Re: All B/R update speculation.
My prediction for June 20th -
Unban:
Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Ban:
none
Watch list:
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Reasoning:
Earthcraft enables some tier 2 combo decks, which is fine considering there needs to be some shake up against the established Mid-range/Aggro Control trinity we had established for the first part of this year. It could also give Show & Tell decks some competition which I'm fine with.
Mind Twist is innocuous. It's a fine card against control too.
Nothing is screaming to be dominating that can't be answered by metagaming right now. Let's keep that going.
Watch list for possible degeneracy. Too soon to tell with only ~3 weeks of Griselbrand being out.
Discuss.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
True. Griselbrand is very strong. What do you expect? Bargain is still just really really broken. On the other hand it's a new card and I feel people have yet to adapt to the demon. The Metagame will change and if GB is as unfair as people tend to say we'll see it when everyone plays a Deck with 4 copies. I mean it's still somewhat random. Either Emrakul or Griselbrand pokes you in the eye. Is losing your board okay, but him drawing 7 is not? I really don't think that's true.
Sneak and Show is a great deck. Not a doubt, but so is Delver RU(G) and UW has a comeback, too. The Metagame is diverse and I think that's healthy. We'll see what happens. And in the meantime - tune your lists to beat the demon! :)
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
- Ok, so one anecdote from years ago is what you have? It's not enough to just say it's a "stupid broken card". What decks would it actually cause the meta to be unhealthy? If it was as broken as you claim, making Solidarity a DTB would be a given.
It's just an anecdote, not trying to prove a point with it and I said it really doesn't mean shit. I've also played with Frantic Search quite a bit in Pauper before it was banned and I played quite a bit with an Urza's Block Replenish deck. I'd say I have as much experience casting Frantic Search as anyone. Meanwhile have you ever cast Frantic Search even once? The card is obviously stupid broken from the jump, seriously you should test it. It just lets you tear through your deck and the only possible scenario where it's not 100% broken is your imaginary format where every game effectively ends turn 3 without heavy disruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
- You can only stack goblins. You have to create a deck with only goblins, which severely limits its power and ability to be broken.
- A broken card in a shitty deck is going to just result in a good deck within the context of Goblins.
- So what if you can Food Chain? Turn 3 kills are not that uncommon in Legacy.
- The comparison between Recruiter and Workshop is extremely awful. Workshop has FAR many more uses than stacking Goblins in your deck.
It's not that it's a turn 3 kill with the combo. It's that even without the combo you are still a top tier aggro deck and the combo is a very solid plan B. Any deck that can't deal with Food Chain is just going to get crushed and any deck that can't deal with a possibly uncounterable turn 2 Recruiter stacking your deck is going to get crushed. If you go for a turn 3 win with most decks and I stop your combo you have to recover, instead here you are still playing a really good aggro deck. If I put up a superior board position early vs. most aggro decks I'm in a commanding lead, here you can just topdeck a Food Chain and have a blow out randomly a lot of times (think Goblin Matron + Recruiter + Ringleader and Food Chain, pretty good odds you are going to be able to pull some whacky shit).
Lot's of decks can deal with Goblins attacking, lots of decks can deal with Food Chain type combos, not a lot of decks can deal with both at the same time when it's super easy to stack your deck. Recruiter absolutely pushes Goblins to another level entirely. Goblins with and without Recruiter are 2 completely different decks. It's like comparing Vine-Madness with Survival to w/o Survival, there is no comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
- I don't think your argument of "found in 90% of decks" is a good one considering that Brainstorm is very rampant. Cards seeing lots of play doesn't make them ban worthy. Otherwise, every staple that saw too much play would be up for bans.
Brainstorm requires blue mana, Misstep went in pretty much everything except a few combo decks, and Maverick. I was fine with the card personally and I didn't want to see it banned, but a card that is practically an auto-include in every non-combo deck regardless of color is kind of stupid in retrospect.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Unban in this order:
Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Land Tax
Mind's Desire
Goblin Recruiter
Mystical Tutor
Survival of the Fittest
Mental Misstep
MMS arguably caused more warping than SotF. Also, there are now better yard hate cards to handle parts of the old combo for the price of 2 life.
I agree with this. It's a bit risky but throwing all these sharks in one tank is kinda fucking awesome. I think Frantic Search is sorta dangerous but much less so than something like Gush, which is obscene. I'd add in Worldgorger Dragon just because it's slow and vulnerable to about every piece of disruption. This proposal is preferable to the boring-ness that is Legacy currently. Seriously, who has been excited to bust out their Legacy decks in the last year or more? Not I.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
It's just an anecdote, not trying to prove a point with it and I said it really doesn't mean shit. I've also played with Frantic Search quite a bit in Pauper before it was banned and I played quite a bit with an Urza's Block Replenish deck. I'd say I have as much experience casting Frantic Search as anyone. Meanwhile have you ever cast Frantic Search even once? The card is obviously stupid broken from the jump, seriously you should test it. It just lets you tear through your deck and the only possible scenario where it's not 100% broken is your imaginary format where every game effectively ends turn 3 without heavy disruption.
- Do we not have at least half of that in our format? Sneak and Show, TES, and Dredge?
Quote:
It's not that it's a turn 3 kill with the combo. It's that even without the combo you are still a top tier aggro deck and the combo is a very solid plan B. Any deck that can't deal with Food Chain is just going to get crushed and any deck that can't deal with a possibly uncounterable turn 2 Recruiter stacking your deck is going to get crushed. If you go for a turn 3 win with most decks and I stop your combo you have to recover, instead here you are still playing a really good aggro deck. If I put up a superior board position early vs. most aggro decks I'm in a commanding lead, here you can just topdeck a Food Chain and have a blow out randomly a lot of times (think Goblin Matron + Recruiter + Ringleader and Food Chain, pretty good odds you are going to be able to pull some whacky shit).
Lot's of decks can deal with Goblins attacking, lots of decks can deal with Food Chain type combos, not a lot of decks can deal with both at the same time when it's super easy to stack your deck. Recruiter absolutely pushes Goblins to another level entirely. Goblins with and without Recruiter are 2 completely different decks. It's like comparing Vine-Madness with Survival to w/o Survival, there is no comparison.
- I still don't think it's as powerful as you claim it to be. 5 years ago I wouldn't question it, but I think we have had enough of a power creep to at least humor it.
Quote:
Brainstorm requires blue mana, Misstep went in pretty much everything except a few combo decks, and Maverick. I was fine with the card personally and I didn't want to see it banned, but a card that is practically an auto-include in every non-combo deck regardless of color is kind of stupid in retrospect.
- The fact that it was an auto-include isn't what made it broken. It was the fact that it warped the meta heavily towards aggro-control decks and utterly snuffed out arch-types (storm) and even crippled some others to a lesser extent (dredge). Being an auto-include isn't enough: it was the fact that it was an auto-include in ANY deck AND it heavily warped that caused it to get banned. I could see it not ever being unbanned, but since there were some other combo-ish cards that were getting unbanned (mystical tutor), my belief was to unban MMS so to keep those cards in check.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Oh how I would like to see Frantic Search unbanned so that I can crush face with a candleless Time Spiral until people cry for a ban again :cool:
Re: All B/R update speculation.
-Predictions-
Unbanned: Earthcraft
Banned: Either Brainstorm or Show and Tell
I don't think that any card on the B/R list will come off for Legacy that's blue and is a combo-piece or enabler, which is good.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Show and Tell won't be banned. There are no reasons yet for it to be banned. It's only broken for those who still play with monoW wheenie... or monoG ramp..whatever
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Show and Tell won't be banned, Griselbrand won't be banned, Brainstorm won't be banned. I think they will take it easier with the bans going forward. Brainstorm was on the grilling pan last December and if passed the test then I believe these guys have decided to be more careful with Legacy.
By the way, why would they ban Brainstorm in this meta? Show and Tell decks can operate pretty well with Ponder and Preordain and taking Brainstorm out of the equation is just weakening the blue decks which keep those combo decks in check.
If they ban anything at this point I think it'll be like the Mystical Tutor ban, based on a baseless dislike. If that makes any sense..
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Philipp802
Show and Tell won't be banned. There are no reasons yet for it to be banned. It's only broken for those who still play with monoW wheenie... or monoG ramp..whatever
Show and Tell will be banned ( at a time ). There are reasons to ban it. You being in possession of 4 copies is not a reason to not ban it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Here's why Griselbrand won't ever get banned (In Legacy. I make no promises about Commander), regardless of whether or not S&T does.
Wizards wants to print big legendary dudes that make people go "Holy fucking cock on the moon, I have to go buy a case of this set." They love the idea of printing a card so amazingly powerful that the very name of it strikes fear into the heart of magic players. Griselbrand is this guy.
Griselbrand, like so many bonkers guys before him (Progenitus, Emrakul, etc.) has one drawback - Most games end before they can be hardcasted. So you have to cheat them into play, one way or another.
For the most part, Wizards stops the enabler, and it's the right call. Who doesn't want more amazingly awesome demons and angels and dragons in magic? They began adding innocuous little abilities onto the Colossi, biggest Eldrazi, and Progenitus to prevent them from being Reanimated. Griselbrand doesn't have this, which makes him a little scary. He's a behemoth with Animate Dead, Exhume, Shallow Grave, Goryo's Vengeance, etc. But Reanimation's always stoppable. And until Griselbrand, it didn't get the really scary shit, like Blightsteel/Emrakul/Progenitus.
And if you say he's the reason Show and Tell's busted, I say no. Show and Tell will be like, "Aw. Bye Griselbrand. You've already been replaced." And go on like nothing ever happened. Emrakul exists. Progenitus exists. Hive Mind exists. Dream Halls exists. And every set or two, something else will also exist that makes people go back to saying "How can I cheat this card into play?"
As long as there are cards being printed every set that makes people ask "How can I cheat this card into play?", Show and Tell will continue to grow and grow and grow in power.
Griselbrand won't. He's as good as he's going to become for a long, long time.
There aren't going to be better ways to cheat him into play than what there already are for a LONG time. Flash was banned for this reason (And thank God. Can you imagine Flash/Griselbrand?), and now most "Cheat into play" strategies revolve around Reanimation and/or Show and Tell, with the occasional splashing of Kuldotha Forgemaster or Pattern/Natural Order.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I think it would be hilarious if every 4 months or so each year, WotC unbanned Flash in Legacy just to troll us and see what would happen if it were Legal for say, a month or so. Then, after much lulz were had, ban it before a big SCG Legacy event. They could call the yearly event "Flash Month!" and there would be prizes for the most broken Flash build.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
If this was to happen, they would have to train the judge staff to provide entertainment for 99% of the players while waiting 49 minutes for the only two players not playing Flash to finish their match. Most likely Goblins and some kind of Junk.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Here's why Griselbrand won't ever get banned (In Legacy. I make no promises about Commander), regardless of whether or not S&T does.
Wizards wants to print big legendary dudes that make people go "Holy fucking cock on the moon, I have to go buy a case of this set." They love the idea of printing a card so amazingly powerful that the very name of it strikes fear into the heart of magic players. Griselbrand is this guy.
Griselbrand, like so many bonkers guys before him (Progenitus, Emrakul, etc.) has one drawback - Most games end before they can be hardcasted. So you have to cheat them into play, one way or another.
For the most part, Wizards stops the enabler, and it's the right call. Who doesn't want more amazingly awesome demons and angels and dragons in magic? They began adding innocuous little abilities onto the Colossi, biggest Eldrazi, and Progenitus to prevent them from being Reanimated. Griselbrand doesn't have this, which makes him a little scary. He's a behemoth with Animate Dead, Exhume, Shallow Grave, Goryo's Vengeance, etc. But Reanimation's always stoppable. And until Griselbrand, it didn't get the really scary shit, like Blightsteel/Emrakul/Progenitus.
And if you say he's the reason Show and Tell's busted, I say no. Show and Tell will be like, "Aw. Bye Griselbrand. You've already been replaced." And go on like nothing ever happened. Emrakul exists. Progenitus exists. Hive Mind exists. Dream Halls exists. And every set or two, something else will also exist that makes people go back to saying "How can I cheat this card into play?"
As long as there are cards being printed every set that makes people ask "How can I cheat this card into play?", Show and Tell will continue to grow and grow and grow in power.
Griselbrand won't. He's as good as he's going to become for a long, long time.
There aren't going to be better ways to cheat him into play than what there already are for a LONG time. Flash was banned for this reason (And thank God. Can you imagine Flash/Griselbrand?), and now most "Cheat into play" strategies revolve around Reanimation and/or Show and Tell, with the occasional splashing of Kuldotha Forgemaster or Pattern/Natural Order.
And here's the other point of view.
Show and Tell has, regardless of how many feel about it, essentially become a "pillar" of this format. It fills the exact role that cards like Tinker and Oath of Druids fill in Vintage but at a reduced power level. It has come to make up a little under half the combo decks in legacy. And yet, to this point, time and time again, it has been kept down by the so called "fair" decks. Show and Tell progenitus, Show and Tell Dream Halls, Show and Tell Hive Mind, Show and tell Emrakul. All of these have proven that the deck, while good, is not an oppressive force in this format.
Then we look at Griselbrand. Looking at him as simply another "good fatty" omits over half of his power. Drawing cards is probably the single best ability in this game, and drawing 7 cards for 7 life is a Bargain. While not quite at the power level of Yawgmoth's Bargain, it does have 2 distinct advantages, and 1 disadvantage.
The first advantage is the ease at which it can be cheated into play. As a creature there are a myriad of options that exist, enchantments are much more limited in that respect. Further, it has a 7/7 flying lifelink body. That is by no means weak, and is often enough to race an opponent who doesn't have removal at hand just by itself. On top of that, you can buy 7 new cards with each successful swing, self interaction at it's finest. He fuels his own draw engine if the opponent can't respond, or is too overwhelmed by card advantage. His ability is also extremely difficult to interact with.
The only disadvantage comes with being open to creature removal, however being black and 7/7 that is mitigated quite a bit. Not hit by the likes of Snuff out, or Doom Blade, he is likewise out of range of all burn. Only the ubiquitous Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile really deal with him. Of course being legendary does leave him open to being destroyed by clones. It is also important to note that removal doesn't actually prevent you from getting value from his ability.
The point being, that he fills more than just 1 purpose in decks looking to drop huge fat, and swing for the win. He completely alters the dynamics of the match. Instead of "Answer my dude now or die" it becomes, "Answer my dude, and my huge grip of cards in hand, and you'll probably die anyway." He wins games that those decks have no business winning.
So what happens if you ban show and Tell, and find he's still too good with sneak attack, or Reanimator, or In Dredge, or with Pattern of Rebirth? He's already being used in Sneak Show, Reanimator and Dredge, and even having storm type decks built around him. Sometimes, while things don't look it, they do end up being too powerful in a non-expected way. And that's what I think Griselbrand could be, not just 7 cards for 7 life, but a 7 card self fulfilling draw engine with built in evasion and a 3 turn clock.
With that said, I despise knee jerk reactions. Let the format alone for several months time, and see how everything fares.
Also a note about what Wizard of the Coast wants. Huge dudes, with ridiculous abilities may be alright for the Standard and modern formats, but that just doesn't work in legacy. This is an eternal format, and banning old cards because you don't have the restraint to make balanced cards in this format doesn't fly with a lot of people.
If it comes down to Griselbrand who makes a lot of already established decks better, or Show and Tell, which is the basis of at least 3 Established decks, I would choose to keep Show and Tell any day of the week. They may not be the most fun decks to play against, nor are they difficult to play, but those are not valid reasons for removing a card from the Eternal formats.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shion
If it comes down to Vengevine who makes a lot of already established decks better, or Survival of the Fittest, which is the basis of at least 3 Established decks, I would choose to keep Survival of the Fittest any day of the week. They may not be the most fun decks to play against, nor are they difficult to play, but those are not valid reasons for removing a card from the Eternal formats.
- I'm not trying to be an ass, but history is literally repeating itself.
Creature over non-creature? WoTC chooses the non-creature by merit that creatures are FAR easier to deal with. +1 Show and Tell.
Broken yet restricted over an enabler? WotC is going to choose the enabler. +1 Show and Tell.
Powerful card over a card that mimics the power level of a card in Vintage (since you compared Show and Tell to Oath)? WotC does not like letting Vintage lite card run around if they push the power level too far. +1 Show and Tell.
A card that is dependent on other cards to break or a card that gets stronger with newer sets? The card that grows in power will get axed. +1 Show and Tell.
If either card is going to get banned, it's going to be Show and Tell. Don't deny that since it's very obvious despite the well made arguments you have made.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
- Do we not have at least half of that in our format? Sneak and Show, TES, and Dredge?
No we don't. Half the decks in the format don't effectively end the game by turn 3. That is 3 decks that don't represent half the format by any means. Also those 3 decks have solutions all of which are slightly different. If you unban 3 more combo enablers which are stronger overall than those decks you just have the same situation that ruined Extended where there are more combo decks than available spots for answers. You stretch everything too thin and the format becomes combo vs. blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
- I still don't think it's as powerful as you claim it to be. 5 years ago I wouldn't question it, but I think we have had enough of a power creep to at least humor it.
I get the allure, but you don't want decks that are really good aggro decks with really good combos included. It just pushes every other aggro deck out of the format and makes everyone run focused hate for red dudes or a faster combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
- The fact that it was an auto-include isn't what made it broken. It was the fact that it warped the meta heavily towards aggro-control decks and utterly snuffed out arch-types (storm) and even crippled some others to a lesser extent (dredge). Being an auto-include isn't enough: it was the fact that it was an auto-include in ANY deck AND it heavily warped that caused it to get banned. I could see it not ever being unbanned, but since there were some other combo-ish cards that were getting unbanned (mystical tutor), my belief was to unban MMS so to keep those cards in check.
Yeah I mean one mistake deserves another but i don't particularly see the problem with the current meta except that everyone hasn't adapted to Show and Tell quite yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erdvermampfa
Show and Tell will be banned ( at a time ). There are reasons to ban it. You being in possession of 4 copies is not a reason to not ban it.
Spoken like a true scrub. Just because you don't like losing to Show and Tell and you don't own them doesn't mean they should be banned. I hate Show and Tell as much as anyone. I feel like the card rewards idiots and lets people get significantly outplayed then just derp into a win randomly. At the same time a lot of people play the card and enjoy it. A card should only be banned if it is truly broken, not because it causes butt hurt to lose to it and happens to be really good. It is far too early to call for a Show/Tell banning, so stop being a hater. The price of a play set of S&Ts is less than half the cost of the land base for the deck, get over yourself.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Show and Tell doesn't have to be banned, because it isn't too powerful by itself, doesn't allow a deck that's too powerful to exist and doesn't make any relevant decks nonviable. However, I think it will be banned sooner or later anyway, because people will keep complaining about it.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
omg you guise SnT doesn't even do anything without a creater why would you ban something that needs a creater does you wants only the bad cards left for leagcy? i mean what a fack????
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Nothing wrong with SnT to be a pillar.
If you ban SnT then Maverick will be #1 again and we just get complaints about another card.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I think that Temporal Mastery will be banned, they just didn't have the guts to emergency ban it in Legacy. Reforge the soul will be banned also, people realize how good it is and Diminishing Returns gets banned for being 1 mana cheaper and in the best color of magic.
I don't really have any reason or backup for my claims, but just ask DragoFireheart, he'll give you the facts on how broken these miracles are. :wink:
