Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by princeofperasia

I've been curious about Keranos though. Perhaps it could help if you manage to find 5 mana. I've seen some people, like ThoSha and Truckis, play a singleton in the board. How has it been working for you? Do you bring it in vs DnT?

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I talked about it before a few pages back, but only got miserable answers comparing it to Razormane Masticore and the 3rd Entreat.
As i wrote, i like it alot vs decks that lead to grindy games, where i need a house that shoots Planeswalker and creatures EVERY turn if you want to.
It helps alot vs Shardless BUG and the mirror, where i never really liked the 3rd Entreat and i haven't looked back since i swapped the SB Entreat for Keranos.
Recently i also found it is reasonable to bring him in against Death and Taxes, because you don't need much setup to crush them after a boardwipe.

One thing you should do if you play Keranos is to add a basic Mountain somewhere in your 75, as you really need to rely on red.
Switching a Volc for a Mountain works fine for me, as it also allows me to play 4 Blasts postboard. I really recommend it.

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Originally Posted by klaus

4 MD CBs more often than not seemed overkill to me, since its performance is meh especially when drawing multiples against Vial.dec or archetypes with few CMC1 spells (don't get me wrong CB is still awesome) - hence, I'm really happy with the 3/1 split.
In MUs you want CB (or RiP), you want it NOW, not next turn. I've had my fair share of E.T. SBs and was NEVER happy about its card disadvantage aspect. If you want more consistency and see your SB cards more frequently, add more of the same hate spell or take Einherjer's route and go with 4 Ponders. I'm not on the 4 Ponders train (2 is the perfect number for me), but I'd much rather bump them up to the full playset before considering E. T.

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Let me first agree on some of your points: Yes, I'm on the 2 Ponder train like you, and I have no intention to get off this train.

As to the E.T. vs 4th CB. In MU you want CB, a lot of them are combos. However, you don't always want to expose yourself when you play CB too early. Hence, I don't see the card disadvantage as an issue, because you are not going to want to play CB or E.T. at that point anyway.

The only time I would want to play CB and the card disadvantage can be an issue is the loam match-up. Even then, E.T.'s so-called card disadvantage can be a plus, if you already have CB in play and no Top. Being able to instant search the correct CMC in respond to the CB flip trigger is something you can be happy about.

Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?

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First of all, against tribal decks, Ein's list (the one with Ponders) will do better. Against Goblins, you have to immediately Entreat after a Terminus/Verdict. You cannot allow Goblins too many turns to "rebuild" after a mass removal. Both decks can have trappy/tricky SB: I have seen TNN, Standstill, and Flusterstorm from Merfolk; Thalia, Labyrinth, and Anarchy from Goblin. Some Vial deck players would activate-vial as a fake move, I guess they're trying to make you draw Top.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

Hi, i am fairly new to playing miracles. Just realized my meta has a few merfolk and goblins decks. I always felt swarmed by their creatures even after plows and terminus. Is there any strategy when it comes to approaching such matchups?

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They're hard matchups for sure since your counters are soft to Cavern of Souls. Focus on stopping Aether Vial and survive long enough to start generating card advantage through Jace or set up an entreat that can swing the board state in your favor. Merfolk is definitely the easier of the two though since you have access to REB and their creatures are generally lords whereas Goblins tend to generate CA (ringleader/matron/etc.) making it more difficult.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

I went 6-3-1 at SCG NJ

Shardless 2-1
RUG 1-1-1
RUG 2-0
MUD 2-1
UWR 1-2
Team America 0-2
Aggro Loam 2-1
Deathblade 2-1
Reanimator 2-0
Dredge 0-2

My first RUG opponent was super nice and we chatted too much. UWR opponent won the whole thing - I probably played too loose after he told me he didn't play much legacy and punted game 1 to me. Vs BUG I whiffed on a sweeper G1 and G2 I kept an awful hand and was punished. Dredge wasn't close but I still feel it is a winnable matchup.

In general I think I played well, got lucky a few times (esp R1) but sideboarded terribly especially vs the Delver decks. I also lost to RUG and UWR in the trial the night before. At times I think I play around everything (Daze, Stifle, Pierce, Waste) to my detriment. RUG feels fine because RIP is so powerful against them and Counterbalance locks out all of their threats. I lost to UWR because a fast Delver was able to get me low enough that I had to burn removal on Batterskull for multiple turns, then True-Name came down. I also lost to the triple True-Name draw with Force backup.

I know the conventional wisdom is to take out all your Forces vs Delver, but it feels like in those early turns having a free counterspell is quite good. Force plays around Pierce/Daze more effectively than anything outside of Flusterstorm and doesn't require awkward fetching like REB. I also like being able to set up Counterbalance (they will often let this resolve if ahead on board) and then float a Force to push through a Terminus; this is often a 4-for-1 that ends the game on the spot.

Is Jace good vs UWR when they bring in REB? I suppose if the answer is no then Force is bad for the same reason. Is Entreat good? I've shaved those cards in G2/G3 then found it difficult to put a game away once I've stabilized the board. Meddling Mage is annoying as well.

BUG is completely different as all of their threats get hit by Swords, Deathrite is a slow clock that doesn't require an immediate answer, and their real haymakers are non-creature spells (Library, Null Rod/Needle, Liliana to an extent). I find that I want some number of Forces for these cards too. Maybe keeping in 2x Force here is acceptable as you won't get blown out by REB.

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Congrats on your finish! Seems like you won the tough matchups and lost the easy ones unfortunately. I would absolutely board out all 4 FOWs against any of the delver lists. They don't really have any cards that I would want to 1-for-2 myself, especially when our sideboard is so strong. Against UWR and RUG, your main goal is surviving long enough to safely resolve CounterTop. This obviously requires playing around their soft counters or baiting them out by playing 1-for-1 removal into pierces and dazes. Once you have CounterTop online, you have all the time in the world to dig for your win-con so I usually do shave 1 Entreat and 1 Jace. BUG delver, on the other hand, only plays Daze so you can easily play around that knowledge and you should actually bring in the 3rd Entreat. Based on this list from Schönegger I sideboard:

UWR Delver
-4 FOW
-1 Jace
-1 Entreat
+1 Clique
+2 Blast (if you're playing a basic Mountain, then bring in more)
+1 Disenchant
+2 EE
(If you don't think they bring in most of their Meddling Mages then -2 Snares, +2 Fluster)

RUG Delver
-4 FOW
-1 Jace
-1 Entreat
-2 Snare
+2 RIP
+2 EE
+2 Clique
+2 Fluster

BUG Delver
-4 FOW
-3 Counterbalance
+2 EE
+1 Disenchant
+1 Entreat
+1 Counterspell
+X Clique (if they play a lot of Lilianas)
+X Fluster (If they don't play a lot of Lilianas)
+X Blasts (If there's TNN or Jace)

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Originally Posted by Mackan

@Keranos
I started playing him right after BOM in the slot where I played Supreme Verdict earlier. My reasoning was that I needed more against Shardless BUG and having a continous removal/planeswalker-killer/draw-engine on board they can't ever get rid of was appealing. I am convinced that Keranos is the perfect answer to their strategy but im not sure if the 5-mana pricetag is worth it outside that matchup (and therefor if it's worth it in the sideboard at all). I think it's unreliable versus decks with Rishadan Port (but not wasteland) and to slow versus elves. It's nice in the mirror, against delver and to diversify my threats versus random hate. I also like that it can't be Spell Pierced. I am unsure about the number of bombs/wincons we need in the 75. My current configuration is 2 clique, 4 jace, 2 entreat main and 1 keranos, 2 stoneforge, 1 batterskull in the side. My approach to sideboarding is that I want cheap and efficient answers (i.e needle, reb, flusterstorm, wear/tear) or high-impact cards that fill a certain funcion my maindeck does not (i.e Keranos, Batterskull) or both (rest in peace, grafdigger's cage) and I haven't played Keranos enough to see if I can "afford" the value over tempo switch from Supreme Verdict versus the other decks where Verdict is mvp. More discard in the meta also requires more bombs over answers but right now Im happy with this number (no snapcasters, 4 top, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder).
If you play Venser I recommend trying out Keranos instead. I played both in the daily yesterday but I think that it's to much.

/Marcus (Truckis)

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Originally Posted by ThoSha

I talked about it before a few pages back, but only got miserable answers comparing it to Razormane Masticore and the 3rd Entreat.
As i wrote, i like it alot vs decks that lead to grindy games, where i need a house that shoots Planeswalker and creatures EVERY turn if you want to.
It helps alot vs Shardless BUG and the mirror, where i never really liked the 3rd Entreat and i haven't looked back since i swapped the SB Entreat for Keranos.
Recently i also found it is reasonable to bring him in against Death and Taxes, because you don't need much setup to crush them after a boardwipe.

One thing you should do if you play Keranos is to add a basic Mountain somewhere in your 75, as you really need to rely on red.
Switching a Volc for a Mountain works fine for me, as it also allows me to play 4 Blasts postboard. I really recommend it.

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Thanks for your replies ThoSha and Marcus! I think I'll test out a Keranos, as well as switching a Volcanic to a Mountain. I'm sure Einherjer will show up and tell me that's a terrible idea, but I'm curious how the god plays out :tongue:.

This is off-topic from everything else that's been discussed, but I've been wanting to play a third graveyard hate card (I play two RIP currently). While normal convention dictate that I should play a Relic in the third spot, I've been wondering if a Surgical Extraction would have any merit in the list especially alongside 3 Snapcaster Mages. While it's not as powerful against Dredge, it can still severely slow them down by hitting Narcomoeba or Ichorid. It's also a bit more flexible as you can justify bringing in Surgical against any Combo matchup and maybe against the mirror (to hit FOW or Jace etc.). Obviously it's terrible against any fair match though...

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Originally Posted by princeofperasia

Once you have CounterTop online, you have all the time in the world to dig for your win-con so I usually do shave 1 Entreat and 1 Jace. BUG delver, on the other hand, only plays Daze so you can easily play around that knowledge and you should actually bring in the 3rd Entreat.

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I've always preferred Entreat in the American MU over the BUG MU actually. Sure American has more soft counters, but BUG is more likely to be boarding stuff like Envelop, Clique, and Flusterstorm which I think are harder to play around. If you can play around Pierce then it shouldn't be hard to resolve Entreat against American and even two Angels can usually race any board they have since they have no good way of removing them. BUG Delver has more tools for stopping Entreat and more ways of making non-lethal Entreats obsolete with Abrupt Decay and Liliana.

My plan involves boarding in the third Entreat for American Delver and sticking with the two MD Entreats against BUG Delver. I could be wrong about the third Entreat against American, perhaps its better to leave in the Counterspell instead, but I'm certain that going down to one is wrong.

Also, as a side note, I used to bring in Flusterstorms against BUG Delver, but since Miracles has become more popular, most BUG lists are running specific Miracle hate like Clique and Envelop. As a result, I think REB (over Flusterstorm) is usually correct against the average BUG Delver list now.

Some even play 1 Jace in their sideboard, but Clique is indeed very common. So I also side in 2 out of 3 blasts ^^!

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I've always preferred Entreat in the American MU over the BUG MU actually. Sure American has more soft counters, but BUG is more likely to be boarding stuff like Envelop, Clique, and Flusterstorm which I think are harder to play around. If you can play around Pierce then it shouldn't be hard to resolve Entreat against American and even two Angels can usually race any board they have since they have no good way of removing them. BUG Delver has more tools for stopping Entreat and more ways of making non-lethal Entreats obsolete with Abrupt Decay and Liliana.

My plan involves boarding in the third Entreat for American Delver and sticking with the two MD Entreats against BUG Delver. I could be wrong about the third Entreat against American, perhaps its better to leave in the Counterspell instead, but I'm certain that going down to one is wrong.

Also, as a side note, I used to bring in Flusterstorms against BUG Delver, but since Miracles has become more popular, most BUG lists are running specific Miracle hate like Clique and Envelop. As a result, I think REB (over Flusterstorm) is usually correct against the average BUG Delver list now.

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Alright I can see the reasoning for not wanting to bring in the 3rd Entreat against BUG and that might be the better sideboard plan than what I had, but I have a hard time seeing the justification in bringing in the 3rd Entreat against UWR when they play even more countermagic than BUG will have. UWR will have something like 4 Daze, 3-4 FoW, 3-4 Pierces, 2 Flusterstorms which is still a lot more to play around than BUG's 4 Daze, 3-4 FoW, 1 Clique, 1-2 Pierces (or flusters). I haven't seen too many BUG lists that play Envelop in the board.

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Originally Posted by princeofperasia

Alright I can see the reasoning for not wanting to bring in the 3rd Entreat against BUG and that might be the better sideboard plan than what I had, but I have a hard time seeing the justification in bringing in the 3rd Entreat against UWR when they play even more countermagic than BUG will have.

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Maybe that's right, but remember that American has virtually no way to remove an Angel token. While you may have to play around more counter magic, it's fine to Entreat for only two and that will probably be enough. Against BUG, if you Entreat for less than lethal, you can likely expect an Angel or two to get eaten by Abrupt Decay or Liliana. Also, Counterbalance is very reliable against American and once it's online their Pierces become pretty awful. That said, I've definitely thought about having a Counterspell or Pithing Needle over the third Entreat but Entreat is by no means a bad card against American.

Some great, collaborative discussion in this thread lately. Thanks to all for that.

My issue with going to 3 Entreat, 4 Terminus against Delver decks is that you can open with so many bad hands. e.g. Terminus, Entreat, Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Fetch, Tundra, Plains...is this a keep? Brainstorm says yes, but once they G. Probe you they will Force your Brainstorm and likely win. Resolving a Jace to set up Terminus/Entreat is also very very difficult during the stage of the game when it is most critical.

Turns 1-3 are so critical in the UWR and RUG matchups and Probe gives them an even greater edge. Sequencing your lands, fetches, and spells while weighing the tradeoff of life loss vs playing around conditional counters are essential. (Personally, I also need to get better at recognizing when jamming a Swords into Daze might be correct as a pure tempo play while I set up my mana.) For these reasons, I have thought about reducing the average CMC of the deck in the post-board games against Delver/Wasteland strategies. Venser, Jace, Entreat all get trimmed or cut (this is easier to do if you have won G1). I'm also thinking of going to 3 Counterbalance post-board against RUG and UWR. They are a huge part of your gameplan but you'd rather have removal in the earlier turns of the game. Then find and resolve a Counterbalance mid-game and win.

On grave hate, I have been thinking of Grafdigger's Cage as the third piece like I believe Joe mentioned a few pages back, especially since I have cut EE from the sideboard and slightly weakened the elves matchup. Though I may be overreacting after getting smashed by Dredge.

@Third entreat
I haven't been playing the third entreat since I moved to sideboard SFM-package but when I did I sided it in versus Delver-decks with black rather than red. The slower clock your opponent has the better it becomes... Against RUG-delver for example Im happy playing 2 and versus jund/team america I want my third for sure.

@Patriot sideboarding
I think you all should consider siding CB out versus Patriot. I wrote about that earlier but can't seem to find the post :(
I remove 4 fow 4 cb 1 jace for blasts, wear/tear, sfm-package and 2 flexslots.

@new tech!
Im going to play without the stoneforge package in this daily and instead trying to push the durdliest of durdle; Future Sight.
Not only is this totally ridiculous with top (and slow as molasses, sure) it's also a way to activate Keranos with only cb/jace/venser/clique. I'll write a summary after im done.

Talking about Tech.. I am currently testing 2 Personal Tutors in the main for more consistent miracles. I also added one Devastation Tide in the side, i'll let you guys know how it worked out.

Edit: It was really bad. Might be good as a 1of tough.

It's called "tech" now, is it? I would have bet ideas like this were called something else. Hmm.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

It's called "tech" now, is it? I would have bet ideas like this were called something else. Hmm.

Greetings

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At least keranos has some utility. But personal tutor?

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Originally Posted by amalek0

At least keranos has some utility. But personal tutor?

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I' m not an arse licker but I can't see if there is still room for improvement in the list of this deck.
Keranos cost 5 mana and I think is a lot for a winning condition that you have to play it as a sorcery speed( yes you cant miracle eot like entreat).
Jace is way better than the god. We don't need extra removal our deck is well equipped to deal with that.

Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?

My personal opinion


in order:

12 posts 10/90
goblins 30/70
Sneak & show 40/60
Merfolk 40/60
Jund 45/55
Bug delver(with nemesis and confidants) 50/50
Death and Taxes(with mangara) 50/50
Uwr Delver 55/45


I've found pretty much all other match ups highly favorable my a mile

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Originally Posted by janluis1

Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?

My personal opinion


in order:

12 posts 10/90 - That even seems optimistic
goblins 30/70 - This becomes 70/30 if you have moat and etutor in your SB
Sneak & show 40/60 - I think its probably closer to 50/50, and maybe even favored for the the "cheater versions" with MD blasts
Merfolk 40/60 - Id say this is closer to 50/50 normally, again Moat and Etutor make it more like 60/40
Jund 45/55 - I think its more like 60/40, I always feel like jund is a good matchup for me
Bug delver(with nemesis and confidants) 50/50 - Depends how devoted their SB is to beating miracles, but 50/50 seems about the average. It can be worse.
Death and Taxes(with mangara) 50/50 - Most builds forgo mangara luckily, the typical D&T lists are probably more like 55/45, Brimaz+karakas is still really scary though
Uwr Delver 55/45


I've found pretty much all other match ups highly favorable my a mile

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I added in my comments, but otherwise I agree. Those are definitely the harder matchups. Some other tougher ones are Shardless bug (50/50) and Scapewish (55/45). I have also found Grixis/BURg delver with Pyromancer, Therapys and stifles to be rough.

I have noticed SB blood moon, moat, and humility in conjuncture with 1-2 Etutor make all of those matchups (excpet D&T and delver) much better. If the meta ever shifts to include more of those decks, and less things like delver or D&T where you just need value and consistency, the Etutor package might be worth including again.

The Sneak & Show matchup varies a lot depending on your build. If you play the legend build with Venser and 2 Karakas, it's a pretty positive matchup in my experience. I wouldn't call it negative with any build really, I would call it an even match at worst.

12post is obviously the worst matchup, but it can be improved with extra Pithing Needles and aggressive mulligans. Tons of counter magic with a quick Entreat or Clique + Karakas is your only hope really.

In other news, I took Ein's maindeck -1 fetch +1 Karakas to the local on Wednesday. I went 3-0-1 and split 1st/2nd (no playoffs, just swiss with top4 payout), my matchups were-
Rw Painter 1-1-1
Ub Reanimator 2-1
5 color Maverick 2-0
Deathblade 2-1

The list feels extremely solid and consistent. I never had a problem digging for answers and wincons, and I assembled CB Top very easily. I've found the extra Ponders to make CB more reliable without a Top online, and they make it easier to find key sideboard cards. If I can make it out to SCG Providence I will definitely be on Miracles.

12 Post is nearly unwinnable and Goblins is extremely difficult. Merfolk and Burn are both winnable but very much a pain and matchups that I'd rather not see. I feel like just about anything else is even or favorable.

Burn seems fine... we have CB and PoP isn't very good vs. us.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

Burn seems fine... we have CB and PoP isn't very good vs. us.

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Against decks like Storm, we have Counterbalance and it wrecks them, but in addition we can easily beat an all-in combo deck with FoW, Flusterstorm, Counterspell, etc. Against Burn, if you don't have Counterbalance and Top then you can't realistically survive for very long only 1-for-1ing them.

If we have Counterbalance and they don't have a Vexing Shusher then we are golden. If we don't have a Counterbalance, we are probably dead. If we have a Counterbalance and they have a Shusher then we are only dead if we can't find removal.

So, just for fun... I did some math. On average, Burn's cards deal ~2.2 damage (assuming things like Goblin Guide only hits once, PoP only hits for 3, and Vortex only hits us twice, etc). Without Counterbalance + Top, Miracles has only about a 23% chance of stopping one of their cards (4 FoW, 2 Pierce, 1 Counterspell, 1 Snapcaster, and 4 Counterbalance (assuming that each Counterbalance blind flips an average of 1.5 times in a game, which is likely generous). Without interaction, it will take Burn an average of 9 cards to kill us. At 10 cards each, we should be able to stop ~2.3 of their cards. That means that at around 12 cards each we should be dead, so around turn 4 or 5.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

The Sneak & Show matchup varies a lot depending on your build. If you play the legend build with Venser and 2 Karakas, it's a pretty positive matchup in my experience. I wouldn't call it negative with any build really, I would call it an even match at worst.

12post is obviously the worst matchup, but it can be improved with extra Pithing Needles and aggressive mulligans. Tons of counter magic with a quick Entreat or Clique + Karakas is your only hope really.

In other news, I took Ein's maindeck -1 fetch +1 Karakas to the local on Wednesday. I went 3-0-1 and split 1st/2nd (no playoffs, just swiss with top4 payout), my matchups were-
Rw Painter 1-1-1
Ub Reanimator 2-1
5 color Maverick 2-0
Deathblade 2-1

The list feels extremely solid and consistent. I never had a problem digging for answers and wincons, and I assembled CB Top very easily. I've found the extra Ponders to make CB more reliable without a Top online, and they make it easier to find key sideboard cards. If I can make it out to SCG Providence I will definitely be on Miracles.

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I agree with sneak and show matchup depends on the build. I' m using philipp's new list and I don't regret it. I'd rather have a weak show and tell match up if this will allow me to improve all the others.

I found shardless bug matchup in our favour. Still this depends on their list. I've tested against the heavy discard version without FOW maindeck.
Goblin is not unwinnable is just very tough. You "just" need to find plenty of terminus and you need to play against a bad player( lol)

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Originally Posted by janluis1

Changing topic what do you think are miracles hard match ups?

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My opinion:

12-Post - Very little experience with this, but it seems miserable. If you run Blood Moon and Humility (BBD build) it becomes heavily unfavorable rather than miserable. If you're running a build with multiple Vensers and Karakas (like oarsman), you may be able to lock them out before getting anything going. If you're playing Einherjer's version, you probably have no options other than a quick Entreat and hoping they stumble on mana development. Last year, I was on a Stoneforge hybrid list that ran Humility, and I managed to beat 12-Post in my only encounter by tutoring up a Sword of Feast and Famine, slamming down a Humility, suiting it up to a creature, and then aggressively countering all their Crop Rotations and Repeals, but you're in the awkward position of having to play the tempo game in this match.
Goblins - Slightly unfavorable to even. I think BBD and Einherjer's builds are better suited than most here.
Sneak & Show - Even to slightly favorable. oarsman's build is best here.
Merfolk - Other than 12-Post, this is the matchup I most dread facing. I'd say we're 20-30% to win a match against an opponent of comparable skill.
Jund - Slightly unfavorable to even (40-55%). Matchup is pretty much about flipping Angels before Liliana nukes all our lands, with the caveat that Bob can simply wreck you if you leave it unchecked. This is one of the matchups where I really would like to have 4 Swords to Plowshares.
BUG Delver - I consider this a favorable matchup (60%), but I consider Shardless BUG to be an unfavorable matchup (30-40%).
Death and Taxes - I think we're favored here, although this is mostly based on my experience with Einherjer's list, which runs 4 Swords, 2 Snapcaster, and 2 Engineered Explosives.
UWR Delver - Slightly favorable. The difficult games I've encountered usually come down to 1) early Pithing Needle on Top completely wrecking our card quality or 2) a Gitaxian Probe followed by Meddling Mage essentially shutting down mutiple spells in our hand.

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

My opinion:

12-Post - Very little experience with this, but it seems miserable. If you run Blood Moon and Humility (BBD build) it becomes heavily unfavorable rather than miserable. If you're running a build with multiple Vensers and Karakas (like oarsman), you may be able to lock them out before getting anything going. If you're playing Einherjer's version, you probably have no options other than a quick Entreat and hoping they stumble on mana development. Last year, I was on a Stoneforge hybrid list that ran Humility, and I managed to beat 12-Post in my only encounter by tutoring up a Sword of Feast and Famine, slamming down a Humility, suiting it up to a creature, and then aggressively countering all their Crop Rotations and Repeals, but you're in the awkward position of having to play the tempo game in this match.
Goblins - Slightly unfavorable to even. I think BBD and Einherjer's builds are better suited than most here.
Sneak & Show - Even to slightly favorable. oarsman's build is best here.
Merfolk - Other than 12-Post, this is the matchup I most dread facing. I'd say we're 20-30% to win a match against an opponent of comparable skill.
Jund - Slightly unfavorable to even (40-55%). Matchup is pretty much about flipping Angels before Liliana nukes all our lands, with the caveat that Bob can simply wreck you if you leave it unchecked. This is one of the matchups where I really would like to have 4 Swords to Plowshares.
BUG Delver - I consider this a favorable matchup (60%), but I consider Shardless BUG to be an unfavorable matchup (30-40%).
Death and Taxes - I think we're favored here, although this is mostly based on my experience with Einherjer's list, which runs 4 Swords, 2 Snapcaster, and 2 Engineered Explosives.
UWR Delver - Slightly favorable. The difficult games I've encountered usually come down to 1) early Pithing Needle on Top completely wrecking our card quality or 2) a Gitaxian Probe followed by Meddling Mage essentially shutting down mutiple spells in our hand.

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I tested several games against merfolk and is not that bad. I was about 5 won and 5 lost MD against a good player. Perhaps depends on their build.
Their biggest threats are muta and vial. If you happen to resolve a terminus and stick a jace on the batter field you basically got it.
About shard less Bug did't find that match up really hard after testing they just have 2 threats to handle ancestral vision and jace.
Against UWR delver: I was playing UWR delver before switching to miracles(bored to face miracles, junds, painters and bug delver all the time), so I know decently well how this matchup is presented on both sides.
Uwr delver to win has to stick a turn 1 delver that flips on turn 2, playing one threat a time and counter turn 1 top. If this happens well miracle player will be tempoed out most of the time.
I disagree here in playing out daze and spell pierce the first turns. I'd suggest to adopt paco's strategy and don't care so much about daze and spell pierce(I'd rather solve an early terminus than an early counterbalance). Batterskull is a late game threat. Counter it, is the only way they can win late game. After Sb they don't have much.They will bring meddling on terminus, thats about it. You will just use your pyroblasts on them.

Hope this helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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I love the pierces. Sometimes players will not expect those and you just use it to counter hard to deal threat(HYMM, Planeswalkers, VIal, Batterskull ecc)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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I am still on my sort of Ein-Oarsman hyrbid list of 2 ponder, 2 snap, 2 clique, 1 venser/council's judgement, and I like it very much. I certainly see the merit of 4 ponders, but if I were cutting pierces I would want some good way to deal with lily and annoying artifacts/enchantments. Clique does half of that. EE or councils judgement (out next weekend) do both less efficiently. I would recommend some combination of those cards. I have run EE MD before, and it was actually really good.

I think MD REB would be good, but I don't think the trade off having to dilute your manabase with a basic mountain is worth it. If you don't mind that cost, go for it.

With Philipp's list i want to cut the third Jace for a 1x Council Judgement is that dumb?

Jace is a power house in this deck, and 3 is the perfect # for this deck.perhaps 3 ponder and squeeze in the council judgement.

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Originally Posted by janluis1

With Philipp's list i want to cut the third Jace for a 1x Council Judgement is that dumb?

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Jace is our best card in the deck while Council is just a one-for-one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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I agree with Pierce being the weakest card. Try switching them out for Spell Snares and see how you like them. I think you're underestimating how much of the meta they actually hit. They're also amazing at stabilizing the board when you're on the draw. If your meta is blue enough that you want maindeck blasts then I would advocate for switching a volcanic into a mountain. I disagree with Snappy and FOW being the next weakest cards. I feel like the deck is really built around snapcaster mage; he just offers so much utility and value to be cut down. FOW is obviously one of the first cards we always cut against fair decks, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't play 4 in the main. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you played the mirror or anything unfair by shaving a force.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So, I've found that the weakest cards in the Ponder build seem to be the 2 Spell Pierce, followed closely by the 3rd Snappy and the 4th Force. At this point the only cards I feel like moving are the 2 Spell Pierce, and I don't feel like I want any more Counterspell or Counterbalance in the 75. So my question is, for a big tournament, would you feel more comfortable with 2 REBs in the main? I'm not the biggest fan of Snare since it doesn't hit most of our troublesome cards except for Bob and Sylvan Library. So I'm basically choosing between Pierce and REB at this point, or possibly just add in a Vendilion and an extra land? I mean, when Pierce is good it's GOOD. But when it's bad it's trash, and I don't really like how swingy it can be since our games tend to go long.

Thoughts?

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2 Pierces are necessarily evil, I wouldn't change it. If anything, you should add a Clique if you're on the 2-Ponder list. Yes, I sometimes find Snappy to be mediocre, wishing it was a Clique. If anything, it has to be that 3rd Snappy.

I'm gonna test that Personal Tutor, replacing 3rd Entreat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by janluis1

I tested several games against merfolk and is not that bad. I was about 5 won and 5 lost MD against a good player. Perhaps depends on their build.
Their biggest threats are muta and vial. If you happen to resolve a terminus and stick a jace on the batter field you basically got it.
About shard less Bug did't find that match up really hard after testing they just have 2 threats to handle ancestral vision and jace.
Against UWR delver: I was playing UWR delver before switching to miracles(bored to face miracles, junds, painters and bug delver all the time), so I know decently well how this matchup is presented on both sides.
Uwr delver to win has to stick a turn 1 delver that flips on turn 2, playing one threat a time and counter turn 1 top. If this happens well miracle player will be tempoed out most of the time.
I disagree here in playing out daze and spell pierce the first turns. I'd suggest to adopt paco's strategy and don't care so much about daze and spell pierce(I'd rather solve an early terminus than an early counterbalance). Batterskull is a late game threat. Counter it, is the only way they can win late game. After Sb they don't have much.They will bring meddling on terminus, thats about it. You will just use your pyroblasts on them.

Hope this helps

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I think for shardless, besides jace and visions, they have discard and liliana to back it up as well, making it a double whammy. I playtested against it around 5 times and only won once, maybe i am not that well versed in the deck yet haha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twndomn

2 Pierces are necessarily evil, I wouldn't change it. If anything, you should add a Clique if you're on the 2-Ponder list. Yes, I sometimes find Snappy to be mediocre, wishing it was a Clique. If anything, it has to be that 3rd Snappy.

I'm gonna test that Personal Tutor, replacing 3rd Entreat.

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Really? The latest Bazaar of Moxen top 8 says otherwise, and I also clearly stated that I'm on the 4 Ponder build.

When I said the 4th Force and 3rd Snappy were the weakest cards besides the 2 Pierce, I didn't mean they are bad or unnecessary. I actually love Snapcaster here since he's so good with Terminus, but I wouldn't be very excited about having him in my opening hand.

Snapcaster is great in Counterspell heavy builds. Philip's plays a total of 3. It's correct, there, to play 3 SCM, imho. Also, it will be great in list with Council, which is a card I'm definitly going to test.

Personal Tutor is something I can't understand. Why are we talking about it? To get a Miracle or a spot removal 1x1 on top? Really?

3 Jace, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Snapmage and 4 Top aren't enough to dig?..

Just to answer a few things that have been brought up.

I am not sure about Keranos any more. I dismissed him. But this might have been to fast, admittedly. I am not yet fond on playing him - but I left my position of not playing him for sure.

Councils Judgement is a very good card. I talked to a lot of people, I listened to a lot of opinions, I thought about it for quite some time. And I don't quite know how to integrate it into my list yet(!). As soon as I know how to do it in the best way I'll let you guys know. But I prefer to wait for as long as I need to figure it out. I'd rather update my list once, which should be built as well as I can do it - rather than update it every week or something. So it'll probably take a little while.

Personal Tutor is just bad.

For those interested - I'll post a pic of my newest altered Miracle cards somewhen this week :)

Greetings

Some number of Council's Judgements has to be correct, probably one main and one in the board. With how fair things have been lately, it might be time to move the fourth FoW to the board again.

Played in a small 1k over the weekend (40 something players with 6 rounds swiss into a top 8) with Philip's list plus some quirks since it was a small event:

3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels

SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Wear/Tear
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Keranos
SB: 1 Pithing Needle


Changes from my previous time playing the list at an event with more than 4 rounds:
(in the main) -1 Volcanic Island / +1 Mountain
(in the sideboard) -1 Counterspell -1 Entreat -1 Disenchant / +1 Pyroblast +1 Keranos +1 Wear/Tear

I really wanted to try out Keranos with a dedicated Mountain list. I played him for kicks at my local store and he was hilarious to win with, but now that I was playing a mountain I figured I could easily make the argument for playing Wear/Tear over Disenchant. Also, I correctly assumed there was a lot of blue floating around (I recognized at least 5 miracle players) so I decided to cut a Counterspell in place of a 4th blast.

Round 1: Mirror (2-0) 1-0-0
I knew my opponent was on miracles because he was still filling out his decklist. I wasn't trying to take a peek, but I caught a glimpse of sdt before I realized what the paper in front of him was. I kept a hand with 2 lands, Top, Counterbalance, Terminus, Force, blue card. On the draw, I draw into a second Force and proceed to play play my turn 1 Top after he resolves his Top. Turn 2, he looks on upkeep, plays land and passes. I draw a random blue card and have no choice but to play my Counterbalance. It somehow resolves without a fight. After this it becomes a bit awkward as I don't see any lands while he's got 6 on the board. Luckily my forces manage to counter his Jace and his Keranos. Yes, his maindeck Keranos. When I finally find my lands, he concedes after I resolve Jace. In game 2, I remember playing Clique and then resolving CounterTop shortly after. I win by landing Keranos and ping him to death.

Round 2: Merfolk (0-2) 1-1-0
I die quickly to a True-Name that I can't find an answer to. In game 2 he drew his sideboard and managed to protect his TNN for a long enough time with multiple Swan Songs and Forces. After I finally Terminus, my opponent plays very conservatively by only attacking with one threat at a time and at some point I run out of all my one-for-one answers.

Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-1) 2-1-0
My opponent knows what I'm on, but I don't know what he's on (I should pay better attention to the people I sit next to in previous rounds). Game 1, my opponent plays turn 1 Volcanic Island pass, so I put him on the mirror or RUG Delver. On his turn 2, he plays Brainstorm and misses his land drop. While he's Brainstorm locked, I sculpt together CounterTop. After he draws his two dead cards, opponent plays Ancient Tomb into Show and Tell which makes me really disappointed to be holding a bunch of white cards. After a shuffle, I manage to find an Entreat on top to counter his Show and Tell. On the next turn, he plays Sneak Attack, but I manage to win the counter-war. On the following turn, a second Sneak Attack finds its way onto board and I die shortly after. In game 2, I'm forced to fight over his EOT Clique which really caught me off-guard. After I had enough lands to hold up Counterspell, I managed to set up a CounterTop with a floating Clique/Jace while my Snapcaster beats for the win. Game 3 consisted of blasting his first Show and Tell. On the next turn, I play a Clique which sees FOW, FOW, Spell Pierce, Griselbrand, and Wipe Away. My hand has Counterbalance, Force, Counterspell, Red Blast in hand along with 3 lands on the board. I decided to take Griselbrand after going in the tank because I wasn't sure if I should take a Force instead. He attempts to cast a Sneak Attack he drew, but I win the counterwar as he has to pitch the two blue cards to Forces. Clique ends up hitting him enough times to close it up as it came down to a game of top decks.

Round 4: Deathblade (2-0) 3-1-0
My opponent was on a fairly stock deathblade list and I was under the impression that he knew what I was on based on his poker face. In game 1, I manage to find answers to all his threats while I float Jace until I'm able to play him into an empty board and empty hand. Jace brainstorms a couple turns and gives me enough gas to win the game with an entreat to race his resolved TNN. G2 was fairly similar. I believe my opponent forced my Jace and my Keranos leaving him without much left in hand. I entreat for 3 angels and swing twice which again beat his TNN, but I think my life was low enough where my opponent could have forced a game 3 if he didn't miss a Deathrite activation and if he remembered to add 2 counters to his Jitte during one of his attack steps.

Round 5: Nic-Fit Pod (2-1) 4-1-0
I drop the first game after bricking on 2 lands while my opponent assembles Birthing Pod, Recurring Nightmare, and plenty of mana after taking my Top turn 1 with a blind Cabal Therapy. I knew by turn 4 the game was done as my board consisted of Island, Tundra, and double Counterbalance while my hand had double Entreat and a Terminus. Since I wanted to see what was in his deck, I let most of his cards resolve through my counterbalance triggers. At one point, my opponent plays Green Sun for x=1 which gets countered by a Counterbalance on top of my deck. He then shrugs his shoulders and plays a Baleful Strix which he wouldn't mind in his graveyard since he has Recurring Nightmare active on the board. I shrug my shoulders back and say "ok" which surprises my opponent. I already know what GSZ can fetch at 1, but I'm more curious to see what the better draws are in his list. I eventually see Glen Elendra, Thragtusk, Redcap, and scoop when Grave Titan comes out so I put him on the stock BUG Pod list. I wasn't too familiar with Pod's sideboard, but the only things I could think of were Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Thrun, and Notion Thief. Thus, even though I figured the chances were slim, I ended up playing around Notion Thief for the remainder of the match In game 2, he forces my Keranos (:frown:), but I Wear/Tear his Birthing Pod + Pernicious Deed which leaves him on a board consisting of lands and EE for 2. I think I ended up playing Snapcaster to flashback a second double-wammy Wear/Tear. Angels end up killing him shortly after. In game 3, he kept a hand with forest, 3x Deathrite. I plow the first and Terminus the next 2 that come out. By turn 4 I have Jace out versus his two lands. Soon after, Keranos hits the table and the game was pretty locked up by the time he finds his lands. Again, it felt good to Wear/Tear down his Pernicious Deed + Pithing Needle, but it was a bit overkill by that point anyway.

Round 6: ID into top 8

Top 8: Junk Blade (0-2)
My opponent was on a list with a list of with Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana, Stoneforge, Thalia, Lingering Souls, Deathrite, and Loam. I don't remember what everyone in the top 8 was playing, but I obviously would have rather played one of the two storm decks, RUG delver, or the mirror instead of what felt like a cross between Jund and DnT. Regardless though, I felt like I kept reasonable hands (especially against a deck with multiple discard outlets).
I brick pretty hard on two islands even after shuffling twice with Ponders and crumbled to two Dark Confidants in game 1. I think by the time I died, I was holding 4 miracles in hand after starting the game with one. In game 2, I manage to survive for a while, but eventually lose after I can't find enough answers to slow down Jitte and SoFaI. I think I used EE to blow up SoFaI, but my one angel couldn't stop the likes of Thalia + Jitte (with 1 counter). I made a couple mental notes of noticing moments throughout the match that if I topped and saw Keranos, it wouldn't have done anything whereas Entreat would have stabilized the game.

Overall, I feel like the power levels of Entreat and Keranos are roughly equivalent in that they both force the opponent to concede. The difference though is that they work best at very different times. Keranos is difficult to play from a losing situation. He requires a stable board or a slightly unfavorable board to be able to clean up the game. On the plus side, he doesn't require Top and he's pretty much invincible on the board. He can also come in against the mirror which is huge. A resolved Jace in the mirror doesn't mean you win, whereas a resolved Keranos spells game over. Entreat, on the other hand, is much better later in the game when you can just put down 20 power on the board and win while an Entreat earlier in the game can be cleaned up by the opponents Decays, Plows, Pulses, etc. At the end of the day, I would rather have Entreat against the fair decks where we bring in the third win-con, but Keranos just seems so powerful in the mirror that I have to second-guess the decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by princeofperasia

I think I ended up playing Snapcaster to flashback a second double-wammy Wear/Tear.

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I don't think you can flashback a Fused Wear//Tear. You can only fuse when you cast from your hand.

I played 59 of 60 cards from Einherjer's GP Paris list this weekend, with a slightly modified sideboard. Took it to a 67-man event this weekend and split in the Finals, winning two Tundras and two Bayous.

Faced oarsman-style Miracles (2-1), Team America (2-1), Bernal-style Esper Blade (2-1), Punishing Jund (2-0), Reanimator (2-0), GWb Maverick (ID), Deadguy Ale (ID), followed by Tezzeret in the top 8 (2-1) and ANT in the top 4 (2-0).

Congratulations to all of you who took (slight alterations of) my list to tournaments and did well with it! It's great to see that you have success with it aswell! Keep it up!

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyrio

I don't think you can flashback a Fused Wear//Tear. You can only fuse when you cast from your hand.

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Oh you're right. I haven't played with Wear/Tear in my board until now and I think I did actually flashback the fuse without me or my opponent realizing the interaction. I don't think it would have mattered -- I think at that point in the game I was using the Wear part to kill an EE set at x=2 when nothing was on the board that it could blow up.

I will remember that for the future though, thanks!