrakul. So you pretty much had 6 potential Emrakuls in your deck :laugh:. And yes, this was in an age where I ran multiple Priests of Titania, Elvish Archdruids and 3 Concordant Crossroads. The most silly thing that deck could do during a Glimpse chain was having a Crossroads in play and returning one Priest/Archdruid to your hand to untap a second and replaying the first Priest/Archdruid, essentially untapping 2 Priests/Archdruids minus 2/3 mana with 1 Wirewood Symbiote :smile:. Good times!

After that I never really could part with the Empath. Just one of my idiosyncrasies :smile:. Nowadays it allows me to GSZ the Empath to get Hoof/Regal Force in hand and use the Empath to make that one last mana (yay, Birchlore/Heritage) I need to cast the darn thing the following turn every once in a while. It already won me a couple of long games.

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I would venture to say that if you're casting GSZ for 3 (4 mana) and then hard casting a Hoof (8 mana, 12 total) you'd would have enough to just GSZ for Hoof in the first place. Just play the fourth Natural Order if you want another tutor.

I understand that running the singleton Priest isn't conventional right now. And it's actually a bit greedy. If anybody wants to adopt my list without giving in to the Greed of the Priest, then they can just swap in a Heritage Druid and call it a day. No problem.

That said, I never intended for my usage of Priest to morph into a defense of Fierce Empath. Dat shit cray.

Fuck it.
-1 Priest
+1 Wolf Skull Shaman

iirc they said there were no elves in theros block :(

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

Doesn't this fall into the argument that if you resolve NO or Hoof you just win anyway? I see the point that if we have a low count on our elves and NO goes then Hoof likely does nothing major; but we have Prog boarded for such a case. Don't get me wrong I see the point, I'd just like to know how its working for you.

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The idea is to still have the option to go for Hoof with your NO if you have enough creatures and the scenario is right for him.

More to your question/point, though -

I find Hornet Queen matches up well against those decks in which Hoof is a harder/less-reliable kill.

Aka Delver variants (grindy, lots of removal, unblockable flier), and Sneak/Show which can just be faster to where you can only fire off an early NO with 1-2 guys remaining at best.

Against these matchups, Hornet Queen effectively ends the game, just not 'literally' the turn it's entered. True-name + equipment is probably the only case where you're not winning the race post-Hornet (tho playing a MD Viridian Shaman is defensible these days I think).

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Originally Posted by danyul

1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

10 Fetchlands
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea’s Cradle

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar
1 Progenitus
3 Abrupt Decay

I'm testing the 10th fetchland over a Llanowar Elf. So far things have been working as planned and I have been mulliganning less often. So that seems like a solid change. The lone Priest is in where the Heritage Druid would usually be. Chrandersen suggested that change a while back as a way to shore up the Sneak Attack matchup but I also like it in the Elves mirror and against other combo decks or decks light on removal. The 4th Heritage is an easy cut because it does nothing in multiples and requires a significant board presence to really get going anyway. I'm not in the 4th MD NO camp but if I was I'd probably cut the Priest or first. Or the Viridian Shaman if you don't see that being useful in your meta.

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I loved when I ran 10 fetches, however in the last couple months I've dropped to 9. To be honest I don't remember why, but I do want to find a efficient way to run 10 with my current build. I don't run Priest main, but right now I am running Ooze and Shaman main. Ooze is recent due to some meta shifts, but I'm never disappointed seeing it. I ran a total of 3 regular mana dorks before adding Ooze, in which I dropped a Llanowar. If I wasn't on the Swan Song kick, I'd trade my Trop Island for a 10th fetch, and I'd likely be closer to your sideboard as well with the Meekstones. Meekstone had worked wonders for me against TNN + Delver, not to mention Mongoose + Goyf.

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Originally Posted by danyul

That said, I never intended for my usage of Priest to morph into a defense of Fierce Empath. Dat shit cray.

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Neither did I, for that matter. I was just highlighting one of my little quirks, that's all. No defense or arguement intended whatsoever.

Hello everyone,

I would like some advises on my manabase : ATM i am playing a greedy 18 lands.
This includes : 1 Dryad Arbor, 4 Gaea's Cradle & 13 "real lands" (only 8 of them being fetches).

I am a regular reader of this Elves! thread and i have been through most of the pages and explanations, thus i know this manabase is a bit greedy and light on fetchlands.
I wish for some input (considering my current main + sb, listed below) to find at least 1 card to cut for another land (a fetch i guess).

My "issue" is that I became attached to most of the flex slots in my main, so i have a hard time cutting something for another land (i guess that top candidates are Heritage Druid, Scavenging Ooze, Viridian Shaman and Birchlore Rangers)


1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

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Originally Posted by B4L4

Hello everyone,

I would like some advises on my manabase : ATM i am playing a greedy 18 lands.
This includes : 1 Dryad Arbor, 4 Gaea's Cradle & 13 "real lands" (only 8 of them being fetches).

I am a regular reader of this Elves! thread and i have been through most of the pages and explanations, thus i know this manabase is a bit greedy and light on fetchlands.
I wish for some input (considering my current main + sb, listed below) to find at least 1 card to cut for another land (a fetch i guess).

My "issue" is that I became attached to most of the flex slots in my main, so i have a hard time cutting something for another land (i guess that top candidates are Heritage Druid, Scavenging Ooze, Viridian Shaman and Birchlore Rangers)


1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

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Cutting a Heritage Druid and another mana dork seems fine here. That's the direction most are taking from what I've seen. 9 fetches is ok so I would just add 1 more fetch land and another Dryad Arbor.

For anyone interested in running 4 main deck Natural Orders, this is a list I've been having success with at my store, though it is not the most competitive place to play:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Progenitus

3 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Bayou

Some notes to take into consideration: I'm pretty much entirely on the Natural Order plan here as I've cut Heritage Druid from my list completely and reduced the Glimpse count to 3. Glimpse is a great turn 2 play regardless as it still can net me 3-4 cards without a cradle and I can still go off if I find my Birchlore Ranger. Elvish Spirit Guide I know is not actually an elf, but cutting the Heritage Druids left me with slots that needed to be filled, and filling them with a creature that enables a turn 2 Progenitus fairly easily seemed like a good idea to me. I have 10 fetches to make sure my Deathrite consistently has some food.

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Originally Posted by matty

Cutting a Heritage Druid and another mana dork seems fine here. That's the direction most are taking from what I've seen. 9 fetches is ok so I would just add 1 more fetch land and another Dryad Arbor.

For anyone interested in running 4 main deck Natural Orders, this is a list I've been having success with at my store, though it is not the most competitive place to play:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Progenitus

3 Glimpse of Nature
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Bayou

Some notes to take into consideration: I'm pretty much entirely on the Natural Order plan here as I've cut Heritage Druid from my list completely and reduced the Glimpse count to 3. Glimpse is a great turn 2 play regardless as it still can net me 3-4 cards without a cradle and I can still go off if I find my Birchlore Ranger. Elvish Spirit Guide I know is not actually an elf, but cutting the Heritage Druids left me with slots that needed to be filled, and filling them with a creature that enables a turn 2 Progenitus fairly easily seemed like a good idea to me. I have 10 fetches to make sure my Deathrite consistently has some food.

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I don't get how ESG is better at making mana than Heritage Druid, or why you even run Glimpse if you forego Heritage, or why Birchlore would be run with no splash over Heritage. You absolutely need a mana dork T1 for your T2 NO plan to work and any bit of interaction leaves your plan in shambles CA-wise.

I think a fundamental reason the deck works so well currently is how well the deck balances the two separate ways we win (NO and Glimpse). Depending too much on one or the other leaves us exposed to opponents who sideboard aggressively against one particular Elf strategy (pretty much why Elves was Tier 2 for most of its pre-NO iterations since it relied so heavily on resolving Glimpse).

Also, ESG is an elf, she received errata. :P

Just in case, I want to make it clear that my list is not intended to be used in large tournaments especially in Europe. My list is tuned for my meta game which is much different. I intended my list to be a starting point for lists with 4 Natural Orders.

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Originally Posted by Benjammn

I don't get how ESG is better at making mana than Heritage Druid, or why you even run Glimpse if you forego Heritage, or why Birchlore would be run with no splash over Heritage. You absolutely need a mana dork T1 for your T2 NO plan to work and any bit of interaction leaves your plan in shambles CA-wise

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It isn't necessarily better at making mana then Heritage Druid, he just uses it to increase the number of ways he can cast NO on turn 2. He feels Heritage Druid doesn't help him achieve that, so he cuts them for something that actually does help him achieve his goal. And that's what he's saying - he wanted his deck to rely more heavily on the NO-plan.

If he has an ESG in his hand instead of a Cradle, assuming his first turn was Land -> Dork, he doesn't have to rely on Quirion Ranger to get him to the 4 mana he needs - another land (even Cradle) will do the trick as well. Being able to NO more often on turn 2 is why he plays Progenitus in his main deck (since Craterhoof would be rather useless on turn 2, in most cases).

That being said, I don't think this is a strategy that would work well in a meta where you face a lot of decks running blue, since you have no way of preventing your NO of being countered. Also, again, I'm not starting a defense on this plan - I'm only offering an explanation, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by matty

Just in case, I want to make it clear that my list is not intended to be used in large tournaments especially in Europe. My list is tuned for my meta game which is much different. I intended my list to be a starting point for lists with 4 Natural Orders.

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The list is so far out there and is worse than what we have now. It should not be used as a starting point for lists with 4 natural orders.

What should be used as a base discussion for a 4 natural order list is the generally agreed upon list to within a card or two that has been placing competitively for months. The only change that is being discussed is +1 natural order -1 something.

There's no need to make a brand new direct downgrade list for the purpose of discussing a change of ONE card.

Man, ok. Sorry for sharing.

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