merfolk is a bye, goblins is an easy mu, 43 land is not favored, Zoo can be tricky, it all depends on your list... try actually reading through the thread
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merfolk is a bye, goblins is an easy mu, 43 land is not favored, Zoo can be tricky, it all depends on your list... try actually reading through the thread
I wouldn't play any of the recently posted lists at any GP or trial, or anywhere at all actually... go back a few months of posts and look at those lists.
I agree w/ most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
Merfolk : easiest of the tribal for us, except some random splash can give fits.
Goblins : Mono Red is easiest, black, white, and green splashes give problems
43 land: free win
Zoo: 60-40 them. resolve a first turn blood moon will change this to about 80-20 us. But that's not really easy.
Tempo Thresh: black-ok, white-better, red-worse. Slight advantage to us in black and white. Slight advantage to can thresh
CB TOP: Our Deck was made for this deck. Slight advantage to decent advantage depending on player.
BANT survival: Much debated previously. I never lost to it (i think 5-0 in tournies), but a BANT guy says he's 9-0 agasint stompy. IDK what u should think. I feel we're ok, but obviously, some ppl have problems. Even?
Ichorid: could lose game one, but good mu. try not to lose g1, b/c they can still win g3 first turn.
ANT: good, not quite free
Belcher: same
Eva: a bit difficult. If ur lucky enough that they run 0 or few basics, big advantage to u, but smart players know better.
Dream Halls: Difficult
Reanimator: can be difficult if they run 1cc and 2cc reanimation.
UW tempo: pretty hard. It's been on the rise recently, but I haven't played it much. I'd say even?
aggro survival variants: kinda bad. w/ iona combo = pretty bad.
Stax: semifavorable in there new GW build. even in the mono white builld
Aggro Loam: Even. The matches will look lobsided tho, so don't get discouraged if u get pwned badly.
Enchantress: Bad
----
as gibsonmac said, these mu's change A LOT when u change ur deck structure. Like thresh, there's a good variety of D-stompy lists.
Also, if you don't know how exactly to play, stick with ur goblins list, b/c decision making is much easier for u that way.
Go through deckcheck.com and the thread for decklists.
From my experiences I actually think your analysis is a little off.
In most matchups, it's actually more important if you go first and if you get the appropriate hate against the appropriate deck (and guess correctly) rather than the actual deck you are playing against.
From my testing this deck quite a bit about 6 months ago, I see some differences in that:
Merfolk is unfavorable,
Goblins is about even but becomes much much worse on the draw (moreso than other decks). This is because goblins has had to adapt to decks running a light but efficient amount of goyf-ish threats, and dragon stompy usually doesn't have that many guys out at once,
Zoo is unfavorable,
CBTop is very favorable (hard to lose),
and Aggro Loam is horrible.
But that was 6 months ago, and new developments have happened in all those decks, so I can't say for sure. I also haven't played this deck as much as others so my analysis might be somewhat off. I don't think you can really look at dragon stompy that way though, because t1 blood moon against 43land makes it an auto-win, but if you don't have a moon effect you will either have to mull (possibly a lot) or face a significant decrease in your chances to win.
Hey foulq,Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
again, it varies depending on your build. I agree that zoo is unfavorble, i gave the percentage to them, not us.
CB top i also put as decently favorable like yours, but with smart players (running well played grips, EE's, basics, and sowers) it's not a free win like 43 land. That's all i was saying.
Goblins I said mono red was the easiest of the goblin varients, but i forgot to actually state the mu. i feel it's even too, but early lcky/vial + removal w/ splash is definitely hard.
So we have pretty much the same idea except for merfolk.
I guess this is where our builds differ. I run 3 Pyrokinesis, 2 volcanic fallouts, 2 jittes, 3 slogger, 2 akroma postboard. The only one i ever lost to in a tournie was one that splashed green with goyfs which i didn't see until game 2. Not much of those builds are around tho, and overall, people feel it's still a good matchup and definitely the easiest tribal (maybe elves too). gibsonmac called it a bye so i know im not the only one.
U are right, going first is important, but aside from being a good dye roller, that's out of your hands.
U are also right that it depends on ur hate. Much of our hate obviously should go towards aggro, b/c the only control we fear is black and muc. no one runs muc, so u should have a good aggro side.
Wow. What strange matchup analyses.
If you're playing a -normal- list, and by this I mean 18-19 land, Moxes, Songs, Sloggers, Chalices, Moons, Trinis, Threats, etc, this is what your matchups should look like. Keep in mind I'm assuming a sideboard of:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Powder Keg
3 Anarchy/Pyroclasm/Boil
Merfolk: About even. Fluctuates on either side of even depending on if they maindeck Echoing Truth and/or Jitte. If you're boarding your playset of Powder Kegs and Needles (You ARE, aren't you?), this gets easier after board. You can easily lose this matchup if they get the die roll on you, though. Sloggers rule this matchup.
Goblins: About even. Kegs and Clasms in board help. Pyrokinesis hurts. Sloggers are ungodly.
43 Land: Highly favored. Cut Trinisphere post-board. They pay for everything with ease. Bring in Crypts and Needles.
Anything UGW with Tarmogoyf and Force in it: Even to Slightly Favored. I don't care how much crack you smoke. If you're smart, you can learn to beat these decks.
Tempo Thresh: Favored, but don't get overconfident. They're WAY more consistent than you are. Blood Moon wins immediately. Chalices and Trinispheres are beasts. Keg is strong against them postboard. And Stifle and Spell Snare are limited against you.
Aggro Loam: Unfavored, but not by as much as people think. Needles and Crypts are good here. Aggro Loam typically has very few answers to Rakdos Pit Dragon, so you can steal a lot of games by abandoning other strategies and racing with one.
Zoo: Very hard. Chalice at 1 helps, but they have Pridemage. You can stop Pridemage to a degree with Moons. If Zoo drops down in stature, though, DS becomes a strong meta choice again.
Stax: Slightly favored. Play it out awhile.
Enchantress: Yes, it's still the bane of DS.
Every Serious Combo Deck in the format that doesn't involve one giant threat: Favored.
Reanimator: Difficult. RPD can actually outrace Iona, but Iona isn't the problem. Sphinx of the Steel Wang is. Chalices and Crypts help, but this might be even at best.
Who's analysis is strange so far?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
The 3-4 of us pretty much agree on all mu's except merfolk and loam correct?
In terms of merfolk, i think we both agree that post side really flips the playing field right? i don't play keg, but kinesis and VCF also does the trick, with slogger to back it up. i dont mind if no one like akroma tho.
I guess the only true disagreement is the aggro loam. ill be honest, i havent faced the white splash, so i might not truly understand how strong that deck has become, so ill trust u guys. it has been bumped to a DTB for a reason.
Finally, why do u feel that pyrokinesis against goblins is bad? is it lack of attrition?
What about grafted skullcap?
This is almost exactly what I have found. I think I differ a little in the tribal matchups (I believe it is slightly unfavorable, but almost negligible), where DS's god hands win automatically, but the tribal decks have a much higher consistency advantage. The only other matchup I disagree with is Zoo. Moon effects are fairly good, as most lists are only running four Lightning Bolt, therefore Magus is not as bad as she seems when the Zoo player taps out. Qasali obviously is a beating and Rakdos Pit Dragon is pretty terrible, but the lock pieces are very effective when they stick around. I do not think DS is favored in that matchup, but I think it is not horrible. The 60-40 that was mentioned earlier seems in the ballpark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
So I finally put this deck together yesterday, and now I need to assemble a sideboard My MD is fairly standard:
10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Arc-Slogger
2 Taurean Mauler
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Umezwa's Jitte
Right now, My SB is:
4 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury.
As you can see, I have a lot of space to play around with. I have access to everything mentioned above bu Powder Keg with ease-how necessary is it? Right now, my inclination is to go 4 Gravehate/2 aggro Hate/3 Anarchy or what have you.
Also, what does sideboarding vs. the popular archetypes look like anyhow?
I don't play powder keg, but a lot of people like it and would consider it a mustQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
for graveyard hate, some play relic, but I like tormod's crypt b/c there's less antisynergy w/ chalice and hellbent
If your meta doesn't have a lot of aggro, then i guess 2 is ok, but the aggro hate really helps against merfolk and zoo.
Anarchies are awesome, except they only come into play conditionally for Bant, and good for enchantress.
Your deck is built very similarly to mine. I find that I don't use pithing needle nearly as much as other SB, so maybe you can cut a few for space.
Can someone help me???
My friend just pwned the San Diego tournie the other day with survival=> loyal retainer=> iona combo.
Do we have an answer whatsoever (outside of our GY hate)? I used to feel our mu was a little bad, but consistently dropping iona in a nonreanimator deck is a nightmare. with kitchen finks, goyfs and swords to stall, iona is pretty much a bomb.
Your main deck is identical to my own list and I run the folowing sideboardQuote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
4 pithing needle (standard
1 trinisphere
1 umezawa's jitte 'since the beginning of the deck runing 3 between main and side has been good enough for me)
4 tormod's crypt (you wtill want chalice at 1 in this matchup, and even more if it is the NON LED version)
3/4 pyrokinesis (but not that good anymore with the zoo creature's gettign more befed up)
1/2 pyroclasm (also helps in the ichorid matchup
(don't like powder kegge since it's so damn slow for me)
of mabe a mix of boil and anarchy depending on the metagame
I hope this helps you out
I have a strange question for you DS players.
If you were to play a couple of Burning Wishes in the deck (don't judge if it's a bad idea , I now it may be, but it's just to test out something neew in a list that is carved on stone since 2 years), which Red Sorceries would you play?
I'm trying this out with a friend of mine who plays the deck, and we figured out that some silver bullets could help in counterbalancing Dragon Stompy's incapability to answer properly bad situations. That's what we got:
-Firespout: a strong tool against Zoo, since it's a reset that only leaves its Tarmogoyfs. The bad news is that it kills oura army too, but I guess you can use it properly..somehow.
-Pyroclasm: see above. Faster against Goblins and Merfolks, though.and it may also save some monsters of ours (RPD, unmorphed Raiders, and such).
-Aftershock: 2RR. Destroy target creature, artifact or land. You get 3 damage. Slow solution to bad things like too much-grown tarmogoyfs, but it's the only way for red to kill creatures with an ass>3 without playing Wildfire.dec.
-Shattering Spree: well, against Stax and such, even if DS doesn't really need to kill artifacts (maybe Ensnaring Bridge, but it's not played).
-Anarchy: solution to Stax's enchantments, Elspeth, CoP: red (if anyone ever plays them yet), and Progenitus. Not that bad. A Killer against Mighty Quinn and Angel Stompy, too.
These are the slots that are pretty much a nobrainer. Then we're debating over others, which are weakers, like:
-Browbeat (???): a source of card advantage or a sort of burn spell, but i know giving the opponent the faculty to choose is always bad.
-Flashfires/Boiling Seas: the first is crap, whle the second may be interesting, althought there's the instant version, Boil, which is surely better ( not Wishable though).
Do you have any ideas to have solutions for the things this dek suffers the most? I think we should stay between the 6 and 7 slots for the Wishboard, and then the remaining 8 will be a mix of the usual stuff, like Crypt, Powder Keg, and so. (It may also be interesting to test out Volcanic Fallout, maybe).
First of all I'd like to answer to the people with non-Slogger lists! Guys..guys...GUYS!!! I don't like 4 Sloggers either and the fact that they fuck your Hellbent has been discussed all over this thread..but that's no reason to kick all 4!! If you get so anxious play at least 1 or 2. Playing none means that you don't like Slogger or that you fail to see how useful it is, not that you want to fix consistency. That's because we can afford 3-4 5cc mana creatures here and 1 (or two) Slogger(s) will NEVER ruin your Hellbent. Even if you play 1-2 and the chances of drawing one are less, it's a great finisher at the lategame. I'd propose you reconsider.
Iona is a fucking bitch, you can still play Raiders and Red Akroma with equipments though.. Graveyard hate is generally needed, and with the rise of Reanimators, at least 3 or 4 pieces of graveyard hate must fill slots in your sb. Correct me if I'm wrong, sometimes you'll have to play Crypt, or Relic and wait, until the opponent plays an uncountered (by chalice) reanimator spell, then you'll destroy his/her graveyard in response. That's what I would also do with Loyal Retainers. Keep your 4 RPDs in to race them like hell.
My sideboard right now contains 3x Pithing Needle, 1x Shattering Spree, 2x Powder Kegs(I don't have a 3rd one), 2x Pyrokinesis, 4x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Boil and 2x Anarchy. I haven't played 100 games, but it performs quite well. And Magic is a game requiring skill and luck after all, so don't get dissapointed if you get pwned where you shouldn't. Shit happens.
And for @#$%^&* sake! Stop worrying about goddamn Ichorid! Say sth like Powder Keg kills Goyfs, Enchantresses or tokens in general:D Frankly dear, I don't give a damn about Ichorid, a Chalice@1 and a Moon is almost slaughter. If you happen to lose..then you just can't win all the time.
@ Piceli89 :
Check out my second post at page 91. Maybe delete Empty the Warrens and try Icefall. If you are eager to try new things you may also try 3x Lay Waste main instead of B.Wishes, or 3x Volcanic Submersion or Aftershocks. Multipurpose spells with Land Destruction included, could be very helpful against all those 1-of fetched basics. Play +1 Mountain if you get expensive.
I've been testing a non-Hellbent stompy with 12 Mountains, 1 Slogger, no Seething Songs, 3 Avalanche Riders, 3 Shivan Wumpus, 4 Stone Rain, 2-4 Scorched Earth, and 2-4 Aftershocks or Volcanic Submersions. It's slower, and it sure needs tuning up, but it's worth a try. Play Wumpus after LD, so that his 2 choices are both bad.
I wouldn't play Firespout (or Earthquake-as I see in some deckcheck.net lists), because..it's too suicidal?? Yes, it is!:)
Sideboard for Dragon Stompy needs Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, and Powder Keg. What you do for your last three-four slots is fair game, but these three cards are invaluable in the modern metagame.
Also, your best answer to Iona is to not let her hit play.
I have to agree :] after testing both Riders and Flamtongues in sloggers slot I have to agree. Slogger is mad even with its cost it causes panic.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dysseus
1xBoil 1x Spree - just stuffing the empty place or you're playing tutors?Quote:
Originally Posted by 0dysseus
LOL! easier said than done! I did find your strand about progenitus and iona very helpful tho, so thx tacos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Against reanimator, no problem. i don't mind that mu.
For survival tho, it's quite difficult. they can play around the softlock way better. they just search out a quasali (harmonic, orangatang, whatever), take out the crypt, and throw down the beats next turn.
Lots of people say disk, arenas, etc. but i think disk is too slow to resolve against survival and arenas is just a staller. the big dups seems to be the best, but still is very slow. it's kind of bumming to see it take up a spot in the sb too.
I feel that 2 [card]Kazuul Tyrant of the Cliffs[/card] should replace 2 Arc Slogger.
Just from experience, it seems like the number of situations where I prefer to Kazuul to Slogger outweights the alternate scenario.
which situations are those? (not trying to bash, im actually curious)Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
against gobs, i'd rather have slog cuz he can shoot a lacky or driver inresp to a stingscourger
against ichorid, kazuul slightly, but i still like to shoot my own guys to take out the bridges game 1
I feel kazuul is best against merfolk and pitching to goyfs, but in general, ppl have been paying the 3, and still doing damage. When i get too defensive with merfolk, they just get really fat, and come over with unblockables ( thru sovereign) not caring about tokens cuz they have echoing truth and 4/4-5/5 blockers.
In general, I just feel that kazuul pushes DS in the wrong direction. I'd rather have no 5cc than kazuul and no slogs. just imo tho.
I'm not playing tutors (Burning Wish) with this list, and 15 cards in the SB is tight space already. Not enough space just for stuffing:)Quote:
Originally Posted by AmokPL
To explain, I'll give you a rough example, and if you disagree please tell me why.
Let's say you have: 1) a sideboard of 4x Pithing Needle, 4x Powder Keg, 4x Crypt and...3 Boil.
2)a sideboard of 3x Pithing Needle, 3x Powder Keg, 4x Crypt and 1x Shattering Spree, 1x Boil, 1x Pyrokinesis, 2x Anarchy.
You could use 3 Needles + 1 Shatt.Spree versus a deck that packs Vial, instead of 4 Needles.
Or versus MUC: 3x Pithing Needle, 1x Shattering Spree, 1x Boil..+ 2x Keg instead of: (1st list's) 4 Pithing Needle, 3 Boil (and no Keg vs Shackles because Needle is better here probably,and there is no more space).
So, if two sideboards give you the same number of answers (+-1) with roughly the same cost and use, versus 90% of the decks, then I choose the sb with the variety of answers. Just my opinion.
Easier said than done indeed Taco..Quote:
Originally Posted by mercs
What strand are you talking about? Do you mean thread? If yes, can you give us a link please?
Well at least the Crypt will exile 2-4 cards hopefully in response, if needed in that occasion.
Do you mean Arena of the Ancients? And what is the "big dups"? Could you explain me?