Massacre is crap against Elves. Costs a ton because they probably don't have a Plains out, and is dead vs. Teeg. Would rather play Infest, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
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Massacre is crap against Elves. Costs a ton because they probably don't have a Plains out, and is dead vs. Teeg. Would rather play Infest, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
I don't think that it is crap, i see alot they fetch into bayou,then into Savannah(I mean they don't know that the ANT player plays a Massacre) but i would board it in. It can hit them.;)
When it hits its take a lot speed.
And why i should play Infest? 3 mana? that's crap in my option.
Without Gaddock Teeg in Hand (and no Birchlore Ranger or Deathrite in Play) there is no reason to fetch for savannah for elves. So massacre is dead vs an good opponent and/or teeg. If an elf-player fears massacre he can also bounce savannah via quirion ranger in his turn (your upkeep etc.). I fought against 3 storm combo decks (2x ant, 1x spanish inquisition) at gp strasbourg and never lost with elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Pyroclasm is - in my opinion -the best way (besides cost, but hey - only two mana) to fight hatebears/swarms without mother of runes/counter protection.
Agree
yeah Pyroclasm is probably the best Option for slow down elves. But the important thing is: Keep Fast hands against elves. Then you don't need that.
Totally agree. Infest is just too expensive, I'm back to Pyroclasm myself (playing a version w/ B. Wish).Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
idk i mean teeg/thalia + mother is gg with pyroclasm, infest at least kills all this. im currently testing prosak list -1 preordain+1 grim tutor (without burning wish) and im afraid of not having answers g1 agains that kind of play
Most of the time I am playing the BW-Lists, but that Prosak-list seems interesting to me at the moment (currently testing with -2 Preordain, +1 Grim +1 Therapy and the Trop main instead of 1 Island to increase SB-Space). Yeah, when you had the luxury before to BW for an out to a mother/hatebear-lock it seems like a step back to play straight UB (with a tiny PiF-Splash). But after boarding you have Decays and/or CoV to solve this kind of problem, which should usually be enough (I play a 3/2-split at the moment). So, show your ballz and just win G2+3 :cool:. Sadly ANT often doesn't have the raw speed to win before Thalia/Teeg appears (like TES for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
If Hatebears/Mother-locks are common in your meta, play Dread of Nights, but this would eat at least 3 SB-Slots.
Xantid Swarms seem necessary right now against Show and Tell. It's the best way to fight Leyline of Sanctity without boarding in too many dead bounce spells (and it's good against them even without Leyline in play).
Yeah it seems difficult to beat a deck with a bunch of counterspells and Leyline without any sort of Silence effects. Swarm is a pretty bad topdeck though if you're trying to find protection to go off right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Isn't RR pretty hard to produce in ANT? Most of the time you're going to be shipping the turn anyway unless you have a Petal in play that you can burn. Pyroclasm is a fine option, but I'm just dubious that 2RR is realistic in one turn. And then if you do have to ship turn, not being able to Dark Ritual out Pyroclasm could potentially be an issue with Thalia in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by dune2k
Another option to consider if you think Clasm is a realistic option: Grapeshot. TES uses it as a split card Pyroclasm // mini Storm when we've beat down with Empty for 10 or so. It works well at both jobs.
When I played ANT, I always played a Virtue's Ruin in the board. Why has that fallen out of favor? The only hatebears you're worried about are white (possibly in addition to green). I know I've lost to a Canonist suited up with a Sword of Light and Shadow with a Infest in hand, and I've also lost to a Knight of the Reliquary swinging for lots with Infest in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
Pardon the n00b question, but I'm just getting into ANT and I'm trying to figure out how to sideboard and this matchup in particular is seeming difficult for me. What are you boarding out in order to bring in some quantity of bounce spells AND xantid swarms? Are you just giving up on discard and trying to be faster than them? Or are you trimming Preordains?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
In my limited sideboarding I have been having real trouble figuring out what can get cut when you need to bring in more than like 3 cards.
Greatly prefer virtue's ruin to infest in general. The cost is easier at 2B vs. 1BB and it kills KotR as well, because kotr fetching bojuka bog at instant speed is basically FoW against us. But right now I don't run virtue's ruin because maverick isn't common enough in my area and without maverick in the meta the card is quite useless in comparison to other options.
Going to try a different sideboard tomorrow with swarms, it will likely be -2 thoughtseize -1 chain of vapor +3 xantid swarm. Top floating FoW is a concern as well as the leyline and show and tell issue (it might be just me but I always get turn 2 griselbrand against me via SnT and I fucking hate that card landing against me so much.) Show and tell has been picking up in popularity and losing to that deck makes me want to die when they think they're so clever with their very easy to assemble combo of fatty + enabler.
