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If your meta is heavy aggro (Zoo/Affinity/Goblins/GW), then 2/2 split. If your meta is mostly 8-10 creatures/deck, play Jace. Jace is terrible against Zoo/Goblins/Merfolks unless you have a way to support him (Peacekeeper against Merfolks, enough counters against Zoo's Burn i.e. difficult considering you still have to keep dudes off the board, and Jace is just not very spetacular against goblins when he faces Ringleaders/Matrons/Siege-gangs etc).
Elspeth is really good at establishing inevitability, and doesn't eat it to pyroblast, and gives you another out to Thrun, and is a faster clock than Jace a lot of the time.
Hey guys. just wanted to know how you guys deal with Thrun. I splash black for Perish, but I'm not sure if that's the best answer. Humility works to an extent but green usually means Grip. Also, what do you guys think of running SFM + Equipment package in the sideboard of a traditional Landstill List? In theory it takes up quite a bit of space (6-7 slots) but I'm eager to see if it works; Drew Levin went 10th at Providence with his Uw list packing SFM in the side (link). Anyways, just wanted to hear some thoughts.
These take care of Thrun or buy you time to find Wrath of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourglass
Phyrexian Metamorph
Moat
Humility
Elspeth, Knight-Errant (infinite chump blocks)
Crucible of Worlds with Factories (infinite chump blocks)
As for the Stoneforge sb plan its probably vs Merfolk? I prefer Peacekeepers.
I took this homebrew list to a tournament. It was a small 8 man tournament but i just wanted a feel on how the deck played.
UB Landstill
23 Lands
4 Delta
2 Strand
1 Tundra (EE@3)
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
6 Win
3 Jace
1 Crucible
2 Isochron Scepter
9 Draw
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
3 Standstill
9 Removal
3 GFTT
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 The Abyss
14 Permission
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
15 SB
2 Perish
1 Damnation
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 EE
2 Negate
4 Bob
3 Extirpate
The reason to the creation of this list was based on:
- Examining UWx Landstill v.s. Ubg Landstill and realizing that the 'weakness' of UWx Landstill is the strained manabase of having to play WW spells in a deck that primarily wants to play UU spells. It's usually not an issue, but the inconsistency definitely exists. So I went ahead and worked on Ubg lists with Deed but still felt that having Waste/Factories in a 3-color deck was creating situations where I lost games because of manabases.
-I referred to the recent success of UW builds and saw the strength of 2-color lists, especially those packing Shackles (which is decent against the Merfolk matchup and slightly poorer against Zoo/Bant/Junk). I originally wanted to try out UW builds, but decided to take a fresh look at something I've never done before: UB.
- The reason I tried out UB was: a lot of powerful black removal has been printed recently i.e. GFTT, Dismember etc. In particular, GFTT is the single most powerful removal right now that only doesn't answer a Dreadnought/MUD (both decks not being tier and a primarily concern). StP is still the best removal, but with Mental Misstep around, I feel that the-turn slower GFTT is still capable of pulling its weight because you know that GFTT is going to resolve without risks of running into Mental Missteps. Another reason that pushed me to black was: In white, your second best white removal is Path to Exile, which I absolutely detest. The land drop from Path really costs you too many games that matter, and I feel that black offers more for removal numbers 5-8. For sweepers, black also gets Damnation, so the black-equivalent of Wrath is always available. More importantly, black gives Perish (popular in UWx splashing black anyway), and Extirpate (which is an all time star currently against Painter/Show/NO/control mirrors).
- As such, I went ahead and worked a UB list, my removals are misstep-proof. I still fell back on Scepter because sticking a Scepter in a game usually just steals games. I board out my 2nd scepter against decks with better artifact removal (Grudge/Pridgemage/Grips) but keep them in against almost any other deck. All removal is imprintable on Scepter, giving a total of 13 (4 Counterspell, 5 removal, 4 Brainstorm) spells that are imprintable and 6 less subpar spells that you don't imprint (MM, Snare). In the SB, imprinting Extirpate against control/aggro-control decks is viable although usually it's a win-more situation.
- The new list I made has an extremely stable manabase. The high island count supports Shackles, where 3-color builds can't support shackles at all. Shackles is another small win-condition in the deck, but gives the deck better chance against some matchups (SFM/Bob/Merfolk/Gobs/). The Abyss is extremely devastating when resolved (against Thrun it works too), and getting either Abyss/Shackles means that your opponents have to overextend, making your DAmnation/Perish better postboard. The Abyss creates situations where your opponents are simply shut out until they build a hand to dump multiple creatures and counterspells, to which you have time to build up your hand for counterspells etc. If both Abyss and Shackles stick, it's pretty much game over (they have 2 creatures, both will die to the Abyss since you steal one).
In the games I played, my opponents had SoLS/SoFF and Bitterblossom, therefore making Abyss much weaker, but I can't imagine how the Abyss will function against decks that don't have pro-B. Pridemage is an issue, but that applies to Moat as well, so only Humility is truly powerful against Pridemage-creatures. Aside from that, sticking an Abyss means that the aggro player is unable to develop a board, allowing you to have time to build up with Crucible/Jace/Standstill/Scepter etc.
- I really like the list so far. The manabase is pretty stable. Black for Perish and Bob (for control and combo) and Extirpate really offer a lot. The combination of high Island count for Shackles and 2 Abyss Maindeck seems to work out well as x-1 removal spells that stick in play. The only change I would like to make is adding the 4th Snare and 4th Standstill. I'm not sure if cutting Scepter is correct but I am open to the idea on cutting those 2 slots for DAmnations/Snares/Standstill.
Like I said, this is a fresh list and idea that I had thrown out. It has its weaknesses but I liked how it played out.
@Metalwalker
Are there any threats that you're worried about that have CMC >3? If not, then consider Smother. It handles all the creatures GFTT as well as the occasional Affinity/Metalworker/Dreadnought too.
In my meta we have NORUG, Show/Hypergenesis, SFM+SoFF/SoLS, I ended up taking the Edicts which worked out nice against those matchups. If me meta weren't so full of pro-B/shrouded creatures, I would go with Smother.
It bears mentioning, though no doubt duly ignored, that the "problems" you're bringing up disappear when you stop running antiquated cards. If some split of StP/WoG/EE/Moat/Humility has really been your removal suite since any time during or after Lorwyn block, you're going to lose to aggro decks. "Misstep-proofing" your removal by doubling its cost (high cost: the problem with said removal in the first place) is taking two steps backward to take one step forward. Not only are you taking out the only spell that's unconditionally still as good as it was years ago, you're replacing it with something that's also answered 1-for-1 by a commonly played counterspell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Buuut, if by "GFTT is the single most powerful [non-StP] removal right now" you meant "Dismember is..." then you'd be right; scalable cost without necessary access to a second color is awesome. As awful as The Abyss is, stalling into it on a clear board is actually almost as good as stalling into a planeswalker against a creature deck. That's something to consider: something like 4 StP, 2-3 Dismember, 2 Abyss/Damnation is not the worst thing you could be doing with your slots if you've got a set of Jaces in your deck to follow it up. You'd have to play 3 colors, but StP is not a difficult or terrible splash and Dismember can pick up a good amount of slack. You're still mostly 2 colors anyway with no double color requirements outside of UU.
If you really wanted to work on it, that would be the direction to go. Last thing, The Abyss can't ever target Thrun because you still control the Abyss trigger. If that guy's actually a problem for you, just board Edict since he's not in anyone's main either.
After seeing some of the newer lists, this is what I've been thinking about running, but some card choices I'm not as solid on. Mainly the sideboard is where my doubts are. Is PtE just not worth it anymore? Is it worth dodging extraction/extirpate by running 1 day 1 wrath?
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismember
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment/Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top/Path to Exile
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Go for the Throat
2 Misdirection
2 Peacekeeper
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1) Path to Exile - I want to slow down my opponent with cheap removal early game so I can dominate with my 4 mana bombs, so instead giving them a land and speeding them up isnt a good idea. Example: opponent just played stoneforge mystic which searched for batterskull, do you want to path that mystic?Quote:
Originally Posted by rayaj
2) 2x Wraths is probably better so you can kill Thrun.
3) Why 3 Standstills instead of 4?
4) I'd recommend 1 Enlightened Tutor in the SB as it 'doubles' your sideboard cards.
I've almost always run 3 Standstills, I ran 4 at one point, but it felt like too many at the time. I honestly couldn't tell you what I would cut for a 4th Standstill because I like the way it feels at three. Historically I ran 3 because it was bad against vial decks. With MM out it could be more viable, but I still feel like I don't want the 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
As for the E Tutor, what should I cut? The Go for the Throat? I'm also not sure how much I like leyline in board.
I've been wondering if two shackles is the proper number with how amazing it is vs all the creature decks that have been running about. I believe that this deck has tools to beat most decks in the format and has not been getting the love it deserves due to the popularity of Stoneblade
(also i have been playing on Lackey if anyone wants to test real decks on that please hit me up my name is Rekk on that as well Message me)
@Catinthehat: Saying playing Moat/Humility/WoG/EE is wrong since LOR block gave aggro decks a host of powerful creature tells me that you know nothing of this archetype except for trolling or following the recent trends of the more 'popularly' played control decklists (that aren't really Landstill for that matter). With regards to not playing StP, it is a loss to not play the best removal in the format, but that doesn't mean that it's not viable. Ubg lists don't run StP, and PV ran non 1cmc black removal in his suite for the GP, with the idea to have non-misstepable removal. Obviously if you're playing white, you still play StP even with Misstep being around in the format, but if you're going black removal, where possibly the next best non-StP removal in the format is still GFTT (Dismember is terrible in control lists), then there's more incentive to go for GFTT then something like Ghastly Demise and Innocent Blood.
@Rekk: Shackles is great in control (also see Hanni's Countertop control list and MUC). The only issue with Shackles is: If you're playing in a landstill shell with manlands and wastelands, it becomes increasingly hard to maximize Shackles and in fact Shackles becomes a liability that doesn't do anything. If you do want to pack 2 or more Shackles, you need to consider playing 2 colors instead of 3 colors and maintain your colorless lands low (i.e. you can't run 4 Factories + 4 wastelands etc). I tried Shackles in UWx builds and the only issue with that is in UWx builds, it is more desirable to run a manabase of 2 Plains to support your WW-costing bombs. This naturally makes shackles weaker, on top of the manlands/wastelands/Ruins you play. If you play shackles, make sure that your non-blue color isn't a restriction in your manabase. That was one of the reasons I tried the UB list I posted earlier because it supported Shackles better than the UW/UWx lists (since you want WW consistently in UWx builds).
Yea I don't get what catinthehat meant by the antiquated removal suite. The only thing I agree on in regards to being antiquated is Moat and EE. Moat is antiquated mainly because of Quasali Pridemage with tutors and the number of GW decks running around and EE is just kind of clunky at times and requires a little bit more of the nonbasic(s) that you need the extra color(s) from. Wrath of God/Humility is still relevant as an anti aggro strategy. Wrath of God obviously being one of the best sweepers in the format and kills off Thrun and other problematic(s) enabling the empty board to JaceTMS or Standstill, and Humility shuts off Quasali Pridemage, KOTR shenanigans and most everything else.
Also in a misstep laden environment, I would still use dismember as a one of in a lot of control decks, even U/W. Obviously still use 4 swords to plowshares as well..
If your spot removals are Misstep proof, this means that every Brainstorm/ Top that you cast in late game and in g2-g3 (if he doesnt board MM out) will be countered. Not good.
I'm wondering what would be a better sideboard card, leyline of sanctity or serenity? I feel like having something to wipe affinity would be nice to have, but sanctity definitely has its place.
You guys still like the Peacekeeper plan even though they now have Dismember to answer it?
I packed misdirections as well for that reason, BUT honestly you are probably better off getting 4 pte from sb and drop humility or moat on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
That is an option, or have a red source + firespout in the main/board. I also still like EE set at two or three to do a pretty good board sweep. It's really up to you, I'm going to test it in a few different ways to get a feel for the right option.
I have a couple questions:
1. How much countermagic is too much?
I'd like to experiment with 14 because Spell Snare is nifty versus everyone and Counterspell is great for our late-game.
2. Thoughts on Dismember and Crucible of Worlds in today's metagame?
Dismember seems really rough. The lifeloss is huge for Landstill. At a glance it seems people are playing it just because they can. Why not just play Path to Exile? Crucible is another interesting card. Stalling with Mishra's Factory is nice, but finding the right moment to drop a 3cc artifact is difficult. Does Mental Misstep make up for this?
I play mostly in an aggro meta and have been having some issues pre-sideboard with Zoo. I switched to UBG Landstill for a bit but really hated it. After testing I arrived at the following list:
Draw:
4 Standstill
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (probably run a split with Elspeth v. Zoo, etc)
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Diving Top
Countermagic:
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
Removal:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
Land:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
I know my manabase looks funny but I haven't had any issues. I experimented with 3 Wasteland but disliked the colorless mana.
Anyway, I hate to clog up the thread with another decklist. Just getting back into the game and hoping to get a fresh take. I'll check back tomorrow and try to add some relevant responses to the other posts in this thread.
The problem with Spell Snare is that it can be misstepped. If you need room, Spell Snare is the most obvious cut.
The lifeloss of Dismember is horrible; Path to exile is an excellent card in my opinion.
If you want to improve your zoo matchup, add the third EE I'd say. EE is about the best card you can have in this matchup.
Crucible of Worlds is very strong, although I'm not a fan of it. CoW is very good if want to reinforce your board-position, but it doesn't turn things around in the aggro matchup like Humility, Shackles, WoG. The thing is that CoW is actually just as slow as the 4c bombs or Shackles.
The problem with Spell Snare is that it can be misstepped. If you need room, Spell Snare is the most obvious cut.
The lifeloss of Dismember is horrible; Path to exile is an excellent card in my opinion.
If you want to improve your zoo matchup, add the third EE I'd say. EE is about the best card you can have in this matchup.
Crucible of Worlds is very strong, although I'm not a fan of it. CoW is very good if want to reinforce your board-position, but it doesn't turn things around in the aggro matchup like Humility, Shackles, WoG. The thing is that CoW is actually just as slow as the 4c bombs or Shackles.
I was trying a similar counter heavy build for a time, but it never seemed to work out for me. You don't get the proper balance between answers off of your Standstills. It's really awkward & frustrating having them break your Standstill with say Knight of the Reliquary, drawing a bunch of Missteps/Snares and no removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by markdirt
I'm fairly confident after this that 10-11 counters main deck is still the sweet spot. I'm currently testing dropping Snare entirely for Misstep for a 4/3/3 split with FoW/CS/MM, and going back to running 2x Path in the main.
It feels promising but I haven't run the gauntlet quite enough yet to draw any strong conclusions.
@Crucible. Love the card, and I'm currently running 1x main (although I do play a 1x E. Tutor build). Though you make a good point that it can be awkward to find a good time to cast it. Its job is really to carry you through to 4+ mana against decks that are going to try and keep you off of it. The added benefits of Factory recursion and wastelock opportunities are just gravy.
Unfortunately in some match-ups you will certainly wish it was something else. Because of that it's a card that has been fluctuating in and out of my lists for a long time. Whether it belongs in the main or the side or not at all I think is potentially list/meta dependent.
@Dismember... I have no idea why people are playing this. Maybe-MAYBE in a heavy black splash build, but in any other UW Landstill it seems pretty terrible.
FWIW, to those who think this deck's dead, I've gone undefeated in back to back locals with it Wednesday and Thursday. I beat NO Bant, Cephalid Breakfast, Maverick, and Show and Tell combo in the first one, and in the second beat BUG Landstill, Burn, Cephalid Breakfast again, and Dragon Stompy of all things.
The list I ran varied in sideboard between days, but not maindeck:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
SB, In General:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
(Other things that I try on a given day - Serenity/Energy Flux, more yard hate, Blue Elemental Blast. Will try Mage 4 and Clique 3 soon.)
Vendilion Clique, I've learned, is amazing. I won most of my game 2's on the back of a well-timed Clique, especially beating a tapped out burn by flashing it down, seeing 2 Pyroblasts, leaving them both, untapping, and dropping Mage for Pyroblast. It was good in almost every match, and I'm contemplating trying to find room for them maindeck.
Congratz on the results.
Holy man-lands batman... a very interesting list. All the ETB-tapped lands makes me nervous though, were they ever an issue?
I like that you managed to shoehorn Path and Snare and Misstep into the maindeck together, and I've always been a fan of the Meddling Mage + Clique board plan.
Did you ever miss being able to produce 1/1 soldiers?
ETB tapped was never anything more than a small inconvenience. Ever since the curve of the deck got so stupidly low with most of my disruption costing 1 or 0, I just have to find the right time to drop the tapped land. Turn 3 is almost always an amazing time for this, as I have no 3-drops prior to Clique boardins. Occasionally, depending on my hand and the match, turn 2 or turn 1 works for this as well. I am contemplating dropping one Conclave for a Mutavault, but we'll see. The blue's been good to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
As for soldiers, no. I've been arguing since the beginning of time that Elspeth, Knight-Errant didn't belong in any list unless you already had four Jaces. I'd much much rather just drop more Jaces and have a second or third one to get through counterwalls or Vindicates or whatever.
Congrats.
I hope you fit the clique(s) into the maindeck somehow. I know a lot of people are in a love/hate relationship with the Vendilion Clique seeing as how some people think they are useless due to the 1 toughness and pretty much dies if you as so much as blow on it, as well as dying to almost every creature in the format if its ever used as a blocker. Despite the con(s), personally, I love it in every control or aggro control list as a maindeck creature. It has evasion, built in thoughtseize/gitaxian probe thus allowing you to make much better decisions which goes hand in hand with your own Jace using brainstorm/fateseal, dodges misstep/snare, allows you to not tap out on your turn, faster clock especially in conjunction with a manland and pretty much anti jace when flashed in and they brainstormed, . Since you are landstill and your list has a LOT of manlands, even if they fatesealed more than likely clique and a manland will kill Jace on the following turn that clique was flashed in. I don't know but I just love the clique main and/or side. I just wish I had a full playset of them, but only have 2 at the moment.
Also, its pretty cool to just ambush a Dark Confidant with a flashed in Clique...it's happened before!
Ambush flashing is actually what I'd usually do with Clique in game 1. What people don't realize about Clique in UW Landstill is that in a lot of matchups, it's a removal spell. Trying to protect and go the distance with him in matchups with a lot of removal is sort of futile. Against Deadguy, for example, you can flash in Clique, clear the Vindicate out of their hand, block a swinging guy, untap, drop a Jace, and win.
The downside, obviously, is that it gives them a use for their Swords to Plowshares game 1.
Yeah, clique ambush flashing is really useful. Mind game tricks can happen at that point if you have successfully done a clique ambush once earlier against the same opponent. That same opponent when they see 3 mana open will be very wary about attacking into what seems like an empty board especially if they don't have an instant removal spell and swinging with a guy they want to keep as long as possible such as a Dark Confidant (which saves you 2 life in the process). Also, if they have a creature they want to keep such as a Dark Confidant and they don't swing into an 'empty' board seeing your 3 mana up, that can telegraph to you as the clique player that they probably do not have an instant removal spell. Then again, the opponent could be playing mind games with you and bait you into thinking that they don't have the removal...
I think creature cards like Clique/Bob/SFM in Landstill is best played on game 2. Most Legacy decks have MD answers to creatures because aggro is a huge part of Legacy. The ability to turn off 4-8 cards while playing UWx Landstill in game 1 has always been the deck's strength (similarly applied to BUGstill/Countertop etc).
In game 2, most of my opponents do mention to me that they will board out all removal for control-hate and only keep removal if they can't board in anything else from their SB. This is where cards like Bob/Clique will be maximized. Your opponents now have little outs to them, and you can sometimes ride them to victory.
In game 3, it's your choice if you want to utilize the strengths of Bobs/Cliques against your opponents. For most parts, you need to look at the matchup and analyze if sticking a Bob/Clique will most definitely win you games. If it doesn't, then I tend to not play with these in game 3, if it does (e.g. control mirror where Clique/Bob is huge) I will play them in game 3 knowing my opponents will bring in hate again. Being on the play/draw is huge when deciding whether I'm playing Bob/Cliques in game 3. I usually don't play Cliques in game 3 on the draw unless she definitely wins the matchup for me (e.g. combo). I keep Bobs in against control/combo even if I'm on the draw because 2cmc is cheaper to cast. However against control lists with StP/Snare, playing Bobs in game 3 demands a little more thought if you are debating whether you want to entirely kill 4-7 cards in their deck or you want to leverage bob to win games.
Just my 2c.
Nice list Taco. I would personally play more Colonnades over Conclaves. I seldom feel the need for Landstill to go into attack mode, even when under a Standstill. For most parts, I think that the Conclave will be attacking around the same turn as the Colonnade (i.e. late game when you have lots of mana). Colonnade is great on the defense but it is a little more mana intensive but it does fix the mana well in the early game. Also, it helps the control player gets around Chokes ;P
Vendilion Clique is only good because of Jace TMS. Vendilion Clique is like Duress in Vintage. Harm their hand and drop a bomb they simply cannot deal with: Yawgmoth's Will respectively Jace The Mind Sculptor. I think you can very well run Vendilion Clique, because its primary purpose is to resolve Jace TMS.
The 1 Colonnade choice is actually pretty deliberate - It can't really afford to swing until pretty late game, and I can never swing with two. And it can't swing with me having mana open for a hard Counterspell until I have 7 land on the board (8 if I fear it can get removed prior to a game-shifting spell.) So if you hit two, it's kind of the blows. And in any Landstill mirror, while it's awesome in a late game manland race, it's terrible in determining who has to break a Standstill first. And as a fast clock, it's just the blows. And while you don't always need a fast clock to not lose, sometimes you need a fast clock to not run out of time in a round.
Conclave #3 is a spot up for debate. I've contemplated everything from Mutavault to Dust Bowl to even Vesuva in its position. And it'll probably get tinkered around with. But I don't ever really find I want more than 1 Colonnade.
You could also run a Bojuka Bog in that conclave #3 slot and and cut a Tormod's Crypt in the board freeing up a SB-slot. Just a thought.
Ven Clique is really good even with out jace. He is a perfect creature for this deck as he does everything you want him to do. I am very happy to see taco using him to success as I feel that he should be some where in your 75.
@Taco
I like the list a lot and it has inspired a slightly different build than what I usually go with. But I wonder if you have missed humility/moat with this build? I also feel like part of the reason you don't like/miss Elspeth in your build is the inclusion of conclave with its flying built-in already. Are you also not a fan of wasteland? I think it can be such a house in the format with so many decks having few basics. How do you like having four standstill? Do you feel like they're getting there enough?
@Iron Buddha
Bojuka Bog isn't that great in decks where you can't readily fetch it up; being uncounterable is nice, but if you don't need gy hate G1 then it's a bad swamp that you can't find when you need EE at 3. I would rather leave my GY hate in the board.
I personally liked the idea of dismember, but it might be better as a SB option. Honestly the only time I can think of it being really relevant after more thought is if reanimator goes for jin-gitaxias and you can hit him before they get their hand full again. It can be good to kill some of the smaller threats, but path is probably just as good at that. The only issue I have with path is that it can make wasteland worse should you decide to run both in the same list.
deleted for double post
Point by point,Quote:
Originally Posted by rayaj
1. I've never missed either. I feel they're both underpowered, believe it or not. Humility doesn't stop a bunch of guys from dinking you for one, and Moat doesn't stop creatures from doing shenanigans or being part of a combo. Or, you know, just from flying. I'm not going to run an effect similar to this until they make it a three drop and make it significantly better than Ghostly Prison / Norn's Annex.
2. I used to run Wasteland. Anyone who knows me and reads my posts knows how much I love Wasteland. But then I started questioning what the point was. I have no clock and usually want to hit 6+ land in a late game, so I don't really want it for mana denial. I'm not concerned with hitting other people's manlands because instead I'm just running more of my own, and some of mine fly. So this narrows down my desire to see Wasteland against the very tiny list of nuisance lands in the format, which I will address my answers to:
A. Dark Depths: STP, Path, Spell Snare/Counter/Force on Hexmage, and Needle on either or both postboard.
B. Dust Bowl: Pithing Needle in sideboard. Also, stopping the Crucible at all costs and winning with Jace asap.
C. Maze of Ith: Needle, win with Jace, or overwhelm with 3-4 guys lategame.
D. Hideaway lands: Needle them, or Stop the condition from happening.
E. Karakas: STP/Path guys in response, glare at them for playing Death and Taxes.
F. Anything goofy that 43 Lands plays: Mage/Counter/Needle/Yard Hate the engine, resolve a Jace.
Additionally, not running Wasteland gives me the freedom to Needle Wasteland on turn one if I think that mana denial is going to be a large part of my opponent's strategy.
3. Yes. Four Standstill is amazing. It's so easy for my list to get there with it given the retarded number of ways I have to interact with the opponent for zero or one mana.
4. Anything Dismember can do, Path can do better. Well, within reason. Killing Phyrexian Crusader or dodging Chalice of the Void for 1 are not included here, but the deck has other answers to this sort of thing. And as for them getting the land, I don't care. I'm not playing the mana denial game. I'm not counting cards, I'm only counting cards that can actually kill me and letting my deck get there to deal with the rest.
EDIT: I will say I'm currently testing a Dust Bowl in place of one Conclave, as it both helps in the manland war and can address the problematic lands that show up.
Okay, I can see your points, though that doesn't immediately make me feel the need to go immediately put your version together without a few edits. I am mostly wary of the conclaves in particular but I do like the 2 conclave/1 dust bowl idea more than 3 conclave.
I'll probably give it a test and see how it goes with 3 Jace/1 Elspeth, and 2 EE and 4 Misstep. Unless you think that 3 EE is really the best number in this situation.
I'm not going to defend Conclave as being amazing. It's really not. I just happen to like it better than anything else in its place currently. I'm contemplating trying Vesuva, also. Vesuva can be a manland or a dual, but if you have to make the choice early, it can backfire. It's kind of neat if a Junk Depths player passes with a Dark Depths on the board, though, as there's no way to respond to Vesuva copy-killing Dark Depths. In any case, I'm definitely not sold on Wasteland for a deck that always wants to resolve a 4-drop.
As for the other changes, I'm afraid to drop below 3 Engineered Explosives without any other way to get an artifact or enchantment off the board maindeck (Sometimes I wish I ran Cunning Wish.) Some games I even want four. The 2 for 1's it gets you are countless. I recently even got a 4 for 1, taking out a Tarmogoyf, a Pridemage, a Stoneforge, and a Jitte against Bant. In some matches, though, it's subpar. So your call there.
As for Jace #4 being Elspeth, I get it, but I don't agree with it. There are only two times I ever want any Jace I see to be an Elspeth:
1. If I already have an active Jace, and in this case I don't particularly care. I can Brainstorm extra Jaces away with the current Jace.
2. If Pithing Needle is on Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Part of my Jace/Elspeth split is my lack of a fourth Jace at the moment. I've also always liked Elspeth, and if I don't play conclave then the jump ability can make some situations a little easier. Without humility I can see her being a bit underwhelming, but I still like what she does. I like the idea of vesuva, maybe going vesuva/conclave/dust bowl could be a good idea or having multiple vesuva.