[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Tao

@Sherko: No Probes? Would have liked to hear how they did. They also would have been amazing against all these Combo decks.

@burn opponent: That is NOT slowplay, that is stalling and stalling IS cheating and punished by DQ and further penalties. That difference is important to know. Never be afraid to call a judge and do it as soon as you realize what is going on. People are too shy about that. You wouldn't wait for the opponent to draw her third extra card before you call a judge either.

@Stage/Depths: My instinct says that this is not worth it. A giant GSZ is usually enough to win anyway and colorless lands really hurt. Also it is very slow. You pay 7 the first turn, then the second turn you make the 20/20 (if they don't have Wasteland) and only on the third turn after paying 7 you win. Two Treetop Villages win just as fast.

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Wasn't able to get the Probes before the tournament sadly. But I felt my main deck changes were pretty good (the Liliana most especially). Used to drop Lili because Nic Fit wanted answers in hand. I only resolved them thrice (twice against each of my Burn opponents, and once against Storm) and she was great! Plus, we have free discard courtesy of P. Fire!

I am not really sure how to call out stalling. Honestly yes I am a bit shy to call it out because she's one of the few people I know, but I was left rather pissed after the game especially when my friend and my bro told me about what they saw. How do I prove they're stalling? Do I just call a judge and tell them I think she's stalling or something?

MrIggins, TheArchitect

Thank you for your advice, the comparisons that you made are very solid! With the discard package I will most likely try a set of thought seizes over hymn/Lilly. I didn't have any combo decks available to test against, but I like the synergy between thought seize and therapy, between the two not many cards are safe. So lets hope they reprint it in m14!

As far as the Garruks go I'll try Prime Hunter out, as I still have never had a chance to play Relentless, but what you are saying makes alot of sense.

The Dark Depths/Thespian Stage combo is still intriguing as there has been twice that I was able to tutor up the other half, originally I just wanted to add more utility to Prime Titan, but that was before I knew about 2 Treetop Villages. There was a couple of times when colorless mana was an issue, so I think I'm going to try the tree top villages.

For the creature package I got Master of the hunt into play three times the one time he lived he locked things down pretty well, the other two times he died, and was out raced so he is most likely going out.
Agreed on Dryad Arbor it was cool to Green Sun into it turn one...but that was the only time I ever wanted it for, bad sync with innocent blood, and bad topdeck :(
Finks will become Thragtusk, I just thought it might be more relevent since there is a bunch of burn where I'm playing...which makes me rethink 4 thought seize...ARGH soo many decisions!

Oh yeah TheArchitect - You would be right concerning wasteland/ghost quarters, I'm only using ghost quarters cause all my wastelands are in another deck.

Any ways thank you again for the input. I'll post my new decklist when I'm done with it. I played GB Pox for a while, and loved the removal/discard that GB brings, so far this deck can be a beast!

Siezes in Lilys spot seems like a good call.

Master of the wild hunt is awful, he just is too easily answered Ive found. One card I like quiet a bit in GB is Wolfir Silverheart. Doesnt die to bolt and impacts combat the turn you play him if you have a creature out already. Also, unlike master of the wild hunt or thrun he will be bigger than any goyfs or knights which is often important.

Honestly I'd run 2 treetops in that depths/stage slot. I just figured you probably wanted to play around with those cards more.

Primal hunter is busted against any control or midrange deck. And most decks have no way of dealing with him besides flyers or 1 of detention spheres/pulses. I think you will like him.

Hey guys, I finally got my hands on the deck just in time for a TCGplayer 1k at B.C. Comix in Fenton, Michigan. I went 2-2-2, but since it was my first time playing the deck I can't complain too much. First, here's the list I played:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Angel of Despair
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas

SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

A couple of notes, karkas was just bad. I didn't play sneak and show like I expected (even saw quite a few in the room), and I likely wouldn't have drawn it anyway. It might have been ok if I was playing Primaeval Titan so I could drop him into play off of show and tell and fetch karakas. I might test that later. I also had a few times where I screwed myself out of value on explorer where I didn't have the right or enough basics. I'll probably go up to 8 or 9 basics if I can but I'm unsure what to cut beyond the karakas. Anyway, I'll give a report.

Round one, I saw an opening of scalding tarn, volcanic, and ponder. I played a cabal therapy naming show and tell. Turns out he was playing RUG delver. I flashed it back and took two tarmogoyfs and got value out of explorer while he got nothing. I don't remember much else, but I think pernicious deed won me the game. Game two he had a flipped delver but I green sun zenithed for a sigarda and there was nothing he could do. He told me after the match that he was holding a gilded drake. Of course he couldn't take sigarda.
1-0
Round two: Mono blue nivmagus/delver.
I kept a one lander with top, and dug my way out of it. Probably a bad keep. He had a flipped delver and he countered pernicious deed. Then, cabal therapy got flusterstormed and I promptly died. Game two was a complete blowout. He stifled two of my fetch activations, and wastelanded a third land. I couldn't come back from that and he killed me with a delver and nivmagus.
1-1
Round three: Mono blue Omnishow
I saw two islands and a preordain and guessed he was playing high tide, so I named that. He showed me a loaded hand, and even with a flashbacked therapy taking show and tell he drew into another and killed me. Game two I put in my duresses, memoricide, and extirpate. I mulliganed, and kept a 6 with 2 duress, a cabal therapy, one land, a top, and eternal witness. I managed to take a dream halls and show and tell, and after I extirpated them both he scooped. Game three was a heart breaker. He show and telled an omniscience into play and cast the last two cards in his hand, which were 2 dream halls. I put in thragtusk off the show and tell. For some reason that I don't remember I didn't have the mana to maelstrom pulse the omniscience so I had to sac thragtusk to phyrexian tower. Of course, I completely forgot that dream halls allows you to cast things too. I could have gotten angel of despair with fierce empath, cast either that or sun titan, and then presented lethal in time for the round to end. Instead we went to turns and while I had lethal on board next turn he was turn 5 and we drew. I was real mad at myself after that round.
1-1-1
Round Four: Jund
He thoughtseized me turn one and took a pernicious deed. We both played our hands out on the table and he had a deathrite, bob, slyvan library, and a bloodbraid elf. I had a wall of blossoms and not much else. I cast eternal witness to get deed back to blow up his board, but since it was the only card in my hand it was discarded to the liliana he played next turn. Game two I wiped his board, but only after a considerable amount of damage was dealt with deathrite shaman. I'm pretty sure I boarded completely wrong here, if I had put in extirpate I probably could have gotten his punishing fires if he tapped out and the fires killed me eventually while I couldn't do much. We talked a bit about split second and how he could have got punishing fire back with grove anyway even if I had cast extirpate. Jund seemed like a matchup I really should have won, as its a fair deck and nic fit is supposed to beat those. It was probably largely due to my inexperience.
1-2-1
Round Five: Affinity.
Game one I blew up something like 8 artifacts with deed, including his lands. With no artifacts in play he even had to sac glimmervoid. His lone card was a tezzeret and I maelstrom pulsed it to add insult to injury. Game two he had the nuts, attacking with a orinthoper with cranial plating to present at most a three turn clock. Game three pernicious deed did its thing again. He played a pithing needle, named top, and then promptly realized his mistake that he should have named deed. I therapied him and his hand was pretty bad anyway after a mull to 5.
2-2-1
Round Six: Goblins
This round was frustrating. My opponent took a long time shuffling. Whenever I had to shuffle my deck from explorer or a fetch he would spend a good 20 seconds shuffling my deck before putting it back. He played at a glacial pace, agonizing over simple things like playing a turn one lackey. I told him he needed to hurry if we were going to play three games and he continued to slow play. At this point I should have called a judge. Game one I had a sun titan recurring deed every turn and he just kept looking at his hand, shaking his head, taking like 3 minutes a turn to decide whether to play a creature or not and refusing to scoop. Game two he played out a ton of goblins including two seige gang commanders (hardcasted) since he got value off explorer. He won that one. We had about 5 minutes for game three and drew, even though I was in a commanding position. This guy ended the day with three draws. It's pretty bad when you draw half your matches. I'm surprised he didn't draw all 6. And goblins is supposed to be a fast deck!
2-2-2

Anyway, that's it! I had a lot of fun and learned some lessons about the deck. Hopefully I get better with therapy as time goes on. For every time I whiffed, it kind of balanced out with a few times of getting cards blindly.

New Hydra from core set:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...6&d=1372652478

Kalonian Hydra 3GG
Creature - Hydra

Trample
~ enters the battlefield with 4 +1/+1 counters in it.
When ~ attacks, double the number of +1/+1 counters on every creature you control.

0/0

It's a 2 turn clock!! Could it replace Primeval/Garruk as the finisher?

Oh, that is a beauty. I will definately be using him :)

Dat power creep.

So i've been testing some more and this is the list i ended up with:

3 veteran explorer
1 death rite shaman
2 sakura-tribe elder, considering 1/1 split with wall of blossoms
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 thrun, the last troll
1 wickerbough elder
1 thragtusk
1 wolfir silverheart, which will most likely become kalonian hydra :)
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
3 duress until i can get thought seize
4 green sun's zenith

3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed

2 garruk, primal hunter
3 sensei's divining top

4 verdant catacomb
4 misty rainforest
2 tree top village
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 ghost quarter yes i know it should be wasteland, but i'm too cheap to buy a fifth, and too lazy to take one out of my pox deck.
3 bayou
3 swamp
4 forest

once again any feed back is appreciated!

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Originally Posted by xieyun006

So i've been testing some more and this is the list i ended up with:

3 veteran explorer
1 death rite shaman
2 sakura-tribe elder, considering 1/1 split with wall of blossoms
1 scavenging ooze
2 eternal witness
1 thrun, the last troll
1 wickerbough elder
1 thragtusk
1 wolfir silverheart, which will most likely become kalonian hydra :)
1 primeval titan

4 cabal therapy
3 duress until i can get thought seize
4 green sun's zenith

3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed

2 garruk, primal hunter
3 sensei's divining top

4 verdant catacomb
4 misty rainforest
2 tree top village
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 ghost quarter yes i know it should be wasteland, but i'm too cheap to buy a fifth, and too lazy to take one out of my pox deck.
3 bayou
3 swamp
4 forest

once again any feed back is appreciated!

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I would suggest cutting out the Sakura Tribe-Elders. Have tried those back when I was playing straight GB and didn't like them really much. Going off with Veteran Explorer is usually enough. Try getting a 4th Explorer in that slot and then possibly a Wall of Blossoms? I'd also suggest adding a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse. For the 3 Duress, maybe try 2 Hymns and 1 Diabolic Intent? :tongue: You can fit in the TS later, but Sac explorer via Tower into Hymn then drop Witness into Hymn number 2 on Turn 3 is the nuts against some decks :D I know it sounds funny and highly improbable but I did manage to do it a couple of times before and those won me games I had no place to win. :laugh: Anyway, if you don't like Hymn I would still suggest playing the Diabolic Intent.

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Originally Posted by sherko7

I would suggest cutting out the Sakura Tribe-Elders. Have tried those back when I was playing straight GB and didn't like them really much. Going off with Veteran Explorer is usually enough. Try getting a 4th Explorer in that slot and then possibly a Wall of Blossoms? I'd also suggest adding a 2nd Maelstrom Pulse. For the 3 Duress, maybe try 2 Hymns and 1 Diabolic Intent? :tongue: You can fit in the TS later, but Sac explorer via Tower into Hymn then drop Witness into Hymn number 2 on Turn 3 is the nuts against some decks :D I know it sounds funny and highly improbable but I did manage to do it a couple of times before and those won me games I had no place to win. :laugh: Anyway, if you don't like Hymn I would still suggest playing the Diabolic Intent.

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Basically suggesting you undo the things I thought you should change. I disagree, but try both ways I guess and see how you like it.

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Originally Posted by sherko7

I am not really sure how to call out stalling. Honestly yes I am a bit shy to call it out because she's one of the few people I know, but I was left rather pissed after the game especially when my friend and my bro told me about what they saw. How do I prove they're stalling? Do I just call a judge and tell them I think she's stalling or something?

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This is complicated. Read what happened in Ecstatic_Conch's round 6. Some people are just overchallenged with certain situations. Especially when they fall behind and try to find ways to win that are just not there they take forever to make a move. That is of course not cheating and to these type of players you should be courteous because you obviously don't want to be a jerk. Nonetheless it is not rude to ask in a polite way to play the game at a reasonable pace. If they can't you just have to call a judge anyway. Whatever their motivation is, it is unacceptable to not win a round because of your opponent not playing his cards.

So the first thing I would do is to ask my opponent friendly to play faster. If he/she doesn't, call a judge. When he comes I would not use the word "stalling", that is up to the judge to decide (and he probably won't decide it is stalling anyway). Just describe what happened. Tell him that your opponent plays slower than appropriate. If you noticed that your opponent has reduced his/her game speed significantly tell him that, this is an important thing for the judge to know.

The judge will probably watch the game for a while and if your opponent was trying to cheat he/she will at least stop as long as a judge is there. But most likely the stalling stops entirely because very few cheaters keep on cheating once they have been called out on it. There always might be some people standing around that watch the game. If your opponent was simply playing slow this is never a pleasant situation but that is a lesson every player has to learn. No one is helped if he just keeps on playing slow forever once things get complicated and draws every second match because of it.

Sherko,

If you go back a page you'll see my original list, which did run hymn and diabolic intent. After playing around with it, I felt a one mana targeted discard was easier on the mana base. I understand the power of hymn, but duress/thought sieze fit better I think, since I'm looking to pull counterspells, and planes walkers (one can hinder my deed, and the other is natrally resiliant to it) and info on the opponent's hand so I can better play cabal therapy.
Diabolic intent was nice in many ways, I'm just not sure what to take out for it. Most of the time I search for deed, which would kill my creatures any ways, so I loved that synergy, and its nice to have a fifth flexable green sun too, you know for those times when I didn't actually have green sun in my hand...
The sakura elders are pretty solid, they made some of my two land hands feel very safe since no one ever counters him. I just wasn't sure if I would rather have card draw as opposed to land ramp in some of those situations. Then there are those random times when I draw into multiple green suns and would have liked to just sink my mana into a wall of blossoms, to draw an extra card...

TheArchitect,

Wolfir silverheart was pretty impressive, but there were a few times trying to keep him, and another creature on the board was too much of a hassle, even though he is out of bolt range, most of my other creatures aren't, them responding to soul bond can be heart breaking, we'll see how the kalonian hydra works out, I might just take him out and go with a fourth explorer, or diabolic intent, because an extra creature win con is nice, but I'm not really sure If I need it.

Thanks for the input guys!

The one that sherko7 is talking is a female player that uses RDW with a slow pace of game. It's better if you call a judge or better ask her to speed up her play sher :laugh:

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Originally Posted by xieyun006

Sherko,

If you go back a page you'll see my original list, which did run hymn and diabolic intent. After playing around with it, I felt a one mana targeted discard was easier on the mana base. I understand the power of hymn, but duress/thought sieze fit better I think, since I'm looking to pull counterspells, and planes walkers (one can hinder my deed, and the other is natrally resiliant to it) and info on the opponent's hand so I can better play cabal therapy.
Diabolic intent was nice in many ways, I'm just not sure what to take out for it. Most of the time I search for deed, which would kill my creatures any ways, so I loved that synergy, and its nice to have a fifth flexable green sun too, you know for those times when I didn't actually have green sun in my hand...
The sakura elders are pretty solid, they made some of my two land hands feel very safe since no one ever counters him. I just wasn't sure if I would rather have card draw as opposed to land ramp in some of those situations. Then there are those random times when I draw into multiple green suns and would have liked to just sink my mana into a wall of blossoms, to draw an extra card...

TheArchitect,

Wolfir silverheart was pretty impressive, but there were a few times trying to keep him, and another creature on the board was too much of a hassle, even though he is out of bolt range, most of my other creatures aren't, them responding to soul bond can be heart breaking, we'll see how the kalonian hydra works out, I might just take him out and go with a fourth explorer, or diabolic intent, because an extra creature win con is nice, but I'm not really sure If I need it.

Thanks for the input guys!

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The new hydra is a good replacement for wolfir

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

The new hydra is a good replacement for wolfir

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also good replacement for Broodmate Dragon :tongue:

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Basically suggesting you undo the things I thought you should change. I disagree, but try both ways I guess and see how you like it.

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Sorry, I missed that. But I loved Hymn back then really, and I never owned TS so never got to try but that change does sound good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

This is complicated. Read what happened in Ecstatic_Conch's round 6. Some people are just overchallenged with certain situations. Especially when they fall behind and try to find ways to win that are just not there they take forever to make a move. That is of course not cheating and to these type of players you should be courteous because you obviously don't want to be a jerk. Nonetheless it is not rude to ask in a polite way to play the game at a reasonable pace. If they can't you just have to call a judge anyway. Whatever their motivation is, it is unacceptable to not win a round because of your opponent not playing his cards.

So the first thing I would do is to ask my opponent friendly to play faster. If he/she doesn't, call a judge. When he comes I would not use the word "stalling", that is up to the judge to decide (and he probably won't decide it is stalling anyway). Just describe what happened. Tell him that your opponent plays slower than appropriate. If you noticed that your opponent has reduced his/her game speed significantly tell him that, this is an important thing for the judge to know.

The judge will probably watch the game for a while and if your opponent was trying to cheat he/she will at least stop as long as a judge is there. But most likely the stalling stops entirely because very few cheaters keep on cheating once they have been called out on it. There always might be some people standing around that watch the game. If your opponent was simply playing slow this is never a pleasant situation but that is a lesson every player has to learn. No one is helped if he just keeps on playing slow forever once things get complicated and draws every second match because of it.

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I used to play slow but I never stalled. And I do get that sometimes people like to try and find outs by playing it out, its a learning process. But holding a mountain and mumbling whether or not the damage is lethal isn't slow playing. :laugh: Anyway, I guess that's a lesson learned. In all fairness, I did take a restroom break for 3 minutes before game 3 as I really needed to take a leak lol. That contributed as well.

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Originally Posted by xieyun006

Sherko,

If you go back a page you'll see my original list, which did run hymn and diabolic intent. After playing around with it, I felt a one mana targeted discard was easier on the mana base. I understand the power of hymn, but duress/thought sieze fit better I think, since I'm looking to pull counterspells, and planes walkers (one can hinder my deed, and the other is natrally resiliant to it) and info on the opponent's hand so I can better play cabal therapy.
Diabolic intent was nice in many ways, I'm just not sure what to take out for it. Most of the time I search for deed, which would kill my creatures any ways, so I loved that synergy, and its nice to have a fifth flexable green sun too, you know for those times when I didn't actually have green sun in my hand...
The sakura elders are pretty solid, they made some of my two land hands feel very safe since no one ever counters him. I just wasn't sure if I would rather have card draw as opposed to land ramp in some of those situations. Then there are those random times when I draw into multiple green suns and would have liked to just sink my mana into a wall of blossoms, to draw an extra card...

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Well understood. I guess whichever works better. I love the explosiveness of Hymn but I guess you're right that 1 mana discards are probably more consistent and definitely lighter. Plus, pinpoint discard allows you to see the opponent's hand, map out his plays and pick which card would disrupt his play the most. Definitely worth the trade off.

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Originally Posted by kabards

The one that sherko7 is talking is a female player that uses RDW with a slow pace of game. It's better if you call a judge or better ask her to speed up her play sher :laugh:

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Yeah, RDW right? Those decks get draws all the time. :laugh:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...6&d=1372775661

Now that's what I'm talking about. Definitely playable. I'm not sure that it's playable right NOW, with the current meta, but I'm definitely gonna be getting some of those to have access to for the future.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...6&d=1372775661

Now that's what I'm talking about. Definitely playable. I'm not sure that it's playable right NOW, with the current meta, but I'm definitely gonna be getting some of those to have access to for the future.

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I'm trying to find a situation where you'd want this card over Thrun, but I can't find one. How often do blue decks play blue spells during our turn? To counter something or cast a brainstorm? Assume they steadily cast one blue spell a turn for 3 turns, it's still smaller than a medium goyf.

Starting out it can't block most goyfs or geese and it can't attack into a flipped delver. It's too slow against combo to pose a clock. It can be terminus'd just as easily as Thrun can. It doesn't provide any real or virtual card advantage.

Now had it said "Whenever an opponent that controls an island or a swamp casts a spell..." It would be a lot more powerful because it would hit bolts, stps, and other instants that "blue" decks usually use on our turn.

edit:

Snapcaster into Brainstorm, maybe, but still I'm not seeing it.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

I'm trying to find a situation where you'd want this card over Thrun, but I can't find one. How often do blue decks play blue spells during our turn? To counter something or cast a brainstorm? Assume they steadily cast one blue spell a turn for 3 turns, it's still smaller than a medium goyf.

Starting out it can't block most goyfs or geese and it can't attack into a flipped delver. It's too slow against combo to pose a clock. It can be terminus'd just as easily as Thrun can. It doesn't provide any real or virtual card advantage.

Now had it said "Whenever an opponent that controls an island or a swamp casts a spell..." It would be a lot more powerful because it would hit bolts, stps, and other instants that "blue" decks usually use on our turn.

edit:

Snapcaster into Brainstorm, maybe, but still I'm not seeing it.

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I'm thinking specifically as a way to punish the blue tempo decks. As a 3-drop, you can naturally play it on t2 after an Explorer/Therapy opening, and once it's in play, it applies pressure to your opponent because they now have to worry about whether or not they want to actually counter [spell x]. If they opt to counter any single [spell x], it is immediately larger than all Geese. Having hexproof means they can't submerge it. Once it's out, it's there, and there's nothing they're going to do about it. Also, for these specific metas (the tempo heavy ones), we're not Deeding at 3 or higher: we're Deeding at 1 or 2, which means that this thing can then swing in for a fair sized punch. I'm not saying it's a snap-include, but it is at least playable / interesting, which is substantially more than anything else in the rest of this set. When/if the inevitable BUG/RUG Delver meta rises once again, it'll be good to remember that this guy exists.

You don't like the new hydra?

Its okay, but not amazing. Having no protection whatsoever is a mark against it imo...its not better than tusk, sigarda, and upon reflection, I think that both wolfir and chameleon are better than it as well.

You guys try and dig way too deep.

I agree with Arianrhod about the hydra. Every other 5 drop we play is better than that guy. He's super mopey.

I disagree with him about the wolf though. He's not particularly exciting. As pointed out, Thrun is pretty much always better against the control decks; and we certainly don't need to waste a slot to help with the tempo decks.

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

You guys try and dig way too deep.

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What do you mean? Trying to find new cards for the archetype or over-thinking the cards' applications?

On the topic of relatively new cards, I was curious about a few in the jund version in particular. Are Rakdos's Return, Sire of Insanity, or Ruric Thar worth playing? Sire just seems insane versus combo and control if you can ramp into it fast and so does ruric thar. I think thar might just harm us too much to be worth playing though. And I'm sure you could cast a pretty big Rakdos's Return after ramping with explorer. It also has the added bonus of killing planeswalkers. Are these cards just out of the question? Have they been tried?

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

it is at least playable / interesting, which is substantially more than anything else in the rest of this set

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When DotP isn't crashing I'm pretty in love w/ Primeval Bounty. Too bad it triggers on casting. It'd be awesome if you could GSZ out Sigarda _and_ stick the three counters on her. Not sure it'll make the cut, but for anyone still on Rector it probably warrants testing in the Recycle slot (and if you can squeeze both Recycle and Bounty in then you really have the nuts although that's probably EDH fantasy land right there). Combine w/ Haakon, Gravecrawler, Havengul Lich and Flashback spells for maximum hilarity.

In terms of primeval bounty in recto I'm considering replacing faith's fetters with it at least for a bit of testing though it probably should just be oblivion ring. Also I don't think it should be viewed as a replacement for the recycle slot. Recycle actually digs you out of trouble situations or allows you to overwhelm your opponent with card advantage, whereas bounty simply adds effects to cards you are already playing which I guess makes topdecks a little better however it seems like its a bit of a win more card though top shinaningans seem interesting.

On a side note, if anyone is still on rector what do you consider of swapping out Volrath's Stronghold (or less likely Starved Rusalka) for a third Phyrexian Tower post rules change?

Why would you want another Tower? It's still terrible in multiples.

Hey all,

It has been a while since I posted, but I thought it might be cool to share a new version I put together.
I am really starting to love the amount of disruption and control this list has. To me it feels like it has a better MU
vs. control (lingering souls/hymn) and vs. reanimator/show-tell (humility). It includes an Academy package,
basically getting collective blessing out, and beating with tokens (lingering souls, elspeth, deranged hermit).
I would like to have your feedback, especially considering the side-board.

Much appreciated!

Creatures (11):
3 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deranged Hermit

Spells (28):
4 Lingering Souls
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Collective Blessing
1 Humility

Lands (21):
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
3 Plains
2 Forest

//Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Energy Flux
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Peacekeeper
1 Thrun, the last Troll
3 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate

For the MD have you though about Sorin over Elspeth? I know it sounds odd but it could help out your mana. BB for Hymn and 2WW for Elspeth can be tough in a Forest based deck. You would still then only have Sigarda and Humility as double White spells, but they are for later in the game and for tutoring. That way you can reasonably plan around only searching for only one Plains during the entire game.
Also if Deranged Hermit is an important part of your deck you should put it in there.

For the SB help can you explain what the white Leylines do there? They would be the first thing I cut but maybe they have a reason in your meta. The one Peacekeeper seems odd too because you have no way of searching for it. Energy Flux seems a bit strange, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

For the MD have you though about Sorin over Elspeth? I know it sounds odd but it could help out your mana. BB for Hymn and 2WW for Elspeth can be tough in a Forest based deck. You would still then only have Sigarda and Humility as double White spells, but they are for later in the game and for tutoring. That way you can reasonably plan around only searching for only one Plains during the entire game.
Also if Deranged Hermit is an important part of your deck you should put it in there.

For the SB help can you explain what the white Leylines do there? They would be the first thing I cut but maybe they have a reason in your meta. The one Peacekeeper seems odd too because you have no way of searching for it. Energy Flux seems a bit strange, too.

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1) Sorin vs Elspeth: actually, that is a very good suggestion. Until now I have not had any problems with the manabase, since phyrexian tower helps out getting the BB for hymn, and Veteran explorer can just get WW (turn 2 Elspeth is nothing to sneeze at). Besides that, I think Sorin's ultimate might be more relevant in legacy. I do love the interaction lingering souls + sorin's emblem +1/+0... I will definitely consider it.
2) Deranged Hermit: whoops, -1 GSZ, +1 Hermit, sloppy mistake.
3) SB: the sideboard is strongly resembling my old SB, and might not be as good in this version. Leyline of Sanctity are mostly vs. storm (tendrils). I used to play diabolic intent, which made Peacekeeper tutorable, so not as good in this version either. Energy Flux is used vs. affinity, but might be overkill as I'm running 3 deeds anyway. I don't think the pithing needles and leyline of the void need explanation.

I'm not going to lie, this deck looks fun. Since I have most of the mana base, I think I will go bgw with my build. I could easily switch to GBR since I play The Walking Dead and have the mana base already. Shoot, most of that deck transfers to this one.

[DECK]4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Innocent Blood
2 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Angel of Despair
[/DECK]

Honestly, I shoved in a bunch of things I just want to play with. I know there are some great interactions going on here with Sun Titan, Pernicious Deed, and Wasteland. Primal Hunter is a beast and tough for people to deal with because of the 3/3 beasts and the CA he provides. Nothing like pumping out tokens that can't be dealt with by Punishing Fire. I think I have enough hand hate for combo decks. The only deck I fear is Death and Taxes because of the Phyrexian Revoker in the MD.

A couple of questions I have are what cards or decks, create problems for this deck in general?

Quick combos like ant and belcher are the only decks I've found to give nic fit problems. I play scapewish version and run wicket elder for revokers and troublesome artifacts plus u have pdeeds and therapys so being smart with those makes dnt a pretty easy match up

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jobdevries

1) Sorin vs Elspeth: actually, that is a very good suggestion. Until now I have not had any problems with the manabase, since phyrexian tower helps out getting the BB for hymn, and Veteran explorer can just get WW (turn 2 Elspeth is nothing to sneeze at). Besides that, I think Sorin's ultimate might be more relevant in legacy. I do love the interaction lingering souls + sorin's emblem +1/+0... I will definitely consider it.
2) Deranged Hermit: whoops, -1 GSZ, +1 Hermit, sloppy mistake.
3) SB: the sideboard is strongly resembling my old SB, and might not be as good in this version. Leyline of Sanctity are mostly vs. storm (tendrils). I used to play diabolic intent, which made Peacekeeper tutorable, so not as good in this version either. Energy Flux is used vs. affinity, but might be overkill as I'm running 3 deeds anyway. I don't think the pithing needles and leyline of the void need explanation.

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- White Leyline are not a good choice I think. Most Combo decks these days use Show and Tell. Peacekeeper doesn't do anything against modern Show and Tell decks anymore (Omnitell) and Energy Field is too situational imo. I think with 4 Thoughtseizes, 2 Carpet of Flowers in these slots you would be happier.
- I think everyone in this thread has at least once gone below 4 Explorer / 4 GSZ before because we wanted more deck space and we all went back to 4/4.
- You do not need Maelstrom Pulse. Just play 4 Abrupt Decay. Pulse is best against Tombstalker and Jace TMS but Lingering Souls is already good against Jace and can stall long enough against Tombstalker. Likewise Sigarda is great against Jace and trades with Tombstalker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krimson Viper

A couple of questions I have are what cards or decks, create problems for this deck in general?

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- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.
- Jace TMS is a problematic card, too. He is beatable but his existence turns the UW Control matchups from a bye into a hard fight.
- If you play White as your third color you should play Sigarda. It is the best GSZ target for Nic Fit and red and blue versions envy you for her. Awesome against Jace, awesome against BUG, almost unbeatable for Jund.

[QUOTE=Tao;735592]- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.

So what can you use to sideboard for these decks? All I can think of is innocent blood, duress(some kind of hand destruction), and maybe shriek maw, but I don't like maw too much since he can't hit gris.

My sideboard for GB Nic Fit

3 innocent blood
2 duress
3 mindbreak traps
2 nihil spell bomb
2 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 kroshan grip
1 beast within

Any suggestions?

Have you guys thought about Strionic Resonator from M14? If there is a Legacy deck with epic ETB-Triggers and enought mana it would be Nic Fit, right? You could copy the abilities from Explorer, Eternal Wittness, Armada Wurm, Academy Rector any Titan. You could even be using the mana from Phyrexian Tower to activate the Resonator.

[QUOTE=xieyun006;735641]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.

So what can you use to sideboard for these decks? All I can think of is innocent blood, duress(some kind of hand destruction), and maybe shriek maw, but I don't like maw too much since he can't hit gris.

My sideboard for GB Nic Fit

3 innocent blood
2 duress
3 mindbreak traps
2 nihil spell bomb
2 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 kroshan grip
1 beast within

Any suggestions?

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If only we had an edict effect with split second!

I'm guessing Angel of Despair would be a good fit. You can find her with Diabolic Intent and we can actually hardcast her (or of course cheat her in with S&T)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadaver

Quick combos like ant and belcher are the only decks I've found to give nic fit problems. I play scapewish version and run wicket elder for revokers and troublesome artifacts plus u have pdeeds and therapys so being smart with those makes dnt a pretty easy match up

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So I guess I shouldn't be that afraid of them then? They are the only reason why I chose to run Elesh MD, and got rid of G.Titan, who I really wanted in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

- The arch enemy for Nic Fit is any deck that plays Show and Tell. You will usually lose against them. Also all decks that play Griselbrand and/or Emrakul are a problem. So Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Reanimator and 12-Post are the decks that you don't want to face.
- Jace TMS is a problematic card, too. He is beatable but his existence turns the UW Control matchups from a bye into a hard fight.
- If you play White as your third color you should play Sigarda. It is the best GSZ target for Nic Fit and red and blue versions envy you for her. Awesome against Jace, awesome against BUG, almost unbeatable for Jund.

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I am not sure what slot I should put her in, but I have heard she is great in this deck. How come nobody runs a fatty to answer Show and Tell? I would figure Angel of Despair is an excellent choice for them since she will blow up whatever they put into play.

There is not really much we can do about it. Angel of Despair is too specialized. It is good against Show and Tell, but dead against any other Combo. Not only things like ANT and Elves, but also Sneak Attack, Reanimator and 12-post. So it is not worth to fill your SB with barely castable 7-drops that don't do anything 3/4 of the time. You could GSZ/Fierce Empath them to save a few slots, but if your opponent knows about it, it won't do anything except for delaying him.

Like I said, there is not much you can do about it in nonblue nonred versions of Nic Fit. Additional Thoughtseizes are probably your best shot but it won't make the matchup good.

Blue versions have the best chance by dedicating 12-15 SB slots to it but they also use cards to fight Combo in general and not only the "cheating fattie into play" decks (4 Force of Will, 3-4 Negate, 2-4 Thoughtseize, 2-3 Surgical Extraction).
Red versions have nice effective cards in Slaughter Games and Red Blasts, too.
For White versions, they have Gaddock Teeg, but he doesn't really stop much.

In general I don't see much reason to play White without Rector over Red and Blue and Rector is currently not good. Though the Lingering Souls lists are interesting. White gives you Sigarda, but that is about it.
For a new player to the deck I would advice that you try out HoneyT's Punishing Fire list, Arianrhod's Scapewish list and/or Qweerios' BUG Fit list before you start brewing on your own. They are imo currently the strongest versions of the deck. My personal preferences are BUG and Punishing Fire.

The old answers to show and tell (angel of despair, innocent blood) just don't cut it anymore. Griselbrand ruined that. I don't even waste the slots trying to answer SnT any more.