Also, lose to elves combo? With ANT? The ANT pilot is either bricking off quite hard or is incompetent. Elves is slower and we can pick them apart with hand disruption. Pyroclasm is a giant crutch against them that we don't really need. Duress takes GSZ, glimpse, and NO preboard. Therapy is great if you know how to use it against them. Postboard bounce and abrupt decay is enough. The only remotely hard thing game 1 is an active DRS and even that can be played around because they shouldn't combo off through your discard on them or you can tutor chain them out or have enough mana to go tutor -> tutor -> PiF -> win. The only shot they have is a discard heavy board in games 2 and 3 and potentially mindbreak trap and other such hate that can be played around or through via proper cantripping and not keeping loose hands.
RR is "ok" to produce. With a Thalia in play shipping the turn usually is the only way to cast the clasm or even infest, since your normally don't have enough mana that turn anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Mom def. is a problem when running clasm, but when you are sure to encounter a lot of maverick you'd need to tune your deck differently anyways (DoN, maybe slaughter pact to board in etc). It's - at least in my deck - only there to have an out to the random maverick players you sometimes encounter or to wipe the board to survive another turn (it happens, but shouldn't be the case).
I'm a long time player of Esper Stoneblade, RUG, and Elves. I just traded my divining tops and a moat for LEDs, Infernal Tutors, and some other stuff. Just put the deck together today.
I tested earlier against RUG and Elves, and enjoy the deck immensely.
I just had a couple questions for experienced ANT players:
1) What are the benefits to ANT over TES? My thought is that it is easier to go off. By easier, I mean it appears to be a much less complex decision tree, and I personally like that, especially for long tournaments. So to that end, ANT would appear both easier and a bit more consistent, but less explosive. Is that about right?
2) How do I sideboard? Given that you rarely seem to produce redundant mana, spell pierce, daze, and the like are REALLY annoying. I know this must be the reason for Carpet of Flowers. I just didn't know what to board out.
So to be more specific, what are the typical cards that get boarded out? Also, Abrupt Decay - I imagine the real problem cards this hits are Thalia, Teeg, Chalice of the Void, and Counter balance. There is a fair amount of MUD where I play so it seems good against trinisphere too. When else does it come in?
Thanks in advance!
Congrats on taking the plunge! I've found storm much more rewarding than Stoneblade, hopefully you will too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstormer
1) You're correct. ANT is easier because it's overall more linear on Past in Flames and isn't smooshing all the decisions into the mulligan and turns 1-2. People completely new to storm regularly do well with ANT. More cantrips help recover from small mistakes, you don't have Burning Wish opening up more lines to consider (in most builds nowadays), and you don't have to worry about colors really. That being said, no storm combo is exactly easy. As far as consistency, that's debated, but TES players feel that the consistency issue is overemphasized by ANT players. I know personally that I mulligan at about the same rate with both decks (not much). ANT is certainly less explosive. It's capable of turn 1-2 kills, but t3 is more likely.
2) I'm not honestly sure, but the reasoning I heard for Carpet was to reduce graveyard dependence, so some Cabal Rituals go. I think if ANT is good, it's because Cabal Ritual is a +3 and you can expect to have 3+ lands in play so redundant mana shouldn't honestly be a huge concern. But, taxing counters are one of the main reasons people on this board have talked about splashing W for Silence.
Uhhh, Abrupt Decay comes in when there are hate permanents? It seems like you figured it out...
Thanks! A lot of useful info.
So I have a sense of what to board in and why, but boarding cards out is my big issue! I'm not sure what the most expendable stuff is. Hopefully I can figure it out in time, once I have a better feel for the deck.
Welcome to the dark side. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstormer
ANT vs TES: Admittedly having played a lot less TES than ANT, I find the complexity of both decks reasonably close. Figuring out the extra-angles Burning Wish allows you to take shouldn't really take much effort once your comfortable playing storm. The real thing that makes playing Storm difficult is how much planning you have to do to figure out lines that play around what the opponent could have and those remain the same for both decks.
As for the trade-offs, this is what I had in the pre-Strasbourg article and I still think it remains essentially true:
TES is able to profit more easily from early game openings. The maindeck Empty the Warrens, higher business count, and stronger Ad Nauseams (due to lower converted mana costs and Chrome Moxes) allow the deck to win faster than ANT usually does. Silence is also a much better card to protect yourself while going off than anything ANT can support because it punishes soft counters incredibly well.
What TES gains in speed, ANT regains in resilience. A more resilient mana base (basics, no Chrome Moxes, City of Brasses, or Gemstone Mines), more fetchlands to interact with your cantrips, and more cantrips in general as well as a game plan much more suited to rely on Past in Flames as compared to TES give ANT a much stronger turn 3+ game plan than TES.
As for sideboarding, you usually either switch protection packages (discard for permanent hate) or have to shave a few slots to make room. Things I generally consider for shaving: Probe, Preordain, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, a minor amount of discard, the Grim Tutor. Also consider shaving a land in the fast combo mirror. Against no-discard tempo-decks, Ad Nauseam gets boarded out for Empty the Warrens in my list.
Welcome to the club! One thing thats best about this deck be it UBr or TES is that you only have one goal: EXPLODE, and then you win. No more combat tricks, none of the "will I counter this or that" type of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainstormer
Just EXPLODE!!!
Thanks to your timely statements in another certain thread, I have also been playing storm. That said, I would like to know why there's such a discrepancy in tutor choice? Is there any general consensus on whether the cantrips, 1 grim tutor, or burning wishes are the best choice?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
There is no consense. The question pops up every 2-3 pages in this thread lately. Please scroll a few pages back for the pro's and con's for each buildQuote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
The linked spreadsheet in my signature has some data regarding the quantitative differences between the decks, but unfortunately that doesn't really give much information about the qualitative differences between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
It just straight-up doesn't make sense to me to play 4 Preordains before the first Grim Tutor and the 7th discard spell, but I haven't really tested the 16-cantrip list. I know Prosak's list has done well over many events, so it can't be awful.
I don't really see the point in running Burning Wish in a Cabal Ritual shell. It doesn't play nice with Cabal Ritual or Past in Flames, just like Chrome Mox (which coincidentally helps maximize Burning Wish).
I spend more time playing to learn over playing to win, so I'm actually starting on the 2011 version of the deck with 2 grim tutor over any of the more modern variations. I do plan to try all of them eventually. I love the Burning Wishes in Doomsday but I have mixed feelings about them for this deck. I'll probably lurk this thread for a while to see what I can learn on my own.
Lately, I've seen many lists playing Sensei's Divining Top either maindeck or in the sideboard. I assume they're useful against discard spells and can be used as pseudo Brainstorm with fetchlands. Does anyone knows when they should be sideboarded in, how to use them and how well they perform?
I doubt SDT is better than Confidant against discardQuote:
Originally Posted by Varal
I have found that Dark Confidant is simply not good like it used to be. The "slow" decks or the midrange discard decks put on way too much pressure for Bobby to be good, and cards like Liliana of the Veil and Jace are huge problems for the Bob strategy.
I think it's interesting that many people on this thread are still on "Prosak Storm." Ad Nauseam is pretty poor in this deck (Prosak has even said that he usually only casts it once per tournament), and Grim Tutor is still a great tutor that everyone seems to have forgotten about. Try playing Empty the Warrens over Ad Nauseam and add 2 Grim Tutor to the deck. You will win many more games, and the deck will have more options and consistency.
It comes in against the decks you want ignorant bliss for: hymn to tourachs/liliana out of jund or other decks with a lot of discard but not much else. Float your tutor on top and play out all artifact mana until you can go get past in flames. They work ok, but not great. Haven't been immensely satisfied with either top, ignorant bliss, or dark confidant. You can get away with smart cantripping in these matchups though and I consider these cards a luxury. Confidant sucks against jund, but pretty decent against control where applicableQuote:
Originally Posted by Varal
Number one thing I sideboard out is Ad Nauseam and the Chrome Mox. Course no one agrees with the list I run so I'll continue to not contribute.
That's a different deck. There doesn't seem to be a thread for it on the source, but on the storm boards it's called "Grinding Station". It's an awesome, underplayed deck that I think could be every bit as good as ANT and harkens back to old Iggy Pop decks. The only list I've found on The Source is a pimp thread post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post711134Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
If you're not all-in on making Ad Nauseam the best it can be, I agree it makes sense to cut it. But if you do, you want to play a shit tonne of Past in Flames and Tendrils and your U opponents are just kinda stuck wondering what to do.
I'Ve found an old tournament Report from April '12 by the German inventor. I know the Deck changed over the Time (Running a few infernals main as i remember), but its Good to get an idea of the Artist formaly known as Land-go-Tendrils:
http://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2...nding-station/
By the Way: if you can't afford a grim Tutor but want the Luxors of anothe Business-spell an Empty the warrens Main is the best Alternative in my opinion :)
There is a thread on the source:Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...inding-Station
The thread is a bit old and the decklists may be outdated, but it links to some interessting articles from Jona and gives a good insight on how to play the deck.
Latest decklist from Jona I found on stormboards is this one from January 2013:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
4 Tendrils of Agony
//Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Dread of Night
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
The deck plays nicely and the cards you to build this will be under 5 bucks if you already own some standard ANT list. I also has a very good matchup against RUG Delver :-) Something other storm lists do not offer :-)
Haven't played it a lot lately because I seem to be to dumb to play the 8-7 playstyle vs Hymns and Lilianas :-/
Maybe I am just to unexperienced with the deck.
Some guy from germany went like 12:2 in GP Strasbourg with Grinding Station, but lost 3 times in row afterwards...
Thanks for the info!
What is the ideal manabase for a regular version of this deck (4/4/4/4 or 4/4/4/2 + grim + therapy)
The last two highly-placed decks at SCG both ran 2 gemstone mines, but some people on here bemoan that.
I think there is too much attrition in this deck to run Gemstone Mines. They tend to run out a lot, and I'm not really sure why you need them.
My manabase:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
5 Blue Fetchlands
SB
1 Tropical Island
I used to run a Bloodstained Mire over the 5th blue fetch, but the 5th blue fetch makes my SB Trop more consistent since I am usually boarding out 1 Island in the matchups where I want the green. Bayou is 10x worse than Trop, and it's really not needed.
For me:
Fixed: 12
4 Polluted Delta
4 other Fetch (depending on sb etc, at least 3 blue)
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
Options: 3-4 of the following
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands/ 2nd Volcanic (don't like it without wishes)
1 Trop/Bayou (To save a SB slot, playing the other one in the board as you want 2 green duals if boarding decays versus decks like MUD/Mav)
2nd Island (I see no need for it, but it's not bad)
9th & 10th fetch (more shuffle effects is always solid)
1 Karakas (Don't like it without chants main)
I play:
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sea
1 Volc
1 Trop
4 Delta
4 Misty
1 Catacombs
(Bayou SB)
I really don't understand why you need 2 green duals when you are fetching for the green the turn you use it if you fear Wasteland against something like Maverick. Maindeck Trop is a huge liability against any Wasteland deck, and I would never want a maindeck land that is strictly worse than a basic Island game 1. I have never had an issue with only running 1 Trop SB as my green source.
You want two green sources if you're also boarding xantid swarms generally speaking because merfolk packs wasteland and xantid swarm is literally the best card in our 75 against them. I play a tropical island maindeck over basic island just to save sideboard space. The ability to have it wastelanded rarely comes up and I'm willing to lose a handful of percentage points against wasteland decks by getting an additional sideboard slot. Right now I'm experimenting with bayou maindeck as well over the lone gemstone mine; it has negatively affected my lines of play one game thus far. I might move it to the sideboard and put a 3rd u. sea or fetchland in its place, but time will tell.
Grinding station is an iffy choice currently because of all the discard in the meta. They will likely discard and eat your tendrils with DRS, forcing you to find another tendrils or enough mana to go tutor chain into tendrils or tutor into tutor into PiF. I love grinding station a lot, but I don't like it in the current metagame over other storm decks that are more resilient to discard and deathrite shaman.
As for a really good RUG delver matchup, most storm decks are capable of beating RUG delver. It all comes down to the storm pilot. Can't win them all but at the same time if you know how to play against RUG the matchup becomes significantly better if not in your favor. It's just merfolk splashing green and red, at least to me. It runs a lot of the same cards as merfolk and if you know how to play around said cards, you can generally win with ease at least that's what I've found.
Honestly, Doomsday seems to be the best route to victory imho. I know that isn't what a lot of aggressive storm players wanna hear but its the truth. Also, this can be used as an argument supporting the role of red's inclusion; specifically speaking, Burning Wish.
-ABC
Doomsday the best win condition in ANT? Are you trolling? It requires Sensei's Divining Top, which is weak with Cabal Ritual, and Infernal Tutor + LED is not quite the best way to find Doomsday. Not to mention that the draw spell & DD aren't too synergentic with AdN. I have played hybrid lists before, but I found them to be inferior to either DDFT or ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
If you meant to state DDFT is a better deck than ANT, that is a completely different discussion. For most people it is also fairly fruitless as they don't want to invest the required time to become proficient with DDFT, which is a much harder deck to pilot than ANT is. I don't think their power level in the current meta is that far apart, but if you believe so why not convince us with arguments?
Past in Flames combo is very good against discard decks. The "Grinding Station" list with 4 Tendrils is really strange... But I can say that the concept of going for Past in Flames over Ad Nauseam is better against both discard decks and RUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
1 Big diffrence:
- Past in Flames can be hated very easy with any gy hate even like shaman/RIP etc..
- AdN can't be hated so easy only aggresive play can change it value.
I'm just speaking from experience that when I had Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames in my deck, I almost never used Ad Nauseam. I don't think it's a debate between Past in Flames and AN; I think it's a debate between Empty the Warrens and AN. Also, it is very easy to "hate" o AN, since all your opponent has to deal is deal you damage quickly... Shaman isn't a big issue for Past in Flames if you play well. I think PiF is easily the best combo engine if you're willing to think a little harder instead of autopilot an AN flip. This deck has really evolved into a PiF combo deck, and I think there is a debate to be had about whether or not Empty the Warrens or AN is a better secondary engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal