[Deck] Solidarity

Thanks guys for your words and comments, i'll try to go part by part:

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Nice tournament report dude. Sounds like the deck shat on you a little for those 2 losses. 19 lands is a good number, maybe try 20?

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I found 19 a real good number, clearly better than 18 and just a bit better than 20. Almost never i lost a land drop. If we run 20, we can spend cantrips, specially impulse, on getting spells instead of lands but i think that it's a matter a taste and playstile. Now i choose 19.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

As for the game 3, I'd think that you'd be playing more Mindbreak Traps in your board. They are fantastic against a control player, especially since most control players board in stuff like Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. Further its a great way to blank all their counters, something FoW isn't capable of. Honestly, when I'm playing against control I board out my 2 FoW's. They just aren't useful when you are losing 2 cards to their Spell Pierce or FoW. Its better to do something like respond to their FoW with another High Tide, and then try to bait out as many counters as you can that way you can get rid of all of them with one card. Would you rather play 2 FoW at the expense of 4 cards of your hand or play Mindbreak Trap?

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I'll be honest, before the tournament i had 3 traps in the board but i wanted to test disrupt because again merfolks and control deck gave me better results. Another cards i want to test is Divert as a 2 of. Next time maybe. Trap is awesome for that match up, if disrupt would has been trap probably i'd had won that game. I think i will take it back to my board.
If you read my list, the side has plenty of "utility" cards, i mean, cards that are wished in special cases: dismember, black trap, extraction, hibernation, rebuild and so on. Maybe we could determinate a "structured side" with less silver bullets.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Are you finding Remand and Snapcaster to be redundant? Both facilitate the BF x2 trick so do you really want to be playing 6 of them. Snap might be a decent option if you wanted to replace them, as it, like Remand, has an early game application as well as an interaction with Snapcaster.

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No, never. Remand is pretty good here i'd never run solidarity without him but yes without snapcaster. This mage is a good upgrade for the deck but it's rarely determinant, i think it was once during the tournament.
Mover over, i 'm thinkng on trying a verison "old school" with a couple of Peer Through Dephts, keeping repeal or exchanging it with disrupt. On my list this would be:

-3 Mage
-1 C. Wish

+2 PtD
+2 Flash of Insight

Another card that came to mind is cryptic command but here i'm really not sure.

I ran cryptic command and it is a nice toolbox card; but too often I just wished I had something cheaper to use. This is old school tech that was replaced for very sound reasons IMHO.

In regard to +2 Flash of Insight; I would suggest only getting +1 FoI for the deck as you will rarely if ever need it in hand.

In regard to the Snapcaster Mages. I have found them so good to re-cast Hightide that I will not be leaving home without them for a very long time. They are obviously great for Remand as well; but they are just so diverse that I think they simply outshine things like Cryptic Command. I don't rely on them ever staying on the board though, so Snap in the Sideboard is a card that I find up to the pilot and not a must have. In fact that might be a slot to add another Trap to you list.

If I were to alter your list (which I really do like a lot). I would simply do this.
-1 Cunning Wish
+1 Flash of Insight or Peer Through Depths, which ever you like more (PtD for me).

Just putting it out there, and I will be testing my version tonight, so I hope to have as much success as you had.

Cant wait for your tournament report!!!

This was a the other weekend, so I may get somethings wrong.
Wento to a Tournament with the same decklist as before.
5 rounds, just swiss. 22 people.

R1 - Maverick
G1 – I keep Land, 2 Brainstorms, Snapcaster, Reset, High Tide, FoW. I go second, draw, play land. Next turn I Brainstorm, and don’t find land. Next turn I brainstorm, and don’t find land. I FoW a Jitte, and he has no gas, drawing just lands. I discard twice, before finding a land. Then I draw the 3rd land, and go for: HT, Reset, Reset, Impulse, BF, Remand, Bf, Snapcaster, BF. Luckly he doesen’t have Progenitus too.

G2 – I FoW a T2 Cannonist, then he plays Rule of Lay turn 4. I can’t get it out and he beats me fast.

G3 – He play a Cannonist, which I Remand. Then, with 3 mana open, he passes. I don’t crack my Fectches. He plays the little birs. I crack 2 Fetches in response. He plays Cannonist. I Remand. When he tries to cast it again, I go off in response. (There was a Tegg on the table. Don’t remember when it came down, but it did nothing against me)

Round 2 – Deck with 3 Snare, 4 Daze, 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection, 4 Stifle, 4 Cunning Wish, with more counters on the side.

G1 – He plays Quirion Dryad T2, and star beating me. When I try to go off (T6 I guess) he has 4 counters, and I can only Mill33 cards…

G2 – He plays guys T2 and T3. APeek during the game shows me 2 Daze, 2 Sifle, 1 Misdirection. When I try to go off, 3 turns later, he had drawn Spell Snare, FoW and a blue card. I could have played better this one. Don’t know…

Round 3 –Burn
Game 1 – He wins the roll, but has only a T5 kill due to a remand. I go off T4 easily.
Game 2 – I draw my 2 Disrupts, that counter 2 burns. Even hardcast FoW at one point. But is really difficult to go off. When I do, I was at 2 life and with 0 High Tides. I lead with Turnabout, leaving 2 open for Reset in case he tries to burn me. I Meditate., then Reset. The Meditate, Then Reset, them Impulse, then Brainstorm, finding High Tide. The I have enouth to kill him and Remand his spells.

Round 4 – UW Stoneblade

G1 - I lead, and he Stoneforges for Sword, equips and swing. I try to go off then (should have waited 1 more turn), and he has Leak, and 2 FoW . In the end I can only some cards, and cant get back in the game.

G2 – He plays super slowly, and I don’t call a judge. Whith 6 lands, I cast Tide. He Leaks. I Reset. He Snares. I Reset. He Pierces. I Brainstorm and FoW. The last card in his hand is another Snare. Some turns later he plays Jace, then Stoneforge. After stone, I make some magics, and mill him for 15. Sword and Batter go to his graveyard. Next turn Time is called, and I get to mill him on the Turn 3, giving that he would kill me on turn 5.

Rund 5 – GW Maverick
G1 – Turn 3 or 4 I cunning Wish for Brain Freeze (he has Tegg). Then next one I High Tide, Reset, Brain Freeze, Brain Freeze, Brain Freeze. He had cast a spell, so that was enough.

G2 – I peek him on the beginning. He has Tegg, Relicary and lands, with Mom into play. He plays Tegg. With 3 lands he passes. I look at my fetchlands, and pass beck. He plays Bird, I BS and crack fetch. When I’m at 10 he is swinging for 8. I try to go off before dmg (mistake) Meditate finds me 4 lands, and the Brainstorm that followed found me 3. I can only mill him for half his deck and Play Snapcaster. Resolves. I target Brain Freeze. Resolve. I cast Brain Freeze (he could have removed it with Ooze, and I’d have lost). I block Tegg with snapcaster (mistake) because he could pump twice the Ooze. Had he more mana, I’d be dead and not even realize it. If he had Progenitus I’d be screwed too.
3-1-1
Could have won against Stoneblade and went better. Well…

This deck is awesome, and I really enjoy playing it. It’s great against Tegg, which is making me play it before Time Spiral.
Don’t know what to change on the list. Snapcasters were awesome, but they are showing again how Grave hate has improved against us.
I need a FoI on the list too. It’ just that awesome.

Nice report ScatmanX.

I have to advocate Mindbreak Trap again. You encountered several instances of +3 countermagic. FoW's, Disrupts, and Remands simply can't deal with that kind of hand. Honestly, that kind of countermagic protects you while you are setting up; its subpar at best when protecting your own combo against a control player. You need Mindbreak Trap for these situations.

Further, keep in mind that Spiral Tide tends to see a lot more play than Solidarity. Stack manipulation tricks are awesome when your opponent unknowingly plays right into your Mindbreak Trap.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Nice report ScatmanX.

I have to advocate Mindbreak Trap again. You encountered several instances of +3 countermagic. FoW's, Disrupts, and Remands simply can't deal with that kind of hand. Honestly, that kind of countermagic protects you while you are setting up; its subpar at best when protecting your own combo against a control player. You need Mindbreak Trap for these situations.

Further, keep in mind that Spiral Tide tends to see a lot more play than Solidarity. Stack manipulation tricks are awesome when your opponent unknowingly plays right into your Mindbreak Trap.

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I have to agree. Against the hate-players, I tossed a FoW to the bottom of my library with Impulse, because I could not handle the card disadvantage of it. Had it been Trap, I'd have certainly got it.
The SB should have 2-3 copies of that card.

Alternately, I find Flusterstorm to be a more versatile sideboard slot. It's not as much of a sure-thing against multiple counterspells like Mindbreak trap would be, but it more than makes up for it by being great against things like discard and burn spells, as well as having most of the functionality of Mindbreak Trap when you need it. It's also nice that it's basically uncounterable, which will come up on occasion if you're building up the stack and they happen to have a 4th counterspell. Not unheard of post-board.

@ScatmanX: congrats on your standing and going off with 3 lands successfully (I don't get that one often). I went 3-0 at the local on Legacy Night using my version of Solidarity. I faced R/B Goblins (w-l-w), TES (w-l-w), and then Maverick (w-w).

I run 1 Trap and 2 Flusterstorm in the SB... But I wish I had room for a couple Divert maindeck to use vs Discard Packages. Maybe I should cut a FoW and something else -- ideas, comments welcome --.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by SupREME-10

@ScatmanX: congrats on your standing and going off with 3 lands successfully (I don't get that one often). I went 3-0 at the local on Legacy Night using my version of Solidarity. I faced R/B Goblins (w-l-w), TES (w-l-w), and then Maverick (w-w).

I run 1 Trap and 2 Flusterstorm in the SB... But I wish I had room for a couple Divert maindeck to use vs Discard Packages. Maybe I should cut a FoW and something else -- ideas, comments welcome --.

Cheers

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I arrived to the conclussion that cards like disrupt, divert MD which have specific purposes, finally, result a bit unconfortable. Permanents management cards such as repeal, or even cryptic command resulted to me as multipurpose cards in almost every match up.

@ScatmanX: What was your list for the recent tourney?

@SupREME-10: What list do you run?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Wento to a Tournament with the same decklist as before.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

11 Islands
7 Fetches

4 High Tide
4 Reset
2 Turnabout

4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Impulse
3 Peer Trough Depths

3 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
2 Snapcaster Mage.
2 Repeal
2 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
4 Pact of Negation

SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disrupt
2 Snap
2 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

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Served. I strongly recomend rebuild instead of hurkyl's recall...

If you had Force of Will, then it can't be the same list, since this one has Pact of Negation in it.

A topic for discussion: has the printing of Snapcaster Mage changed your valuation of Pact of Negation? The 0cc gives you the ability to rebuy Pact for super cheap, as opposed to Force of Will which will always cost 7 off of a Snapcaster Mage.

Force of Will is actually a weak card in terms of protecting your combo. Granted, its cheap in terms of mana, but it costs 2 cards and thats huge when you are trying to go off through a countermagic wall. Force of Will is really meant to counter threats that would kill you before your combo turn. Pact of Negation is purely a counterspell for protecting the combo turn.

Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap are best forms of protection for the actual combo turn.

I'd say Pact is a budget FoW.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Force of Will is actually a weak card in terms of protecting your combo. Granted, its cheap in terms of mana, but it costs 2 cards and thats huge when you are trying to go off through a countermagic wall. Force of Will is really meant to counter threats that would kill you before your combo turn. Pact of Negation is purely a counterspell for protecting the combo turn.

Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap are best forms of protection for the actual combo turn.

I'd say Pact is a budget FoW.

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I agree with all of that, though I don't think that it follows that Pact is a budget Force of Will, since as you pointed out, they do very different things in this deck.

I bring up the discussion because a friend of mine is playing a very fast version of this deck (4 Snaps, 4 Snapcaster Mage, 4 Pact of Negation, 0 Force of Will, 17 lands) that doesn't try to take control of the game at all, but rather, just function as a pure combo deck. In his build, Pact of Negation is really good at protecting the combo from Counterspells, protecting Snapcaster Mages from burn in response to the Snap, etc. I think it probably sacrifices some of it's game against other combo decks (the only matchup where you absolutely NEED to have Force of Will), and becomes more all-in vs. decks with Counterspells, but gains some percentage points against faster aggro decks since you have 4 Snap main. He also tends to kill most of the time with Blue Sun's Zenith, since having that many Snapcaster Mages really really (really) increases the amount of mana you can make.

Now, "very fast" is still all relative; we're still talking about a High Tide deck which means that making land drops is extremely important. But he's gotten a handful of turn 2 kills, which is really rather impressive, and the fundamental turn is hovering right around 3, rather than the 4 that it's at in a more traditional Solidarity build. It's certainly not perfect, as relying on Snap can easily backfire, given that every deck in the format plays removal main, but I think it's an interesting direction to potentially take the deck.

But again, the whole point is, in that deck, 4 Pact of Negation, plus 3-4 Flusterstorm out of the sideboard, with Snapcaster Mages and Snaps, seems pretty strong against a lot of decks. Setting up multiple Pact triggers, then Meditating through your next few turns while they deck themselves, seems like pretty good synergy.

I can see that but this deck would need some way to drop extra lands on its combo turn to consistently go off on turn 2/3. I think its better suited as a turn 4 combo deck, with the play Cunning Wish --> High Tide making it rather consistent. Then again, I also advocate a green post-board plan with Tangle so you can actually compete with aggro decks.

Ghostly Flicker 2U

Instant
Exile two target artifacts, creatures and/or lands you control, then return those cards to the battlefield under your control.
Sometimes it's useful to take a break from existence.
Illus. Raymond Swanland #57/244

A new untap effect. Only ever nets you one mana (so worse than Snap) but is unconditional, and still sets up Snapcaster shenanigans (while not being wasted if they bolt your Snapcaster).

Not something that I see being used at the moment, but worth keeping an eye on, especially if we get more ETB effects.

@ Olesch, here is the list that I am using (hasn't changed)
Maindeck
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Cunning Wish
1 x Flash of Insight
4 x Force of Will
3 x High Tide
3 x Impulse
3 x Meditate
3 x Opt
2 x Peer Through Depths
3 x Remand
2 x Repeal
4 x Reset
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Brain Freeze
2 x Turnabout
2 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
12 x Island

Sideboard
1 x Ravenous Trap
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Blue Sun's Zenith
1 x Brain Freeze
1 x Echoing Truth
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Hibernation
1 x High Tide
1 x Meditate
1 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Rebuild
1 x Snap
1 x Wipe Away


I know it is not anything new or groundbreaking; but I have liked it so far; although I haven't played it much in the past month. I wonder if we are getting anything super good in the new set, as I did see some serious potential cards for other decks.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Ghostly Flicker 2U

Instant
Exile two target artifacts, creatures and/or lands you control, then return those cards to the battlefield under your control.
Sometimes it's useful to take a break from existence.
Illus. Raymond Swanland #57/244

A new untap effect. Only ever nets you one mana (so worse than Snap) but is unconditional, and still sets up Snapcaster shenanigans (while not being wasted if they bolt your Snapcaster).

Not something that I see being used at the moment, but worth keeping an eye on, especially if we get more ETB effects.

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If that "you control" were "target player control" this would have been great indeed!!

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

If that "you control" were "target player control" this would have been great indeed!!

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Well...could Toils of Night and Day be tested in the repeal slot¿?¿?
Nice card hu¿?